I am not sure whether to be in awe of his bravery and dedication or deeply saddened that he is no longer with us. Probably both.

I think it is a sad story today, but it really turns into an uplifting and inspirational story. He did this in the wake of September 11th while most of us were talking, he was acting.

Heard about this first on the Jim Rome show and blogged it myself. Sad news :(

That's getting a lot of coverage here. The local news played a tape of Tillman saying how wonderful American society treats people. My immediate thought was 'Speak for yourself, buddy.' If someone has to die in an unjustified war, I believe it is only fair that it be someone like Tillman instead of the typical poor or working-class kid forced into the military because he did not have other options. Why should the people who get the worst treatment in society usually be the ones to die in its wars? If a Right Wing jock wants to go to Iraq and kill mainly innocent people, that's bad enough. But, I would much rather he go than a youth with no real interest in protecting the interests of Bush, Cheney and Halliburton. Here's hoping more fellows like Tillman sign up.

I don't even know what to say to that comment. It left me shivering though.

Mac Diva, it should be noted, is likely going to vote. For Kerry, one assumes.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

The "loyal opposition" is largely a misnomer, by the way. If you want to see how these people really think, go to the Discussion Boards here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/

Note the ad running on this site for Air America Radio. This is their base of listener support.

Shiver some more...

Craig, you post nonsense like the above and expect people to just go along with it? No way. There's no avoiding the facts, i.e.:

*There is a paucity of evidence to prove Iraq has anything to do with 9/11. Instead, the evidence supports the view that Bush Jr. intended to invade Iraq from the get go as a continuation of Bush, Sr.'s policies and for the oil.

*There is plenty of evidence to establish that Bush, Cheney and their cronies will benefit from the invasion of Iraq, and related actions.

So, Tillman went off to kill people to forward the interests of Bush, Cheney and their cronies. His actions may have no impact on terrorism. Apparently, his jock's GPA is not evidence of good reasoning skills.

I do find the part of the entry when his coach says Tillman sought out danger while in college telling. It suggests someone who wants to die.

I cringe for Arthur Ashe. Right Wingers have hijacked his name and are using it to imply he would approve of the invasion of Iraq, which I doubt he would have.

I hate to interrupt your ranting McD but
he was killed in Afghanistan not Iraq.
As for his "Jocks" GPA: He carried A's
all his time at ASU. Not that it makes a
small bit of difference to you whether
you know what you're talking about or no
when you go on the offensive.

Also, he made his decision after 9/11. Unless he was some sort of soothsayer he didn't know anything about Iraq at the time. Your asterisk points are just political garbage that you felt like spewing on this man's grave.

We don't always agree, but I take great offense at you calling what I wrote nonsense.

I am in awe of his bravery and of his staunch belief in his Country. How many would leave a 2million a year lifestyle to fight for their country? Not many. I don't care if he was blessed with wealth etc. I don't know anything about him to know if he was rightwing or racist or whatever. However, the fella left a great life to put his life at risk for his country due : 9/11.

May his soul rest in peace. I certainly would never consider such a thing with the life I have now let alone a 2million a yr lifestyle. My heart goes out to his family and friends. Especially his mother(if alive)& his kids, if he had any.

HOW DARE YOU! MAc Diva, you really have upset me by writing "If someone has to die in an unjustified war, I believe it is only fair that it be someone like Tillman instead of the typical poor or working-class kid forced into the military because he did not have other options." By focusing on economic necessity, which you constantly harp on when military service is brought up, you seem to think it is the primary, or only reason a person would "Choose" to serve, as opposed to being a homeless below poverty line wage slave. In doing so, you patronize my fellow servicemen and me, and you cheapen our servie, and devalue our choice to be in uniform.

To think that a guy like Tillman was off-base joining the military after 9/11 seems ludicrous. He was really just trying to further the Bush agenda? I don't think so. I find that comment not only wrong, but offensive. I feel like what Tillman did was patriotic and selfless no matter in which way people at the top ended up pushing him.

He joined because we were terrorized and he wanted to do his part to fight for our freedoms. That is nothing but patriotic and noble. I fail to see what the Bush agenda has to do with it, as he wasn't in those meetings with Bush.

It is absurd to quibble over WHERE he was fighting when he was killed. He joined the military after 9/11 because he felt his country needed him. The perceived motivation behind any given conflict has exactly zero to do with the people fighting it - they just do what they're told and go where they're told to go.

The point is he was killed fighting for his country in a role for which he volunteered, giving up far more than most in order to serve. He is a hero - as are all who defend our country regardless of socioeconomic background. Some things are infinitely more important than class.

Tillman had more integrity in his little pinky than MacDemon can even imagine existing in her entire, eternally victimized universe.

feh.

True colors.

Craig, you sound as if you are still trying to reason with the braying pig known as macdiva. Why bother. Her main bone of contention is that Tillman is a white guy who upheld the proud traditions of selflessness, honor, valor, and decency. All the things she has no concept of. Since she's never understood the payoff of having integrity, she's not shy about dis-respecting those who do. Ignorance and shamelessness go hand in hand.

There are way too many macdiva's and far too few Pat Tillmans, and that's sad.

Dan: Tillman is a white guy who upheld the proud traditions of selflessness, honor, valor, and decency.

Sandra: I have a problem with that comment. Do you mean traditions in general or are you trying to tell us that all these virtues are a "white man tradition"? If it's the former and you are just describing Tillman's qualities for his act of courage, then excuse me for reading your post out of context. I hope it's not the latter. If it's the latter, WHAT in God's name are you smoking?! STOP inhaling this instant!

I thank dat macdiva be a shark love'n ho. No what i sayin?

macdiva wrote:

"Craig, you post nonsense like the above and expect people to just go along with it? No way. There's no avoiding the facts, i.e.:"

You meant e.g. (for example), not i.e. (in other words). You're a half-educated product of the grievance mentality.

You're getting it, Sandra Smalllson. This collection of ignorant beyond the norm commenters* are heaping praise on Pat Tillman because he is one of them. Question: Where is the entry Craig will write about the people who make up the majority in infantry units -- Hispanics and African-Americans? Answer: It does not exist. That is because for people like those here only someone they identify with counts. The overwhelming majority of people who die in Iraq (and Afghanistan, since it is an extension of the same war) will be poor or working-class whites, blacks or browns. There will no be no caterwauling over their demise. We're 'supposed to' die so middle and upper-class white men, who do everything they can to avoid military service, can have their 'fun' wars.

