They were ruthless savages. They lived and died by killing each other. We introduced them to modern things like Dentistry and medicine.

EXCUSE ME?

EXCUSE ME?

And you are saying that Napoleon running around, and the various other European rulers were not savages because they had Dentistry and European medicine? Cause they sure as hell were running around killing each other.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Tom Bux has defined gentile civilization for us all:

Dentistry and Western Medicine. If you don't have this, you are a ruthless savage.

*takes this one step further for giggles* Mr. Bux, would you say that the population of the United States that cannot afford to go to the Dentist or Doctor are ruthless savages? I mean, they can't afford it, therefore they don't have it, so I guess that means they are ruthless savages.

Damn, it must be time for me to put that bone in my nose and go "OOOOGA BOOOGA BANG BANG"

Tom vs Tek is sorta like watchin' two blind people in a fencing match using flaming pickles instead of swords.

Re. Indians in N. & S. America -

Tom: "They were ruthless savages. They lived and died by killing each other. We introduced them to modern things like Dentistry and medicine."

After I stopped laughing, I had to point out, once again, in the interest of being 'Fair & Balanced', the whites came here fleeing Europe, a continent that had been the scene of hundreds of years of constant, savage killing of 'each other'. ie. We got nuttin' on the Comanches and Souix et al when it comes to butchery; heck, we even had a "Hundred Years War" fer cryin' out loud.

re: Dentistry and Medicine - Lord knows they needed lots of 'medicine' after we imported that pesky 'smallpox' gift.

Just tryin' to keep up the educational aspects of BC. (It is non-profit, y'know)

PS: Man, as much as I hate to end up in Big Al's alleged "neo-confederate, baby-eatin', slave-ownin'" camp, I do agree that sometimes ya gotta kill for peace. Plus -- I love it when he gets pissed.

Carry on.

Well Shark... Thanks for taking the time to insult me.

Tek! Wait!

Wasn't meant as an insult, just an image of two people goin' at it with the improper tools for the particular warfare in which they find themselves engaged.

---And never really 'striking' one another in the process.

capeesh?

No, capeesh. I would never say something so ignorant as:

They were ruthless savages. They lived and died by killing each other. We introduced them to modern things like Dentistry and medicine.


To put me in the same class as someone who would make a statement like that IS VERY insulting.

The constancy with which the likes of Al Barger, Psycho Shark and Tom Bux want to oppress and kill people is telling. It tells us who the real savages are.

Tek, you swerved off the highway and bounced off an obscure guard-rail somewhere back there when you steered this Palestinian/Israeli Hummer of a conversation into...

Yeah, that is what the white slave-masters were saying to the blacks and Indians and Asians etc... about 150 years ago.

-and-

You're right Al... the white people when into a land that was not theirs, set up their own rules, then called the people who lived there ruthless savages when they would not conform to the white mans rule.

What can I say? My head hit the windshield, and I blame everybody, including you, Tom, Al, Columbus, and oppressed Native Americans everywhere.

(Watch out for those emotional telephone poles!)

The constancy with which the likes of Al Barger, Psycho Shark and Tom Bux want to oppress and kill people is telling. It tells us who the real savages are.

Well, I can't speak for the Boyz, but we're talking about ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, dear. Y'know, the most racist, oppressive bastards on the planet? You're big on racists and oppressors; you tell us every other friggin' post, so I should think you'd applaud their demise.

Or do you only wish death and 'misfortune' to American writers you happen to disagree with?

So yeah. Fine, MacHypocrite, if it comes down to me or them, it's always gonna be me.

(And I want to live for no other reason than to irritate you!)

Well, I'm sorry Shark if you have a problem with following along about when stereotypes are wrong. I don't think it is okay for anyone to write off a whole group of people or make false statements. The examples of other peoples in the past whom westerners did not understand and decided should be treated poorly has everything to do with this post.

There is one thing I can say... when I post things and I have issue with people, it is with individuals. I may wish harm on a few people, but I don't think that everyone in their family, their religion or their group deserves to be wiped out or harmed. I find attitudes like that archaic, infantile, and not really useful for solving the problem. What was suggested here was basically genocide... but hey... its genocide of those Palestinians who are basically bad people and the children deserve this because their parent brought it on themselves.

Once again, I go back to 150, 200, 300 years in the past and point out that is the same attitude that has enslaved people and abused people all along. It's not cultured. Its not informed. Its not civilized.

But then again, Barger even said himself that he has no interest in this.

Mock me all you want. Insult me all you want. The fact of the matter is that I would never suggest and a large group of people which included the innocent as well as children "DESERVE their oppression and misery". That is a vile thing to say and in the end does not solve the problem.

But if you want to compare me to the like of Tom Bux who writes stupid posts about "Liberal of the Week" and then goes on to talk about wine tasting and coffee, or writes things like "They were ruthless savages. They lived and died by killing each other. We introduced them to modern things like Dentistry and medicine. " or even dare put me in the same class as Al Barger, you can kiss my ass.

There is one thing to not agree with someone. I can accept that. We all aren't going to agree. But when you decide to insult people, that is when the mitts come off.

Even more telling, no one wants to go back before 1948. Why is that? Is that because I might just be correct in what I am saying. That maybe, just maybe if you study up, you might get a different perspective?

But if you truly understood what Zionism stands for, you would see that it is one of the most racist things on this planet. At least one thing can be said for Islam. It doesn't matter what color you are in Islam. A muslim is a muslim, is a muslim. Islamic terrorist can be Arab, Asian, or caucasian.

But hey, lets all do our 5 minute hate for the Palestinians. Kill them all. Kill everything that just won't do it our way.

Kill
Kill
Kill

For shits and giggles... look up some Asian philosophy and religion. If they weren't on our side, and were at war with us... they would be blowing themselves up too and destroying civilians. That is the way of war among desperate people. It doesn't make it correct. It doesn't make it right. But if you cannot even hope to try to understand the culture or philosophy, how can you even hope to stop the carnage?

With more carnage?

Yes, very logical.

Oh.. and Shark... Mac Diva says some things sometimes which I really don't agree with... I don't always like the tone of her respnoses but that doesn't mean that you should have a boner for her and follow her around from thread to thread, stirring the pot. Same thing with that gorilla post. Usually I find you witty, but that was an obvious attempt to rile.

After reading your response to this post, I now understand better however. You are not a believer in trying to take the high road, or tying get over an issue. Hence your stance here. Nothing is ever solved by picking at sores and two wrongs NEVER make a right.

Oh yes, Ms Tek, Miss High Road. Cha. And I want to hear about following somebody around from you or Mac Diva on MY frickin' post.

Granted that Shark has a bit of liberal vision which causes him to veer a bit left of center from time to time (either that or booze), but he DOES try to keep his eyes on the road. Thus, he tries to make his interpretations based on what's actually going on in reality, rather than looking for some cheap race baiting.

It's bad enough for people to be blaming the Jews for killing Jesus, but at least that was kind of documented. Now Ms Tek wants to give the Jews crap for African slaves and Native Americans getting screwed.

