Ha Ha Eric. Tell me something that I dont know. Like you've got backstage passes you'll be sending my way. Meanwhile, was there any need to repost that ridiculous and senseless article of yours again? I can't imagine you enjoy showing your flaws. Just when I was beginning to think you might have some sense afterall. I guess if it pleases you to do so, oh well, we all must get our kicks some way. I'm done with picking it apart as it can be even by a 2 yr old:)

By the way, is that the 2nd tour pic? Or just an old pic? I suggest you find a way to go watch Madonna. Sadly, I am not a member of ICON so I could not get pre-sale tickets. I was reluctant to join cos I felt it was being run by the incompetents at music today. Just my luck that I miss out on pre-sale. I hope to get my tix on Friday morning. Fingers crossed.

The article has not been posted here until now. It praises both damsels, though apparently not sufficiently for your taste. I honestly can't imagine what you would object to, apart from the line about Madonna not being blessed with great natural talent, which besides being true, is in the context of a compliment about what she has done with that talent. Oh well.

The pic is from Vanity Fair '02, btw.

Toxic has "with a strong, throaty vocal"??? I like the song (but the video looks like they didn't have much of an SFX budget), but the vocals are heavily processed - in a cool way, at times.

Strong for her anyway! The vocals are certainly processed but all her vocals are processed. More importantly, did I call tha or what? That was written in November and HAS become a huge hit. I rock and am not ashamed to say so.

Aah, vanity fair, I think I have that issue, must check. Confused me cos its similar to the kinda look of the tour pic.

Eric, I am not getting into that discussion with you again. What is true and is not true in your opinion on music as I am sure I have stated before, is irrelevant to me. I don't hold you in high regard when it comes to your articles and opinions on music. So, I'm afraid that you have no credibility on the issue in my opinion.

But thats just my opinion and you no doubt feel the same about my opinions. So, we must agree to disagree on this, sweetie:)

Referring to Eric's post, Sarah says, "I'm done with picking it apart as it can be even by a 2 yr old" (she had one of those goofy smiley faces, too). I had my 2-year-old nephew Skippy take a look at Eric's article, and Skippy says "It rocks, baby" (actually, it sounded more like "ih wocks, beebee," but no matter). So, Sarah, I'm afraid we must once again disagree with you.

One of these days, Madonna will have to reinvent herself and become a musician.

Thanks Duane, and a special shoutout to the neph!

Duane, thank you for your predictable contribution. I'm sorry to shock you but I am not going to argue with you about this. Been there, done that. I am delighted that M is not a musician in your opinion. I think you are one of the more foolish people on this site as I have said from day one so your opinion on anything is a nonsense. You are entitled to it but it means nothing. So, thank you for the compliment. Clearly your nephew at 2 is already foolish, Shame he could not break the pattern.

I dont know what the big deal is here. Eric, you can keep writing your nonsensical drivel and parading as some sort of responsible, sensbile music journalist, but let me assure you that you are not. Thats my opinion. You'll be amazed how many people share my opinion, even a journalist with almost same views as you on some things but not with the same level of ignorance and irresponsibility when putting it to print. He just can't be bothered to write on here. So why not leave Madonna alone and worry about how you can reinvent yourself as a respectable journalist. Duane, can just reinvent himself as a person with a brain and stop trying so hard to feel amongst. If you notice I ignore you. But once there is Madonna or Sandra Smallson, you rear your ugly head. You must have a permanent hard on and may desire a threesome. On behalf of both let me assure you we would rather sleep with Ellen Degeneres.

I watched a recent interview and she said she's been in this business 20 years, she has nothing to prove, those who do not think she is a credible musician/artist never thought she was from day one and those who think she is have always thought she was or either have come to think. Either way, she will do what she wants and believes in her own talent and people can keep on talking. That's how I feel now after the first time I joined this site. She has nothing to prove. So why should I waste my time arguing about her with a collection of narrow minded self important, self righteous u know whats..neither of us will convince each other. Let's move on. Hopefully, this will disappear.

Thanks anyway for info on the tour, though I knew that already:)

Sandra, back to the same old: don't be such a flagrant idiot. The only necesary "reinvention" I am aware of is how you deal with people who simply disagree with you. Do not call me "irresponsible" just because you do not agree with my opinion on matters of taste. Your disjointed thrashing over such things is a grim alloy of logorrhea and masturbation.

Eric, go and read Tom Johnson's post. It is for "critics" like you. Though he did not mean it for you, I think those he refers to are made of the same ilk as your irresponsible self. I wish I was calling you irresponsible because you did not agree with me. Sadly, its worse than that. I am calling you irresponsible because it is my opinion that you are an irresponsible journalist for all the many reasons mentioned in that pitchfork media post. You suffer from all those issues.

I am sure if you are true to yourself, you will realise that my lack of respect for you as a music journalist clearly does not stem from the fact that we have different tastes in music. Let me assure you, that, that is not the case. Afterall, like you said, you like Madonna. You have even confessed to liking some of her sons, so what on earth are you on about tastes for? LOL. If it makes you sleep better at night to think that I call you irresponsible based on diff tastes, then sweet dreams darling. In the cold light of day, I call you all those things because from your articles I have read, that is how I see you.

I dont know why I am even bothering arguing with you about your abilities or lack there of as a journalist. It's not like you are a well known respected journalist anyway. It's not like you've reached the pinnacle of your profession. You are probably only regarded as a journalist on this site, in your household and the rare occassion when you get a shot at mainstream media publications. So really, your opinions lack bite on any level and you do not deserve or warrant teh attention I am giving you on this matter. This is clearly a waste of energy on both our parts. Why don't we just move on. We were getting along just fine, I thought..:)

typos..teh=the...sons=songs

Keep digging Sandra, your pit of ignorance and foolishness looms ever higher over your head. You know nothing about me, my background, my accomplishments, or my status. You don't know what I do, what I have done, who I am, or apparently, much of anything at all.

So why not leave Madonna alone and worry about how you can reinvent yourself as a respectable journalist.

Jesus. Not that Eric needs my help, but just what is the deal? You make this sort of personal attack because you disagree with his opinion of MADONNA? Like, could there be anything more ridiculous?

Eric: You know nothing about me, my background, my accomplishments, or my status. You don't know what I do, what I have done, who I am, or apparently, much of anything at all.

Sandra: And I am the better for it.

Hit a nerve didn't I? The man doth protest too much.

BHW, what is even more ridiculous is you jumping in here clearly misunderstanding the surrounding story of this spat. I am sorry if you find me ridiculous but that's what I think about Eric and have thought that about him for some time now. It's not news to him so I dont know what the current over reaction is about.

I am satisfied that Eric knows and I know that my feelins on his views on music matters do not rest solely on his opinions on Madonna. If you or anyone else want to believe that, or if Eric wants to believe that instead of searching within and seeing his faults thats up to him. We are all entitled to our opinions. He thinks I know nothing about anything, I think he is all I have said above and worse. What's the big deal?!

Bhw, atleast you should have done me the honour of being unpredictable:) Comment 10 by Eric is not a personal attack ? But you jump on my observation on his lack of ability as a personal attack? Please, spare me the misguided indignation. We've all been here before.

Sandra, I have tried to be friendly with you and treat you as something other than a jabbering loon. I now see the error of my ways and have reinvented myself as someone who will not make the same mistake again.

My heart bleeds. Now, be courageous enough to take the 1st step towards reinventing yourself as a journalist of any kind infact.

What Madonna really needs are SONGS. When was the last time she wrote a real song? I can't think of any since Dick Tracy.

One more big slut routine isn't going to help her. For one, she's already long since done that to death. Also, there's going to be diminishing returns on that stuff with age.

She and Britney got some publicity with their silly stage kiss, but so what? It was really more a source of MOCKERY than anything positive for either career- and deservedly so.

Did I mention that Madonna needs to write some SONGS if she's going to be, you know, a MUSICIAN? No amount of hype, no fancy costume changes, no lesbian schtick will cover for the fact that she hasn't written a real song in a dozen years.

you talkin' about what she's written or what she's recorded?

there were some good songs on Ray of Light.

...don't know if she wrote 'em though.

There was a SONG on Ray of Light? I guess I haven't listened to the whole thing, so maybe something slipped by me. The song or two I heard didn't sound like anything, but I can't say I listened real close.

...can't wait till she comes out with her EC covers record: Imperial Bedroom.

Oh no, not the Madonna take again.

Every time Madonna comes up I'm drawn to the opinion that I haven't heard anything from her since the 80's that I really care for.

