People still complain about the disproportiate number of lower-class and minorities that were in Vietnam. They were there because of a draft. Why would a draft supposedly "equal" it out this time when it didn't before? I don't get the logic.

Secondly, it is a volunteer military, nobody forced anyone to join. The reason some minorities join is to better their life through the training and pay of the military. They have to weigh those benefits with the prospect of giving their lives and make a decision. Freedom of choice makes things equal, no matter the statistics or anything else.

Pat Tillman is being hailed as a hero not only because he lost his life but because he also volunteered for duty in Afghanistan, giving up a lucrative career in football to do so.

And, to me, any military personnel who lose their lives in battle are heroes. Dying for any "job" is above and beyond the call of duty. They may have voluntarily signed up for the military, but losing their lives for their country automatically qualifies them as heroes.

I was rather surprised by the attention paid to this poor fellow, as it seemed disproportionate to . . .

Ah! It's because he chose to risk his life for Country instead of Money.

Quentin Tarantino, in the liner notes to the Johnny Cash compilation "Murder", called America "a country that thinks it's divided along racial lines when it's really divided along economic lines . . ."

Of course, QT is both rich and white, so who knows?

Nah, it's because he was an athlete. Anyone else would be a nameless victim. THAT is what should be taken issue with.

Well, Tom Johnson, you can write a blog entry saying that. But, be prepared to be lambasted by your fellows on the Right if you do. One is supposed to lead cheerleading for Pat Tillman or else. I wrote about the class and race issue because it is so obvious if you pay attention to how society operates. Besides, I'm not a football fan.

Another aspect of this situation is it is not isolated. Coming so soon after the Pfc.Jessica Lynch fiasco, it is fairly easy to tell something is awry. White, middle-class Americans want heroes that fit a certain mold, so they create them. Tillman did nothing more than Watersbey did, yet people will never hear of Watersbey because he is the 'wrong' class and color. And, as Tom points out, was not a football player.

K needs to reread what I said about 'volunteering.' Studies show minorities and working class whites go into the service becauese they are unable to get work in the civilian workplace. They are 'volunteering' in the same sense that both beggars and billionaires can 'volunteer' to sleep under bridges. One group has a choice, the other doesn't. Middle-class white guys go into the military for a fling at fun and adventure. They know they have beter options in the civilian marketplace. The corrective is to end discrimination in the civilian workforce, not to detail the working-class and minority to the low-paying, dead end jobs in the military.

An interesting aspect of K's argument is that it is also a good one for slavery. Back then African-Americans were fully employed.

The new draft, which will not occur until we get rid of Shrub, would need controls to make sure proportionality does occur. The similarity between the old, segregated military and the current integrated one in assigning minorites to low tier jobs with little or no transferability to the civilian life needs to be corrected, too.

If the draft is reinstated -- and I hope it isn't -- the military will have to get rid of all the exclusions and deferments that benefited the middle and upper-class in the past. Example: college. Why should someone who has the means to go to school full-time be exempt from the draft when someone who can't afford to be a full-time student has to go serve?

I also think women should have to register next time around, too.

Easy for me to say, I suppose, since I'm too old to be drafted and my kids are way too young ....

College students are exempted for solid economimc reasons. Do I really have to explain them?

Yes, you do. Because that same policy exempts the wealthier draft-agees from something the poorer draft-agees can't easily escape.

The draft should apply to everyone equally and no exemptions should be made [except if you're physically incapable of handling battle]. Otherwise, poorer Americans end up fighting our wars so that wealthier ones can skip out. And that affects the racial make-up of the armed forces, as well.

bhw, the new bill, which as you see above, some Republican legislators are supporting, does not provide college exemptions. A person becomes eligible when a quarter or semester ends or when he or she graduates if a senior. The last link in my entry, at 'reinstating,' looks at the bill by applying it to a college. More than half of the students would become eligible for military service.

I believe that young reactionaries should be on the front lines of military service. Not only do they benefit from the inequities of society as mainly white, male and middle-class, they are the loudest cheerleaders when it comes to warmongering. Let the RJ Elliotts and Tom Mapps of the America put their bodies where their mouths are -- in Iraq or wherever bloodletting is occurring. Why should the little boy in that picture become fatherless while they sit on their behinds screaming support for an unjust war? Their hypocrisy is such they will never enlist on their own. A draft will do it for them.

I think it is unfair to classify this is an over-exposed "jessica lynch" story. Dude did more than any of us. Our intellectualism is swell and all, but unless every one of us vote is doesn't mean crap.

Also, regardless of whether he is getting unfair attention... he served. Clinton, Quayle, Bush... none of these guys served because of priveledge. I also respect John Kerry for speaking out against Vietnam because he DID serve... so you know he wasn't just talking out of his ass. I admit I have zero intention of joining to service to fight's Bush's follies around the world, but I respect those who give their lives for us. Even if it is a bullshit war.
Thanks,
Lono

Thank you for expanding on your views in regard to the situation, Lono.

[Admin: Comment deleted]

Amusing, but neither coherent, witty or note-worthy. I give it a 2.

Let's be generous, Nick. Rob almost spelled 'rubbish' correctly. We will make it a 2.5.

Sorry I don't police my writing on something like this. I'm doing three things at once.

Is that all you have?

Mac Diva's character and Phillip Winn share a lot of cyber-space. After reading numerous (more than 75) entries from Phillip and Mac Diva it's quiet clear that Phillip has too much time on his hands.

We have a few people writing for specific characters communicating in a third and fourth person.

Oh yeah Phillip. Did you know that there is a person named Phillip Winn listed on many search engines as CONVICTED FELON???

Not very flattering wouldn't you say. I think I'd change my name to something else.

You have no right to speak for blacks until you can prove that you are in fact black.

Can you elaborate on this? It sounds utterly ridiculous.

So no one should have spoken out against the treatment of Jews during WW2 if they weren't Jewish? So people can't speak out on hate crimes unless they were a victim of a hate crime themself? People can't speak out against racial profiling unless they've been pulled over by Deputy Skeeter? Makes no sense.