Miss Tek, the Jews did not do jack squat to the Indians. Let's leave them out of this.

Again, the underlying dishonesty of your position shines through: "Kill everything that just won't do it our way." Let me rephrase it in a more precise way to make my meaning unmistakable. I say, "Kill everyone who is trying to kill US, and the Israelis should kill everyone who is trying to kill them."

It is not two wrongs for Israel to kill Yassin. It is many wrongs- by Yassin, and ONE big right, by the Israelis.

Now Victoria wants to give the Jews crap for African slaves and Native Americans getting screwed.

Miss Victoria, the Jews did not do jack squat to the Indians. Let's leave them out of this.

Barger, you are a disgusting liar. Thank God you can't delete comments. Anyone who reads through this will see you lying on me right there.

Listen Barger, you slimy little snake with your slimy little snake dance, you cannot twist my words to mean something they do not, no matter how hard you try. I don't follow you around. I make comments on the things you post without trying to stir you up. However, insult me and you too can kiss my ass.

My post stands. Anyone with half a brain who can think for themselves will see your antics without me pointing it out. Lie, dance, wiggle all you want. If you can't debate the post without twisting my words around, accusing me of saying something that I am not then just don't bother. It only makes you look more pathetic.

Oh... and Shark... Its not fair to include Bux in the same vein as Barger. At least Bux says what he means and doesn't slime around issues or flat out lie on peopl. I never agree with him but at least hes upfront. I can respect that.

I hate slimy people.

Aw crap, my head just hit the frickin' windshield with Ms Tek. I went down into the bottom part of #18, and saw this:

At least one thing can be said for Islam. It doesn't matter what color you are in Islam. A muslim is a muslim, is a muslim. Islamic terrorist can be Arab, Asian, or caucasian.

That has to be one of the most corrupt, jaw-dropping pieces of dumbassery I've seen in a while. Why, the Muslims are a Rainbow Frickin' Coalition of terror. How nice. Sure, they're, you know, EVIL MURDERING TERRRORISTS- but at least they're not racists about it.

Of course, I'd like to see you tell that to the Jews.

Why, the Muslims are a Rainbow Frickin' Coalition of terror. How nice. Sure, they're, you know, EVIL MURDERING TERRRORISTS- but at least they're not racists about it.


Why yes, Barger... ALL MUSLIMS ARE OUT TO KILL YOU. MUSLIMS ARE EVIL MURDERING TERRORISTS. ALL OF THEM. KILL THEM ALL BEFORE THEY KILL YOU.

And not all Jews have problems with Arabs. Not all Jews are zionists who think that non-jews are less than human. Not all Muslims hate Americans or think we are the great Satan and want to kill us. There are actually a lot of cool Jewish and Muslims out there who were doing fine until the west butt its big head in and fucked up things as power for the course.

But you are too pig headed to perhaps do a little research on that.

Au contraire, Ms Pitt, I have no intention or desire of deleting comments. YOU are the one who insists on dragging every bit of White Man Sin karma and throwing it on to the Israelis, who are mostly just trying not to get killed.

You're just a veritable fount of sympathy for the Palestinians, discounting their wickedness. I'm glad to let the written record reflect who YOU think are the good guys, versus who I'm siding with.

Look, I try to be nice, but you BEG for insults. I'm just trying to keep the customer satisfied- but don't be baiting me with bitter insults and then whine when you get busted down.

Whining sounds particularly unappealing coming from someone as spiteful and hateful as you.

Again with your purposeful, hysterical dishonesty in comment #24 Ms. Tek, "ALL MUSLIMS ARE OUT TO KILL YOU. MUSLIMS ARE EVIL MURDERING TERRORISTS. ALL OF THEM. KILL THEM ALL BEFORE THEY KILL YOU."

I was responding to and quoting your specific comment: "A muslim is a muslim, is a muslim. Islamic terrorist can be Arab, Asian, or caucasian."

How do you get what YOU say I meant out of that? YOU were talking specifically about terrorists, not just general Muslims.

Here's one of the key differences I've noticed in our debating techniques: I criticize what you actually say vs YOU just make up dumb stuff and say it's what I really secretly meant.

I notice that you repeatedly accuse me of not saying what I REALLY mean. Where do you get that?

**rolls eyes**

Actually, I never said who I think the good guys are because the truth is that they are both totally wrong. This is one of those cases where both have fucked up too many times to be innocent.

Yet, never once did I say anyone deserved misery (beside YOU PERSONALLY Barger). You said that you thought that the Palestinians deserved it and basically their children deserved it because they brought it on themselves.
I checked you on that comment and you don't like it. I give a fuck? You want to call me "spiteful and hateful" yet not once have I ever condemned a whole people.

Do I hate you Barger? Why yes I do, I think you are a sleezy person. You also have now taken to flat out lying on people in posts. I have every reason to hate you. Thats my job... To keep wankers like you in check.

Do I hate Jews? Not at all.
Do I hate Palestinians? Not at all.
Do I hate Indians from India? Nope.
Do I hate Blacks? No?
Whites? No?
Asians? No?

I only dislike people who have gone out of their way to cause me personal grief. Some muslims may have blown up planes and people, but that doesn't speak for all muslims so I have no reason to hate them all or wish them ill will. Would I rather have my country to have nothing at all to do with that- Yes. Ill will. No.

And I pose to you:

You take an infant or Palestinian child, hold them by the hand and look in their eye and say "YOU DESERVE your oppression and misery. Your people have largely absolutely brought their current suffering on themselves."

You go on Al and say that. And the you tell me who the hateful and spiteful person is.

And I'll make this even more interesting for you Barger... two of my boyfriends have been Jewish. Not Orthodox, they would not have been able to date me. But they were Jewish. I don't have a problem with mass groups of people. I like anyone who is nice, intelligent, and kind. I have a problem with individuals. A concept you have a hard time grasping.

Get a room.

Ms. Tek, I don't see a thing in the world wrong with my tone. Indeed, it amuses me that so many people in the blogosphere grumble about the handful who write well. If I misspelled at least one word per sentence or my grammar was atrocious, I don't believe I would be hearing about my 'tone.' If you can spare a moment from playing kiss-kiss with Psycho Shark, do take a moment to explain your comment.

Nor do I find Psycho Shark 'witty.' Perhaps you are confusing the word with 'sh!tty.'

Rrrroww. Girls, girls. This is where I get scratched now. Which I don't go for. No killing, no scratching! is my motto. But I realize too there's an element of sport in all this, and it's fun to scroll through these horrific fights, which is fine as long as nobody says something they can't take back.

See, the way I see it is this. You two, and I mean Tek and Diva, need to see Al and Shark for what they are in relation to you. Their behavior is obviously brotherly in the worst possible sense. If you've ever had a brother you probably know what I mean. What they are doing is a variation on an old game called teasing. These grown men, sitting all by themselves in cold dark rooms drinking warm lite beers, lit only by the moonblue of their monitors, ashes all over everything, could be their mother's ashes they're so disorganized, all night pushing your buttons like you're some kind of a pinball machine. Sistas! Srong witchew?