Speaking of fun, that is often the motivation for the relatively few middle-class white men who volunteer for the American military. Studies show that they join (usually for only one term) for the fun and adventure they expect to experience. Working-class people join because they are desperate for jobs. At the very least, someone like Tillman was likely chasing 'fun.'

It may be worst than that. There is a condition in which people, usually men, pursue 'heroism' at any cost. They put themselves or others in danger so they claim to be heroes afterward. There is a catch, though. The 'hero' will have been the person who set the fire or wrecked the car in the first place. Then, he 'saves' himself or others. There isn't sufficient evidence that Tillman had this condition, but enough to make someone aware of it wonder. A young man who has chased danger in the past. Who joins the military soon after marrying. Who may have put himself in a vulnerable position. Could be.

Last year, there was a lot of praise heaped on a young, middle-class white man who amputated a limb after getting himself trapped on a hiking trip he was totally unprepared for. He too was declared a hero. It was not his first encounter with such a situation. Well, there is a condition in which people are obsessed with getting rid of a limb or two. They put themselves in situations where amputations occur or obtain injuiries doctors will amputate as a result of. The condition It is called apotemnophilia. The fellow's story read like a textbook case. I blogged that so people could learned about the condition. Now, there is a little less in ignorance on that topic in the world. The complexities don't stop there. People also need to educate themselves about why folks put themsevles into other kinds of danger. 'Accidental' death is sometimes suicide. 'Heroism' is often phony.

It is kind of amusing that we are covering the same territority so soon after the previous 'Myth of the Heroic White Soldier, ' i.e., that of Jessica Lynch, fell apart. Shows how much some folks value their myths, I suspect.


*Eric and Sandra are are likely the only ones of the commenters so far to have read any research in their lives. People who are the least knowledgeable are the most given to the empty-headed bromides that litter these comments in my experience.

We're all stupid, but Mac Diva can't use Latin abbreviations correctly (she chose professional grievance over education) and can't cite data to support her racist claims. But she can throw out dubious insults with the most pathological of them. There are several reasons BlogCritics remains a second tier site, and Mac Diva is one of them.

MAC:

Tillman died in Afghanistan, not Iraq. And he got his degree in (I think) marketing. It wasn't some bogus jock degree.

Your "facts" are wrong. You defile the great man's good name. You sicken me.

"Last year, there was a lot of praise heaped on a young, middle-class white man who amputated a limb after getting himself trapped on a hiking trip he was totally unprepared for. He too was declared a hero. It was not his first encounter with such a situation. Well, there is a condition in which people are obsessed with getting rid of a limb or two. They put themselves in situations where amputations occur or obtain injuiries doctors will amputate as a result of. The condition It is called apotemnophilia. The fellow's story read like a textbook case. I blogged that so people could learned about the condition. Now, there is a little less in ignorance on that topic in the world."

Less ignorance in the world? Did you commit suicide after this comment?

I'd be interested in "the entry Craig will write about the people who make up the majority in infantry units -- Hispanics and African-Americans" because that would be a pretty interesting piece of fiction. I note this a article:

Take, for example, the 101st Airborne Division, which has deployed to the Kuwaiti desert for an expected helicopter-borne invasion of Iraq. African-Americans constitute only 23 percent of the 101st Division even though the Army as a whole is 29 percent black.

It's the military's most elite units that remain the most homogeneous. Few minorities serve as combat pilots or in Special Operations such as the Navy's SEALs or the Army Special Forces. African-Americans still make up a smaller share of the military's officer corps - 8 percent overall.

Additionally, this breakdown of Army demographics clarifies that the statistics of the CSM article were inacurately represented and the 29% number probably represents the author's aggregation of the numbers for blacks and hispanics or a selective reading of the numbers.

Sorry, the article cited above is here.

Courtesy of MD who cited it previously, but apparently failed to comprehend its meaning.

Hey Mac, I appreciate you leaving me out of the researched folks department. Why are you taking such swipes at me? By the way, your entire last comment was a diversion.

Can we get back to the part in your first comment where you said Tillman was just furthering the right-wing agenda? You were flat out wrong and no matter how many follow-up comments citing anecdotal research about weird conditions where people want to lose their limbs will change the fact. You could admit it every now and then.

May I also point out that nowhere in this entire post was there anything about race until you brought it up.

I would like to think that we get along, but I feel like an undeserving target of your angry rhetoric this time.

Bullsh!t, your good friend Roger was the first person (?) on the thread to mention race, Craig. Nor is there anything bogus about the research I cite. Feel free to post reliable research proving the military is not mainly made up of working-class people, disproportionately minority. Go ahead, take all the space you need. Or alternatively, admit that you posted an entry that is just adoption of someone else's silliness. Since my information is accurate, you would be wise to take the alternative.

The irony in all of this is that we are 'supposed to' buy myth making over reality. As long as people do, they will remain just the kind of sheep Bush and company rely on to keep their corrupt arses in office.

Would you care to point out specifically where Roger mentions race? I'm not sure that fellators or people with hairy bums necessarily constitute particular races.

Maybe you need a break, you really seem to be lacking the ability to understand, either that or you feel out of your depth and compelled to keep changing the subject. Not that this is anything new, but it really is tiresome.

I made an error. The first person (?) to make a racist remark on this thread was Dan Precht. He said:

. . .Tillman is a white guy who upheld the proud traditions of selflessness, honor, valor, and decency.

implying that white persons are all that. After all, they're white.

Yes, that is the same Dan Precht who has said he thinks Rosa Parks may have deserved to be beaten. And, that the civil rights movement was unnecessary. And so on. Ad nauseum.

Craig, quite a fan club you've accrued here.

I'll be awaiting your improvement on my statement about the demographics of the U.S. military.

On the bright side, more legislators are talking about bringing the draft back. If that occurs, the burdern of injury and death in the military will be shared more equitably.

If you stretch any further, something may snap. You assert that Precht implied something which more likely you inferred. I assumed that he was attributing those qualities to members of the military rather than whites in general.

And, really, do you want to bring up peoples past statements? You've garnered quite the reputation as somewhat the prevaricator.

As to your statement about the military's demographics, do you care to explain how exactly persons of color constitute the majority with infantry units? Wouldn't that mean that there would be a greater percentage of non-whites than whites? I would assume that would mean their percentage would have to be somewhere nearer 50% than the 23% or the generous 29%.

Joe, Macdiva stretches nothing. That comment by this Dan character clearly implies that he thinks those attributes are a "white" thing. That comment is so stupid that Dan Precht as a white person has only increased the average percentage of stupid white people by making that comment.