How's it going, Roger Ely? I knew who it was when I saw the address 'spy.net.' Remembered it from your pathetic efforts to sell me your 'services.' Part of your delusion that you are James Bond, eh?

In regard to your previous comment, no. You also botched 'shut' and your sentence structure stinks.

In regard to Phillip Winn, who I will write no brief for, I will say you are slandering him if he in fact has not a felon, which is most likely. You really have crossed the line.

Whether Rob is really Roger Ely or not (the inconclusive evidence suggests that he is), his comments were completely out of line. I would remove them, except that some of them are directed at me, and I don't hide criticism of myself, no matter how bizarre. I did delete one that was directed at someone other than me.

Regardless of his real identity (and again, he hails from a Sprint dialup link in Tennessee, just as Roger Ely did, but that could be a coincidence), "Rob" has been banned from posting comments here.

If it is indeed Roger, again, then I suspect he will keep turning up like a bad penny and wasting my time blocking him. I apologize to everyone in advance for his immature behavior.

P.S. MD is correct, I am (AFAIK) unrelated to the "Phillip D. Winn" that is a pardoned convicted felon and turns up in the first page of a Google search for my name, and I have never been convicted of a felony of any sort. My life is an open (but boring) book; even my home address is available on the net if you look hard enough, though the phone number is an old one.

Phillip,
Sprint? Tennessee? Sprint a possibility but I am far from Tennessee.

As for Rob he is on the same network. And affiliated with law enforcement.

Remember the e-mail where I told you that I tracked the origin of one of your posters (members)?

There's software out there that Web Root, Spy-Ware Killer and the rest can't sniff out. You know the kind used to trace the commings and goings of child porn, and child molesters.

You are not as smart as you think Phillip.

As for you Mac Diva I was only pulling your chain. Sell YOU my services? What a joke.

Since the first few e-mails with viruses attached to them had Phillips name on them, this web site became fair game.

I guess it is just chance that my name wolud also be forged with an attached virus and unsuccessfully sent to a German receipient.

Jews don't like Germans very well do they?

I guess it is just chance that my name wolud also be forged with an attached virus and unsuccessfully sent to a German receipient.

No, it wouldn't be by chance. Anybody with any knowledge of computers beyond that of playing Pong would know that a virus is called a virus because it replicates itself and sends itself out from your address book, which would list it as from you.

It is also common for spammers and virus's to send emails out with bogus 'from' addresses. People get spam from administrator@ourdomainhere.com all the time and complain to us, but the emails did not come from our server and there is no administrator email account. It's called a virus for a reason.

Idiot! I know a lot more than you would ever imagine. People like myself just like to act dumb and get reactions out of stupid monitor gazing geeks like you, mac and Phillip. The same way law enforcement fucks with people to shake them up.

As far as MacIdiot, there are more than enough people out there who thinks that you are some kind of screwed up fruit cake. Since Phillip takes all of this my stuff off of here, I am going to send all of the e-mails that Mac Diva sent me to various people. Me trying to sell my services to Mac??? Lol, lol. Bitch. I'll put it on a web page as well.

It looks like I'm getting what I want.

Does the thought of being tracked make your skin crawl? Sorry that you have to pay for the sins of your associate that sent those viruses with your name on them, and they didn't even work!!!

At least Phillip hasn't deleted my 293 comments on file.

People like myself just like to act dumb

So your intent here is to get revenge against someone you believe maliciously infected your computer with a virus? Geez, some of my email accounts get several dozen virus hits every single day.

If you are in law enforcement, you would turn over your proof of someone intentionally trying to infect your computer to the appropriate authorities, then act in a professional civil service manner and get the matter resolved.

Law enforcement might try to 'shake down' someone holding hostages, but this type of silliness is like someone trying to 'shake down' a jaywalker.

Shake down as in fucking with drug dealers and such just to get them rattled. Get it?

I never said that I was in law enforcement. Read damnit.

I was refering to two e-mail attachments sent with Phillips name on them which did not infect a computer.

There are a lot of things that you don't know about. Care to know the whole truth? You and everyone else can but Phillip won't allow it on here.

If you want to find my real origin do it the right way.

Each time that a person logs on using dial up they are assigned a user ID / number. It's different each time they log on. If you have the resources you can extract that number and do a reverse search or trace back through World com or other organizations.

Try it sometime. It will take you to my front door and right to my computer.

Anybody with any knowledge of computers beyond that of playing Pong

I miss Pong! Life was so much more simpler when we were waiting in line to play Pong. Then they invented Space Invaders and life just went to hell.

In my eyes, Pong=God, thus, there's Life Before Pong, which we shall call LBP, and Life After Pong which, of course, is LAP.....

During the days of LBP we did not have bicycle helmets, and we amazingly survived. During the days of LAP, we always wear bicycle helmets and look like complete idiots.....

So many search for God. I say, "Stare into the screen of Pong, and there ye shall find God!"......

Welcome back Roger.......and yes, I am really Chris Kent.....

As I stated previously, I do not like to delete comments which malign me, even though they are completely off-topic. I'm tired of cleaning up Roger's silliness anyway, so I'm leaving it all, just as I would have left whatever drivel Roger thinks Blogcritics.org has to hide. However, I am publicly warning Roger, again, to stop commenting here. For various reasons I've already made very clear to Roger, he is not welcome at Blogcritics.org.

I really do not want to block all Sprint dialup users because Roger has poor impulse control, but that is the next step.

Show a shred of maturity, Roger, and just go away before you ruin the site for all Sprint dialup users.

What the infamous Mac Diva refuses to understand is that Tillman volunteered to leave a lucrative football contract and serve his country, making the ULTIMATE sacrifice. THAT is why he is being singled out as a HERO. IF he were BLACK it would have made NO difference. BUT she doesn't get it because she is single-minded and SUFFERS from severe racial tunnel vision syndrome.