Unfortunately she doesn't believe in sharing much of her newer music with the legal online music streaming venues (Rhapsody, Napster, etc) and there's no way I'm not interested in dropping $10-15 on something from her. I mean, she was "OK" in the 80's, even had a few good songs, but fast forward to 2004 and I don't see her relevance any more except as playing her old stuff.

The Britney tonguing was interesting, though, but it didn't have much to do with music, nor was the song very good IMO.

Of course, in Madonna's defense, I can say the same about many other bands from this era, that are still clinging onto the 80's.

With that said, it's one thing to passionately stick up for an artist, but when someone starts telling a good writer he is nothing more than a hack when there are thousands of articles to factually disprove this theory, it does look like that person is a "jabbering loon" and I might add: a fan with an unhealthy obsession.

Wouldn't it be more polite to simply agree to disagree?

Now I will expect to be flamed.

There you've been found out Al Barger. You yourself carried away by the "hype" you so dislike:) Only for one to come to find that you, and I QUOTE " Can't say I listened real close":) to the ray of light Album. So, how can you confidently state that she has not written a song in 12 years? It's criticism like that, that causes people like me to respond. It's not in whether you like an Artist or not. It's baseless criticism which is so easy to spot such as yours.

Mark, she did co-write most of the songs on ROL.

I have no problem with most of Madonna's antics Al. I see some of them as all part of the show. The fact that she burned crosses in the Like a Prayer video did not make the song bad. The fact that she was kissing women in the Justify my love video, did not make the song bad. If she likes being provocative and pushing people's buttons then let her be. You don't have to like it. But to leap from there and say she hasn't written a song in 12 years really tarnishes your opinion and makes it not worth taking on board.

For me, some of the publics perception of Madonna always seems like the same problem Pete sampras had. Sampras in my opinion is the greatest tennis player ever. Some never thought so because they found him boring, he wasn't charismatic and they refuse to accept the completeness of his game because his serve was huge. They forgot that he had every shot in the book. They say he had no backhand. He had a backhand but compared to the rest of his arsenal it was a relative weakness but it was a good shot. He had a whole arsenal of shots but because his serve was huge, his critics often claimed he was all about the serve. You do not win 14 slams and remain number 1 for 6 yrs in a row if all you've got is a big serve.

Same thing with Madonna. She has written and co-written some pop classics that live on and WILL live on. She has remained at the top and/or thereabouts worldwide of her profession for 20 years. She has sold approximately 200 million albums. Her accomplishments are endless and she is no doubt an Icon. She has been in the biz for 20 years. You dont achieve that sort of longevity if all you do is play a big slut routine or lesbian antics. You and I know that Al.
Its been 20 years. If that was all she was good for, she wouldn't have lasted this long. But because she was a woman and rightly or wrongly thought that to be heard in this business and to stand her ground she had to elevate herself from the norm even if it meant doing things that would outrage the old boys club she did those things. What does she get for it? people like you who are unable to see beyond that and see that this is a musician who has longevity, has written and performed classic songs and is still experimental with her music contrary to what some of the press say.

I dont say she is the greatest singer or dancer or writer, etc etc. but to say that a woman who has been in this business for 20 years having written classic songs and performed them the world over and is known as the most succesful female artist ever is not a musician in your mind, or is only good for self-promotion or whatever nonsense Madonna critics always come up with for whatever warped reason, really beggars belief and belittles your mind. Nobody has to like anybody, but credit must be given to where credit is due. If Madonna were a man, there would be no one saying she has no talent. That's all I've got to say about that.

There's enough music in the world for us all. Appreciate the one you want to appreciate:)

Tdavid, am I not entitled to think that Eric is a hack? Must I think what YOU think? Must I like the articles you like? It always amazes me how you all are so blinded to your double standards. You say I call eric a hack because he disagrees with me. Yet Eric who a few days ago was two topics from calling me a genius has now decided I am a jabbering loon who knows nothing about anything BECAUSE I do not agree with him. oooh, great critic eric, you great critic u! This is clearly proof that you dont allow your personal feelings to cloud your judgment;) LOL..Puhleeze. I have asked him to read Tom Johnson's post on the pitchfork media people. That's the first step to healing himself. He is not the only one. Al I can't say I have listened closely but I have an opinion Barger may need to read it too. Everybody needs to read it.

You, Tdavid, have called me a fan with an unhealthy obssession because I think Eric is not worth a minute. Do you see the double standards here? lol..I doubt it. Agree to disagree? We long since did that and if you are so interested, look up other topics, you will see that I do not rate Erics opinions on many things. So this fantasy you all have to pin EVERYTHING on our disagreement about Madonna is really amusing.

No, actually, Sandra, here's what I'm saying:

What have you written or edited that makes you some sort of professional writing-related critic? You post like you've worked for some major publishing house for years. Here's just some of what you wrote:

Eric, you can keep writing your nonsensical drivel and parading as some sort of responsible, sensbile music journalist, but let me assure you that you are not. Thats my opinion. You'll be amazed how many people share my opinion, even a journalist with almost same views as you on some things but not with the same level of ignorance and irresponsibility when putting it to print. He just can't be bothered to write on here.

Thanks TD, I appreciate your carrying the flame so ardently. I, unfortunately, can't pursue the topic at the moment because I am preparing drivel to foist upon a major media outlet.

And great last line!

The fact that she burned crosses in the Like a Prayer video did not make the song bad. The fact that she was kissing women in the Justify my love video, did not make the song bad.

And they didn't make the songs good, either.

I think Madonna has very marginal musical talents. But she has great business acumen and marketing smarts, as well as an incredibly strong work ethic. She is entirely self-made in a male-dominated industry, and she deserves credit for that.

However, her longevity in the industry has to do with popularity, which is not necessarily the same thing as quality, musically speaking.

Sarah invokes Pete Sampras' tennis career as a sports analog to Madonna's music career when she says, "You do not win 14 slams and remain number 1 for 6 yrs in a row if all you've got is a big serve." Sarah, this is entirely fallacious reasoning. When Sampras wins, he wins by an objective criterion, namely, the score. It doesn't matter how his hair looks, or if he has a flair for color coordination, or how many shoe commercials he appears in. He is successful at tennis because he is good at tennis. Our opinion of his ability must be consistent with his win-loss record.

OK, that should be easy enough for you to understand. Now, next point. You think Madonna has a "score," too, namely, her record sales. You want to equate that with her ability as a musician. That's your error. If there were some kind of contest, one-on-one, where her musical ability were pitted against other musicians, she would suffer countless humiliating defeats. Most high-school marching band members would "wipe the court" with her.

And yet, Madonna sells records. We know that. That's the end result of marketing, connections, a good business sense, a nose for style and trends, and, most importantly, IMAGE. She has the financial wherewithal to hire good writers, producers, and musicians. I don't deny that she's successful. I maintain only that her success is not strongly correlated with her musical aptitiude. Allow us to respect Madonna as a successful businesswoman, while acknowledging that she is a musical weakling.

And I would really recommend that you try to keep a lid on your penchant for personal criticism. Although you feign indifference, your long-winded posts suggest otherwise. Why not try to preserve what little credibility you have left and play nice for a change?

I see that I am echoing bhw. Hat's off to you, bhw.

I see that I am echoing bhw. Good call, bhw.

Thank you twice, duane.

If nothing else, Madonna is a cultural lightening rod.

Now if Eric would just hurry up and finish "searching within and seeing his faults" ....

duane - I like your points, but I have to ask: am I missing something here? Who is "Sarah"? Do you mean Sandra?

TDavid, yeah. Sorry Sandra.

Tdavid, I guess you and your cohorts are all musicians that is why you all have legs to stand on when you tell me what musical ability Madonna or any other artsit has. Ofcourse, you are all speaking from a professional point of view because you are all musicians? and Politicians, and filmmakers, etc etc. LOL. I can not believe you people type these things out and dont see how foolish you sound.

Eric Olsen is an irresponsible journalist and should re read the pitchfork media post over and over again so that in his next polluted piece via the main stream media he may become more self aware. Thank goodness he is a complete nobody. Just imagine if he was of any significance in the broad span of things?! What a travesty. Same goes for a number of you. End of story.

The rest of you flatter yourselves if you think I am going to argue with you about Madonna as a musician again. Why argue with people who have set views on things and who labour under misunderstandings and misconceptions before they even type the first word. Madonna is a musician whether you like it or not. If she does not deserve to be one in your view, too bad. Live with it. She more than deserves to be one in my view and in the view of many others. Diff strokes for diff folks. I leave this discussion. You can all continue writing about Madonna if you like. The level of stupidity is as always, overwhelming but what's new.

And duane, can u stop stalking me? Why follow me around this site? Geez. Do u have no shame? I have been ignoring you and yet you insist on following me everywhere seeking my attention. Take that appendage BHW with you when you disappear.