I inferred the same myself as I clearly stated above. It was out of the kindness of my heart:) that I even gave him an outlet to escape that most ignorant of statements. If he did say Rosa Parks deserved to be attacked, then perhaps he does have a problem with darker skinned people. Poor baby. He is better off killing himself because slavery is over with and shan't be returning. I kid u not, Mr Precht. If you do have a problem with the non white, then u've only got one way out of this earth. I encourage nothing so horrendous. I simply suggest an alternative to what must be a miserable existense for you right now.

Back to point...look, I posted on here cos I believe what Tillman did was courageous and selfless. If he did it bcos he is rightwing or racist , whatever..I don't care. I don't know him. That's b/w him and his God. To me, it's a brave and selfless act. God rest his soul, and that's the end of it. He is as much a hero as soldiers all over the world who die for their country. He is not special. It was his own choice to leave a luxurious lifestyle. It doesn't elevate him from these working class people Macdiva is talking about. Neither does it demote him to someone unworthy of heroworship.

HOWEVER, the responses Macdiva has been getting, leads me to believe some of what she is saying. Some of you truly might be racists. It's like you are using her as scape goat to make your true feelings known. What is the meaning of "professional grievance"? Is that a term the whites reserve for the blacks or the jews? How about "professional stupidity with a dash of amateur ignorance"? I don't know if that's a term the blacks reserve for the "whites" or the... "whites"?

There are a few other really moronic and imbecilic comments coming from people who are calling another a moron or pathological. There is even someone, I don't know if in jest, responding to MacD with what I can only call "African American ghetto language"..ha! very unwise and very shortsighted of that individual. Let me assure him/her that the hicks/hillbillies and a few other caucasians especially in America are in no position to be poking fun at anybody's English Language because it is not a language they are overly familiar with either. You see. In every race we have the uneducated. The uneducated regardless of colour, simply can not speak proper English. Therefore, responding to MacD in the context of this thread, with that tone is not amusing and is just downright daft. Then another is going on about "29%" being "generous"? I don't think that if we have a larger proportion of whites in the army it makes them braver people? What a ludicrous line of reasoning! There are brave people in other works of life and each race contributes. In each race we have the useless loafers, we have the hardworking. If you are all so fascinated by statistics, well, ofcourse there should be more whites in the army. There are more whites in America, full stop. So, where is the surprise?!

A re-reading of your comments may require some of you to take the log out of your eyes before you advise Macd to take the speck out of hers. If this is an example of the response she gets from you guys regularly, it is no wonder she thinks most of you guys are racist.

It is a shame that this thread got highjacked, it really should be about Pat Tillman, but allow me to make one observation, which can be easily researched for someone with the time to look up the reports and news articles relating to how many minorities there are in uniform, but more importantly, what jobs they do in uniform. I am only going to opine about the Army, because that is what I know;
Generally by percentage of all minority service members, more minority Soldiers are found in the Combat Support/Combat Service Support roles. Think of clerks, mechanics, technicians, etc. A greater percentage of white males will go into the Combat Arms, i.e, infantry, tanks, etc. The report concluded that this was the result of why the Soldiers had enlisted in the first place. Belive it or not, while many Soldiers first enlisted for the quid pro quo of college benefite, etc, for a term of service, there is a lot of pride that comes in the process of serving their country, it is unavoidable. Generally, minority soldiers enlisted to get a skill that they could use after their enlistment ended, or after they had done 20 years and retired. It had nothing to do with courage, just planning for the future. In any case, in Iraq, lots of non-infantry Soldiers are out risking their lives on a daily basis, not secure in some rear area, their courage is tested every day, and they do their duty. Anecdotally, more minority soldiers that I know chose to stay for 20 rro various reasons. The white males often enlist for Combat Arms because the training is challenging, but is also is a lot of fun. Think of it this way, you can spend a day working in an office, or a specialty that involves riding in a tank, jumping out of a plane, or blowing things up, the choice is obvious when you are "young, dumb, and full of...". I first had a combat specialty, and it was a real thrill, but I realized that it was not the most marketable skill I could have, nor could I see myself doing it for 20 years, so I changed specialties and learned a foreign language, not a bad option. Not all Soldiers enlist with the idea of staying in for 20, but almost all of them sign up for GI Bill and college fund, and get out and complete their education, and even come back in, many as commissioned officers. That includes minority Soldiers as well.

Point is, courage and patriotism are only part of why any Soldier enlists, and these traits are not exclusive to any race.

As for Pat Tillman, the tone of incredulity that is expressed " Why would a man walk away from 3.6 million to be a Soldier?" is more a sad reflection of modern America's civic values, than any economic factor. I forget who it was, but there was an article about 18 months ago by a man, maybe a lawyer or professor, whose son joined the Marines, and most of his peers expressed regeret or condolence, rather than congratulations. Pretty sad, in my opinion. I don't expect people to slap me on the back amd thank me for soldiering, but there have been times when people, my own family included, have really offended me by saying things like, "You are a pretty smart guy, why would you waste your time in the military?" I am 39 years old, and most of my peers enlisted at a time when military service was definitely seen as a last option, if it was considered an option at all. We were a short sighted, somewhat selfish generation, we did not serve anyone, we expected to be served. I won't lie, I joined because it was a good trade-off, it was only after I had spent time in uniform that I realized why I was proud of serving, and I did not find that mentality, that idea of duty or honor in the civilian world, I chose to remain in uniform because I like what I do, I like the people I work with and for, and I like serving a nation that might make mistakes, and often does things imperfectly, but it is a nation that represents hope and potential for beterness, and freedom for so many who are willing to take the chance. Some of you can whine and cry about social injustice in the US, but if it is so bad, why do people come here. I have seen totalitarian East Berlin, impoverished Cairo, visited segregated Saudi Arabia, been wlcomed liberated Kuwait. The US isn't perfect, but it is much better than many alternatives.


Some people will never understand, and that is their loss. Some people can post their opinion of whatthey think drives a Soldier to enlist, or why we do what we are called on to do, but really, unless you have been a Soldier, orreally know a Soldier, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, I'm seeing it different.

Let's examine this closely.


Starting with comment 4, then comment 8....MacDiva is attacking Craigs post, and the integrity of a Soldier.

She further attacks the soldier's integrity and sacrifice, by implying that he did it for the Right wing

. Now, since he wasn't even IN Iraq, but Afghanistan, this shows evidence that she is not basing her spite for the soldier on any real fact, but on the basis of the spite she has inside.

But for what exactly?

Read Dan's comment:

"Craig, you sound as if you are still trying to reason with the braying pig known as macdiva. Why bother. Her MAIN BONE OF CONTENTION IS THAT TILLMAN IS A WHITE GUY....."