Neither does she CITE any authoritative sources to back up her outrageous claims. So much for her ALLEGED journalistic background. Obviously she subscribes to the THEORY that if you say a LIE long enough people will eventually believe it. KAKAPOO! Try again girl.

Phil, don't be fooled by her insincere niceties because she is short on friends right now. :)

Military data

I believe most people realize that I research my material thoroughly. Persons not limited in their ability by profound ignorance can simply follow the links to learn more about the composition of the Army and other armed forces. Or, they can Google for the homepages of those organizations and download the PDFs they provide, which are not directly linkable. Either way, one will discover my representation of the material is accurate. Indeed, to misrepresent it would serve no useful purpose.

Irrational people

I tolerate a lot more abuse in the blogosphere than in real life because:

1) I am a blogger. Squabbling, jealously and often pointless abuse comes with the job description, and

2) I write about topics that infuriate the Right, particularly the bigots in it. (Yes, there is a minority of liberal racists, too.) I do so knowingly, having had a civil rights blog for more than a year. That is like waving a red cape at the bulls in the blogosphere. So, I accept the fallout.

But, I don't understand why Roger Ely, and similar folks like Joni and Sheri, are here. They aren't bloggers. Their comments have no content beyond abuse. I really don't understand why they bother. For their own good, to avoid lives of irrational behavior, they should see counselors to help them direct their interest to something more worthwhile.

"I don't understand why Roger Ely, and similar folks like Joni and Sheri, are here."

I guess the impulse for censorship is strong among folks who trade in false racial propaganda.

This whole 'reinstate the draft' ruse was partly started from Charles Rangel's claim that minorities suffered disproportionate casualties in Vietnam. They didn't.

Alan W. Dowd points out the truth:

"As Mackubin Owens, a professor at the Naval War College, recently explained, "The claim of disproportionate minority casualties wasn't true during the Vietnam War...[And] it is even less true today." In Vietnam, 86 percent of the Americans killed were white; 12.5 percent were black, which was actually less than the corresponding Census numbers of 13.1 percent."

As I've said before, and as is true in the case of Charles Rangel and macdiva, shamelessness often accompanies beffudlement.

Mr. Dowd further informs:

"In today's wars, where pilots and Special Forces do much of the fighting and dying, the numbers are even less reflective of the country as a whole--but not in the manner Rangel would have us believe: As a recent USAToday analysis revealed, African Americans comprise about 2 percent of Air Force pilots, 2.5 percent of Navy pilots, 5 percent of Army Green Berets, and 10.6 percent of Army combat infantrymen."

Of course I don't dispute the 24-29 percent African Americans figure. The Postal Service is comprised of roughly 40 percent minorities. No one is bitching about those jobs though. Perhaps if those anthrax letters begin flowing again...

I don't dispute the Jessica Lynch myth either. But macdiva mis-interprets the agenda. It's not a white thing, Lynch's mythological heroics were radical feminist propaganda, meant to imply that women are just as couragous under fire as men. Some women probably are. Just not her.

Their is no myth about Pat Tillman. He is the essence of honor and duty. To disparage him is disgusting.

I honor all who put it on the line for my Country. I don't elevate Tillman above Keneth Watersbey's daddy, and that is the way Tillman would have wanted it as well.

Great post, Dan.

Anyway, the economic reasons for having the educated go-getters exempted from military service and the uneducated not exempted are pretty obvious.

The educated have a marketable skill (or will soon have one) that the economy has a high demand for. Losing them to the military (which does not require such marketable skills) means the supply of such skills will decrease in the private sector, while the demand will remain the same. The wages for those who are educated persons but are not sent off to war will increase greatly, and a economic shortage of such talent will likely arise. The economy as a whole will take a hit, IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR, and this is generally viewed as NOT A GOOD THING for the country.

Now, I agree that it is not "fair" to exempt the smarter, more educated, more motivated young persons from the draft. But it is certainly economically wise.

The high school drop-out who is semi-employed mopping floors part-time at McDonald's has the same worth as a human being as a Junior at MIT majoring in chemical engineering. But these two hypothetical individuals do not have the same economic worth.

I don't expect ya'll to like this much. It isn't really "fair" after all. But it makes good economic sense.

Capitalism isn't always "fair" either, but it sure as hell beats communism...

Here we go again.

When MD loses an argument she resorts to:

1. Her childish snob routine of my 'blog is better than your blog', OR

2. She plays the 'mind your own business' routine, OR

3. She attempts to 'evade and obfuscate the facts' in a futile attempt to save face, OR

4. When all else fails it's the 'why's everybody pickin on poor little ole me' routine.

Blah, blah, blah. Mac if you don't like then just shut up. It's that simple. Face facts girl, you don't anything to offer so why waste space? Stop polluting the blogosphere with your stupid tripe and find another cause to beat your drum.

Lord, if ignorance were a crime. . . .

If one accepts the figures offered here, which I don't necessarily, there is still disproportionality. The minority population is always significantly younger than the white population, so the impact of early injury and death is stronger. I will locate a more believable source for my own edification. But, I really do not think the Vietnam War is all that relevant to creating a more equitable military now.

The persons promoting the Myth of Jessica Lynch were not mainly feminists, but Right Wingers who wanted to put a face they approved of on the war. Anyone who was in the blogosphere at the time knows that nearly all Right blogs were guilty as sin. Next to none of them have ever retracted their ridiculous claims. Instead, they just stopped discussing Lynch.

Nor does saying the elite units are nearly all-white offer any new insight. I've said so in comments here and elsewhere. The figures suggest discrimination, something it is disingenuous for a reactionary like Dant Precht to be touting.

The day Chuck Hagel becomes a liberal or a Democrat, I will eat my iPod. The politicians questioning disproportionality are coming from different parts of the political spectrum.


Finally, lest we forget, Dan Precht is the same person who believes Rosa Parks may have deserved to be beaten for sparking the civil rights movement. He has also said that the civil rights movement was unnecessary. And, that blacks are less intelligent than whites. (Fortunately, not offering himself as an example.) He is in favor of discrimination against people of color. Of course he supports disproportionlity in the composition of the military -- because it is discrimination in regard to class and race.

