U don't watch American Idol because it rewards style over substance? WRONG. Then u complain about John Stevens still being left? He has neither style nor substance. Therefore, the premise of your post is error strewn. Case closed. Jennifer Hudson was voted off? A travesty. She had style AND substance. You can not legislate for voters, clearly. But this myth of what these pop idol shows are about needs to be thrown out. Most of the competitiors through the seasons have been good singers, save a few. In the UK we have one who has moved over to classical music and is storming the classical charts. Yes, she can play the piano..but people like you would have watched her on the show at first and said..Karaoke singer, pop star, can't do shit. Now, she's playing Tchaikovsky and Mozart and the critics are singing her praises. She was the same bitch that was on the show, people..LOL. We have another who has written a classic timeless song called "Leave right now"..the critics are singing his praises. When he was on the show..he was disparaged as all the pop idol contestants often are. It only goes to show what you all know. This whole new trend of feeling cooler than thou when it comes to what music you like or what you think is music..is as false as the canned laughter on the last series of Friends.

Thank You Sandra. YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They could probably fix the "John Stevens problem" easily if they just had people vote for who they want off the show instead of who they want to keep on. That way you wouldn't have the good singers splitting the votes or people not voting because they think their favorite is too good to get voted off. Look at what happened the first season. Nikki McKibben hung around almost to the bitter end on the first season, and she couldn't cary a tune in a bucket. But, if all the bad singers wee thrown off early, the show would be boring, so I guess that's why they have it set up the way it is. Besides, with the horrible record contracts the American Idol producers sign the winners to, maybe the people getting voted off are the lucky ones.

I fear the only way to fix American Idol would be the fix the American hoi polloi. A lot of what is wrong with the program is also what's wrong with the populace.

I would like to know more about the AI contracts Chris (Puzak) mentioned. Hint: Instead of scads of reviews of each show by different BCs, someone could write about an ancillary issue like that. The entries would still be about AI but shed light on substantive aspects of show business.

Come to think of it, I believe our very own Eric Olsen wrote about the American Idol contracts in a post about the show last year. I don't recall the title of the post though. I just remember the contracts seemed pretty bad, even by major label standards.

If the Contracts are bad, it is no reflection on society. It is a reflection of the greed of Simon Cowell and Simon Fuller who are both British:) Ofcourse, they represent a section of society i.e: record labels and bosses but I wouldn't look on the contracts as some example of society going to hell. We are on our way to hell for a variety of reasons. AI contracts hold little or no relevance when judging the issues of the populace.

I will preface this with admitting that I should not "complain" about the outcome of one week since I do not vote, however, with that said I have to just voice that either the entire voting audience is deaf, the competition is "rigged" in some way, too many adolescent young girls find John Stevens either cute or endearing (neither of which I understand), or there is some form or racism going on. The fact that the "three divas" were the bottom three is completely and utterly unbelievable. I don't care if you are 12, 24, 50, or 75 with a hearing aid, John Stevens is and has been so CLEARLY the WORST singer in the top 12 with ZERO personality that it is incomprehensible why he is still in the competition, let alone - not even in the bottom three, actually ranked ABOVE LaToya, Fantasia, and Jennifer. If this continues, I won't be a viewer of the show anymore. Not that it ever was "quality" tv, but the voting seemed relatively fair in previous seasons whereas this season has been one curveball after another. Come on American Idol Voters, do you understand what best singer means? And with that said, if I see another performance by John Stevens where I cringe at the sound of his voice and vomit as I see him reach for the camera with the most painfully boring and mechanical attempt at charisma at the end of his performance, I will scream!

...and the world will scream with you:)

People. Listen to me here. There's no racism. It's oversaturation. That week there were 3 virtually identical "divas". Three black girls that sing pretty much the same way and appeal to pretty much the same person. Catch my drift? The people that like diva soul singers had to pick their favorite of the three virtually identical singers. So, the result was one of the better singers getting booted because she was the least favorite in the group of three similar vocalists.
Make sense? Or am I crazy?

You make sense Stephen but it still makes no sense. Your point of three similar singers is well taken. Though, I think Latoya & Jenny sound less gospel than Fantasia.