The ONLY thing Dan was doing here, is referencing Craig back to what MacDiva is most known for here on this site, and that's her spite for whites, especially male one's.

We can be thankful that MacDiva is a minority in this country in more ways than one.

Using a dead soldier to futher her "I'm a repressed, helpless victim of American racism" is about the most evil, despicable act from the Drama Queen so far.

The body isn't even cold and she's pissing on Tillman's memory to further her poor-poor-pitiful-me agenda.

Couldn't respect the dead and remain silent for one friggin' minute.

Gawd, her shit gets old.

One has to wonder what traumatic event in her childhood caused such a bitter, twisted view of the world.

Hell, Frederick Douglass was a REAL slave and he had more compassion, understanding, and empathy than McD could ever muster.

Bottom Line: Tillman exhibited a huge amount of integrity, civic duty, and committment to the greater good -- three qualities lacking in our society and especially our resident Professional Victim.

"Craig, quite a fan club you've accrued here."

How the fuck is that my fault? I write something because I think a guy who turns down 3.6 million to play football and does NO INTERVIEWS for publicity sake is a little bit different. He died. I like football. It struck me as sad. Tell me where I have to apologize for that?

"I'll be awaiting your improvement on my statement about the demographics of the U.S. military."

I never said a goddamn thing about the demographics of the military. YOU DID!

YOU SAID: "But, I would much rather he go than a youth with no real interest in protecting the interests of Bush, Cheney and Halliburton. Here's hoping more fellows like Tillman sign up."

I think it is pretty apparent that he didn't sign up as a pawn for Bush, Cheney and ESPECIALLY Halliburton, when he signed up right after 9/11 before Iraq was even mentioned in public. HALLIBURTON WAS NOT A PART OF THIS ORIGINALLY. THEY CAME MUCH LATER. YOU USED THIS AS A TOOL FOR YOUR AGENDA. I agree with you lots Mac, but you are really reaching here.

Maybe points need to be made about the demographics of the military, but why should I have to research that to do a sentence and a cut and paste article on Pat Tillman getting killed? It is a different issue. Pat Tillman getting killed is sad not because he is a white guy, but because I KNOW WHO HE IS. I watched him play football and I remember him. Knowing someone (even in this very limited capacity)always makes their death much sadder. I was sad at his passing. I am sorry that I wasn't mourning the losses of the over-represented minorities in the armed services first.

That wasn't my point. I know it is yours, and I respect that. I think it is fair. I haven't done research so I am not in a position to disagree with your numbers. You are probably right, but why did you pick this time and place? In the process you picked on a guy who happened to be white, that I respected as a football player.

You felt that an appropriate topic to blast me?

Craig, If you need to know what motivates her dishonesty, I refer you back to comment #16. Better still, Sherri's clarification comment #34. (Even feeble minded Sandra Smallson should understand that.)

In macdiva's deranged universe, white guys simply do not behave in the profoundly extraordinary way Tillman did. She can't have that. It is one of the many things about reality that make her angry.

Yada. Yada. Yada.

The bottom line is:

*Pat Tillman is being cheered for the same reasons Jessica Lynch was. He appeals to white conservatives because he is, well, white and conservative -- and doing something people like them support (military service), but usually will not do themselves. There are other reasons too, of course. Among them is his boys just want to have fun interest in the military. And, it helps that he did not need to join the military, because poor folks do not get Right Wingers approval. If he were a Job Corps dropout with a GED we would never have heard of him. If he were black the kind of folks on this thread would be saying he was too stupid to move out of harm's way. So, no, Craig did not refer to race and class, but it is implied. That is why he has attracted the fan club he did. (Which I am not blaming on him.)

I appreciate Lil' Joe unwittingly assisting me. The data he supplied says there was a decrease in the number of black Army personnel during the 1990s, from about 30 percent to a projected 24 or 25 percent when the data was complied. However, even the low figure is nearly twice the representation of African-Americans in the populace, even more if you control for age. The figures for women are even more telling. Half of women in the Army are black or Hispanic. The data is a guide to who can get worthwhile jobs in civilian life and who can't. (The jobs minorities get in the military are usually also low tier, but I will save that for another discussion.) Of most importance, the situation will not improve. Projected figures for coming years maintain the disproportion. Unless the draft is brought back, the people who serve in the military and die in our wars will continue to be disproportionately working-class and nonwhite.

Those are the facts. Throw as many tantrums as you like, but that will not change them.

Dan, feeble minded or not, you are yet to elaborate on what exactly u meant by your comment. Do you think it speaks for itself and you don't see how any one can infer what I have from it? Even you, can not be so daft.

By "MacDiva",
If he were a Job Corps dropout with a GED we would never have heard of him. If he were black the kind of folks on this thread would be saying he was too stupid to move out of harm's way.

Message: #1 If he was a Job Corps dropout he probably wouldn't have a GED. #2 The stupid bastard wouldn't even be accepted to the military.

My oh my, does this subject get old, Mac Diva! The guy is a fucking hero and I say that whether he was white, black, brown or green -- a hero!

The only "facts" that I see have nothing to do with the cliched guesses and assumptions made in #37.

Facts:

1. Pat Tillman had a deal on the table for a million dollars a year for three years in the NFL, with incentives.
2. Pat Tillman turned the deal down to fight for this country after the events surrounding 9/11.
3. Pat Tillman refused many opportunities to publicize what he was doing (interviews, radio appearance, etc). Therefore, it can be surmised that he took this action for purely unselfish public or political reasons. He wanted to go to war and fight for this country.
4. Pat Tillman chose to enter the Rangers, knowing full well if he passed the rigorous training, he would likely be seeing front line combat.
5. Pat Tillman, based on his education, could have been made an officer and thus received an officer's salary which would have paid him nearly double that of the Ranger salary ($18,000 that he took). He chose to be right there with folks with GEDs or less education. Again, black, white, brown, green, whatever!

None of the above *FACTUALLY* says anything about Pat Tillman's personal political position or his feelings on the issue of race. This was clearly a color blind decision on his part. It wasn't a racial statement of any kind.

There are so many cowards and true racial angles to fight but this is just another empty battle cry for oppression where none FACTUALLY exists.

Fine, if you want to explore minorities in the military then go start another thread about it. I don't see how that is relevant here. In fact, I think it's just totally dis-fucking-respectable to the memory of Pat Tillman and his family.

And I'd say the same thing if Pat Tillman was black!

I don't know what y'all are getting so excited about.

It's obvious the beeeeatch is using satire just like when she suggested that BB should do her in (snicker, snicker).