She's an attention-seeker. Like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Hell, I woudn't be surprised if she one day became a full-time "civil-rights activist" complete with her own weekly show on CNN and a cadre of mindless rent-a-rioters.

No one would watch, but no one watch CNN anyways... ;-]

Dan, don't feel bad; I apparently said the same sort of stuff. When I asked McD to point out ONE such statement by me, she changed the subject and quickly disappeared.

(See "Joni's Rule #3)

As an African American Veteran of 2 wars, I take serious issue with this post. To say that "A soldier who pursues his adversaries is just doing his job.", is ignorant at best. Remind me of the last co-worker you had that was shot on his way to the paper shredder, or maybe the last time that you had a co-worker have both of his/her legs blown off whilst attempting to copy their report. EVERY soldier deserves our respect, and are all heroes for serving, either in war or peace time, this great country. If it weren't for the Pat Tillmans and Kendall Watersbeys of this world, you may well not even have the right to make your extremely ignorant point. Try chatting up someone in N. Korea online sometime and see what luck you have. Though not perfect, our country gives us all so many opportunities to live and succeed, that full respect should be given to all of those that provided it for us. Being a football player isn't what immortalized Pat Tillman. Being a "rich white man" isn't what immortalized Pat Tillman. Pat Tillman turned down a 4 million dollar deal in order to serve our country, not only that, but he joined the Army Rangers, the best of the best in the Army. He declined ALL interviews about the subject expressing through his friend that he didn't want to be held higher than any other person that chose to join and serve, and for that he will forever have my respect, as do all the men and women that have served in any branch of the service. No matter what you believe about our government's motives were for going to war, which btw I am strongly against, to question the heroic nature of their CHOICE to serve is nothing more than a slap in the face. I urge you ma'am, to travel as I have to other countries like Algeria, Rwanda, Ethiopia, U.A.E, Oman, Pakistan and several others; Maybe then you could finally appreciate what you have and be thankful for it. As a proud black man, I urge you sister, not to spend frivolous time complaining that a fallen man was honored, or that a captured soldier was brought home alive, but to move away from the message boards, and make a difference. Spend your energies correcting the true injustices in this world, run for a political office, and stick to your beliefs. Make us proud instead of ashamed sister.

Steven

Excellent post, Steven! :)

Steven, excuse me while I vomit.

I have never heard more brainwashed, pablum puke bullshit in my entire life. I suspect you've been in the military since high school graduation, thus your endless citations of the official press release sent out by the government......

If Tillman is a hero, and the first one to come out of this pathetic war on terrorism, then we really need to ask ourselves why we no longer have heroes.....

Citing the "sister" lingo tells me that you may very well NOT be who you claim you are, and even if you are, for you to not understand MD's valid stand against the claim of Tillman supposedly being a hero reveals more about you than you realize. I am so sick of military veterans citing the Shakesperian bullshit of "We are a Band of Brothers!".....give me a fucking break and go blow your military "brother" smoke up someone else's ass.....Your 15 minutes ended in 1959....

No offense intended.....

If only you could appreciate what you truly have, Chris, in this great country of ours. My opinions and thoughts come not from press releases and what the government tells me to believe, they come from life experience and seeing the real world, not from what some left wing talking head tells me to believe. It has been those experiences that have taught me to see both sides of issues. Pat Tillman wasn't the FIRST person to die in this "pathetic war", it was Air Force Master Sgt. Evander E. Andrews killed on October 10th 2001. A gentlemen who no doubt came across my path in Qatar as I in-processed the first of the soldiers to deploy. A real person. Not a white person, not a black person, not a Jew, not a Christian, but a person, just like your brother or sister, which btw, happens to be a term I use for all of those I care about. I'm not quite sure of the 1959 reference, as I was nowhere close to being alive back then, brother.

www.fallenheroesmemorial.com
There are the names of at least 820 heroes, that gave their lives so you wouldn't have to.

I am glad Steven you have finally written a post that makes sense.......At least we are not jumping on the Tillman bandwagon now.

I say pick one of the 820 others who died - it matters not who, black, white...hell throw a fucking dart.....and let us all jump on THAT bandwagon. Eulogize he or she...someone NOT well known, someone NOT a jock, someone NOT upper middle class...someone NOT famous before entering the service. Let's eulogize this person, and then truly mourn the TRUE military......

And let's NOT recite the bullshit of all the money he supposedly gave up to go fight a war......hell, he probably had a book deal in the works long BEFORE he accidently stepped on a mine, got shot in the back, or whatever happened to him out there when he was taking potshots at fleeing people.....

Chris Kent, it is quite likely that one of the regular Right Wing ranters wrote 'Steven's comment. Fairly regularly, some person identifying him or herself as a Very Good Negro will show up and echo the exact sentiments of a John Birch Society member. This one, with the poor usage and inability to punctuate, seems remininiscent of a fellow who claims to be a white soldier on other threads. Regardlessly, even if the seeming sock puppet was forced out of a womb somewhere, his comment is pabulum, not thought. The average person in the military is doing a job, and usually a very mundane one. Heroes, though rare, appear more often in civilian life than the military -- if one defines the word correctly. I will credit the rare hero -- military or civilian. But, I see no reason to declare Pat Tillman a hero based on the alleged facts.

Perhaps you can help me with another aspect of the amusing 'Steven.' If he is a newcomer, why would he call me 'sister'?

Chris, I am astonished by your animus toward Tillman. How can you be so cynical when the guy is DEAD? The conjectured "book deal" won't help him now. I can (sort of) understand the argument of praising all who serve and make the ultimate sacrifice equally, but how can you dismiss what Tillman gave up - his life?

Chris Kent - please, there were no book deals for Tillman. That is absurd. Listen to Jim Rome or other sports shows where Tillman had actually been a guest and then refused all media exposure when he made this decision to fight for the country. Jim did an entire show recently (available through streamlink) where you can listen to Pat Tillman speaking in his own voice, long before his decision to enter the military.