The point is, are we to believe that John Stevens got more votes than Jennifer Hudson? The question was not to pick b/w the three singers. There was John stevens, diana Degarmo, the Haiwaan gal and George Huff who had his worst session on the day. It's not all about John though he is the worst..so you can not justify the daft vote with "over saturation". Was Jennifer Hudson the worst singer on the day? NO. Is Jennifer Hudson the least liked person on the show? I don't think so since she got the highest votes the week before. I don't know what happened and I am not sure I want to know.

If people don't understand the concept of vote splitting, then people don't know much. I'm predicting right now that one of the two remaining black female singers will win this season's American Idol competition and hopefully put to rest this silly suggestion that the voting thus far has been tinged with racism. I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how a black man, Reuben Stoddard, could win last year's AI competition if the people doing the voting are so racist. Did the voters suddenly become more racist over the course of one year? I don't think so.

We have thought that there is some electronic piracy going on since Amy first was eliminated. Felt sure this was the case when JPL (not the #1 but surely not the worst)eliminated. Now the three top performers were the bottom three. I have talked to people all over the country who were unable to vote for JPL the week he was eliminated. They tried from several places in the country and received busy signals for the entire allowed voting time. I know the lines can be tampered with, and feel sure someone is doing this. I don't know how, but ask a hacker. If y ou are a whiz with electronics, or have a job with AT&T maybe you have a way to do this. I don't feel this is a fair competition anymore and am totally losing interest in the show. Could it be someone who desperately wants one person to win? Or someone with a gripe towards AI that want the ratings to go down? Don't know.

Don't know what is going on either, Sheila. But, with late night television making it a joke and people like Elton John speaking out, American Idol is going to have to face up to its problems.

I love watching American Idol, however, I don't get to vote since I live in an asian country.

It is with my hope that the fellow Americans would vote those who not only can sing but has plesant and humble personality as well. Initially, I kinda like Fantasia, but after her reluctance of accepting constructive criticism, I was totally turned off by her.

In my opinion, idols or even great performers should be a people person. Look at Princess Diana, she is not arrogant at all. The worst thing that could actually happen is Fantasia winning and she is a diva with an attitude - nobody likes that. Having the whole family actively involve in church, Fantasia should protray a more modest and humble person instead of the behavior that she protrays. I don't see any of the contestants giving off unspeakable acts and holding grudges weeks after weeks after weeks (hadn't she learnt to be a better Christian, to forgive and forget?)

Moreover, Simon is just being honest, like it or not. He is not there to win some presidential vote but he has a job to do. Everyone accepted his comment graciously but not her...... If one cannot accept constructive criticm in life, one cannot be a better person.

I guess she grew into having this big head since the day Paula said that Idol is Fantasia and she is a winner already even before entering the contest.

To Fantasia, stop pouting and grow up!

Ruben won, but who got the adulation, the immediate cover of Rolling Stone, and the "benefit" of a nation musing that Ruben only won (and had the support of the judges) because of some affirmative-action mentality at AI? The John Stevens sorta-lookalike.

In truth, there are a lot of factors involved, but pigmentationism is surely one of them. The biggest one, however, IMO, is the lack of taste in general of the American public.

Props to Natalie.

I've been mulling the Ruben evasion, too. A fine singer, he. He deserved to win. But, he is also a very non-threatening African-American man. Could a black fellow who has 'flavor,' including sex appeal, do the same?

(I'm leaving Justin out because based on comments on the message boards, many white people do not realize he is of African descent.)

No Diva, no one of ANY race with any "flavor" is going to get on this show. That's the classic problem with all these star search type shows every- they ALWAYS look for non-offensive lowest-common-denominator generic CRAP.

Leaving race entirely out of the picture, could you imagine Eminem or Bob Dylan either one coming up through this show?

Elvis Presley wouldn't have had a CHANCE on this show- they're looking for Pat Boone.

MacDiva, who is of African decent? Justin? Justin who?..lol..I want to withold my laughter till I get a response from you. I'll just chuckle, meanwhile.

I am in full support of every American Idol contestant's courage to chase their dreams. I may not like all of them but I admire their drive to try to grab this opportunity. It's all well and good to scribble in anonymity and disparage these people like we all do but "Everyone has a talent, what is rare is the courage to follow the talent to the dark place where it leads." (Erica Jong) and "Use what talent you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best." Henry Van Dyke.