You don't fight this shit! you walk away from it, and if you're cool, you dance away.

Opinionwise I go with the sisters on most issues, but then again guys, realize, this is only because I visualize you all as professional wrestlers.

Someday Eric will force us to post our pictures and the world will see the truth. Actually, my truth isn't bad, I must say. You can do a lot with Photoshop.

Who's this Vic guy, as in Victor or whatever that this guy Al's talking about as if somebody else's private business is his?

Now, children, behave yo'selves! (I'm dancing) (still dancing but farther away, still in range...) (okay you could take me down down now... or you could wait)

Strange but I find myself agreeing with Al Barger on this topic. They should have killed this lunatic years ago. What annoyed me the most in the aftermath, was diplomats from Jack Straw to the figure head that is Kofi Anaan calling him a "leader". He was a leader of a terrorist group. Therefore, he was a terrorist. Clothe him in spiritual leader title if you like but that is a complete nonsense.

The old fart was a terrorist and a terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. Therefore, he was a legitimate target and the Israeli's whose attitude to terrorism I applaud, took him out. They've promised to take out more of his kind. Thank you God. If we waited for the West to kill these terrorists and treat them as they should be treated, they would be having dinner at the UNHQ when the whole world would be blown up by suicide bombers ranging from ages 10 to 90. Spare me the diplomatic bullshit.

I was impressed with Condoleeza giving tacit support to the Israeli's but ofcourse later on, the White House chickened out and said they were "troubled" by the killing. Well, the Israeli's will also be troubled if you kill Bin laden. Afterall, he is a spiritual leader to some of these islamic fundmaentalists a.k.a terrorists.

The Israelis do what they have to do and if you are foolish enough to go and be a human shield like those British students. you will be smashed as well. I don't know what it is with these crazy human shield people. There was only one Jesus Christ. You will die for no good reason.

I am not one for generalising but these Islamic fundamentalists really are one and the same. They are always angry. Nothing can appease them. Just look at those idiots in Basra. Demonstrating over light and water and suddenly hearing the events in the Palestine, chanting that they are all sons of this paraplegic that was killed. They were throwing stones at the soldiers. If they had been shot..the international world would scream that the coalition are killing innocent citizens. The people are an ungrateful bunch of illiterates and I have little time for their problems precisely BECAUSE the way they go about trying to make their point is inhumane, barbaric and should not evoke sympathy or understanding in any human being. Period.

A terrorist is a coward. They live in caves. Spend their lives hiding and running. They brainwash others to go and kill people and kill themselves in the process because they are too cowardly to live and suffer the consequences of their acts. They never attack the powers that be. They attack soft targets who are unarmed and innocent. In the next published dictionary. A synonym for terrorist should be coward.

The Kurds are in the same position as the Palestinians. Why are the Muslims not up in arms about that? Because its two Muslim sects fighting. The reason for the whole Arab world jumping at any opportunity to show support to the Palestinians is because their fight is with a non-muslim country. The Islamic fundamentalists want Islam to dominate the world. There is no doubt about that. The reason I am quite willing to look on every Arab with suspicion, every Muslim even, is because I am yet to meet one who does not empathise with the Palestinians and understand their sucide bombing. I am yet to meet one who like every normal human being clearly condemns 9/11 without understanding the so called reasons behind it. They may say it is wrong but they always have a reason as to why it is right. I am sorry. I can not treat such people with anything more than disdain.

There is a difference in trying to kill Hamas, islamic Jihad, al qaeda and so on and maybe inadvertently killing passer-bys or poor innocents used as human shields by these callous bastards to the targetting of the public as a whole that these suicide bombers and terrorists do. If the Arab world fails to see the difference and understands such acts, I am with anyone who says damn them all to hell. Ariel Sharon is the right person for the Job cos he could not give a monkey's ass what the international world has to say. He himself is an extremist of a different kind.

Go live in Israel for one week with your family sleeping everynight and not knowing if it's your last or not knowing if your child will come back from school, then perhaps all these Palestinian sympathisers would not be so quick to spew nonsense on our Tv screens.

Now, the liberated Iraqis are rioting on behalf of hassin. Like they do not have enough problems. I am not sure what this Islam teaches but if it's students are testament to it's lessons, then I am afraid we can well do without it in this world.

I don't know how the Black people being oppressed by white people discussion got related to this topic. They are two seperate things entirely in my view, therefore I will not even bother contributing to that part of this discussion.

Let them keep threatening revenge, the Israelis will continue to kill them all and sooner or later they will heed the lesson that people with sticks, stones and bricks and handmade bombs should not fight with people with nuclear capability. Sooner or later, these imbecilic vagabonds will learn that lesson. I for one, look forward to it.

Mac,

Spelling and grammar are fine and great. When once writing important pieces of literature, a must.

But that is not the only thing in the world.

I think you need understand that everyone is entitled to their opinons. Just because you have not found some of Sharks posts witty doesn't mean they are not.

Notice, this is not "kiss kiss" with anyone. I don't play "sides". I call it how I see it. I have called shark on when he was being shitty and various other people. As far as I am concerned on Blogcritics, no one is on my side.

What I find wrong with some of your comments Diva is that sometimes you do launch into people when they have done anything yet. What you said to the porn guy in my opinon was crap. If you don't like it, fine... but he wasn't being a dick so why insult him? I'm all for if someone whales into you, then you have every right to sting in kind. The point is that I have seen times when you have been abrasive before there was a reason to be.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you get abrasive. You can get abrasive when the personal insults start flying.

You know, last night I was thinking how this place really hasn't been enlightening or fun for almost the past two months. It all really started to go down hill for me after the Yeagely bullshit. There has been a general nastiness. I tried to stay above it and unfortunatly, after Barger's crap, seeing people run around and hunt each other on here, it no longer is interesting. This isn't Eric's fault really. Its everyone's fault.

I think its high time I step away from here for a bit. I'm getting dragged into shit that I don't usually get into. I just have this thing about people who lie, twist words, dance, and throw insults when they have nothing else better to say. As I said before, I don't mind if you disagree. Thats life. I just cannot abide by liars, and shit stirrers, and flames just for the sake of flames. I did that shit in high school. Time to check out because I don't choose to relive high school.

Call it as you see it. Be honest. Tell the truth, and I may not agree with you, but I will respect you. Anything less can kiss my ass.

Take care all. I wish you well.

Sandra, if it weren't for your opinions on music and homosexuality you'd be a genius. I pretty much agree with your entire stance here, down to the nuance. Istill have concerns about timing: why now? Maybe it was just a window of opportunity and they would have done it any time they could. I need to look into this more.

History gets written by the guys that won the war...

Terrorists in caves, cowards you called them, are the other guys heroes. You on the other hand are the other guys manifestation of satan, lord of flies.

Reading this thread the other guys might be right.