When blacks were just the bus drivers and cooks in the military (WWII, for example), this was viewed as discrimination. Because, you know, it was.

This all changed. Blacks are now on the front lines.

And now THIS is viewed as some sort of discrimination?

IT'S AN ALL-VOLUNTEER MILITARY! THESE PEOPLE WILLINGLY SIGN UP FOR SERVICE!

Most soldiers who die are WHITE. MOST SOLDIERS ARE WHITE. AND MALE.

Is the military sexist because less women sign up and die than their proportion of the population?

Are women cowardly because the vast majority of the ALL-VOLUNTEER military is male?

Why are we even discussing this?

All who serve honorably deserve our praise. All you die deserve our praise. Pat Tillman served when he didn't have to, did it without talking about how brave he was in the media, and is now dead. I praise him. I don;t care what color he was. It doesn't matter.

MD: "...even the low figure is nearly twice the representation of African-Americans in the populace, even more if you control for age. The figures for women are even more telling. Half of women in the Army are black or Hispanic. The data is a guide to who can get worthwhile jobs in civilian life and who can't."

Has there been a more racist statement in this thread? I think not.

To assume that blacks and hispanics join the Armed Forces because they can't get worthwhile jobs in civilian life?!

If one of us would have said that, MD would be all over it.

There are a number of plausible explanations for the propensity of blacks and hispanics to join the military: patriotism, bravery, education, benefits, service to the greater good, skill acquisition, travel, discipline...

BUT any of those reasons would automatically assume BLACKS AND HISPANICS make honorable, informed, intelligent decisions for themselves, a characteristic McD is not likely to attribute to her fellow minorities.

Un-fucking believable.

--And explicit proof that she has a RACIST viewpoint that regards blacks and hispanics as inferior to whites.

The research says minorities join the military at disproportionate rates because they don't have the options available to whites. That isn't exactly 'volunteering.' It is taking what you can get. Other research, on discrimination in hiring and retention in the civilian workforce, confirms that finding. Since I have a great deal of respect for the serious, intelligent people who assemble the data, I accept their findings. Less particular persons should feel free to accept the bigoted grumblings of senile old men.

It's funny how no one has said anything to Truthminister on his black&decker comment. You guys just ignore it and head straight for MacD. I don't care if you think she deserves it. But atleast spare a line for inbreds like Truth Minister.

Hey Truthminister..Kin ah ask yew a question? what's red&white and peels itself? Come on naow, yew haf'to know the answer to daight..Gee, goddammit betty mae bobby jo, the answer is yew, Truthminister, trying to get a suntan.
Gee wizz Anna Mae, that term coloured? Now, let's see here..blacks were born one colour and will die that same colour. Whites were born red, lived white or whitish yellow and will die grayish blue..what race is referred to as coloured, again?!

Now, I lift myself away from the sewer that I have sunk into to visit one of our resident sewer rats, Truthminister. Hopefully, I will regain my senses and be a normal human being soon enough:)

Sandi, you ask a rhetorical question and then answer it in your last paragraph.

Here's some soap.

~ ~ []

"In May of 2002, Tillman announced his intentions to join the Army, turning down a $3.6 million contract offer in the process for $18,000 a year and an uncertain quest to become an Army Ranger. Tillman and his brother Kevin decided to enroll in the U.S. Army Rangers after the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks.

Both Pat and Kevin committed to three-year military terms, landing spots with the elite U.S. Army Rangers.

The Tillmans' goal to join the Rangers was not an easy one to achieve. Only 35 percent of all candidates get to wear the coveted black and gold Ranger Tab.

The two served in the Middle East as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Pat and Kevin were recipients of the 11th annual Arthur Ashe Courage Award at the 2003 ESPYs.

In 2001, Pat Tillman turned down a $9 million, five-year offer from the St. Louis Rams to remain with the Cardinals for less money.

The 5-foot-11, 200-pound Pat graduated summa cum laude with a 3.84 GPA from Arizona State, with a degree in marketing.

"You don't find guys that have that combination of being as bright and as tough as him," Snow said."

==== end of reprint ====

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind..." ---John Donne

PAT TILLMAN
........RIP.........
1976 - 2004

Shark, when I want your opinion, I will give it to you.

MD shite on the memory of a heroic man just to promote her own self-serving agenda. Almost makes ya want to revoke freedom of speech ..... Shame on you oxyMORON.

This post went from being something informative to just a harangue of psuedo-pshyco analytical / political BULLSHIT. How about everyone DROP the egomania and rather than speculate about someone else's intentions as to why they joined the military, we simply treat Pat Tillman with the respect of a human being. Is that so hard? Really?

Sandra is right in #46, I deleted the comment in question.

Please try to disagree without being insulting and puerile.

You're right Eric, so long as you also remember to edit Mac Diva every time she makes false statements or brandishes somebody with the 'R & B' words etc., etc.

I am trying to keep up with all direct name calling and personal attacks.

Censor Macdiva? Never. Macdiva is a chacacter of one of this sites own. That would meen self censorship.

We're spilling a lot of tears over Tillman. A lot of people have been killed in action over the last few months.....who gives a flying fuck about Tillman? I'll tell you why.....he played professional football...he was a jock...he was an athlete in the NFL. He decided to turn his nose up at money and fight for his country, and he got killed for making that fateful John Wayne-bullshit decision. There's been a lot of people killed.

I can't possibly think of a single person who makes a SAFER hero than Tillman. I, for one, think it's a lot of propaganda nonsense......and am frankly glad someone in here is seeing through the bullshit......

Chris, I understand where you're coming from but let me rephrase what I think you are trying to say.

Yes, Tillman was was a patriot and hero in every sense of good ole American tradition, BUT let us not forget all of the other fallen heroes either. God bless them all - and might I add, let us hope no more will have to die.

I don't think there are many things less "bullshit" than fighting and dying for your country. Who he is only comes into play because he gave up more than most in order to serve. Admiring his sacrifice in no way takes away from every other person who has made the ultimate sacrifice.

Chris Kent and Sandra, thank you for your support. However, I'm okay. The Sheris, Jonis, Joes and RJ Elliotts have gotten to be old hat. I know that they never have any information or insight about anything, so I either ignore or skim their output. It is not like I'm gonna miss something significant.

BTW, many of the 'Left' sites I've looked at are much harder on Pat Tillman than I am. They dismiss him as a fool. My perspective is that I want military service to be more equitable, not that no one should ever be a soldier. It is an opinion shared by quite a few agenda setters, as well.