Good comeback. I stand corrected.

Um, duane? Does Sandra know something I don't know about us?

Welcome to the Stalker Genitalia Club, Duane!

I was introduced to Sandra's World (see #39) a couple months ago. Party time, excellent! Excellent!

Seriously, it's odd how Sandra sort of reminds me of Madonna's music career.

Now maybe I should go on and on for two paragraphs about how stupid "all" of us are and silly and well really none of us know who we are because this is just one long, long, long ass run on sentence with no purpose but all of you don't get it because I'm not going to stay here and argue with any of you, even if you write back then I'll still say Madonna is the best and you all have small packages and are stalking me and need to get lifes and I love this site but I think you are all clueless and Eric's writing sucks and I know because I have a friend who is a journalist who said so and Phillip doesn't understand religion and I just can't talk to any of you because you keep following me around here and I'm going to keep writing until I've made my point at least ten times, no wait, make that fifteen times because if you don't like Madonna you all must have problems having sex and I'll just keep writing and maybe this is really just a keyboard exercise and --

(gasp)

Madonna and Sandra in a tree ...

Add "new material needed" to the shopping list for both of them.

Oh, and you too, bhw! Sorry, don't want to leave anybody, male or female, out of The Club.

Hey Guys,go easy on simple Sandra.She is
the best comedian at BC.

I tend to want to be nice to you Ms Sandra, but my patience with women claiming or implying that they are being "stalked" online, and particularly on this site wears REAL thin, real quick. That crap rates just about as abusive and dishonest as Diva's constant whining about "racism."

This is a public space with public comments. If you make strong, obnoxious comments like yours in this thread, you're going to get mocked and criticized.

Expect it and accept it, or shut your piehole. Usually you have something interesting and worthwhile to add to the conversation, but you just seem to have kind of lost your mind here.

Thanks for the welcome, TDavid. I take it I'm in good company.

Madonna has been voted one of the 50 greatest and most influential musicians of all time by a panel of acclaimed musicians. Bono, Chrissie Hynde, Elvis Costello and 52 others.

They got her most vocal fan to write something on her. By the looks of it they should have searched you out Sandra.

I am narrow minded. I like Jazz. Miles Davis type jazz. I do not like the new breed of jazz musicians. I do not like pop music or rap or r&b or country music.

I am not disingenuos in any sense to say Madonna is not a musician. I do not own any of her Albums except her Immaculate Collection and the ballad compilation. Mostly for the wife but I do enjoy some of it. I would attend her concert if the tickets did not cost a whopping $300. The wife is attending the concert. She is taking our twin daughters. That is $900. If I went along, it would be $1200. I have a mortgage to pay off.

Sandra, I like your post on comment 35. We can all give opinions on anything to everything. It may not be a professional opinion but it is an opinion. A professional opinion has been given by 55 of Madonna's fellow musicians and I am sure you have a smile on your face like the cat that got the cream. Maybe you do not care what the bloggers are saying. You may see the RollingStones article as a statement of fact as far as you are concerned. Check it out.

I am impressed that Ms Smallson took the high road in this discussion and left you guys to it. It really was an unnecessary discussion.

For the record, I am not on Sandra's side or any side for that matter. These are just my thoughts on this topic. I simply found it an amusing coincidence that after seeing this topic for the last few days on this site, I should stumble upon RollingStones with musicians calling Madonna a musician and rightly so for Pete sake.

I am impressed that Ms Smallson took the high road in this discussion

Lomu, I can't tell if you're tongue is in your cheek or not! If it's not, then that's freakin' hil-ar-ious.

Yes, Lomu, let's reminisce and take a little stroll down Sandra's "high road." Shall we? Come along, Lomu.

"But once there is Madonna or Sandra Smallson, you rear your ugly head. You must have a permanent hard on and may desire a threesome. On behalf of both let me assure you we would rather sleep with Ellen Degeneres."

"I can not believe you people type these things out and dont see how foolish you sound."

"Eric Olsen is an irresponsible journalist...."

"Thank goodness he is a complete nobody."

"The level of stupidity is as always, overwhelming...."

"And duane, can u stop stalking me?"

"Take that appendage BHW with you when you disappear."

"...was there any need to repost that ridiculous and senseless article of yours again?"

That's what you call the high road? Then you must live among subterranean troglodytes.

Yes, thank goodness reasoned, respectful discourse has risen above hyperbolic insult.

I hear Madonna and Britney are going to do a small club acoustic tour next ....



WHEN HELL FUCKING FREEZES OVER

my two cents:

Dick Tracy album = highlight of Madonna's recording career; she shoulda stuck to doing Betty Boop. Seriously, that stuff was great.


Lomu - Miles Davis? Jazz? Isn't that ...narcotic music?

BTW: The poll you cited is probably excellent proof that contemporaries are pisspoor judges of the historical value of anything that occurs during their time.

Duane do not involve me in your little man petty tiff with Sandra. I can read and I know what she has written. I know what you have written. I do not know why you and Tdavid feel the need to research the archives of Sandra's posts on Blog. It seems you have far more time for her than she has for you guys. It may not be how it is but it is how it seems.

I am impressed by Sandra leaving the argument when she did. She did take the high road while you all carried on like little boys researching her past posts and trying to see who could write the wittier comments amongst yourselves.

Eric you should be bigger than this. You have been unable to rise above it. If Ms Smallson thinks you are an irresponsible journalist, it is her opinion. I do not know the rightness or wrongness of it. I did not post on this topic to involve myself in that. All I can say to you is that your recent post seems to substantiate some of the doubts she has raised about you as a journalist.

You call Sandra a jabbering loon, flagrant idiot who knows nothing about anything. She says you are an irresponsible journalist who is a nobody. It seems you are very affected by what she has said to join this little men gathering of saying silly things.

Are you trying to bait her? I hope she does not pay any attention to any of you. I think this site has enough of little men running around trying to belittle people who do not see their point of view. Shark calls Macdiva, Mcdemon. The rest of you throw your fair share of insults at Smallson but once she responds it is like she is the only one who has thrown hyperbolic insults.

I don't know if the Madonna and Britney club tour was a joke. Whatever it was, I do not see how you can not see it only shows that there just might be some truth to Smallson saying you are like Pitchfork media.

A Madonna fan doubts your journalistic clout for a variety of reasons. You start poking fun at Madonna. It belittles you.

Shark, anyone who thinks Jazz is narcotic music and can not appreciate Miles davis is a waste of my time. Moreover, anyone who thinks the highlight of Madonna's career was the Dick tracy Album reads from a different page of the hymn sheet. You know what I'm saying!

I think it is fair to say that the reasonable man would rather take the opinions of contemporaries than the opinions of little men or a failed stand up comic. I have said enough. Exactly the reason I do not contribute often to this site. I am likely to become one of you. That is nothing to be proud of.

Lomu, you and Sandra deserve each other. I will leave it at that.

The only reason I was drawn into any of this is that I wrote a postive review of both Madonna and Britney - you can read it above - and she behaved as if I had slagged them both to hell and back. She has said nothing whatsoever about any of this that makes any sense at all.

Since I write weekly for one of the largest media outlets on the web, I get mail all the time disagreeing with my opinion on this or that. I have zero problem with disagreement - it's just opinion - but I do not have people - never, not once - attacking my integrity as a writer, nor denying that I have something to say, and then never - not once - substantiating any of her accusations.

When people show up and shit on the living room rug, at first we are astonished, then we are angry, then when they won't clean it up we suggest they get the fuck out of the house.

This is the second time this individual has taken a big dump, for no apparent reason, right in he middle of the house. How do you think we should respond?

Lomu, you need a friggin' humor transplant.

Coupla things:

1) you jumped into BC by insulting people because they insult people. How brilliant is that?

2) I was listening to jazz when you were in diapers, son.

3) I would say a "reasonable" man would ignore contemporary popularity polls when trying to estimate the historical impact of a living artist. In 50 years, Madonna won't be more than a minor footnote in history -- and only then, because of her marketing skills.

4) I have said enough. Exactly the reason I do not contribute often to this site. I am likely to become one of you.
You and your tightly wound sphincter will be sorely missed.

Seeya!

Get a sense of humor, Lomu. You'll live a lot longer. Take a Holiday, stop acting Like A Virgin.

When it comes to encountering new characters on the web, I take about .0000001% of the flamebait that I read from them in the comments section seriously.

This is not saying that I don't remember or recall when folks like these Material Girls say or do humorous things. You might improperly label this "research" but I call this simply having a memory and holding Everybody accountable In This Life for their prior words and actions.

Don't You Know that Sandra and the Diva are missing a career in comedy?! They are clearly Borderline.