Heroes are terrorists that won and, usually, got killed in the process.

Which is probably why they get their virgins in the afterlife. not like us, enlightened ones, who appreciate their women while they live, breath... and well, other stuff to. Maybe you all should meet, Bring Your Own Bomb. Would make a great internet broadcast. Maybe even a movie...

Bern, who are the "other guys" and what might they be right about?

Tek, I'm glad you recognize that the conversations follow their own course and no one person can do much about it. i agree there has been a higher level of animosity than usual, but it's hardly unique. Read the comments and posts from a year ago about the war.

The dynamic here changes all the time, people come and go, moods shift, disagreements come and go and mutate. i would very much like to see them be less personal and I would VERY much like to see people not be so eager to categorize others and write them off accordingly.

Al

Your misguided piece fails to recognise this most essential point: in the civilised world, the means is as important as the end. The Israelis have the most sophisticated secret service in the world. The idea that they could not bring a paraplegic in a wheel chair to justice is incredible. The means to uphold the standards of civility was within their grasp, yet they chose to reduced themselves to the same barbarous idealogy that the terrorists cherish. This disqualifies them from membership of the very exclusive club of civilised nations, and of claim to our support for their ambitions.

And your assessment of the deterrant power of this act of barbarism, and our capacity to resist any backlash is wholly misplaced. I suspect you have not been keeping up on current affairs and may not be aware that a European government changed hands recently as a consequence of terrorist intervention. The American, British and Australian publics are now under direct threat as a consequence of these and related actions. You appear not to appreciate the basic asymmetry of the struggle against terrorism: we have to get it right every time; they ony have to get it right once. You cannot exhaust a foe pitched against you under such unequal terms.

I suggest you think very carefully through your position on some of the issues you touch on in your honourless piece.

In the meantime, a message from the civilised world: "stay off our side".

Aww shucks Eric! I feel the same about you too. If not for your views on music(especially) homosexuality and every other issue where you do not agree with me, you would be a genius.

I haven't bothered to think about the timing. I trust you will fill us in when you look into it some more. Thanks.

Rich Lyon, it's people with your point of view that will be at the dinner table discussing what International Court of Justice will hear the case when you catch the terrorist, while the world around you is being destroyed and the very UNHQ you sit in being inundated with letters filled with Anthrax. The very civilisation you uphold systematically being destroyed by barbarians while you keep discussing in a "civilised" manner how to bring the terrorist to Justice.
Wake up and smell the nescafe. Shit happens! It's a dirty job but Israel is prepared to do it. Instead of the diplomatic world to be quietly grateful, they are giving eye serice to the Arab world and trying to appease their perpetual anger.

Let them threaten till Kingdom come, when the shit hits the fan we'll see who truly has the tools to eliminate anybody. Since the accusations are that the Israeli's want to eliminate Palestinians while HAMAS have boldly stated in their articles that their aim is to eliminate Jews and destroy the state of Israel. I think if Israel is left to do what they have to do for their own security, Hamas and terrorists alike will learn to pick their battles.

Eric,

The other guys are people that agree with the sentiment that the western world is the source of all evil. They might be right about thinking about us as evil if we start defending murder, especially when do it in the way some people on this thread relate to eachother.

But on-topic: I can understand the reasons for the execution of Yassin. I can't defend it, or describe it as wise. I think Huntington stated that the West won the world not by a superior morality, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence.

The guy with the bigger gun isn't the 'good guy' until he chooses not to shoot. After we'll work on giving the 'other guys' ground for not shooting eather.

and Sandra. A terrorist is like a hydra. Every head you chop off, will grow back sevenfold. Every terrorist you kill is a martyr who is to be avenged and a great propagandatool for recruitment. Shoot one get 7 free. Neat trick, but wise or just... Off course those are just words

Bern, okay then, from your perspective if killing terrorists isn't the answer, then what is? What is the best approach?

You are not going to back down from terrorists right. Good. Are terrorists going to back down from you? Not many people allow themselves to get bombed into submission. It will take a lot more bullets and bombs than Israel has to stop the hate that fuels this terrorism. And then what? You've bombed them into submission. What have you become? I agree with Rich's statement that "means" matter. On top of that you've just made people hate you more. I know you're not a terrorist. I know, I know, I know a million times that you're not but you're using their tactics (violence) so you've taken one step closer to them.

I want Israel to be safe. I just don't think they are going about it the right way. And I think they are losing their ideals in the process.

IMO, the battle with fundamentalist Islam will be the primary historical event dominating the 21st century.

It will take decades, generations -- to change the minds of these monsters. Ideally, that's where the long-term solution lies. Education, ie. Starbucks. McDonalds. Coke. Levis. Britney. A Palestinian Idol show. Get these deprived undomesticated primates to value something other than imaginary blond virgins in the afterlife.

Replace Allah with Dolla, as in $20 bills.

We won Russia and China over, not with guns or assassinations, but by making them as corrupt and materialistic Consumers as we are.

Get those Islamic fuckers a Wal-Mart.

But meanwhile, kill every one of them who even thinks about fixing up a pipe bomb and climbing on a bus.

Shark, that strategy hasn't gotten rid our fundamentalists (Robertson, Falwell, et al). If anything, fundamentalism seems to be a response to commercialism.

Also, the Palestinian conflict is about land more than anything else. They only dress it up in religion because that's how they tell themselves apart. The conflict won't end until each side is satisfied with how much territory they've got, and at this point neither seems to be.

JR: ...that strategy hasn't gotten rid our fundamentalists (Robertson, Falwell, et al). If anything, fundamentalism seems to be a response to commercialism."

Good point. Nevermind.

Actually, though, our Falwells and Robertsons don't want to blow up everything. They want to buy up everthing.

Y'know, fer Christ.

JR, I think Fundamentalism is basically a response to something "important" slipping away via cultural means; whether it's morals, lifestyle, cadillacs, chicks, etc. -- fundamentalism is always a response to external cultural pressures on one's 'possessions' -- whether concrete or abstract. (ie taking your tax money, gated communties, or morals of your burka clad daughters)

ie. An attempt to hang on to what you've got.

(Which means that it's always a losing battle, but unfortunately, a VERY long-term battle.)

Good points all here, and the fact that they are diametrically opposed to each other and coming from people I believe to be of good faith demonstrates how very difficult the topic is.

Can you kill all the terrorists? No, but you maybe able to get enough to cripple the organization from at logistical standpoint, and dissuade others from joining because the cause is lost. I'm not sure what the answer is with the Palestinians, though, because their cause has been lost from the beginning and logic seems to have no bearing on them whatsoever.

We will have to see what the direct result of the removal of Yassin from the planet will be.

Stereotypes tend to originate with true observations. If you think I am wrong, please feel free to explain why you think so.

My modest response is here:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/03/23/072848.php

Jeff said: "Not many people allow themselves to get bombed into submission. It will take a lot more bullets and bombs than Israel has to stop the hate that fuels this terrorism. And then what? You've bombed them into submission. What have you become?"