I've posted an entry about our latest 'All American Hero' and the disproportionality issue on Mac-a-ro-nies. A version should appear on Blogcritics when the server reaches it. I know Craig dislikes having his threads soiled by the feces throwers, so I apologize to him for providing them an opportunity. It would have been wiser for me to have posted my own blog entry instead.

I think that was a very gracious statement.

Good idea Macaroni. Talk to yourself on your own stupid blawgs (nudge, nudge, wink, wink :).

Hello... this is the big Mac speaking over at Silver Rights. And did you happen to catch my racist rant over at one of my other stupid blawgs while talking (to myself) in the third person? NO, well then be sure to catch the exciting rerun over at BC. Doh!

I don't condone attempts to stir racial tensions, and that's what you do.

You are using tried and true techniques of propaganda to accomplish this, specificaly the one of "short-circuiting rational thought", on this thread.You encouraged this by:

1. agitating emotions
2. exploiting insecurities
3. capitalizing on the ambiguity of langauge
4. and by bending the rules of logic.

That includes name-calling, generalities, and transfer.

Thanks, Mac.

Y'all can fall for the false modesty routine all you want, but you can bet your life she will be back to shite on you faster than you can order a big mac. Those that have been around here long enough no better.

But in the spirit of goodwill toward my fellow (wo)man and all that, I throw down this challenge. I will be good if she agrees to hold her tongue for even just one week. Should be a tough one to swallow - eh mac?

I'm not fallin' for it joni, but as a continutation of your "spirit of goodwill", I'll make my own "very gracious statement":

Craig, I'm sorry macdiva soiled your thread with her feces throwing.

What is a Mac Diva? Sounds like some kind of food.

About #60 Joni, you're right on target.
#61: Sheri go teach pre-school. While you're at it get me some juice and cookies... Thank you mamm...

I'm learning how to preform excorsisms right now, it will have to wait.

In my high school, there were two huge tragedies that occured during the same two or three months.

One student was goofing off while driving his car and it smashed into a tree. He became a vegetable. But he was just an unpopular computer nerd, so the media barely paid attention.

The other student drown while goofing off swimming at the beach. But he happened to be a local football hero, with a football scholarship to a major state university. The local press was all over it for days. Front page stuff. Interviews with fellow students sobbing over the loss (even though many of them barely knew the guy, if at all).

I was sickened by this. And though I now better understand the reasons for the disproportionate responses to the two tragedies, it still sorta bugs me.

(By the way, the first guy was white, and the second guy was black...)

Anyway, Mr. Tillman was not honored "extra" just because he was a jock. Part of it was because he was already famous, and therefore had more name-recognition than your average soldier. Greater name-recognition means more people who "personally" knew the deceased. And that leads to more media coverage.

The other part is his personal sacrifice. He gave up millions pf dollars, and appearing on television as a "sports hero" every week. He gave this up for relative chump change and anonymity and risking his life in a dangerous job. He died for this choice.

And THAT is why we honor this man so much. He took the more difficult path. He took the road less traveled. And he gave up, literally, everything in doing so.

RIP: Pat Tillman.

I don't consider Tillman a hero. As a pacifist, I am against war, against the military, and certainly against the notion that post-9/11, the decent thing to do was to go out and kill.

HOWEVER... I am sad to hear of his fate, just as I am sad for all those of all nationalities who have died in Irag and Afghanistan. And anyone who would ditch a multimillion dollar job and fame to follow a difficult and dangerous course in order to live up to his or her principles is a rare bird. I have to give Tillman credit for that. I do hope he rests in peace and I pray for his family and admirers during their time of grief.

Natalie: "And anyone who would ditch a multimillion dollar job and fame to follow a difficult and dangerous course in order to live up to his or her principles is a rare bird."

Natalie, spot on. As I said earlier, regardless of color, job description, or political persuasion, the man exhibited a rare and valuable trait: PERSONAL INTEGRITY.

He was a good man fightin for our counrty and we really will mis this soldier because he was the greatest

he was a good man i hope people relize what they have lost!! a great man of god!! well bye now!!!

I am sickened by those who feel that they have the right ot judge Pat Tillman or his motives.

The man joined the army because he was sickened by what terrorists did to over 2500 innocent civilians working in the twin towers, and those on the flights that crached into the Pentagon and the Pennsylvania countryside.

If you think you have the right to judge Tillman... GO to ground Zero. read the stories of those who died there... of those who died trying to save others, and of those relative and friends who knew them.

Listen to the tapes of the workers who called home to say goodbye because they knew they couldn't get out of the building. Listen to the audio of bodies hitting the pavement because it was preferable to jump than to burn to death.

Get real.

Those who judge Tillman, have no idea what the hell they're talking about. If you haven't gone to ground Zero and stood in the HOLE... then you have no rights. You should not be allowed to have an opinion because it has NO (zero) real perspective.

IF you are voicing your opinion here and you haven't been to one of the crash sites... then you are really pathetic. Grow up and BE part of America, not part of America's ignorant population.

I went to Ground Zero a few months after the attacks. Very moving.

Innocents died simply because they showed up for work that day. Firefighters and police died trying to save them.

Pat Tillman, and the thousands of others like him who signed up in the days, weeks, and months after 9/11, are all heroes. They made a choice to avenge the dead and defend their country. It doesn't matter what demographic they belonged to.

Just reported on CNN that his last words were....

'Cease fire! Friendlies! I am Pat (expletive) Tillman damn it!'"

Am I the only one who see's the typical jock conceit in his last words?

I've read about 75 comments on the death of a man who gave up a very enriching career to be a soldier for his country. He volunteered to fight in a war that - well in my opinion, he should have thought twice. But nevertheless, he did die in the service of his country.

All I can say is that whatever law was applied to that putz Phelps who tries to piss on the graves of those who die for their country ought be applied here. I am rarely disgusted by what I read in the comments list. But I am honestly disgusted.

Interesting how little so many of you appreciate the soldiers of your own country being willing to die to protect your sorry asses. It's one thing to criticize a war - it is quite another to spit at those who die in it believing they are defending you. Do you really deserve the freedom you have?

Ruvy, Just found this thead. Excellent comment.

Shark, after reading your comments on this thead I say to you with sincerity. "BRAVO". I have made negative comments directed at you in the past and now I find myself in a situation of apology. Also have not seen comments from you recently. Hope all is well. OK, Ruvy made me say this.

Read about some little Ms. Diva Hoe today. The AP said that if human debrea would facilitate a new definition for Webster's that this Diva Hoe could be found under toilet seats or swimming in the bowl eating contents that may remain. My snack this evening will be rum and prunes.

sr

Thanks for drawing my attention to this old post. Gives a whole different view of Shark. What happened between 2004 and today to change him from someone who could see the outrageousness of MacDiva's behavior to someone who sounds like MacD's crazier cousin?