As for your "little men" comment, isn't that supposed to be Sandra's line? Love Makes The World Go Round.

(rimshot)

Yeah, yeah, Amazing, I won't quit my day job. Here's a road map to taking the high road.

Promise To Try.

TDavid, that was hilarious!

I was -- dare I say -- LOL.

"...stop acting like a virgin"

Oddly enough, truer words were never spoken.

Eric, there are many unsubstantiated opinions on Blog. Some of them could be yours. Some of them could be mine. Maybe Sandra did not feel it was a positive review. Whatever the case, it is her opinion and she may think it is substantiated. You know who you are and you know what you are. You should not allow the opinions of a reader reduce you to substantiating some of her accusations. Which with all due respect, I think you have done in some of your comments on this thread. I am sorry if I caused you any offence. I did not mean to. I am giving my opinion of this particular thread as I see it.

Shark, you were in diapers 47 years ago? You must be all of a 100 years old now. Well done. I do not see where I have insulted anyone. Please bring it to my notice. Madonna has been around since 1983 if the date on the remastered copy of her first Album is to be believed. 50 years from now, I think she will be far more than a foot note. In her life she has already accomplished so much, a living legend and in the Guiness Book of Records to the delight of the wife. The deeds of all humans are often over exaggerated after they are gone. The next generation will be over-stating Madonna as an Artist as we over-state every other Artist that has gone before. I do not know of any dead Artist who did not suffer the sort of criticism you give Madonna when they were alive. Now, they are exalted. All the Artists that have made an impact will be over-stated when they are gone. History teaches us that. You are wrong there, ma boy.

TDavid, well done. I am impressed by your knowledge of Madonna song titles. The wife assures me Promise to Try is a gem. I will look for it. Thank you for the heads up. Sorry. I had to call the wife to identify some of the song titles I could not decipher. If you had to do research on the titles, that is more impressive. It gives credence to my statement that you have a lot of time on your hands. For Sandra and Madonna. Lucky girls.

Sandra, I know you must scan through this thread. You must be curious as to what is being said. Your will power is inspiring. I invite you to join in the merriment of this thread. I'll give you an incentive. The attitude of the old men is turning me into a Madonna fan.

I have borrowed my daughter's collection. I am listening to her Cds. I may pay the $300 for her tour. I am reading archives of articles and interviews. I am beginning to think I am doing the Madonna elective in Women studies I hear they have in an Amsterdam University. I always wondered why Germaine Greer and the other feminists were always at each others throats about the influence of Madonna's Art. Talk about cultural impact.

If my business partner ever finds out what I am doing with my time off. It is quite fascinating and interesting. How she has grown as an Artist and steered her own course inspite of the people trying to influence her career choices. It is a good thing none of our friends here can do anything about it. There is a lot to be respected about the girl from Detroit.

I will quote Lyrics not titles.

" This world is not so kind
people trap your mind
it's so hard to find
someone to admire

It's no good when you're misunderstood, so why should I care, what the world thinks of me, won't let a stranger give me a social disease"...Madonna (Nobody Knows me. 2003)

She must be clairvoyant. Those lyrics suit the discussions on this thread down to the T. You have a convert. My wife and daughters are eternally grateful. Drop us a line. You must see you are dearly missed.

Lomu, I thought you took your ball and went home?

Shark, you were in diapers 47 years ago? You must be all of a 100 years old now. Well done.

I'd respond, but it doesn't make any sense. Math much?

I do not know of any dead Artist who did not suffer the sort of criticism you give Madonna when they were alive.

That's because they were ignored and/or forgotten by history. Jeezus.

Lomu, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'll kiss yer ass if Madonna records are played with any consistency in 50 years.

(Other than as nostalgia for somebody like "the wife".)

THEY'RE HARDLY PLAYED NOW, fer chrissakes.

I'll agree I should not have allowed myself to be baited.

Madonna has value on several levels: marketing and iconography, yes, but her core body of work will stand the test of time. Whatever her status as a "musician," she is an auteur and has always been in charge of her own music and career. I begrudge her nothing.

Only a mad cow would read the review above and not take it as wholly positive, particularly about Madonna.

Oh, Madonna's records will get SOME interest still in 50 years, but not as much as, say, the Monkees- a manufactured pop construct with much better SONGS.

I like the Monkees just fine, but Madonna is in another universe of significance altogether. The fact that most of her music is derived from dance music styles in no way reduces her importance. Madonna will be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as soon as she is eligible - the Monkees aren't and never will be (for what that's worth).

A "Madonna elective in Women studies?" Oh God, what a screamingly pretentious load of crap. What is there to STUDY? This sounds very much like an excuse for some faux-intellectual jackasses to sit around making out how her self-prostitution constitutes some Profound Feminist Statement. Wow, she's been her OWN pimp. I'm impressed.

Perhaps a marketing class based on her career might be useful.

Let's see...

Head vs Swept Away

Ca-ching! Slam dunk for the Monkees!

heh.

BTW: regarding Lomu's thesis, polls, R&R Hall of Fame, contemporaries' judgements, etc:

In art, the Paris Salon might be an equivalent place to look; many, if not most of the 'great' artists of the time were enshrined/accepted by the Salon competitions and were later either forgotten or marginalized as sentimental, commercial hacks by scholars, collectors, fans, and historians. And it turns out many of the painters rejected by the Salon are now some of the biggest names in art history.

Similar things happened w/many 19th century writers who were lionized in their day -- and currently can't be located on a bookstore shelf.


Yer turn, Lomu.

Shark, do you have a radio? What sort of music do you hear on the radio these days? If you had a radio you would not have made that comment. We do have to disagree on this one. You are beginning to stretch yourself out on what to say and your opinions are sounding thinner and thinner. I can not remember the last time I heard Miles davis on radio. I can not remember the last time I heard the Beatles on radio. Matter of fact, I can not remember the last time I heard Prince on radio. Radio plays hip-hop now, Shark.

Listen when they are playing the oldies. Try Z100 or Rick Fox. You will hear so much Madonna you will be tapping your fingers to the melodies and you will know the words soon enough. If you are the age you claim, you will be dead in 50 years. Your children will tell you about it in the afterlife. Ah, as we speak, there is Shirley Bassey covering Madonna's "You'll see". Never liked Dame Shirley Bassey. I think I have had enough of this discussion as well.

Eric, that is the right attitude if I may say so. It is strictly a matter of opinion what you feel about the status of someone in their profession. The only reason I joined this discussion is because of someone saying Madonna is not a musician. She fulfills the requirements, she is one. What you think of her ability as one is entirely up to you. Your opinion is not fact. If your opinion was fact we would not be having this discussion at all.

You do not hear people arguing if Clinton was the President in 1992. He was the president. That is a fact. What is not a fact, is what personal opinion you hold about Madonna or Clinton. The problem is with people who fail to see that opinions are not facts.

Radio?

What the hell does that have to do with anything?!

Lomu, I'm sorry, but your lack of logic and/or an articulate point makes me feel like I'm debating a tree. We're wasting time; we should just leave it at:

* You love Madonna and think she's going to have a really significant impact on future generations.

* I 'like' Madonna and think that in the overall scheme of musical history, she'll be a footnote... or more likely, a photograph.

Madonna? Ain't that the bint who got cuffed for rubbing her arse in Toronto? And she has the nerve to attempt it again when the Brass Rail and Jilly's is right down the street?

Wot? there's music involved? Isn't there always music with peelers?

Lomu, you have been good to read:) Ofcourse I have scanned through sometimes. I just can not be bothered to join in the "merriment":) Still can't be bothered. As Mr Olsen has told you, we've been there and done that. As far as substance to my opinions on Mr Olsen, been there, done that. You have read Pitchfork media post? If you haven't, please try. When you do, connect the dots with my accusations and I do not think it will be rocket science. Trust me. On the other hand, let him tell you what "major media outlet" he writes for weekly. Try and keep up with them and make up your own mind. I am not here to influence anybodys opinions on anybody. Not on Olsen. Not on M. I certainly was not looking for more Madonna fans. She has fansites I can visit if I want. She has more than enough. Still, if you have a new found appreciation, all's well that ends well:) It's a gift I have, i achieve things without trying;)

My contribution is to tell you that the Album version of Nobody Knows me does not hold a candle to the version in the Remixed&Revisited EP. It's called the old school mix..ask your wife or daughters if they've got the CD. Listen to that mix. It is fantastic. Enjoy:)

In art, the Paris Salon might be an equivalent place to look; many, if not most of the 'great' artists of the time were enshrined/accepted by the Salon competitions and were later either forgotten or marginalized as sentimental, commercial hacks by scholars, collectors, fans, and historians. And it turns out many of the painters rejected by the Salon are now some of the biggest names in art history.