It might be wise to do a little more research before you badmouth someone who has passed on. Especially because your comments suggest that you know very little about Pat Tillman. The fact that you post with such disdain about Tillman and don't even know how he died doesn't leave your comments in a positive or well-informed light.

Do some research, manno and then see if you have the same outlook. I'd be interested in reading a truly objective analysis of why Tillman is not a hero, but there's about 0.00001% chance I'll ever see one penned by Mac Diva.

Well, when I teach, hypotheticals seem the best way to reach some students. Here are some.

A. Pat T. is killed, apparently by combatants, while pursuing mujahedeen who have ambushed his unit in rugged terrain. Just as 'Fight for Your Right to Party" peaks on the boom box, gunfire erupts.

B. Pat T. is killed, apparently by combatants, while dragging a comrade who was wounded during an ambush by mujahedeen to safety. His unit is retreating.

C. Pat T. is killed, apparently by combatants, while he and his unit dance in a clearing amid the rugged terrain, believing they have chased the mujahedeen who ambushed them off.

D. Pat T. is killed by friendly fire when an intoxicated unit member accidentally shoots him. They had been engaging in a ribald rendition of "Born in the U.S.A."

Only hypothetical B could be defined as heroism in my opinion. The distinction is that in B, the person is sacrificing his own interest for someone else's.

The opinions expressed on this thread by some are beyond silly. I've read the autobiographies of Lewis Puller, Jr., Max Cleland and Ron Kovic. All three, grievously injured in Vietnam, are straightforward about the difference between engaging in an heroic an act and being a casualty.

As usual TDavid, you're in over your head....."Book deal" is a figure of speech....simply put, Tillman was financially well off enough to where he could throw away future money to go fight in this supposed war....he bought in to the John Wayne belief and got killed for it, so we should eulogize him because the government tells us to?

As for citing Jim Rome as someone who proves we should all be jumping on the Tillman bandwagon, well, Rome has the validity of Howard Stern.....he's a SPORTS RADIO HOST........in other words he don't know JACK SHIT.....

I know enough about Tillman to know that if we are ALL true patriots, we should have been mourning the victims killed long before this wealthy jock was shot down......It is hypocritical of anyone to be questioning MD's post.....

People have been dying over there for many months....why are you just now crying TDavid? Perhaps because that someone is finally one of you....someone Jim Rome can FINALLY relate to?

I always screw up that word "pabulum"......

LOL, Chris. I'm not "crying", but you, sir are being very disrespectful with your comments to someone who fought to give you the freedom to speak freely. This has nothing to do with what the governement said in my book, but go ahead and muddy the waters.

And if you'd like to point out factually where I've ever been "over my head" as you so put it here at Blogcritics, then please bring it on but be specific. Provide factual URL links and posts and quotes of words that I've said that would indicate this to you.

I barely know who you are from your posts, only that you are coming on very strong on a subject which you do not seem to be educated about. I am politely trying to suggest that rather than disrespect a fallen soldier that you might want to do some more research about that soldier and not listen to people who have axes to grind.

As for citing Jim Rome as a source, doh! Read my post again. I said you should listen to Tillman speaking in his own voice. Is that not factual enough?

I never suggested that Jim Rome was the gospel, but I am speaking about the guest himself being present and speaking -- is that not factual enough for you? Your comments do not represent that you have done any research into this is what I'm saying and the more you post the sillier this appears.

Now if you can respond without trying to insult me, and remain factual about how Tillman was not a hero, I'd be interested to hear specifically where and when I was "over my head" as you so put it. Bring the URLs and exact quotes and we'll go there, otherwise I suggest you find a much easier target.

Mac Diva - I think it's shameful trying to parse the word "hero" in this context. Is that what you are trying to do here? If so, then it is beyond me why anybody would stoop this low in the commentary of a soldier who has died to protect all our rights to freedom?

That's any soldier, not just or only Pat Tillman, but since this entry focuses on Pat Tillman primarily I guess that's where you can and are questioning his status as a "hero."

I said in another thread that I could care less what color Pat Tillman is, but I do care that he was a soldier fighting to protect my freedom to sit here and type this to you. I'm not in a foxhole or dimly lit cave in Afghanistan, I'm in the comfort of an office and quite free from harm's way. Soldiers like Lynch and Tillman are giving me that freedom and I have the utmost respect for them. I will fight against those who disrespect them, because that seems like the least that I can do for them because of what they are doing for me.

Really, what was Tillman going to gain by entering the Rangers?

Facts:
1) he didn't have to go
2) after deciding to go, he still didn't have to enter the Rangers, which would present a greater hazard to him
3) he didn't have to be a soldier, he could have been an officer and thus chosen a potentially less hazardous job within the military
4) he could have publicized his exit but chose not to. He declined interviews, tv shows, radio shows, and yes, Chris, I'm sure there was a book deal -- or at least would have been one -- and the reports from many different sources are that he declined everything he was offered.

Heroes do things that are unselfish and the evidence and facts point to Tillman making not one but several unselfish decisions and actions. He chose to make conscious, unselfish decision to fight alongside others on equal ground and this makes him a hero to me, no matter what the specifics are of his actual death on the combat field.

Now just imagine how silly you, Chris Kent, and others carrying this barely flickering torch are going to look if it comes out that Tillman threw himself in front of bullets to save one of his comrades?

No, wait, I can guess how that will go. It will all be a lie from the government.

I don't get a lot of things you've written about in the past, but this one seems beyond extreme and this blog entry didn't make your point of view any clearer or more sensible to me, sorry.

Really, I have tried to keep an open mind for you point of view on this one, but I just ... can't see it, sorry. And Chris Kent's comments seem equally baseless.

Just the facts, please.

'Pabulum' does not do it justice.

So, Pat Tillman went on a nationally syndicated radio program about sports (Rome is Burning, yes the name is that bad) and talked about how humble he is. And, there are people who don't realize that in itself is self-promotion? Hello? Maybe there was a book deal or some other form of reaching in the offing. Would explain the publicity seeking.