BTW, is that quote from #74 for real? I know Tillman's death was from friendly fire, but why didn't his last words come out sooner if that's what they were?

Dave

Nalle;

Get involved with ancient posts much to make more of your snide, childish remarks?

And what do you know about Mac Diva, since she was banned several months before your first appearance on BC?

BTW, your jealousy of Shark's superior writing skills and sense of humor is extremely transparent; and if Mac Diva were still around, she would easily expose your shallow imagination.

I've heard the horror stories, MCH. Sometimes MacDiva is mentioned in the context of things like "no, MCH is a worthless crank, but he isn't nearly as bad as MacDiva."

Dave

Dave. Would like to know where the Shark is. This is Shark attack in reverse. Shark surface please.

Dave, Do you watch future weapons on the discovery channel?

sr

Shark was here a couple of days ago. I'm sure he'll resurface.

Sorry, SR. I don't really have time to watch TV except for a few selected things.

Dave

I guess the reason we lionize Tillman is because so much money was involved, suggesting that sacrificing money is the highest sacrifice. Of course, many soldiers sacrifice their families, spouses, children, careers, etc., but this is so common that we no longer make special notice of it. This suggests that our special attention to Tillman is testimony to how rare and unusual it is, in these days, for a person with money or power to surrender them on behalf of his country, his community.

It was not always so. In WW2 everyone felt duty-bound to do their part. Famous actors joined the service, often in combat roles. Jimmy Stewart was rejected as 4F because he was too skinny, so he went on a weight-gain diet and became a well-known pilot flying combat missions. Baseball ceased because the players all enlisted. My older brothers dropped out of college to fight in the Pacific. No automobiles were made from 1941 to 1945. No childrens toys were made. Gas, tires, meat, etc., were rationed so that soldiers would have the best and most of everything

What changed? Why do the rich and powerful so consistently dodge national service? Why do we let them get away with it? Why is it considered an act requiring special attention when a rich or famous man joins the Army? Why do we voluntarily make excuses for the powerful and their children who do not serve?

Some would say we are not as worthy as our predecessors. Some would say we are an inferior society. Some would say we are in decline.

I have to point out that the rich and powerful generally aren't in the age range to volunteer for military service. In all but a very few cases - mostly in professional sports - people in the 18-25 age range that most recruits come from just don't have much money.

In WW2 the need for military manpower was much greater and most of those rich and famous folks who volunteered were considerably older than Pat Tillman. Many of them were even outside the normal age range for recruits or disqualified for health reasons, but were let into the military primarily for publicity purposes.

Pat Tillman's choice to serve in the military is certainly admirable, but on a statistical basis it may not be as significant or unusual as it seems.

Dave

Dave says..."I have to point out that the rich and powerful generally aren't in the age range to volunteer for military service. In all but a very few cases"

Lets see Bush's daughters go over there in uniform even if it's just in the capacity of being observers, but stationed with the actual fighting troops, and see how fast the war ends... or moves back to Afghanistan where it belongs looking for bin Laden!

Solus mei sententia
Jet

Sounds like a plan to me, Jet. They ought to volunteer to do something at the very least. I wouldn't want to see them with a gun in their hand, but they could do USO tours (stripping?) or do some humanitarian aid volunteer work or somesuch.

Dave

The last exchange aroused my curiosity about what the twins who are now 25 are doing.

Jenna is teaching public school in DC. Barbara is working as in an AIDS clinic in Africa.

Not exactly serving in Iraq, but certainly serving humanity in two of the more dangerous places on earth.

Dave

I guess they've got better things to do.

RIP PAT. WILL NOT FORGET YOU.

"I have to point out that the rich and powerful generally aren't in the age range to volunteer for military service. In all but a very few cases - mostly in professional sports - people in the 18-25 age range that most recruits come from just don't have much money."

Bullshit, Nalle.

Most of the conservative chicken-hawks who dodged the draft during the Vietnam War were of military age with rich and powerful connections, buying their way out of it while those less fortunate died face down in the mud over there in their place.

To name just a few:
Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft, Paul Wolfowitz, Karl Rove, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, Steve Forbes, Trent Lott, Phil Gramm, Bill Bennett, Dick Armey, et al...

Do you ever give it a rest?

And do you know that those people you list were in more of a position to buy or influence their way out of military service than an equal number of democrats or just a random sampling of people in that age range during the Vietnam era?

The only one with obvious megawealth you list is Steve Forbes who did 6 years service in the National Guard with an honorable discharge.

All the rest got legitimate draft exemptions just like thousands and thousands of others during the war.

Dave

You forgot Ted Nugent. Always makes me laugh when you lump him in with politicians.

Forbes, Bennett and Limbaugh aren't exactly real politicians either.

Dave

"You forgot Ted Nugent. Always makes me laugh when you lump him in with politicians."

I wasn't listing politicians, Sussman, I listed "conservative chicken-hawks," which includes the ilk of Limbaugh and Nugent because of their phoney flag-waving, bellicose pro-war pontifications, and loud self-proclamations of patriotism.

Another one would be Sylvester Stallone, who made a fortune with his Rambo movies, pretending to be a hero, but during Vietnam hid-out with student deferments; while many of the real heroes who couldn't afford to buy their way out, are homeless, living in cardboard shacks and suffering never-ending nightmares and PTSD.

Always makes me laugh when you pretend to be more of an expert than you are...

A student deferment is not 'hiding out'. It's always been the normal process for Americans seeking an education to go from high school to college. If, in the case of someone like Stallone, that qualified them for a student deferment. That's just the way it works. The government provided these deferments specificaly because they wanted to make sure that people could complete their college educations. Suggesting that deferments like this are 'hiding out' implies that you have a strong anti-intellectual, anti-education streak going, MCH.

Dave

Limbaugh? Stallone? Nugent? MCH, you might want to worry less about what people in the entertainment industry think. It's good for the heart.

Awaiting your next quote from me taken out of context and lined up with something obscure I said three months ago to paint me as a lying hypocrite,
--Suss

"A student deferment is not 'hiding out'."
- Dave Nalle

It is considering the fact that a college dorm 10,000 miles from Vietnam is almost as safe as a fortified compound 10,000 miles from Iraq...

We have no draft now, and the government had reasons for offering deferments then. Why don't you take it up with Secretary MacNamara - he's still alive.