You have made my point for me, Sharky old boy! Dead Artists who were criticised in their day and now exalted.
Let us leave it.

And in Bizarro World were all am right:

Lomu, you have been good to read:) Ofcourse I have scanned through sometimes. I just can not be bothered to join in the "merriment":) Still can't be bothered. As Mr Olsen has told you, we've been there and done that. As far as substance to my opinions on Mr Olsen, been there, done that. You have read Pitchfork media post? If you haven't, please try. When you do, connect the dots with my accusations and I do not think it will be rocket science. Trust me. On the other hand, let him tell you what "major media outlet" he writes for weekly. Try and keep up with them and make up your own mind. I am not here to influence anybodys opinions on anybody. Not on Olsen. Not on CL. I certainly was not looking for more Courtney Love fans. She has fansites I can visit if I want. She has more than enough. Still, if you have a new found appreciation, all's well that ends well:) It's a gift I have, i achieve things without trying;)

Hi From Brazil!!!!!!!

Sandra Smallson said: Eric, go and read Tom Johnson's post. It is for "critics" like you. Though he did not mean it for you, I think those he refers to are made of the same ilk as your irresponsible self.

I wish I'd seen this a few days ago, so I could set this straight when more people would see it. My post had NOTHING to do with Eric, who is and always has been a very fair critic and I really don't appreciate something I wrote being twisted into meaning that.

Sandra, Jesus, take a Doan's and relax for once. Madonna will survive a few people not praising her as the musical messiah you seem to think she is.

Tom Johnson, I think YOU need to take a chill pill and take the cape off. Goodness gracious!

CAN YOU NOT READ? I clearly said in that quote that you have responded to..that "THOUGH HE(being YOU) did not mean it for him (being Eric) I think..(I being ME, ME = not you = not Eric = ME)he is of sme ilk with said people you criticise. What you posted has not been twisted. Did I change the words? I simply applied it to a journalist that I=ME=NOT YOU felt had the same traits as those you described. What you think about Eric as a journalist is irrelevant to me. I think the complete opposite.

Now, I am sure Eric can survive a few people not praising him like the paragon of journalism that you seem to think he is.

Eric, what paper do you write for? Can I access it online?

Sandra, I have listened to the Mount Simms mix, I think it's called. It's for the clubs my daughters tell me. It's alright. Maybe it's my age showing but I like her quieter songs such as "Oh Father" and the like.

Your last sentence in your response to Tom made me shake my head with mild amusement. You are a sharp one. Nothing gets by you.

"You are a sharp one. Nothing gets by you."

Nothing except logic. Good Christ.

Thanks Tom, I appreciate the kind words; no concern about the post, the hilarity of the "controversy" is that we ALL write about 95% positive reviews here, we couldn't be much less like Pitchfork.

Sandra, speak for yourself

Lomu, MSNBC.com, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland.com). In the past I have written for Salon, Playboy, Rolling Stone, Billboard, Mojo, Alernative Press, Option, All Music Guide, Hear/Say, many more regional and local, and I have written two books, both of which have won awards.

Eric: Sandra, speak for your self.

Sandra: ???????

aaah, pish posh! What is it to win awards? Afterall, a certain musician has won dozens of awards in her career. Still does not make her talented or a musician in some eyes. Your books have won awards, so what? Doesn't make you a great journalist, now does it? If this great logic mad man Duane speaks of, is to be followed? Hmm?:)

I'm sorry. I promised myself not to argue about Madonna even if I wrote on this thread:) Just had to mention "the awards issue" because the irony of it was too much to let go:)

Eric, not to worry. We just do not see eye to eye. You could well be a must read for many in Cleveland. I just do not think you do the profession of journalism, or to be more specific, I do not thik you do the term "critic" any favours. Just my view. Congratulations on your awards whoever/wherever they were from.

Duane, I would rather be boiled, tarred and feathered than to appear logical to a person like you. The fear of acceptance by you is worse than the fear of violent death itself.

Lomu: Then the -Something to Remember- compilation CD is a must have for you. If the quieter trax are more your style. Just a word of caution, other than Vogue and 1 or 2 other tracks, the Dick tracy Album is not any of her best work by a long stretch. Just shows you the quality of people you are dealing with here. LOL. Enjoy M's music:)Regardless of what any of these mindless idiots have to say about the gal:)

About Al's comment #42. Isn't that the fucking truth. I've not been accused of stalking over the internet, but if I had a dollar for every time I was stalking a freaked out hell bitch while sitting on my couch I'd be rich. Maybe role playing would serve as an alternative. I'm gonna start a stalking service for women who wished they could generate enough interest in themselves to be stalked.

I've finally figured it out:

Sandi doesn't type.

She has a little Pavlovian trained crack addict chihuahua strapped to her keyboard: when it sees the computer monitor switch on, it starts dancing across the letters and salivating. If she gets lucky, its little feverish toes hit the "Post" button every now and then.

If we get lucky, it misses.

And If there is a God in heaven, someday it'll break its leg and have to be put down.

Sandra, I don't know you...but...my, you do seem a bit hostile. It's not my place to act as a psychoanalyst (I'm busy enough as it is), but there's something rather...well, instigatory about your "tone".

...and for what it's worth, my guess is that you don't know Jackity-crack about Duane or Eric or Al or TDavid or anyone else here, so why don't you cool your jets and quit coming off with such a personal brand of snideness. Sheez! I bet you're hypertensive.

Sorry, but I find Madonna to be a bit tiresome and annoying. I put up with that "elegant" quasi-European accent that she adopted right around the time she married Guy Ritchie (in contrast to the crass, gum-snapping verbal style she once flaunted), and figured that her newfound fascination with the Kabbalah was another celebrity jumping on the spiritual bandwagon...but I digress.

What is really irritating is that just when I thought Madonna was beginning to look as if she would handle middle age with a modicum of class, she had to turn around and start publicly french-kissing girls young enough to be her daughter(s). Ew!!

I think Madonna is trying to live vicariously through Britney Spears and there's something kind of creepy about it.

In terms of talent...well...simply put, had there been no MTV, there'd be no Madonna (or Britney, or a veritable litany of other "talented musicians") enjoying an obscene amount of wealth...and EXPOSURE!

'Nuff Said.

Sandra, I am Deeply Offended. You have been on a hysterical tirade for a couple of days on this Madonna stuff, denouncing various of us profusely and in great detail- yet nary a word about me. What am I, chopped liver?

Eric might be an award winning author and all, but I, Al Barger, am the Great White Devil of Blogcritics. I am far more offensive than any Eric Olsen or Shark.

Eric...
I, too, thought your article on Britney Spears/Madonna was insulting. I was happy to read this blog to find out that you are actually a fan of Madonna's. You seemed to imply that Madonna has no real talent other than to promote herself. That statement is so pathetically cliche now, considering Madonna has been in the business for 21 years and is probably the ONLY performer who can sell out 4-6 shows in different cities, within hours, at $300 a ticket (this is for THIS tour, not the Drowned World Tour). I DO agree that she wasn't "gifted" in the same way Mozart or John Lennon was. But she has taken an average-ranged voice and stretched it unbelievably to the point where I would rather listen to her than vocal acrobatic artists such as Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey. But it's not just vocals that make an artist. Songs such as "Oh Father," "This Used To Be My Playground," and "Frozen" are beautifully written masterpieces (the lyrics were written by Madonna). Have you ever seen Madonna in concert? She moves a crowd like nobody else, with the exception of Bruce Springsteen. If all she knew how to do was market herself, she would be long gone by now. Anyway, just my two cents. I still respect you as a journalist and realize that everybody has opinions.

In response to "if there was no MTV, there would be no Madonna."...well, it is a FACT that Madonna was successul before MTV became her best friend. Her first album yielded several hits before she hit it big with "Lucky Star." And now that MTV doesn't support her anymore, Madonna is still mega-successful. She's selling out 20,000 + stadiums in minutes at $300 a pop.

In response to your response regarding how successful Madonna was prior to MTV, I can only say that I never heard of her (nor did anyone that I know of) prior to 1983 or 1984. MTV debuted in 1981.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't hate Madonna. I just don't happen to think she is all that talented as a musician. She's perhaps more of a "performance artist" who cashed in on Marilyn Monroe's femme fatale image and took it to the next level. And come on...do you think she'd have made it as big as she has if she were homely and dumpy?

Prior to MTV, musicians had only one thing to rely on to sell records: music. Okay, make that two things...some could really put on a show and the concerts were events.

...then came the visual banquet that MTV brought to America (and ultimately the world) and suddenly it seems that appearance became just as important--if not more so--than the ability to compose, sing, or play an instrument. Sure, I guess that "mosquito on helium" vocal style Madonna used in her early days was appealing to some, so she sold records. The tunes were kind of catchy, but far from masterpiece quality in terms of lyrical content or melody.