I'm staying with Puller, Cleland and Kovic, men of intelligence and ability. They may not have performed heroic acts, but at least they know what heroism is.

LOL, you are wrong again, Mac Diva. Rome Is Burning is Rome's TV show that airs once a week on ESPN, his radio talk show "the jungle" is on Premiere radio daily.

Just the facts, please.

TDavid, people like Tillman go into the military for fun and adventure. It is an extension of the frat house and the football field to them. They join an elite unit and have a two to four-year party. But, sometimes, even when there isn't a war going on, they get maimed or killed.

The adventure seeker is a well-known personality type. Everything I've read about Tillman fits right in. If he had not been chasing mujahedeen in Afghanistan, he would have been skydiving or racing sports cars or something. Whatever gets the adrenaline going and allows for male comradery.

The notion that he went to Afghanistan for you or me is ludicrous. He went because it was his nature to seek out the latest, greatest most he-man thing going, and the war is it. If he wanted to help the Diva, he could have dropped by Portland and loaned me some money. That would allow me to take a hiatus from other work and concentrate on fininishing books. His ill-fated adventure in Afghanistan has done nothing for me (or you) at all.

But, you say, the mujahedeen are your enemies and out to get you. No, I respond. The mujahedeen are my enemies only when they are also terrorists. Most aren't. When someone is out to get me he is nearly always a fellow American. I live in a city where three people of color, unarmed, have been shot dead by the police in less than two years. Two in ten months alone. I'm in danger alright, but not from someone in Iraq or Afghanistan.

As for sports shows, I don't watch them. Instead, I read books by people like Puller, Cleland and Kovic, who have been there, done that, and have the ability to communicate the essence of it. Could explain why I know what heroism is. You will not learn about it from some crooked, platitude-spouting coach on radio or television.

Might I suggest you consider reading up on character, ethics, and integrity.

No Joe, you may not suggest it....

Then I'll just have to implore.

So far the only knowledge TDavid has proven to me is his knowledge of Jim Rome.......

Again, there wasn't anything to watch Mac Diva. It was on the radio ... you know, that box where sound emits from and people are talking and/or music is playing?

It's laughable and completely selfish for you to suggest that Pat Tillman should have stopped by your house and given you money to finish your book. You didn't just write that did you? LOL Unbelievable!

The American way is to get another job, get two, three or whatever is neccessary. Then one could finish his/her book, instead of looking for somebody else to proffer handouts.

Cops in Portland, Oregon? Hmm, what does that have to do with Pat Tillman and heroism? I suppose if we throw enough shit against the wall, though, something will stick :)

Now if one goes back and actually researches Pat Tillman (scary thought being factual) you'll find that he was on the radio when he was going into the NFL years ago, not recently, which has been stated several times.

He wasn't self promoting himself! Tillman was a very smart man, but he wasn't exactly a lock athletically. He doesn't fit this He-Man mold you are assigning to him.

Being good or even great in college doesn't guarantee that one is going to make it in the NFL.

And while we are there, why weren't there any other athletes -- white or black -- in the NBA, NFL or MLB, NHL, etc that stepped up and did what Tillman did?

No other atheletes had this He-Man urge to go and be a man in the military?

What about deaths from athletes in the pro sports dying from skydiving or other dangerous hobbies? I don't see a whole lot of facts with statistics which support this assertion that folks in these pro sports require this extra rush in such levels that they die more frequently than any other group. Do you have stats to back this up or is this just another opinion offered up as fact?

Tillman is an interesting story and study that goes somewhat outside the scope of this conversation, but it will tell you a lot more about who Pat Tillman was then his decision after 9/11 to enter the Rangers.

I'm not surprised, Mac Diva, that for someone who says she researches issues ad nauseum, you wouldn't bother digging deep enough to even learn the name of a sports radio show that has been on the air for over ten years. Nor would you admit to this mistake when called on it.

I read too and would never discount the importance of reading in society. I also have magazine subscriptions, belong to a book club, and while I don't share your interests, I know well enough before going on the offensive on something like this, I had better do my homework.

Hint for future reference: jimrome.com

Just the facts, please.

Please refer to Comment #59.....

Gee Chris Kent, is the search that difficult for all these places where you've found me to be "over my head" (comment #49) here at Blogcritics?

I have called you on it, so kindly either put up, retract that, or shut up.

And I only know about Jim Rome? Yep, that's all I know anything about obviously. You've figured it out, you've exposed me! :)

Here's a link to my commentary now get crackin' and see all the places you can find where I've been "over my head" as you put it. I will enjoy the read.

But until you present evidence to back up what you alleged in #48, then I think the cliche "over you head" will remain misplaced.

Just the facts, please.

Now, as Jim Rome used to have a TV Show The Last Word I think on this particular subject I have just given mine.

TDavid,

I was looking for information on Tillman so that I could be proven wrong, and found nothing but links to your posts about TV shows.

Nice "cracking" job TDavid. I enjoyed the facts on Alias. What's next? Comments on American Idol?

Now I implore you my misguided friend. Let's see a post with more than hot air and a few more facts. I can put on the Jack Webb mask too. Let's read some hard information that cites more than a sports radio talk show host.

It shouldn't be too hard for you, if you can turn off the Jim Rome show long enough......

And please remember TDavid.......facts that include more than pontifications on TV shows....Facts that tell us more than your opinion as to why Tillman should be bronzed in downtown Phoenix.....Like a poor marksman, you continue to miss the point......Do you need a life preserver?

Thanks TDavid.......I knew you could.....:)

I don't have time to clean up the results of too much pabulum, but will hazard a brief additional comment about the adventure seeking personality.