And as I've said many times before, what fucking use would a 47 year old font designer/historian be in Iraq? I guess I could improve the font used for stenciling numbers on tanks. But even that job they wouldn't need me in the field for. If they sent me there I'd be putting real soldiers at risk trying to protect me.

Though I'll say here and now that I'll gladly provide any font customization that active duty servicemen need in the field for free. And my eldest daughter will be 18 in 4 years. If the military wants her they're welcome to try to convince her to join. I'll be behind them alll the way.

Dave

"And as I've said many times before, what fucking use would a 47 year old font designer/historian be in Iraq?"

Aw, but Nalle, you were only 33 during Desert Shield, well below the limit for enlistment. Would've been a perfect opportunity to put your money where your mouth is.

MCH, you were young enough to serve in Desert Shield too. Did you volunteer? Or do you not care about the people of Kuwait the same way you don't 'give a damn' about the people of Iraq?

And as for putitng my money where my mouth is, you have some very strange ideas of where my mouth is.

My mouth is opposed to military interventionism, so if I was to put my 'money where my mouth is' during Desert Shield it would have been to protest the war as a matter of principle.

BTW, how much money have you donated to anti-war protest groups, and how much time have you spent on the protest lines?

Dave

Ted Nugent is an asshole chickenhawk if I've ever seen one. Ted talks his tough talk about killing deer and wild boar and "Ay-rab ragheads" (i've heard him say so on the radio). However, when big bad Ted Nugent had his opportune time to back up his macho posturing by hooking up with the infantry in Vietnam, he discovered that fighting the yellowman in the jungles of 'Nam just wasn't his thing. Mmmmmmm?

Rush Limbaugh is no different. Rush stirs up the hatred for people who are against America's imperial wars of aggression while selling the myth that the killing and dying for 'Merrikan "freedom" 8,000 miles away in Iraq is every red-blooded 'Merrikan's God-bound duty. Everyone, that is, except Rush himself, of course, who found that the dirty, bloody and deadly fighting in Vietnam just wasn't for dear old Rush after all. Mmmmmmmm.


And, btw, Afghanistan is still a fucking mess today, barely different from when the Taliban ruled there and most likely will not get any better. Opium production flourishes more than ever before. Afghanis hate the Americans more than ever. What did Pat Tillman die for?

TommyD, have you ever considered that Vietnam ended over 30 years ago, and that what we fought for there and what we might be fighting for in the War on Terror are different things? You know it is possible to oppose one war and to support another. An awful lot of people had very good reasons for not supporting or participating in Vietnam and those reasons don't necessarily apply when dealing with other conflicts but were specific to the Vietnam war.

Dave

"An awful lot of people had very good reasons for not supporting or participating in Vietnam and those reasons don't necessarily apply when dealing with other conflicts but were specific to the Vietnam war."
- Dave Nalle, at the keyboard from his fortified compound in Texas

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake."
- John Kerry, testifying before congress in 1971 against the Vietnam War

It's starting to look like these comments belong on the "chickenhawk" article by Mr. Nalle, gentlemen. Whatever else he might have been Pat Tillman was no chickenhawk.

I'll say this much about compulsory military service and attending university. It is a lot fairer to all involved if all kids who hit 18 have to serve in the military, and can then attend university, if they wish, with generous stipends from the government, AFTER doing their hitch. That is more or less the system we have here and it generally results in a more serious, more mature university student. Had America had such a system in the early sixties, the anti-war movement would have developed very differently, and the universities today might not be inhabited by the denizens of the infantile left.

Very true, Ruvy. I'm against all conscription on principle, but if you must have it at all it needs to be universal and ideally offering more options than just service in the military. Having organizations like Job Corps and the Peace Corps as part of the system would be a very good thing.

Dave

But wouldn't that be embracing some socialist ideals on your part then, Dave? Job Corps, Peace Corps - not exactly your raging capitalism is it?

I think you missed the first part of my statement, Chris. I'm against all forms of conscription. But universal conscription is better than a draft like we had in Vietnam. And universal conscription with options other than the military is even better. But all forms of conscription are still violations of fundamental individual liberty.

Dave

Lets not get crazy now...MY ARMY has enough "goofballs" in it who don't really want to be here. A draft would make this problem even worse! I'm sure 1 in 10 potential draftees would be intelligent, hard working kids with goals in life...but they're not worth the other 90%!! That 90% can stay on the couch and keep complaining about a 'lack of jobs'

"And as I've said many times before, what fucking use would a 47 year old font designer/historian be in Iraq?"
- Dave Nalle

---------------------------

52-YEAR OLD FEMALE SOLDIER KILLED IN IRAQ
By DINESH RAMDE - Associated Press Writer - 09/29/06

MILWAUKEE -- Sgt. 1st Class Merideth Howard, 52, a turret gunner in the Army Reserve's 405th Civil Affairs Battalion, became on Sept. 8 the oldest female U.S. soldier killed in action since military operations began in Afghanistan and Iraq. A car bomber slammed into her vehicle, killing her and Staff Sgt. Robert Paul, 43, of The Dalles, Ore.

For Howard, age was never an issue, said her husband, Hugh Hvolboll, who moved with her to the Milwaukee suburb of Waukesha in 2004. "She did anything she wanted to," he said.

Howard held undergraduate and master's degrees in marine biology. When she discovered she was prone to seasickness, she switched careers and became a firefighter in Bryan, Texas, becoming the city's first female firefighter in 1978.

She was about 5'4" but she made up for her size with determination and a strength that matched her burly co-workers, recalled Bryan Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho.

Even so, some question why a woman her age would be called up to active duty. Her 78-year-old uncle, Herbert Kurtz, said he felt Howard was too old to dodge bullets. "I was drafted in the Korean War. Heck, at this rate, maybe they'll draft me again," he said.

Of the 66 women killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, 51 are 30 or younger, according to Judy Bellafaire, chief historian for the Women in Military Service for America Memorial Foundation in Washington, D.C. Four women, aged 41 to 44, were the oldest casualties before Howard.

Howard's friends and family say she knew the risks when she joined the Army Reserves in 1988. She planned to retire in two years at the 20-year mark, they say. "She had beautiful blue eyes," Hvolboll said. "We hit it off right away, like we'd known each other for years."

The couple dated for 14 years, marrying in December 2005 only when Howard found out she was being called up. Howard's lasting legacy, her husband said, is the love she had for friends, family and life.

--------------------------

Kinda puts your phoney "I'm too old" excuse into perspective...ehe, Nalle?

"deep down no one in America really gives a rat's ass about a bunch of people dying in Iraq. Half of us think they deserve it and the other half aren't paying attention most of the time."

Dave Nalle 47 year old font designer/historian