Britney Spears has done the same thing, as have a number of other nubile female performers. But wait! It's not just the female "stars" who used visuals to sell their sound. Who can forget the pretty-boy bands? Then there were the videos themselves. Does anyone remember the days when MTV actually played music videos full-time? I remember more about what some of these people looked like or the special effects in their videos than the artists themselves.

Looks sell. I'm not even saying an act has to be "pretty". Look at Marilyn Manson, for example. The first time I saw "The Beautiful People", I must have said something like, "whathef#*k?" It was grotesque but riveting and every time I heard that "ba da-da-da-da" coming on, I had to go over to the TV and watch. Another example of using visuals is The Darkness and their over-the-top "A Thing Called Love"...the song itself is what I'd call irritating but the video is so funny, I forgive them.

My, but I've digressed. My point is, talent doesn't guarantee fame, and vice-versa. Madonna is one of a number of acts who soared to uber-stardom thanks to MTV. She became a huge presence, a diva, and one of the first of many acts to become a virtual industry--and a very rich one at that. But let's not forget that it was not her singing that built her career so much as her outlandish brand of sexuality and the many, many differnt "looks" she's sported over the years.

Madonna is a "superstar", and she's not quite what anyone would call "geriatric" quite yet...so, as long as she can put on a good show, of course she can still draw big crowds. More power to her.

However, I do find it rather sad that there is plenty of bona fide musical talent and genius out there (and I actually know a few myself) but it seems that talent isn't enough these days. Visual appeal (even if it's disturbing), exposure and hype are just as important as musicianship and I'm willing to bet that this has had a less-than-desirable effect on what gets airplay and how music itself is evolving (or not).

But the show must go on....

Nurse kitties, you are entitled to your opinion. There are more talented people than the uber talented Late barry White who have never made it in music. So, whats your point? I dont want to hear it. Madonna is talented, You dont think so..fine. Move on with your MTV weightless opinion.

I hate O'reilly. It is because of you that I have decided to write on this thread. Not only do I love your name if you mean O'reilly of Fox news but I am glad that somebody else can point out to Eric one of the things in his "positive review" that is insulting. I am too much of a jabbering loon to have achieved that.

We only differ on the respect for Eric as a journalist. If he is so far up his own writing that he thought that was a positive review of Madonna, then what sort of critic/journalist can he be? Plus, he made no attempts to distinguish b/w that being his opinion. In actual fact, he stated it as fact and I think repeated that ridiculous comment somewhere that it was fact as far as he was concerned. Now, I am supposed to see a difference between he and the Pitchfork media article Tom Johnson wrote? I think not!

Ihateoreilly, I am very happy that this story clarified my position on Madonna and I am sorry if I was unclear in the original article.

The paragraph in question reads:

Though blessed with great natural talent in nothing other than self-promotion, Madonna has nonetheless guided her own remarkably sure path through a wide range of popular dance music styles including disco ("Holiday," "Lucky Star," "Into the Groove"), new wave ("Material Girl," "Like a Virgin"), Latin ("La Isla Bonita"), soul ("Express Yourself"), girl-pop ("Cherish"), house ("Vogue"), hip-hop ("Justify My Love," "Erotica"), and electronica ("Ray of Light," "Music"), finding and conveying the resonant sweet spot of each.

Like a Prayer generated five Top 20 hits, two that reached number 2 -- "Express Yourself" and Cherish" -- and the title track that spent three weeks at number 1. The song "Like a Prayer," blessed with Madonna's most angelic vocal, daringly combines spiritual and sexual imagery, and infused with pure gospel beauty, charges between lilting verses and the powerful sing-along chorus. "Express Yourself" is a rousing slab of soulful female positivity with Madonna and a full choir of sisters exhorting each other to "Don't go for second best baby/Put your love to the test" - another standard. "Cherish" is finger-snapping irrepressible joy, with another high, clear vocal, making the term "small voice" seem a virtue - pretty great.

...a little Pavlovian trained crack addict chihuahua

and remember, for maximum effect this must be pronounced in the less nessman manner:

that would be:

CHEE - HOOA - HOOA

Eric, the fact that you have never heard anybody else say she is naturally great at anything doesn't mean it is so. It also doesn't mean it must automatically become your view. If it is your view, then it is your view because that is what you think. I agree with I hateoreilly. It is an insult to insinuate that Madonna has no talent at all except for self promotion. She has a variety of talents. Some are naturally better than others. I think she is a talented song writer, melody maker and performer. Moreover, I think she is supremely intelligent. All in all, she is a talented musician. In my view.

I will take Sandra's advice but I must say this. According to some on Blog, Madonna's only talent is self promotion. She can't sing and she isn't a musician. She barely has songs.

The avid fans will correct me if I am wrong but Madonna has released atleast 10 studio Albums. On both sides of the Atlantic she is the female with the most number of top 10 or top 40 hits ever. Her Immaculate collection Album remained on the pop catalogue charts for a decade and more since it's release. It is still on some pop catalogue charts.

What I am supposed to understand from you boys is, she released her first studio Album and the world saw she could not sing, no songs, no talent. It was all pop-shock slut. She released the second, the world saw the same. She released the third, the world saw the same and so on and so on.

We are at the 10th and the reason she has maintained this longevity and consistensy and is always mentioned in any of these lists that Eric talks about as one of the best female artists is because she is a slutty pop-shocker with exclusive access to great producers and exists because of MTV? The reason people are still buying the Like a Virgin Album released a decade ago is because of MTV? All she is, is a self promoting slutty pop shocker?

Sandra you are right. There is nothing I can do here. I rest my case.

"great natural talent in nothing other than self-promotion"

is not the same thing as

"no talent at all except for self promotion"

and to pretend that it is is disingenuous at best and a flat-out lie at worst.

Since there seems to be little agreement from either side of the Madonna fence, I suggest we move ahead in the alphabet and talk about Metallica and music so loud that it hurts your ears.

Is this music at all when it is played so loud that it is barely intelligible?

Lomu & Sandra, if it makes you feel better, I'd rather have seen and heard Madonna open for Metallica than Godsmack at ear-crushing decibels

This assumes that she strutted around suggestively playing all her hits from the 80's, of course.

Porn and heavy metal work well together. It could happen!

Lomu, you have restored my faith in middle-age:) With the people here I began to wonder that at a certain age people become intellectually unemployed. There grows an impenetrable barrier between them and reality. My faith is restored:)

Your final post is also very good. I will just say one last thing to Eric on this topic.

Eric, for the last time. Since you feign ignorance as to what one finds insulting in your post. Ihateoreilly has pointed out one. I will point out another...

" but she has maximized her abilities through hard work, force of will, excellent taste in collaborators, and the ability to to adapt to changing styles, finding - and I quote myself - "finding and conveying the resonant sweet spot of each." This is an unalloyed compliment."

That is patronising. Why? You would not say that about any of the Artists you have more respect for. It would not be an issue. Even though they are equally as hardworking. Even though, they too work with trendy and fabulous producers. As far as the changing styles and finding sweet spots..that's just daft whether you mean it as a compliment or not.

It is patronising. Madonna is not the only hardworking musician. She is no more hardworking than the rolling stones, Paul Mccartney, Eminem etc. She no more works with collaborators than any other artist, but you feel the need to mention it in an article on Madonna.

You wrote an Article about boybands, pointing out that Timberlake is an exception to their general "badness" Not once did you mention his producers, or he's hardworking, or his adopting the street style. Many of you write articles about other musicians, not once do you mention those peripheral things that go hand in hand with being an Artist.

You do not have to respect Madonna. You do not have to like her, or her work. But if you insist on writing an article and mentioning her. Show some class and do not be insulting or patronising. If you want to be those things, then atleast have the balls to say you are those things because that is what you think. Instead of pretending you can not see what is wrong, calling it positive and stating it as fact instead of opinion.

I was reading a book of philosophical quotes. I shall leave you with some words you may find useful as you carry on as a critic..

A critic should be taught to criticize a work of art without making any reference to the personality of the artist. This, in fact, is the beginning of criticism"

Every great man nowadays has his/her disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography"..Madonna critics have too much time for Madonna. It would do you all well to write more, about the Artists you truly respect. No need telling how you are not a critic afterall you liked some songs in Like A prayer..you wrote a patronising and insulting piece in my opinion and thats what I saw it as. You do not see it as such. Maybe others dont. Maybe others do. C'est la vie.