Well, what you havent become is a Muslim by force, or a dhimmi..you know what a dhimmi is right? (look it up if you dont) It's a second class citizen who bows down to Muslim masters. (Take a look around the 'Muslim world', the few non-muslims left there are dhimmis! you better not get outta line or to uppity as a jew or christian in muslim-majority lands, had you?)
Jews won't be dhimmis anymore, they were for a LONG time in the muslim empire(caliphate). Then they got the hell outta there for better shores in 'enlightened Europe'..well we all know what happened to them there.
Ovens!
So hell yeah they deserve a state in their ancient homeland, where jews ALWAYS lived. They decided to not put their fate into anyone's hands but their own, with damn good reason, don't ya think?
And for you others who want to compare the palestinians to native Americans, you got is backwards, if anyone is comparable to native Americans, its the Jews not the Arabs!
And you know what, if Israel didnt exist any longer, do you think Muslim fundies (and not so fundies come to think of it) would all of a sudden love them some Jews? HA! They would still want to murder them, one by one.
It's not about Israel, the state, it's about Jews getting uppity and demaning their rights and control of their own destiny, not be at the 'mercy' of Muslim masters...that is what it is about.
(And dont give me that BS about the jews can live somewhere else, they DID! and they got gas chambers and ovens!)
You gonna protect the Jews from the Islamist Jew-hating murderers you say?
They say NO THANKS, we will protect ourselves!
And the Palestinians don't want no state, give me a ef'ing break...why didnt they take one when it was offered at the same time Israel was created?? Instead they declared war on Israel...fast forward, why didnt they take a state during the Olso accord?? offering them 95% of what they wanted?? Instead they declared a war on Israel.(the intifada now)
Hmm..put two and two together.
Don't be a dupe for Islamic propaganda.
It's all a lie..or rather an 'image' they want to portray...but its a false image.
The reality is a viscious hate that is so deep they will kill their own children to kill a jew.
This is not about a land dispute, wake the ef up!

Never Surrender to the terrorist scum

Sandra Smallson: "it's people with your point of view that will be at the dinner table..." Sandra, as a former military pilot, I have been shot at by terrorists. My contribution to bringing terrorists to justice has been rather more than discussion. With respect, you have no more idea of what sort of person I am than you have of what sort of people terrorists are.

The very civilisation you uphold systematically being destroyed by barbarians If, in the course of their actions, they cause us to remember and live by our principles, they strengthen our civilisation. It is those who betray our principles - as Israel consistently does - who are weakening our civilisation.

It's a dirty job but Israel is prepared to do it To be accurate, the dirty job that Israel is prepared to do is invest $1bn of US money in the construction of a security wall to destroy farms and businesses in a land in which, 100 years ago, they constituted less than 1% of the population. And bombing paraplegics with remote standoff weapons from assault helicopters (killing two bystanders in the process).

and trying to appease their perpetual anger One terrorist group I have been shot at by is the IRA, at the time an organisation implacably dedicated to the destruction of the presence of my country. That organisation now participates in a legitimate, democratic political process and there have been no killings for years. I can think of no greater illustration of the emptiness of the argument you propose.

when the shit hits the fan we'll see who truly has the tools to eliminate anybody. You will recall that Vietnam ended, not because America defeated its enemy, but because the American people ran out of stomach for the body bag count. Your words are admirably brave but quite lacking in any historical precedent. It gives me no pleasure to point out that the emptiness of your bluster will be revealed when Britain and America are bombed during our respective election run-ups by the new generation of Al Qa'ida terrorists.

Hamas and terrorists alike will learn to pick their battles. Quote: "You want to live. We want to die" (Al Qua'ida). You repeat and repeat and repeat the fatal mistake of drawing a conclusion based on an assumption of rational behaviour, when the behaviour is in fact irrational. You will not teach them this way.

Rich, it was not meant as a personal insult. I said people with your point of view. My father has your point of view so he too would be at this hypothetical dinner table in my opinion. Therefore, I don't need to know who you are and your being a pilot is irrelevant to me. It was not meant as a personal insult so please, do not take it as such.

I beg to differ on the point of them stregthening our civilisation by their actions. I don't see how not retaliating and instead persisting on a diplomatic course shows our civilisation. It makes sense to try diplomacy. If it has not worked for more than 30 years, it makes even more sense to try another option. It may not work as well but to insist that one continues knocking ones head against a wall is unrealistic. What makes you think barbarians understand diplomacy? If they did, they would not be barbarians now, would they?!

Your next point..is it the fact that it is U.S dollars being used that causes you grievance? Because if it's bombing paraplegics with "remote" weapons, I respectfully submit that, that is no point at all. Go and tell the woman whose three children were killed by a suicide bomber just because they were at university, that you think the bombing of the man who orchestrated the killing of all her children is a wasted effort. It sounds nice taking the high road, but once again, completely unrealistic. The palestinians destroy their own fair share of infrastructure and quite frankly we can go back 400 years if you like. The issue of who rightly owns the land has not been sold on me, so again, we disagree on that point.

The IRA is always the grp people who advocate diplomacy jump too when trying to show that theirs is a better way to proceed. What you all fail to note is that, that is an exception to the rule. Moreover, you may be in a better position to comment on this than I am but I think the Islamic fundamentalists are clearly a higher breed of terrorists than the IRA ever were. Ofcourse, a terrorist is a terrorist but I can't imagine that you truly think even if a deal was worked out with hamas(which is highly unlikely because nothing appeases Islamic fundamentalist)..I can't believe you think they would cesae their killings. Hezbollah will come up with something else. As will the other sects. These are not people with set objectives they are fighting for. They move from one problem to another. The cold harsh truth that Peace advocates have to realise is that, their aim is destruction of western culture or Zionist nations as they see it.

Your next point..I think you comparing the war against terror to the Vietnam war is a wrong comparison. I don't dare think that you suggest that the Palestinians can somehow defeat the Israelis in a miltary war? Nor that you think Alquaeda can defeat the Americans and Israelis in a military war? If they bomb either the Brits or Americans, they will do it in their usual cowardly way which is to bomb and run or bomb and kill themselves. Now, how does that prove your point or show that my bravery is misguided?

Finally, you've hit the nail on the haed. These terrorists are irrational. They want to die. Yet you suggest that the civilised world sends its leaders to have a round table discussion/negotiation with these same people that you have admitted are irrational and are willing to die? Where is the sense in that? What sense are you making? Are we supposed to run away from them and let them do what they want because we want to live and they want to die?

It's a fair point to say that if we continue killing them, more of their kind will be bred and it will run in circles. That's just the way of the world, Rich. At the end of the day, advocates of a non-violent resolution have no realistic solution to this problem. They project fantasies. Give palestinians a state. Hezbollah will want all westerners out of Saudi. Get all westerners out of Saudi, Islamic Jihad will want france to be classified as a Muslim nation. These people are irrational barbarians who have distorted the Islamic faith to define it as a faith that insists they be consistently at war with what they see as non believers. If you think that you have peaceful solutions to all their problems and they will stop their actions if all that is done, I have to tell you, you are living in a dreamland.