One often finds that kind of person among the handicapped. Disproportionately so in regard to spinal cord injuries and amputations. The fellow (usually) who ends up with such injuries is someone who is active. Sedentary people do not wreck motorcyles, dive into pools at bad angles, slip while skiing or hiking, etc. The less fortunate adventure seekers end up dead. So, in a way, the demise of someone who is an adventure seeker in a firefight is not all that removed from what might happen in civilian life. (Not the gun play necessarily, but the exposure to danger.) Nor do I want to leave the impression most adventure seekers suffer injury or death. They don't. But, they risk more and have higher injury and death rates.

The thing that struck me as lawyer dealing with the maimed adventure seeker is how unhappy these people are. They are not folks who want to sit and read a book. Yet, often wheelchair bound, they have little or no choice. I have a quadriplegic neighbor who is constantly depressed despite having achieved a degree of success in his field most people would be proud of. He was an adventure seeker before his injuries and will likely never adjust.

So, the situation of the injured or killed person who has that personality is a sad one. But, heroism doesn't necessarily apply.

You said to me in #48 and I quote your words verbatim: "As usual TDavid, you're in over your head"

I replied in #50 with: "And if you'd like to point out factually where I've ever been "over my head" as you so put it here at Blogcritics, then please bring it on but be specific. Provide factual URL links and posts and quotes of words that I've said that would indicate this to you."

So what do you do? You go silent and can't produce what isn't there so then I give you a link to every comment I've ever made here at Blogcritics (#62) and then you want me to do the research to prove to you what you claim that I usually do.

Yeah, that makes sense.

In a rare moment of candor, MD refers to the comments inspired by her post as "the results of too much pabulum." A chicken or egg problem, to be sure.

I came across this message board quite by accident, but found the topic to be of interest. I will make this my last post for the day, as it is now 9 p.m. here in Germany. It appears to me that Chris Kent feels very strongly about what he feels, and "normally" expresses it with great articulation. Chris, I'm sure that we agree on a couple of areas. First, that our government's motivations for going to war were suspect at best. Second, that ALL the men and women that have given their life for this country deserve the recognition that the media gave to Pat Tillman. It's just a simple fact that nobody, that I know of, else turned down a 4 million dollar contract in order to serve. As TDavid has pointed out, Pat never wanted any coverage of his enlistment saying that he was no better than any other person that was serving and turned down EVERY, not most, but every request for an interview. For that, I don't know how you can't have some respect for the man and I'm sure he would be upset to see the coverage that his death received in contrast to the lack of coverage (I believe CBS is giving a whole 2 seconds per person on their special this week) that most the others have had. I respect your opinion, and I hope that you realize, as I believe you do, that it is because of people like him that we all have the rights we do. It's not a perfect system by any means, but we as a people have the right to change it non-violently if we can just see through the huge piles of shit that our current 2 party system gives us. I believe that your thoughts come from yourself and not what you've been told to think at least. Which is much more than I could say for Ms. Mac Diva. An obvious puppet of the left-wing biased media. Ms. Diva seems more preoccupied with thumping her own chest, spouting names of authors she's read or trying to figure out how to get that word from her "word of the day e-mail" into a post today. Ms. Diva, open your mind. I hope you do take something from someone who's been there, but you can't listen to just one side because you happen to currently think that way. To be TRUELY educated in the world is to see both sides of the issue(s) at hand and come to your own conclusion. The right wing side isn't the only side that does the brainwashing. Your "I'm a victim" and "they're all out to get us" attitudes that you've made very clear are what's holding you back from your true potential. Try freeing your mind, and don't get so hung up on the "punctuation uses" of life, sister. TDavid and Chris, just looking at the two of you argue and debate makes me proud of my years of service. Debate is the truest form of Democracy. Good evening brothers and sisters.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings TDavid.....so far, you have proven my statement true.....

*puts on Jack Webb mask*
Let's stick to the Tillman facts, shall we?

Should Tillman be considered a true American hero or not? It is abundantly clear many do consider him a hero. I can see MD's side to this quite a bit, and can understand where she is coming from. I, for one, consider the entire hero-myth-making machine of the government/military to be loaded with shit...and I have thought that long before Tillman was killed. I wonder what type of person would find Tillman a true hero? It is obvious he was not your average Joe - eccentric in the extreme. I genuinely feel that to parade Tillman around as a hero for America is a mistake. Give me the unknown soldier any day. Give me the common working man soldier, of which Tillman most definitely was not.

We can believe the myth or we can believe reality - where Jim Romey boy falls I have not a clue, but God the man loves to promote himself - anyway, I see people ganging up on MD when her point is a valid one. If Tillman had not been Caucasian, and yet everything else, would we still be jumping on the Tillman hero parade?.....I genuinely believe we would not.....

For us to get angry over this stance, simply means MD has struck a chord....

This isn't a pissing contest TDavid (which I would most certainly win), this is a discussion on heroism in America. Is Custer a hero? Tillman? Robert E. Lee? Audie Murphy? I have never bought into the fact that just because a man/woman fights for our country they are instantly heroes......What about people who choose not to fight? Should we not consider them heroes too? Ali comes to mind here......Tillman is a safe posterboy hero for White America - he's upper middle class, educated, white and by God he gave up America's sport football to keep us safe!

I am saddened EVERYTIME I hear the Death Numbers on the news at night......EVERYTIME.........I feel no additional sadness for Tillman than I do the others......Tillman makes a good story, doesn't mean he makes a hero for all of America.....

"TDavid, people like Tillman go into the military for fun and adventure"

Unbelievable.

Like I said in another post around here somewhere , you can not demean the integrity of this soldier to uphold the integrity of another,OR for your very suspicious cause.The whole shebang gets smeared in feces.

The whole shebang gets smeared in feces.

Good God, how do I get myself into this? I'm going to go write about an old B movie.....this area of the neighborhood wears me out.....

Chris Kent - first off, you haven't "hurt my feelings" or made me cry, so quit with the drama and patting your back. If it is a pissing contest you desire then I invite you to the internal Yahoo forums where I will literally take off the gloves. There are rules out here and I am trying to abide by them :)

You keep avoiding my question for you to provide proof ... why?

