Oh, and did I mention that in addition to being a WHORE, Zimmerman is a fake, a fraud, and a motard window-licker who happened to be in the right place at the right time?

But really, the essential question for me is:

WWYT?

(What Would Yeagley Think?)

I really ought to write my own dictionary, my definition of things can be so different than the rest of the world.

To me, selling out does not mean promoting a product or something similiar. If a concert tour is 'sponsored by', I see that as the same as if there was a commercial on tv and someone's music was being played to be associated with that product. They're the same but they're not selling out. What would be selling out to me, is if that song was written especially for the commercial, rather than the corporation paying for an already existing song.

But I'm not necessarily against selling out either. I'd most likely do it if I was able to write good songs.

Now to me, the TRUE definition of selling out can best be illustrated by Aerosmith. When you start out as a hard rock/blues band and that's how you establish your career, and that's what you become known for, it's my opinion you sell out when you gravitate your music to pop/top 40 like 'don't wanna close my eyes'. What ever happened to the true Aerosmith of 'Dream On' and 'Toys in the Attic'?? You've adjusted your 'voice' from what you really are, to what the masses wanna hear. THAT is selling out.

The true Kings and Queens of selling out would have to be Aerosmith, Phil Collins and Elton John.

Once you've Disneyfied your music, it's all over and Goodbye Yellow Brick Road.

"Twenty five years ago, it was a given that any star --especially rock stars -- who did commercials....."

more from Musuem of Stupidity

Boomcrash, I hope your "Dictionary" has more clarity and consistency than your comment indicates.

Also can't wait to read your definition of "INTEGRITY".

Best,
Shark

I'm not sure how to make it clearer, Shark. To me the definition of selling out is when someone gets into the creative field for 'artistic expression' but then they create work that they feel people want to hear rather than tapping into what they really want to express. If that's not clear, well then I never expected my dictionary to be a top seller anyway.

I would define integrity as holding to a certain ideal. A freedom from outside influence.

Shark's defending the integrity of music! I'm on the FLOOR! Musicians, rock stars, these folks work hard for the money they make and soul-selling is STEP ONE. It doesn't happen at the end of a successful career but all through it.

Do you think this is new? that Mozart and Beethoven and Bach didn't participate in this same process? Have you never heard of commissioned work? I earned my living that way for 28 years, and I was mighty tired of it too, but one does what one must to survive, and yes, it's all about the money and always has been. Stars are highly driven people, and money is their reward and measure.

Bob Dylan doesn't even exist, and this guy Zimmerman who's been playing him for 40 years is a deeply troubled sociopath who lacks basic social skills to this day. This isn't a comment on his writing, which I've always found to be deeply misunderstood and profoundly phony. To me, Bob Dylan is all about the beat. Sorry, Bob, but a poet you're not. Still, I like him fine. He's fine. And now he's in a commercial. WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Three people are going to burned alive tomorrow.

Btw, Al, thanks for bringing my friend Ran into the mix. Randy Newman is the only "celeb" I ever wanted to meet. This man is truly funny. Yet when he goes on a talk show, he plays, they clap, he leaves. Why? He's the funniest interview ever and he's brilliant on his feet. I could read his lyrics without the music and still be entertained. Randy has never been shy about telling it as it is. It's money that matters in the USA and that's why "This is My Country," one of the most cynical songs ever written, is the folksy theme of Country Insurance. If these folks ever listened to the second verse they'd die. Here's a subversive son of a bitch who knows something about American intelligence: it's absent. I guarantee you that when Ran saw Bob in the Vic commercial, he did what I did. He laughed. Real hard, shook his head, laughed some more. "Sold out." Al!

Randy Newman="You've Got a Friend In Me"=serious Pixaration

Shark, where did God write this one down? "Marketing is Satan's method of stealing your soul."

Marketing means trying to persuade consumers to voluntarily make a choice. By definition, this does not involve stealing.

This is just nonsense as well: "As soon as you get paid to say something, everything you say in the future is suspect." Again, just arbitrary pinko prejudice with no rational basis.

"Shark's defending the integrity of music!"

Actually, I'm defending the integrity of people who think it's their job to have something to say regardless of who they piss off. There's a difference between Steve Earle or Bruce Springsteen -- and say -- Justin Timberlake.

And CW, the difference in a commission for a piano concerto and a song used as background to sell a product should be obvious.

If not, phtttt... I give up.

BTW: I think 'music' is a relatively grey area in the 'sell-out' category, and unlike Boomcrash, I think a musician writing music for a film is fine; that's their "job."

And BTW, this constant cry that "It's about money! It's always been about money!" -- is, IMO, the reason this country is going to hell.

There are many things I refuse to do for money, but try finding someone under 30 to say that.

"Integrity" is what's missing from our culture, and making excuses for its demise is a cop-out.

Somebody has got to start saying "NO".

It would have been nice if Zimmerman had.

Al, "Marketing" has turned our population into a mass of brain-dead, sleepwalking consumers of crap.