Why shouldn't they overwhelm or exhaust the enemy? Their can be no question as to the persistence otherwise of the terrorist bombers in Israel. The Palestinians will be instantly better off. Presently they only want to overwhelm or exhaust Israel, and everyone would be worse off, or dead.

Smallson wrote: "At the end of the day, advocates of a non-violent resolution have no realistic solution to this problem."

At the end of the day, advocates of a violent resolution have no reasonable, humane, or moral solution to this problem. In fact, they only assure death and destruction. IMO, violence is never the answer -- it is only a continuation of the hideousness that is life as we know it, a hideousness that so many of you prize for some unfathomable reason.

This rhetoric comes with no intention of debating anyone; I merely need to speak my, um, peace in the midst of the stomach-turning commentary here by people who frighten me more and more each time I visit here...

As always, I pray for peace for the people of Israel and Palestine. And I pray the terrorists of the Sharon government and the terrorists of Hamas and the terrorists of the Sharon-supporting Bush administration -- and those who support any of these terrorists -- will find the good that lurks in the apparently very dark recesses of their souls and stop the madness.

War and violence are not -- ever -- the answer. How I worry and fear for those of you who insist that it is and has been. In Germany? In Japan? Maybe your team of terrorists won, but in the long run, the world has gone to hell. Just look around.

What a horrible world this is. What a wonderful world I imagine it could be, but only if we...

You get the idea.

Enough from the broken-hearted pacifist. Carry on.

Natalie, your post is filled with wonderful sentiments. All of which I am sure a majority of the world would love to embrace. However, it is unrealistic.

I dont dispute that the violent solution may appear unreasonable and all those things you say it is BUT I have never offered it up as a "SOLUTION". I have stated it as something that needs to be done. I do not know what the solution is. That is the difference b/w people with my point of view and the pacifists.

The pacifists claim to know the solution. Yet, they never offer up any realistic options. I don't know if decapitating Hamas, hezbollah etc will leesen their attacks. I don't know if they are completely wiped out, others will not grow. I don't know. But we damn well better try. Cos all the talking has not worked for decades, will not work, because we are dealing with inhumane people.
Just yesterday a 14 yr old was arrested at the checkpoint by Israeli soldiers. He had explosives strapped around him. He had been sent by the militants. He was asked, did he want to die, he said no but the militants sent him and paid him the equivalent of 13 pounds. Is he supposed to use the money in hell? It shows you that these people are illiterates and that is why they are so easily brainwashed. 11 days ago, a 12 yr old was caught in the same situation. These are the people that you suggest taking a diplomatic course..people who are willing to send kids to their deaths, to prove their point, they say..about LAND?

I think, if I am one of the people frightening you everyday on this site, then you are easily frightened. If anything this site leaves me worried as I have discovered levels of all the wrong things in far too many people in one place but thats a different story and irrelevant in the braodspan of things.

What you should be frightened about, is the prospect that, one day, 9/11 will not be a rare event on U.S soil..you may find yourself living in the everyday danger of terrorist attacks that the Israeli's live in. You simply will not be able to go about your activities and live your life.

Maybe then, you will understand why the Israeli's pay no attention to people who live outside the fire telling them to engage in "talks".

If killing terrorists isn't the answer, then what is? What is the best approach?

It is much easier to identify the wrong approach as usual. I think that dealing with terror outside of the judicial systems that are in place we are giving up a lot of the values that make the liberal democracy the 'least bad' system of government. It is when we decide to spread murder and mayhem and then call it justice that we are really giving in to terrorism. When we then follow up and explain how a substantial part of the world population deserves the downtrodden situation they find themselves in that I believe we are positively lost.

A solution, in my mind, first entails unilaterally ending violence. Don't retaliate, vengeance is a dish served cold anyway. Organized violence can be used for self defence. But defense can never be a preemptive measure, the notion used is that of a 'clear and present danger'. Killing the leader isn't even much of a defense anyway. Leaders will only be replaced by other leaders. An old man in a wheelchair will only be followed by a younger man probably not (yet) in a wheelchair. The killing of Yassin can only be effective in subdueing terror when combined with large scale oppression or the willingness to destroy the larger part of the palestinian people. A river of blood indeed.

One would have to look for a dialogue. Don't tell me that you can't talk to terrorists because they are irrational. Or that talking to terrorists equates to giving in to them. In their own worldview terrorists are highly rational and even calculative. Their act gives their families economic support and gives them a right hand seat to God himself. That's rational in my book. Just a different rationality.

Start by finding little practical things to agree about. Identify grass root movements towards democracy in the middle east, help those and more importantly don't interfere with them. Take note of developments in Iran, where the a powerfull force towards democracy can be seen. Maybe not a copy of the western liberal model. I would settle for an eastern liberal democracy over theocratical rulers (read mullahs) every time though.

It would be a slow process, maybe a seemingly infinite one. But at the very least we would stop falling for the fallacy that our morality need not apply to those that do not wish us well. Let's all join hands and wish them well, whether or not they want to bomb us.

Peace to you all

(picture me removing the flowers from my hair and getting back into the three piece suit the modern hippy idealist prefers)

Sandra Smallson: it was not meant as a personal insult. I said people with your point of view. My father has your point of view I'm not in the least insulted. I am, rather, gently amused at the certainty with which you believe you've been able to determine my "point of view" from 4 paragraphs sufficiently well enough to declare them to be like your father's. However certain you may feel you understand it, I think it is wildly improbably that you actually do.

your being a pilot is irrelevant to me. The point that should be relevant to you and evidently isn't is that I have been the direct target of hostile intent. Those who have are not generally described as being "sleepy", so your instruction to me to "wake up" could be evidence that there are other aspects of my argument you have not quite grasped yet, either.

I don't see how not retaliating and instead persisting on a diplomatic course shows our civilisation. Really? That is very sad. Would you characterise that as an emotional response, or one that you feel you have fully thought through? Why not read up on the meaning of the word "retaliate" and reflect on the difference between that and the meaning of "justice"? Do you feel a society that "returns evil for evil" is something you want your children to be part of?

is it the fact that it is U.S dollars being used that causes you grievance? ... The issue of who rightly owns the land has not been sold on me To paraphrase bern above, history gets written by those with the most money. I believe that the enormous income enjoyed by one side, and the difficulty of the other impoverished side to have its case heard, are fundamentally related.

Go and tell the woman whose three children were killed by a suicide bomber just because they were at university, that you think the bombing of the man who orchestrated the killing of all her children is a wasted effort. And what will you have me say to the women who's children will now be killed because of the lawless killing of that man?

The IRA ... that is an exception to the rule The rule to which there is no exception is that for every terrorist you kill, at least one takes his place. If there are any contrasts, it is that the Irish had something to lose and feared death whereas these terrorists do not and welcome it. This continued inability to think through the consequences of this which you demonstrate is the single greatest source of disbelief for me.