Blogcritics is a review site to me. I come here primarily for reviews, and I contribute primarily reviews and I primarily comment on reviews. That is another reason why I linked it for you so that you could see what was obvious from the history of my posted words.

I also come here primarily for pleasure, not for business. I have a good business on the web and I don't need to come here and argue with people I don't know when I could be spending that time making $$$

I come here primarily to get and share opinions on music, video, films, etc.

So a person could say: "TDavid, you usually don't enter these type threads" and that would be accurate, or maybe "TDavid it's unusual for you to jump in here, why are you here?" and I would understand that.

So does this help you see why your comment in #48 struck me as not only odd but patently untrue?

I try not to enter into as many of these non-review threads on purpose because frankly they are not of that much interest to me and usually full of factual errors and often these kinds of mostly time-wasting discussions that you and I are having right now. You puffing your chest, me responding and neither of us getting anywhere.

And getting flamed by somebody who knows literally nothing about me just for disagreeing with said person is more often the norm in these type threads. Believe me, I have better things to do for pleasure and business than that. Don't you?

With the Tillman situation there is crossover appeal from sports so that explains my extra interest in his case, because obviously I enjoy sports and yes, I do know something about sports. I try not to get into discussions that I have little to no knowledge about for obvious reasons. Who wants to debate with somebody on something that they know little to nothing about?

Chris Kent - your comment in #48 suggests that you have witnessed me "as usual" being "over my head" which infers to me that you've witnessd this happening with me on several occasions in the past. Simple question: have you or haven't you? And if so, then please provide proof with links of this.

Fortunately, here at Blogcritics the past is all public record and accessible to you, I or anybody else who wants to view it so open-ended critical statements like yours cannot go unchecked and unverified.

My memory and I believe the factual record of my comments and contribution here doesn't match what you alleged in #48 so I simply -- and I thought politely -- asked you to present me with where that has been the case here.

You haven't which means that you can't, which means that the statement is untrue, which weakens everything else you have to say that follows.

We're all human and we all make mistakes and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but avoiding the issue isn't the way to resolution.

Since you haven't been able to prove what you alleged, I'm left with further confirmation that this was just a baseless, unnecessary slam. I'm used to this kind of behavior on the web from people who aren't face to face.

These comments are commonplace on the web from those who usually can't make a rational argument and resort to personal attacks to put a smokescreen over the issue that he/she feels strongly about. Mac Diva has done this to me before and usually every time I put on the "Jack Webb mask" as you put it she runs for cover.

To my knowledge and memory, I haven't engaged you on any level in the past so I do not understand why you are being rude to me here and now. If I've forgotten an incident or two in the past then please refresh my memory but I'm drawing a blank on your name. What gives?

Mac Diva I could understand the flameback from because we do have some history -- although she is staying on topic in this thread (thank you, Mac Diva) -- but you I don't know, so I'm wondering what the hard on is all about here?

So was it just a poor choice of words on your part or is there substance to your comment #48? Which is it, please?

If there is something there let's break it down, if not, then please say so, capiche?

Until we get past that specific comment, I won't go any further with you because it appears way too much like a diversionary tactic on your part and it damages the credibility of every word you post since then.

It is possible that we would agree on some aspects of Pat Tillman, but we are never going to get there unless/until you address your own words in #48.

Have a good day, I'm going back to work now.

I don't think anyone here has argued that all soldiers who die in service of our country are worthy of honor.The guy from a low economic background deserves our praise just as much as Pat Tillman.

I dont think anyone here would argue all of the issues that have been brought up.

MY problem with this, is the attack on a soldier, period, so you can pontificate while getting the attention you obviously need .
When a person joins the military, they become a part of a UNIT, a BROTHERHOOD that can last a lifetime, and crosses all racial lines.Attack one, and you attack them all.

just a side note. has anyone noticed what a "hollywood babe" jessica lynch has become? she looks like she has had the total makeover. i predict she will be hosting a reality show within a year or two.

jack e. jett

Thanks for the update on Lynch, Jack. I respect the fact she has not made claims she can't support. But, I think she could have said more about the lying of others, including the person who wrote 'her' book. Lynch does not strike me as very marketable, but I'm not surprised she is giving it a whirl. I hope she does not turn out to be the next Jessica Hahn.

"And let's NOT recite the bullshit of all the money he supposedly gave up to go fight a war......hell, he probably had a book deal in the works long BEFORE he accidently stepped on a mine, got shot in the back, or whatever happened to him out there when he was taking potshots at fleeing people..."

This is the most disgusting thing I've read in a while.

I hope someone out there is praying for you. I sure as shit won't be.

"The adventure seeker is a well-known personality type. Everything I've read about Tillman fits right in."

Hmm.

Mac Diva: Anonymous BlogCritic, unemployed journalist, supposed "educator", and now a long-distance psychoanalyst. What a sight to behold!

"The notion that he went to Afghanistan for you or me is ludicrous."

Well, I'm sure he didn'y go for you...

"He went because it was his nature to seek out the latest, greatest most he-man thing going, and the war is it."

Now you're a psychic?

"If he wanted to help the Diva,"

[retch]

Is this Omarosa from The Apprentice?

"he could have dropped by Portland and loaned me some money."

Why do you need a hand-out so bad, MD? I thought you were a highly-educated? A strong black woman?

"That would allow me to take a hiatus from other work and concentrate on fininishing books."

Fininishing books? What kind? The kind that require crayons?

"The thing that struck me as lawyer dealing with the maimed adventure seeker is how unhappy these people are."

Now she's a LAWYER!

LOL...

Good points all TDavid.....I have gone over your posts and they are quite good......I admit the "in over your head" comment was unwarranted.....

I have enjoyed your work and can see you know your stuff.......

As for pissing contests, well hell, let's not dirty the sidewalk aye, folks have enough pets to do that for us.....

I will gladly look forward to future blogs.....nice work......

Mr. Kent is a man of integrity.

I disagree with him on some things, but he is a decent individual who will admit an error. I applaud that.

Thanks Chris :)