Some may have personality, some may be bland, they are making the best and most of what they have infront of millions of people every week. What have you yourself done today to make you feel proud?!

The choice is allegedly there for the American Public to make. The American Public voted Dubya President. I am ashamed of myself that I would expect to find the voting on American Idol without any complications.

I don't doubt that as Natalie said, pigmentation had something to do with the Ruben v. Clay thing, but, I would argue that it was also a marketing thing. When they did those singles immediately after the show, Clay did Bridge Over Troubled Water. Ruben did Flying Without Wings. I don't even know what song that is. Again, Clay did Bridge Over Troubled Water. This, being one of the most well known songs in the history of rock music, makes for a much better entry into the market.

So, while I agree that race had something to do with it, I think there were other factors as well.

Flying without wings is a fantastic song that in my opinion can rank alongside Bridge over troubled waters. The difference is..FWW was sung by a "boyband" called WestLife. If Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell had sang FWW everyone would have been all over it as a lyrical masterpiece and a ballad to stand the test of time. Now, it was made popular by little wee Westlife not even famous in America..and Clay is supposedly said to have gotten more recognition because he sang Bridge over troubled waters and not this "unknown" song.

No issue of whether it was a good song or not..It was just unknown compared to this rock history song..it really just gets sadder and sadder and it almost becomes devastating when you realise "they" don't even see the falseness in which "they" use to judge music.

Sandra, I am not sure what you are saying exactly with all your quotes and your last sentence there. The fact is that the song IS largely unknown, especially when compared to Bridge Over Troubled Water.

Let me break it down to you..The song IS largely unknown compared to Bridge Over Troubled waters. So? That means what exactly? Is that part justification for Clay on RS instead of Rubby in your view?

If so, it is further confirmation that no matter how "deep" or "cool" you think your musical tastes run, people are always willing to use "popularity" as a trump card when it suits them but spend the rest of the time spitting on "popular musicians".

I can not understand how you justify the mass attention on Clay in Comparison to the Rubster on some forlorn notion of the rock history of BOTW in comparison to FWW.

Justin Guarini, Sandra. Justin's father is African-American. His name was Bell before his mother married Guarini. Pops has quite the rep as a lady's man in Atlanta.

sorry macd..thot u meant timberlake..totally forgot about guarini

It is not a justification, but an explanation (among others) that explains Clay's popularity. So, yes, the difference between the two song selections is part of the explanation.

Then you have people saying it is a racial issue. I would say that is partially true as well.

Also, I think the difference between the two is that Clay is weird, which makes him a little more compelling. People were trying to figure out if he was gay or straight, and why he had his "moves" onstage which were also strange. These aren't a reason for popularity, but it leads to a more compelling story and thus more people thought it entertaining to read and write about Clay.

I am just saying it all goes much deeper than singing talent and/or race, although those are also factors.

Thanks for saying, in essence, my main point: "In truth, there are a lot of factors involved, but pigmentationism is surely one of them. The biggest one, however, IMO, is the lack of taste in general of the American public."

Sorry to mimic you Nat. I started out talking about the differences between the chosen songs and just kept going in response to Sandra.

Hello, I just wanted to add my unemotional point of view to this blog. It seems we have 4 people that people have to vote on. 3 of these people have the same culture, genre of music and same peers. The other person appeals to another culture that does not like the music of the culture of the other 3 contestants. I do not see this a racest, but wanting to promote the music of a common culture. In reality, you may think a rap singer is better than a bad crooner, however, if your culture does not like rap, then a bad crooner is better to them. Again, this has nothing to do with race because a lot of "white" kids like rap, its just that when you divide the vote of those that like rap 3 ways and then have all the votes that like crooning or do not like rap only going to one person, then commen sense says that the person that does not have to split the vote will win. This is even the way it is in our government. If 2 people of the same culture are running in a district with a person of another culture, the one that does not have to split the vote almost always wins. Stop playing the race card. If you really need to play a card, play the culture card.

Glen, I'm not sure why you used rap in your analogy, nobody on the show does rap. Of course big band and rap are dramatically different musically, but the three you are referring to don't do rap, they do pop which is much closer to big band and will have more of a crossover/blending appeal. It sounds like you just compared crooning (John Stevens) to rap ('the three'). Careful or people might say you just threw rap out there because they are African American. They haven't rapped yet.