I think you comparing the war against terror to the Vietnam war is a wrong comparison. I wasn't comparing the wars, I was compparing our public's capacity to withstand large body counts. One of the tools you boast of is the strength of public support for an activity that results in a high number of dead americans for a long time. There wasn't any then, even amongst a population a large number of whom had witnessed the 2nd World War. I know of no reason why the soft baby boomer gneration should be stronger. "Let them threaten till Kingdom come" is actually "let them threaten until the implications of a couple of really murderous, undefendable attacks on US infrastructue sinks in on the public".

Yet you suggest that the civilised world sends its leaders to have a round table discussion Errm, no, I didn't - perhaps you are mistaking my post for something your father said at the dinner table...

advocates of a non-violent resolution have no realistic solution to this problem Actually, I have some realy good ideas for solutions which I'd be delighted to share with you. You surely weren't thinking "don't kill people without due legal process" was the only one, did you?

Natalie, you are committing pure evil wickedness with this totally untrue suggestion of moral equivalence in #55: "I pray the terrorists of the Sharon government and the terrorists of Hamas and the terrorists of the Sharon-supporting Bush administration..." Shame on you.

On the other hand, you say "advocates of a violent resolution have no reasonable, humane, or moral solution to this problem." True enough. I just wish you'd get that idea through to the Palestinians and Islamofascist dirtbags in general who not just advocate but insist on violence.

They leave peace loving people like Ariel Sharon no choice but violence. You scream blue bloody murder that you live under great intolerable oppression because the US government does not specifically recognize homosexual marriage, yet you seem to expect the Israelis to just sit back and accept being massacred without doing anything to stop it.

I haven't seen any statistics or such, but some percentage of these murdered Israelis must be gay. I would think that being blown to hell would constitute a far more offensive oppression than simply not issuing you a marriage license. Seems like you'd be more offended at that, more set on seeing that stopped.

And when Palestinians are KILLING you with bullets and bombs, at that point holding hands and singing Kum-Bi-Yah and complaining about Dubya does NOT constitute doing anything.

On the other hand, being for "peace" and denouncing Bush as a "terrorist" might give you a nice warm glow of (faux) moral superiority.

And Bern, this is a BIG load of nonsense: "A solution, in my mind, first entails unilaterally ending violence." Yeah, that'll work. Fine- feel free to just stand there and let jackasses KILL you and your family. Out of the gene pool with you.

Morality and ethics are based on a basic goal of enabling and furthering life. Any supposed morality that says you don't have the right to do whatever you have to do to preserve your life and your family's lives is nothing but crap.

Careful Al, don't get too much spittle on your keyboard.

Preserve your live as you can, defend yourself where you can, use deadly force to defend yourself when necessary. I didn't say that you should sit on your hands and let people kill you. I stated that these kinds of assinations only serve to invoke more violence from the other side which you can then retaliate some more.

The question isn't who started it, the question is who will stop it.

"Morality and ethics are based on a basic goal of enabling and furthering life." Is that a fact, an assumption or an opinion? Whose lives are saved by the death of Yassin?

I assumed that your view was the non-violent way of solving this problem which is my father's view. I was not aware that yours was different. Ofcourse, there might be differences in the tiny print of both your views but it still boils down to the fact that, tit for tat is not the way forward. If you have a different road map to those that advocate the same end as you do, it's not clear from your post. Please, remain gently amused, I would hate for you to become hysterically amused.

Again, I dont see why your being a pilot is relevant in this case. You've been shot at by the enemy? And? I'm glad you survived but thats about it. It may give you a better perspective on ground but it clearly does not mean that your opinion on how the problem should be resolved is better than mine or anyone of us who haven't thankfully been shot at by terrorists.
Wake up and smell the nescafe is a phrase, Mr Lyon. It should not be taken as literally as u have taken it. It does not necessarily mean you are sleepy. I am simply saying that thinking this problem can be resolved in the way you are advocating is unrealistic. That's my opinion. It's not about grasping anything in your post. Whatever I did not grasp I clearly felt was not worth grasping. Your ability to fly planes and obviously very well since u escaped the gun shots has no relevance in this matter.

Rich Lyon : "Really? That is very sad. Would you characterise that as an emotional response, or one that you feel you have fully thought through? Why not read up on the meaning of the word "retaliate" and reflect on the difference between that and the meaning of "justice"? Do you feel a society that "returns evil for evil" is something you want your children to be part of?"

Sandra: Oh bring out the violins! Ofcourse I don't want my children to live in a world that returns evil for evil. I don't want to live in such a world but I do and I don't want to die:) Not yet. An emotional response? If I was one of those sensitive chics I might think you are patronising me the way men often do to women when they try to say anything. At times like that, I like to think it says more about the man than the woman, so it never bothers me.

I don't need to check up the word retaliate. I am aware of what it means. Plus, you need to stop listening to those violins. Justice, you say? Incase you dont know, justice in matters such as these is never clear cut. It has no set boundaries. Do I think it's justice that the man who orchestrated several murders has been blown apart along with his wheel chair? Absofreakinglutely! Would it have been better to arrest him and take him through the "right" channels? I don't know. It certainly would have pleased a lot from your school of thought. It may well have been justice too. I think it's justice he was killed.
The Israeli's are defending themselves. Self Defence is part of the Law. If you want to throw in Justice you need to specify. Legal Justice or Moral Justice? The Israeli's have grounds on both forms.

I am not in the business of blaming the more powerful person, business or country. Like I said, the issue of who owns the Land is not sold on me. It's all history we have to go on. Whichever way we think, neither of us was alive then so I can't be accused of believing what the "powerful" ones have written in history. Am I supposed to assume that because you believe otherwise, your view is more authentic? Were you there? No.

I do not want you to tell any of the women anything. These women are the innocent victims of this war. The men, women and children trying to go about their lives are the innocent victims of this war. 60% of Israeli's supported the killing. 80% of Israeli's knew they would suffer further attacks. The woman who may lose her children because yassin was killed, may have lost them anyway because the Palestininas were not going to stop attacking israel. yassin or no yassin.

The greatest source of disbelief for me is how naive you are. What are you suggesting? That because the more they are attacked, the more of them we get, they should not be attacked at all? Goodness gracious! What were you? A war pilot? I should hope if thats what you were, with such strongly held beliefs you must have tendered your resignation by now. There are always consequences for almost everything we do in life. The balance the Israeli's must strike is whether they are willing to live in constant fear and do nothing, or whether they can defend themselves and try and kill as many of these terrorists as they can, still living in constant fear but atleast letting the terrorists know, that they are not going to sit by and be killed. I don't know that you or I who wake up in relative peace each day are in any position to tell them how to strike that balance.