It's Satan incarnate.

re: "As soon as you get paid to say something, everything you say in the future is suspect."

Man, it doesn't get much more self-evident, and if you don't get it, well, I can't help no matter what I say.


"Hi, I'm Al Barger for Pinko Ideas.org! Visit our web site and become a liberal socialistic anti-gun tree hugging fanatic."

(spokesman was reimbursed for testimonial)

(Al cashes check and begins to wonder if his fans will ever believe another thing he says.)

Well obviously MY words would be hereafter suspect if I became a paid spokesman for your Pinko Ideas organization, as it would obviously run directly counter to my personal beliefs. If, on the other hand, the NRA put me on the payroll to go stumping for them, that would be something else entirely.

Marketing has not turned our population into anything. You are essentially implying that we are helpless little consumer bots.

We are not. I don't buy everything I see on the tv, nor does anyone else have to. Indeed, advertising has many times prompted me NOT to buy or vote for a product or candidate.

People respond to the marketing and go to those Disney movies because they LIKE them. They LIKE Big Macs and Guess jeans. Nobody's FORCING them.

Now, you pinko types like forcing people to buy and do things, paying for benefits at the force of a tax-collector's gunpoint. But advertisers work by VOLUNTARY PERSUASION.

How odd.

Shark says: you don't allow your material to be used to market a product NO MATTER WHAT.

Then Shark says: I think a musician writing music for a film is fine; that's their "job."

Then Shark says I'm inconsistent. I'd like to remind people here that a film IS a product.

Re: comment 14- Also, taking a commission to write a piano concerto most likely means being expected to write something in the style that the patron wants to hear. Otherwise, perhaps your pure artistic muse would lead you to write a symphony or an opera instead.

On the face of it, it would seem that writing for a patron would likely compromise your pure artistic vision far more than licensing a piece of music for a commercial from an album you made years ago.

Integrity to WHAT idea is being compromised Shark?

and while I'm thinking of it, in addition to a film being a product, in Disney's case, is often created with the sole intent of being nothing more than a 2 hour commercial to help push the forthcoming action figures, video games, bedsheets and pillowcases, cereal boxes, keyrings, stuffed animals, dolls, games, puzzles, books, etc

okay, I just scroll-wheeled through all of this since I've never cared (read: gave a flying fuck) for Bob Dylan other than Nico saying that her career goal was to be a singer like Bob Dylan.

Now, if it was Fugazi, I could understand.

But as Burchill and Parsons said about Bob Dylan's motorcycle crash, "close, but no cigar".

Yeah, I think I'm done with this one.

It's a good point that Bob Dylan is/was a character invented by Bobby Zimmerman, so we shouldn't be so hasty to accuse a fictional person of "selling out".
Still, it feels a bit like finding out your father is a serial killer. I'm old enough to remember Bob's fiery protest songs (including lines like "money doesn't talk, it swears", ironically enough) from the early 60s, and THAT Bob Dylan, fictional or not, wouldn't have done it. Oh tempora, oh mores!

And I reeeally don't want to think he was just marketing to the masses when he generated songs like this:

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

I don't think he was marketing to the masses then. I weep that he is now. And oh, those masses. :(

Has anyone hear heard the song "Hooker with a Penis" by Tool? I think that this song gives a different perspective on what selling out is. My summary of the song: Bob Dylan is all he ever SOLD us.

Natalie- Perhaps you should get some Gatorade in you or something. Between all the weeping and puking here at Blogcritics today, you're going to be all dehydrated. Also, is your public display of supposed bereavement supposed to constitute proof that Dylan is wrong?

I still have not seen any explanation in this thread at all of what specifically Dylan has done wrong. Shark said something about losing his integrity by doing a commercial, but no one can tell me what principle he has betrayed.

Again I ask: WHERE'S THE BEEF?

Shark said something about losing his integrity by doing a commercial, but no one can tell me what principle he has betrayed.

Al, if ya gotta have Integrity defined for ya, well...

Nevermind.

"Integrity" is not just a free floating concept, Shark. The question is, integrity to WHAT SPECIFIC IDEA?

"Integrity: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. "

What code of ethics (that he ever agreed to) has Dylan violated?

Very interesting post, Al, and some thought-provoking, counterintuitive points I am still contemplating. I don't think any category of revenue generators is automatically a "sell out," although how a given song (or whatever artifact of popular culture) is used can be so contrary to its own message, or the general message of the artist that it could create a cognitive dissonance that would approximate "selling out."

These issues are all the more important now and in the coming future with the business model of the music industry turning away from record sales and more toward sponsorships, corporate support, even forms of patronage. Don't artists deserve to make a living from their art?

Oh, there are PLENTY of commercial uses of songs that I find questionable aesthetically. There are also some I find questionable on a personal level for the artist. I raised an eyebrow when I saw the Who being sponsored by a beer company for example, given Townshend's very public alcohol problems. Perhaps Budweiser could use "However Much I Booze" for a commercial.