Timberlake:

Grammy-winning Timberlake's success has been based upon a combination of a calculated forsaking of his wholesome, color-coordinated, boyish 'N Sync image for that of a sexual young bachelor on the prowl, sowing his wild oats with the steamy likes of Britney Spears, Alyssa Milano, Cameron Diaz, and the nasty Miss Jackson. Musically, Timberlake has been able to convince a skeptical world that he isn't a posed popster, but is in reality a gritty soul man, charting his own course down a path rich with funky, organic grooves.

There might even be something approaching a "Justin Timberlake" sound emerging from the haze. His best songs are built upon organic funky grooves, from which Timberlake and collaborators like the Neptunes, Timbaland, and Brian McKnight then construct songs - a firm musical foundation not dissimilar to that of one of Timberlake's idols, Michael Jackson, whose falsetto Timberlake's resembles.

By the way, I just put in the Ray of Light album for the first time in two years. There is rarely an artist out there that can put out such a masterpiece..yeah, they can hire William Orbit..but her singing on Ray of Light is fantastic. Her songwriting on this album is incredible as well. Just listen to the song "Mer girl" and you will understand why she's such a genius. By the way, my screen name is named after O'Reilly on fox news. I don't want any of you to think I don't have a life..but I made a website about him: www.ihateoreilly.com

Compare and contrast..

LOL..Madonna's success relies in part, according to Olsen, on her ability to adapt to changing styles..while Timberlake has convinced the skeptical world that he is..(wait for it) A GRITTY SOUL MAN, (and this is the killer)CHARTING HIS OWN COURSE down a path rich with funky organic grooves.

Yah. Yah, Eric darling..Image=checked..Indeed.

Eric on Timberlake's collaborators..FROM WHICH TIMBERLAKE AND collaborators..,,,,,then construct songs - a firm musical foundation not dissimilar to that of one of Timberlake's idols, Michael Jackson, whose falsetto Timberlake's resembles.

While Madonna according to Olsen, simply has fabulous tastes in collaborators. Heaven forfend the poor gal have Olsen write an article with MADONNA AND colaborators constructing songs..oh no. Her bit is done by having fabulous tastes in them.
Yah..producers=checked.

Ofcourse you would not mention hard work directly..how can you? Madonna is the only one that works hard or has to, if you are to be believed. What a joke! What a waste of MSNBC website quota.

Eric, your article on Madonna is patronising and insulting. I did not have to look hard to see it. Forget that I am a Madonna fan. Any reasonable neutral observer, will not have to look hard or even think at all, to read that whole article in context and not find it patronising. You even made it worse by showing the comparisons b/w your Timberlake article.

I refer you to the last 4 paragraphs of my post before this as conclusion.

As I shake my head wondering how on earth I got into this nonsense with you again.

Lomu, if you are still reading. Don't know where you live but below is an article with updates on tickets and tour venues added to the ones Eric posted in his initial article. Hopefully, you are not in a sold out state. What is £300 to a man like you;)?

Tuesday March 30, 6:31 pm ET
MADONNA'S re-INVENTION TOUR: New Dates Are Added
NEW YORK--(YAHOO BUSINESS WIRE)--March 30, 2004--The Material Girl's star is shining brighter than ever with the news that her upcoming "re-INVENTION Tour" is selling out around the world.
Originally scheduled to perform in 12 major markets in North America with additional stops in Paris and London, the demand for tickets was so high that in New York city after two Madison Square Garden dates sold out in record time, Madonna's manager, Caresse Henry, and the worldwide tour promoter, Clear Channel Entertainment, added four subsequent performances (June 20, 2l, 23 and 24) which were instant sell outs as well. Demand was so high that an additional New York area performance was confirmed this morning - July 7th at Continental Airlines Arena. Tickets for that event will go on sale Monday, April 5th.

Additional shows have been added in Boston (June 30th) after two sell outs at the Worcester Centrum. A fourth show has been announced in Chicago (July 15th) after three sell outs as well as more shows currently being added in Fort Lauderdale (July 29th) and Miami (August 2nd) after those markets went clean in record time.

Overseas, Madonna's two London shows at Earl's Court (August 18 and 19) sold out in 90 minutes leading to the confirmation of a 3rd London performance at Wembley Arena on August 22nd. Her scheduled Paris show (Sept. 1) is going on sale tomorrow, March 31st and is expected to sell out as well.

Madonna is both a multi-Grammy Award winner and a multi-MTV Award winner and has sold well over 250 million albums during the span of her extraordinary two-decade career. In addition, she has had more Top Ten Singles than any female artist in history - second only to Elvis Presley.

Date City Venue On sale Info:

May 24 Los Angeles Forum Sold Out
May 25 Los Angeles#2 Forum Sold Out
May 27 Los Angeles #3 Forum 3rd show announced On sale 4/2-10am

May 29 Las Vegas MGM Grand Garden Arena Sold Out
May 30 Las Vegas #2 MGM Grand Garden Arena Sold Out

June 8 San Jose HP Pavilion On sale4/12

June l3 Washington, DC MCI Center On sale 4/3

June 16 New York City Madison Sq. Garden Sold Out
June 17 New York City #2 Madison Sq. Garden Sold Out
June 20 New York City #3 Madison Sq. Garden Sold Out
June 21 New York City #4 Madison Sq. Garden Sold Out
June 23 New York City #5 Madison Sq. Garden Sold Out
June 24 New York City #6 Madison Sq. Garden Sold Out

June 27 Boston Worcester Centrum Sold Out
June 28 Boston #2 Worcester Centrum Sold Out
June 30 Boston #3 Worcester Centrum 3rd show announced On Sale 4/5-10am

July 4 Philadelphia Wachovia Center Sold Out
July 5 Philadelphia #2 Wachovia Center 2nd show added

July 7E. Rutherford Continental AirlinesArena Just Announced! sale 4/5

July 11 Chicago United Center Sold Out
July 12 Chicago #2 United Center Sold Out
July 14 Chicago #3 United Center Sold Out
July 15 Chicago #4 United Center 4th & final show
On Sale 4/3-noon!

July l8 Toronto Air Canada Centre Sold Out
July 19 Toronto #2 Air Canada Centre Sold Out
July 21 Toronto #3 Air Canada Centre Sold Out

July 24 Atlanta Philips Arena On sale 4/3

July 28 Fort Lauderdale Office Depot Center Sold Out
July 29 Fort Lauderdale #2 Office Depot Center On Sale 4/3-noon!

August l Miami American Airlines
Arena Sold Out
August 2 Miami #2 American Airlines
Arena On Sale 4/3-noon!

August l8 London Earls Court Sold Out
August 19 London #2 Earls Court Sold Out
August 22 London #3 Wembley Arena On Sale 4/2-9am

Sept. 1 Paris Bercy On sale 3/31


- Itinerary subject to change.

For Official VIP Ticket packages, visit www.madonnaviptickets.com.

Thank-you Sandra. Very useful. The whole family thanks you (smile). I'm mainly in New York and I see that the MSG tickets are gone for all six dates. I'm not in the Country right now but I'll ask the wife to consider the Washington or Miami future sales. Those two will be convenient for me. That would entail buying the wife additional tickets. We will see.

Has she had more top ten singles than any Artist in history, second only to Elvis? Or is it more top ten singles in history of a Female Artist?

Speaking of Timberlake. A majority of stuff on his Justified Album was stuff discarded by Michael Jackson prior to releasing Invincible. It's an interesting fact to note. It was well documented and spoken out that it was an Album mostly with songs Jackson discarded. It leaves me curious as to what songs he may have constructed with his collaborators. Nevermind. It's not important.

You are welcome, Lomu. I read your Timberlake comment and remembered this article I read on MSN. So, I have posted it for you to read. Very interesting read. You will find it very interesting on Artists from Elvis to Sinatra, etc. Please, note paragraph 10:) It speaks for itself. No further elaboration needed. I'm not sure on the question you asked. Will try to find out. I think it's the latter. Read, enjoy and be enlightened:)

Why pop songwriting's not what it used to be.

By Kevin Canfield

Earlier this month, Jessica Simpson's new single "With You" reached the No. 1 spot on Billboard's Mainstream Top 40 chart--not particularly shocking, given her popularity and the success of her MTV reality show Newlyweds. What is intriguing, though, is Simpson touting this exceedingly forgettable radio confection as her own, having apparently co-written the single with the prolific lyricists Billy Mann and Andy Marvel.

Pop singers used to be mere entertainers; songwriting was largely the domain of professionals who rarely performed. Today, they want us to believe they're auteurs--singers who are also capable of writing their own songs. Britney Spears is credited with writing/co-writing seven of the 13 songs on 2003's In the Zone. Justin Timberlake picks up co-writing credits on all of the songs on 2002's Justified. Timberlake's 'N Sync bandmate J.C. Chasez takes co-songwriting credits on all but one of the songs of his just-released solo debut, Schizophrenic. Even teen star Hilary Duff gets writing credits for three of the songs on her new record, Metamorphosis.