May I point out that you may have been brainwashed yourself if you think all these terrorists want to die. LOL. You notice that they send the illiterates. The ones who are fairly educated are always the leaders. If Osama wanted to die he would have flown the plane himself. He would not be running from cave to cave. If Yassin wanted to die he would never have allowed himself to be imprisoned by the Israeli's all those years ago. He would have taken his own life than be at the mercy of the Zionists. it's a shame some of you in this world can easily be decieved. They caught Sadaam and he was a wimp. Who woulda thunk it? They force these people to kill themselves. They pick the fools amongst them. They DONT want to die Mr Lyon. Nobody wants to die. So, please dont be misled.

Talk of failure to grasp aspects of ones post. I never boasted of public support. I boasted of the arsenal of weapons the Israeli's have in comparison to the Palestinians. Or the Americans in comparison to the Palestinians. The issue of public support never crossed my mind. What war has ever had public support. If we were waiting for public support Hitler, Mussolini, etc would have ruled far longer than they did.

Well, Rich, if you are not suggesting a diplomatic resolution to the problem. What on earth are you suggesting? In two posts you are yet to say. You simply go on this self righteous march. What is it you are suggesting?

Oh? Your problem is the assasination? You would have preferred for him to be sentenced to death in a Court of Law? Again, I am shocked at the extent of your naivety. Just picture yassin being caught and jailed while he awaits trial. Or Osama? Just imagine the Islamic fundamentalists at that point? It would be a circus. Just imagine the trial. These sorts of people would use the trial as adverts. Look, its a no win situation. Kill them, they will be made out as martyrs. Jail them and carry out a circus of a trial they will be made out as living prophets.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this and at the end of it all I come to find that it did take me only 4 paragraphs to find that your opinion is 90% similar to that of my father.

Sandra: thank you for another thought provoking response.

I assumed that your view was the non-violent way of solving this problem which is my father's view. You believe there is only one non-violent way of solving this problem? I can think of about 15. I'm intrigued as to whether print that contains references to domination of the WTO, economic protectionism, cultural hegemony, oil based geopolitics, and the industrial-military society amongst others can properly be considered "tiny". But on the bright side, your dad is beginning to sound like a great guy.

Again, I dont see why your being a pilot is relevant in this case. And, again, it's not. My direct experience of terrorism as evidence that this is more than a theoretical discussion for me, for which being a pilot happened to be the conduit, is. Shall we move on?

If I was one of those sensitive chics I might think you are patronising me the way men often do to women Well, thank goodness, then, that you are not. Having the totality of my thoughts rendered down to the behaviour of an oversimplified stereotype twice in one thread would probably have unmanned me.

Do I think it's justice that the man who orchestrated several murders has been blown apart along with his wheel chair? Absofreakinglutely! Two people who were with him at the time were also killed. Was that justice? Children in a housing complex that was blown up last year by the Israelis were killed. Was that justice? Some people who were killed in a car a few months ago were ... get this ... the wrong people. Right car, but wrong people in it. Was that justice?

That because the more they are attacked, the more of them we get, they should not be attacked at all? What were you? A war pilot? Conventional warfare achieves its objectives by one side inflicting sufficient damage on the other such that the other either runs out of resource or resolve. In conventional warfare, the more you attack, the greater your chance of prevailing. In this unconventional war, our side can run out of both resource and resolve (there are only so many World Trade centers and national power grid nodes, and so much public stomach for a fight). The other side can run out of neither resource (doesn't need much) nor resolve (they go to heaven). The more you attack, the lower your chance of prevailing. This is the essence of the "asymmetric war". I'm happy for others to judge our relative naivity.

The balance the Israeli's must strike is whether they are willing to live in constant fear and do nothing, or whether they can defend themselves and try and kill as many of these terrorists as they can You certainly enjoy your simplifications. Other choices Israeli's have include (amongst others): handing back the land they annexed to the folks that used to be in the majority; stop building illegal fences; stop incurring world condemnation of their lawless behaviour; and complying with the rulings of the United Nations.

May I point out that you may have been brainwashed yourself if you think all these terrorists want to die. Since it took only 7 to destroy the World trade centers, in what way do you think it matters whether some, most or all of the terrorists want to die?

The issue of public support never crossed my mind. Quite.

What war has ever had public support. Eh? (You do live in a Democracy, don't you?)

it did take me only 4 paragraphs to find that your opinion is 90% similar to that of my father. It takes a bigot no paragraphs to find out a black man is 90% similar to a stupid person. That is invariably a measure of the bigot.

We disagree, but I enjoyed the discovery of the fact. Thank you.

"It takes a bigot no paragraphs to find out a black man is 90% similar to a stupid person. That is invariably a measure of the bigot."

Indeed! That's why the bigot is a bigot and I am Sandra Smallson. Atleast if he/she took 4 paras, but ZERO?..Shame!

Can't respond to some of your responses:) We would just continue going round in circles. We do disagree and I too have enjoyed the discovery of that fact. Thank you? It's been a pleasure.

So, let me get this straight (in between an email to my MP to close the border to amost all 'murricans, unless they are willing to be strip-searched and are carry nothing but large amounts of cash, got to keep the global sociopaths in their own asylum).

It isn't his track record which you object to, but that Col. Kurtz's methods have become unsound?

I'm sure Archbishop Romero will say a prayer for you Al.

Once again, I have the uncomfortable task of admitting (in public, no less) that I've:

1) altered my perceptions
2) altered my opinions
3) changed sides in a debate
4) been intellectually smacked down by someone of greater intelligence
5) made to feel like an ass
6) LEARNED SOMETHING

I know this admission is a rare event in cyberspace, but I like to think I'm smart enough to know when I'm wrong -- or when it's time to remain silent and listen to someone else. I've been reading this didactic for the last few days and would like to thank those who participated, with SPECIAL THANKS TO RICH LYON.

(Note to Sandra: while I admire your fiestyness, you do realize that reading your writing in this one thread is equivalent to reading Gibbons' entire History of the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire? It's an admirable trait -- if you're getting paid by the word. I can't overstate by belief in the inherent beauty of Brevity.)

Thank you to Rich Lyon, Al Barger, Sandra Smallson and Shark who practiced his failed stand up comic routine. Do you ever have a point?

Lomu, I'll answer that after you reach your two drink minimum.

You lead a sad life Shark. There is an underlying insecurity in someone who tries too hard to be witty. You are hiding something terrible. I have an idea of what your trauma is.

I will not say it because I do not want to get into the syndrome on this site. Cliques insulting one person or one person insulting another person continuously. I wish you could all step outside and see how you all come across.

I wish you could all step outside and see how you all come across.

Well, let's step outside you punk ass bitch, it will give me an apportunity to remote target your position.

What? too lazy to drag your ass out to the parking lot? I thought so.

You lead a sad life Shark. There is an underlying insecurity in someone who tries too hard to be witty. You are hiding something terrible. I have an idea of what your trauma is.

True, but I just LOVE the attention you give me!

Now I'm wondering: Can you also prescribe drugs? Or is the couch trip the best you can do?

Lomu: ...Cliques insulting one person or one person insulting another person continuously.

Followed by an insult from Lohu?

I might not be funny, but at least I understand the meaning of IRONY.