While I agree with your assessment of big band vs. rap, I don't think it's quite as distinctive here. I bet any one of those three could do a crossover into big band and be a great singer. I'd like to hear Fantasia do Ella Fitzgerald's shoop be do bop.

I see your point and maybe I was not really clear. It is hard to transfer complicated thoughts in one paragraph. The point I am trying to get across is that they are targeting a culture that like a certain type of music. I have watched a few 'Idol' shows and have hardly agreed with the judges and who they liked. The singers that they like twist a syllable into several notes and have a lot of "attitude". I come from a culture that wants to hear the words and the only attitude is a positive one. Again, cultures span different races. I see people like Nat King Cole, Yo-Yo Ma, Luciano Pavarotti, Jimmy Buffett, Aretha Franklin, and Aaron Neville as one culture. I also see people like Tracy Marrow (Ice-T), Marshall Mathers (Eminem), Public Enemy, Beyonce, Janet Jackson, Christopher Dorsey (B.G.), Rogers Nelson (Prince) as another culture. There are more cultures such as hard-rock and acid-rock. I home I cleared up my first post. Thanks.

Steve (boomcrashbaby), one other comment though. You made the statement "Careful or people might say you just threw rap out there because they are African American." By researching the internet for papers written about the origins of rap and even pop, it is clear that they both were started by the Africans that grew up in America in the last generation. Even as "Blues" and "Jazz" were started by the Africans a few generations before us. So any assumption on that line of thinking would not be a "racists" observation, but a fact that is based on the actual, though not at times popular, truth.

LOL! Ridiculous.

Janet Jackson epitomizes pop music. Not much in the vocal department, but salvagable by being good-looking and an excellent dancer. Benefits from the fine production values of songwriters and choreographers. Performs a good song often enough to be worthy of one's attention.

What Grayban is doing is making an essentially racist argument. Yes, he threw some African-American singers into to his 'acceptable' category to mask it. But, his illiterate use of culture can't. Americans come from the same over all culture. The African-American sub-culture is not monolithic, but to claim Aretha Frankin comes from his approved (white) 'culture' and Janet Jackson does not imakes no sense. Christ, a little rich girl whose relationships with other people of color were nil until she was an adult is more mainstream, not less.

And this drivel:

I come from a culture that wants to hear the words and the only attitude is a positive one.

Someone needs to sober the guy up and enroll him in reality classes.

I'm not sure what the origins of the music have to do with it, Glen, I must be misreading your post. I went back and read it again but I still don't see what your explaination relates to. But it doesn't matter to me, I was just pointing out an observation.

You talked about John Stevens and "The Three" (assuming this means the three divas). Then you talk about crooning vs. rap.

Since John Stevens = crooning, it reads like your analogy then goes to "The Three" = rap. I was just pointing out that they don't rap, and threw a humorous line out about why you might equate them with rap. That's all.

Mac Diva, You will have to believe what you want to about me. However, on the level of music, America is not a culture as a whole. Yes, when you talk about economics, foreign relations and democracy, America is a single culture. It is ridiculous that one should think that stating difference in cultures is a racist's statement. A culture e.g. "the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn" has nothing to do with ones citizenship.

However, I will leave these last comments:
1) My list of acceptable only has one "white" American (Jimmy Buffett). The rest are not.
2) My reality is derived from whom and what I allow into my life and the choices I make.
3) If you do not see the difference between this, then I would suggest some light reading:
>http://www.gocampus.org/alliance/acquire/acquire1-4-1.htm
>http://www.usscouts.org/mb/mb017.html

Or, for more average reading:
1) http://www.stanford.edu/~roylance/americancultures/Pages/coordinators.htm
2) http://www.gdnet.ucla.edu/iacweb/iachome.htm
3)http://www.library.arizona.edu/library/teams/sst/his/class/tradcult103.html

By reading into these higher-education sites, I hope you will see that you are wrong.

I cannot imagine any educated person not preferring certain music just because the singer is from Africa and not England or Asia. Again, I was addressing a culture of music that spans many races and ethnicities.

In all fairness I think its safe to say all American "pop music" spans one culture as much as anything. Sure rap, blues, jazz, rock, ska, whatever the hell else you want to name may seem different on the surface but underneath it, it's still from the same cultural origins. It doesn't have anything to do with race. But the references, phrases, concepts, the points of view and even the instruments are all the same.