Why this shift? Strangely, the celebrity gossip industry of the late '90s and early 2000s may be responsible. Artists, especially those who are expected to talk about their latest creative effort in People and on Access Hollywood, need a story to tell, and an auteur makes for a better interview. Marketing yourself as a singer who bares her soul is much easier than marketing a singer baring a songwriter's soul.

Last July, for example, Billboard reported that expectations were high for Gloria Estefan's Unwrapped because the singer wrote several songs in which--you guessed it--she "bares her soul." Similar terminology was used to peddle Shania Twain's second record, 1995's The Woman in Me. "On my first album I was a singer interpreting other people's songs, and on this album I'm singing my own songs," Twain told the Chicago Tribune at the time. "I think the delivery in the vocal is much more intimate and real."

More than ever, record companies are looking to sell artists as auteurs. From a business perspective, singer-songwriters can save record companies money that would've been spent to pay professional songwriters. Pop stars are able to cash in on the fat royalty checks earned from their songwriting credits and enjoy the recognition that they gain from their creative endeavors. And the camp of pop singers not as lyrically inclined can reap the same benefits by purchasing material from an independent writer and pawning it off as their own--a longtime practice in the industry, for which Elvis was infamous.

Pop music critics have also been instrumental in this shift. As Norah Jones can attest, critics may not take an artist seriously unless she writes a substantial portion of her own material. (Which is why Jones' camp has so strenuously reminded the public that she wrote or co-wrote six of the 13 of songs on her new record. She had songwriting credits on just three of the 14 songs on her 2002 debut album.)

Such pressures were uncommon in earlier decades. The biggest hits of the '50s and '60s were written by songwriters like Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, who co-wrote songs like the Searchers' "Love Potion No. 9" and Ben E. King's "Stand by Me." Sammy Fain wrote hits for Johnny Mathis, the Four Aces, and others. Ronnie Shannon wrote Aretha Franklin's version of "I Never Loved a Man," and Don Covay was behind her hit "Chain of Fools." Frank Sinatra's albums rarely credit him as a songwriter.

But by the early '60s, performers like Bob Dylan and Joan Baez hit the pop charts with songs they'd written themselves. The emphasis on the authenticity of their songwriting reflected the gestalt of the era. And it influenced Simon and Garfunkel, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, and scores of others. As groups such as the Beatles and the Rolling Stones emerged on the scene, they proved that commercial bands could also offer immensely catchy singles, even if they did write their own material.

Even then, Baez, Dylan, and others were a breed apart; divas like Cher or Barbra Streisand or Diana Ross still never troubled themselves with writing lyrics; those were the chores of a songwriter. Even Michael Jackson's first solo albums, Off the Wall (1979) and Thriller (1982), were largely written by others. (Later, Jackson supposedly began to write the bulk of his lyrics.)

Madonna may be credited, to a certain extent, with fueling the new growth of today's new "self-contained" acts, as they're known in the industry. After she arrived on the music scene in 1983 with an eponymous debut record that she had written herself, pop stars as auteurs started to become the rule, not the exception.

But Jessica Simpson is no Madonna, and her eager attempt to repackage herself as a soulful auteur may not be the most savvy business decision: As veteran music journalist Jim DeRogatis recently noted in an interview, "Sometimes [these pop stars are] blissfully ignorant of the songs they allegedly wrote." (Simpson apparently believes her writing skills should not be limited to songs: She and husband Nick Lachey are said to be shopping a marriage advice book--more evidence of her aspirations to auteurdom.)

No one begrudges Simpson her ambitions. But spend three or four minutes with Simpson's "With You"--"With nothing but a T-shirt on/ I never felt so beautiful/ Baby as I do now"--and you might find yourself longing for the days when professional songwriters ruled the pop charts. Happily, there's no reason to think that the future of pop music is one in which all of the songs will be written by the artists themselves--there are still pop singers who show no inclination toward songwriting. More important, it's pretty clear that there are plenty unequipped to write anything at all. And as the novelty wears off in songwriting, as in most things, the marketplace will hopefully begin to distinguish the wheat from the chaff. Thank God for capitalism.

Kevin Canfield is a writer in New York.

Lomu, you are right on both counts. More top tens only 2nd to Elvis and is the female with most top 10s. Also, the female with most top 40's..2nd is Aretha, 2 or 3 singles away.

Funny, that paragraph 10, cos M is quoted as saying she felt she could have added more variety to that Album and most of the songs were weak, she thought:)So, she chose songs from some other writers and some of her own for the 2nd Album. Still, not too happy, though, happier..went back to doing more of her stuff on the 3rd ..True Blue Album..then she hit her stride so to speak. Odd that..cos for Borderline and Lucky Star alone, the First Album was saved:)Though severely slammed by critics and from whence the label SLUT started, which as we can see has carried on till now:)

Only God knows what chastity has got to do with the actual music itself. Go figure....and in hindsight, some critics in articles about M's career give the First Album more credit than it ever got on release.

Enough M education;) Nothing I'm sure your gals don't know already:)

ignore from..next to my whence..sleep induced error, me thinks.

LULU.just so you know, Madonna's concerts may be "sold out" but she always adds tickets (and incredible seats) within two weeks of each date. I got front row seats to see the DWT in Philadelphia and 2nd row in Los Angeles a week before each show..so keep going to Ticketmaster. I am so broke now that I was only able to afford the $150 LA opening night seat and a $75 Las Vegas seat. Oh well, good luck to everybody who is trying to get tickets.

Hey guys,

Read quite a bit of this blogger and just wanted to add to an earlier piece about pop songwriting and, of course, her awesome final tour.

I'm an indie music artist in Seattle (no - not a garage band... but a solo pop artist) and as a songwriter it becomes easier to write about meaningful things (even in pop) when one's mind is politicized .... forgive me for reverting back to Britney/Madonna, but Britney, in my opinion, is not mentally politicized for whatever upbringing-rearing differences than, say, struggling in NYC as a teenager like Madonna (Mousekeeter life v. hardcore grits of making it BIG). At least, I have found that to be my source of inspiration, and I see parallels within Madonna.

Either way, I'm 24, and I remember being exposed to her at 4 years old, when my sister walked around the house with lacey gloves and similar hairstyle, singling "Material Girl." I didn't actually become a fan until "Vogue." But I've never seen her live in any venue. And now.... 20yrs later - I got a PLATINUM VIP for NYC on 6/20!!!

Good luck to you all and God bless.
http://david.catalyscope.com

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC! I'm not going to deny that Madonna has talent because to have a string of hits that she had (even though it's ended recently), you have to have SOME talent. Even though I cringe at listening to most of her music, I think Madonna is the greatest human being that has ever walked on this planet. When the critics say, "she's over," "she's fading," they don't understand that she's God to some of us and like Martin Luther King Jr., or Rosa Parks (who may be "old" as well), she will live in our hearts forever. Why do I make a comparison between Madonna and these icons? Lets flash back to the mid eighties, when Madonna was the brightest star on the planet. At that time, supporting the gay community was detrimental to anyone's career. Sure, Elizabeth Taylor and Barbara Streisand were gay icons, but they had already put most of their commercial successes behind them. Madonna went against the grain and was not only the first mega-star to actively support Aids victims (I didn't even know what the disease was until I saw Madonna give a passionate speech about it on MTV), but she spoke out against bigotry. Her "Like A Prayer" video dealt with a relationship between a white woman and a black "saint" figure, long before this was the politically correct thing to do. If this happens now, I just yawn..I don't need fake political correctness shoved down my throat. In the early nineties, SHE was soley responsible for exposing the bigotry and hypocricy aimed at gays. True, she might have not gone about it in a subtle matter, but she was able to get people to talk about the issues. The right wing religious people tried to bury her and bury her, but she came out on top, until she went too far with the "SEX" book and "Erotica" stuff. Because of the backlash she received from that, it's unfortunate that Madonna would never be the outspoken person that made millions idolize her. She may have regained her critics and listeners with 1998's "Ray of Light," but would never take a stand on anything again. When she took a stand against the war, she went back on her statement and upset a lot of fans, which is why I think American Life was such a flop, even though it's not a disastrous album. Even though she acts desperate today, I will always love that woman. I will be attending three of her shows. Oh..I also met her a couple years back and she signed a magazine cover for me..and wrote my name and said, "Love Madonna." I have that thing on my ceiling, framed. It was the most surreal thing when I met her. Anyway, that's my opinion. Madonna will be here LONG AFTER her music if forgotten, if that ever happens.