There is a common mainstream pop music category. But, to accurately depict what occurs in it, one would need to diagram a large circle for that category and smaller circles for quite a few genres of music intersecting, but not fully within it. For example, circles for rap and country would part of, but not exclusively in, the circle. American Idol favors the music more fully embraced in the big circle, what one would hear on Top 40 radio, with some leaning toward older pop, too. It is the music of a common culture, American and international, that likes pop music. That mainstream category has been deeply influenced by American music, which has been in turn deeply influenced by the music of West Africa.

Glen Graybar is still using the word 'culture' to mask racist claims. Boom picked up on the ridiculousness of his claims. Assigning the three African-American contestants (then) to 'rap' and claiming the white contestant is a crooner is nonsense. All four sing the mainstream pop I referred to above. In fact, nearly all AI contestants do. That is what the show is about. What Graybar is actually doing is, though so foolishly argued it is hard to follow, is claim the white singers are superior because they are somehow above their AA counterparts and the music those contestants perform. Misusing the word 'culture' to do that is a very thin pretext.

Indeed. Assuming that "the three" come from the same culture, one different from Stevens' ("3 of these people have the same culture, genre of music and same peers. The other person appeals to another culture that does not like the music of the culture of the other 3 contestants"), proves that what he calls "fact" is lunacy. Stevens and "the three" ARE peers -- young Americans on a TV show.

I don't know if I'd put the three Divas in the same style of music as John Stevens, but I'll take your word for it, if it's racist or not. What I do know is when I read the comment (#28) it read similiar to this:

"I don't like Whitney Houston because I just don't relate to that whole gansta rap." or maybe "No Madonna for me, I just don't get classical symphony!"

YO!! IT just a bleeping TV show. Get over it.

If any thing Idol has a pro minority bias . look at the over repersentaion of minority contestents out of 16 contestents 8 are usually black 50 precent 1-2 asian 2-4 latino and usually 4 white thats not a fair repersentation of the actual usa statics where minorities make up 33 percent of the poplulation and AFrican americans make up only 12 percent not 50.

Idol has 2 minority judges who show their bias in favor of black contestents and music any white they show favor towards is one who emulates and embraces a black style and has a R and B/gossipel hiphop flavor. if you don,t want white people to win on the show call it back American idol and put it on bet where it already belongs

The one white judge on American Idol is not even a American,so how can white Americans be fairly and acurately judged when non of their peers are doing the judging or taking part in the shows standards?

The one white judge on American Idol is not even a American,so how can white Americans be fairly and acurately judged

1) ultimately, the votes AND WINNERS are done by Americans calling in, not the judges.

2) Just because there are no 'white Americans' on the panel of judges does not mean that white performers can't get an even break. That's a ludicrous statement that suggests that all minorities will only vote on race. Kelly Clarkson, season 1 winner and a white American girl proves that theory wrong.

You all just have a thing against judges, don't you?

wow 1 white American girl won big deal. that don,t prove anything these are white people who sing like they are in a black church. like I said any white they show favor towards has a r and b/gossipel flavor,besides the fact there are token whites on soul train and bet as well and token black musicans in the white heavy metal sceen

Okay, I will be the first BC to admit I'm biased - againt American Idol. I don't have a thing against judges, though, ust the show.

[grin]

Eric, you should perhaps return to defending Matthew Hale

olsen I think hale is a moron.however,I do think he was set up. I,m not down with hales out moded christen-conservitive way of thinking and yes I think a fair amount of what he preachs is propaganda,but I also think the media,government and education system enforces a certian amout of propaganda as well. people like hale are just a reaction to that

I don't watch American Idol. Recently I was given cause to wonder about the outcome of these contests. There is a software that claims to be able to help you vote multiple times for your pick. I don't know if it works, but I think anytime you have a contest like this, there is a possibility of it being somehow manipulated.

interesting PT, I think they are counting on the sheer volume of voting, and competing interests cancelling each other out, to overcome thing slike this

what kind of contracts do the contestants sign? Is there anyway we can see a sample of the contract

i think chris shouldn't have left. THE PHONES WERE SCREWED UP! I VOTED FOR HIM AND IT CAME UP KATHERINE.

chris should stay! HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE LEFT. the phone line was messed up..and he needs another try....