Blood on YOUR Hands

Written by mike larkin
Published March 14, 2004

Those who instigated the Iraq war have the blood of Madrid on their hands.

Before the war, opponents predicted that the invasion would unleash a new round of Islamist terror and that invading would put innocent people--in Europe, America, etc.--at mortal risk.

The invasion unleashed a new round of Islamist terror and put innocent people--in Europe, America, etc.--at mortal risk.

It's time for people who yak on in right wing blog fashion about the war on terror to take some personal responsibility for the consequences of their political positions.

It's true that the only people directly responsible for the Madrid bombings are the bombers themselves. Duh. But if I indulge in a reckless action, like the Iraq war, that any idiot could have foreseen WOULD PUT INNOCENT PEOPLE AT RISK, PEOPLE WHO IN THIS CASE WERE OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSED TO THE WAR, then, goddamit, I've got some explaining to do.

By analogy, imagine if the police fought a neighborhood gang by recklessly exposing innocent residents to retribution by that gang--and, in the process, made the gang stronger. That is what has happened here.

In this case, the Andrew Sullivans and their ilk are cranking up their "Anyone Who Points Out the Obvious is Blaming America for 3-11" routine. Then, out of the other side of their mouths, they are blaming antiwars for 3-11.

Even more egregious is their argument that the Spanish people behaved in a cowardly fashion by voting out the ruling party.

Those who make these accusations can go fuck themselves.

Keep reading for information and comments on this article, and add some feedback of your own!
Blood on YOUR Hands
Published: March 14, 2004
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Section: Politics
Writer: mike larkin
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Comments

#1 — March 14, 2004 @ 23:18PM — Sean

the Spanish are cowards for rolling over in the face of terror, and you are leading the cheering section. you are a coward. they say that in prison, you can avoid trouble by either killing someone right away or becoming someone's bitch. i see that you have made your choice clear. just remember that you are still free due to the exertions of better men than you.

#2 — March 14, 2004 @ 23:28PM — kemikalsupafreek

Using your "logic" (loosely applied, of course), the policy of ignoring or appeasing terrorist threats, or maybe even prosecuting terrorists to the fullest extent of the law, would have prevented such a tragedy (as if Al-Qaeda really gives a fuck what we do or don't do).

Funny, that seems to mimic our exact policy prior to 9/11/2001. So was that more reckless or less reckless than taking down a deranged psychopath like Hussein? If we went by straight body count, it seems you lose.

#3 — March 14, 2004 @ 23:48PM — Allan

Allahu Akbar!

#4 — March 14, 2004 @ 23:49PM — mike

Well, that's a nice start from the Right Wingnut Brigade. Bring it on!

#5 — March 14, 2004 @ 23:56PM — zipity

yeah, and that bitch deserved getting beat up by her husband anyway...

#6 — March 14, 2004 @ 23:56PM — John in Tokyo

The Iraq war would "unleash" a wave of terrorism??

I suppose that's true if you believe that there would have been no more terrorist attacks after 9/11 (and Bali and all the other attacks that have happened in the last 3 years).

Why are the terrorists so mad about Iraq when there was supposedly no connection between the two?

Did you notice that the group claiming responsibility mentioned Afghanistan too?

Weird, huh. It's almost like they're not just angry about Iraq or something crazy like that. It's like they don't like any action we take against rogue states. Must be some misunderstanding.

#7 — March 14, 2004 @ 23:58PM — zipity

and if the British had just left Hitler alone, they wouldn't have had any problems with that whole World War II thingy...

#8 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:00AM — Chuck D [URL]

Lets be honest here. Ever since dem spainards slaughtered the moors and forced the Moslems and Jews to convert to the Christianity, they've had this coming. ObL hadn't forgotten.
That's Moslem land them Spainards are sitting on and by golly, it WILL be liberated.

#9 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:02AM — mike

They're mad about Iraq because they know that popular opposition to the war in the Arab world made our invasion a great recruiting tool. As bin laden said, Saddam is the "socialist infidel," and he was grateful to the U.S. for wanting to get rid of him.

#10 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:15AM — Al Barger [URL]

Typical childish left wing nonsense. Everything is mean old Daddy Bush's fault. Al Qaeda terrorists blow up a bunch of people in Spain? Damn that President Bush!!! You're just silly.

But the stuff he really IS responsible for coming out of the Iraq war, you probably won't acknowledge, notably the disarming of Libya proceeding rapidly. Damn that Bush!!!

#11 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:18AM — Ronin

Shuttup and go make Allah a sandwitch.

#12 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:20AM — mike

Juan Cole, an Arabist at the University of Michigan (for all you right wingnuts, an "Arabist" is someone who knows something about the Arab world).

"Will the Socialists withdraw the Spanish contingent from Iraq? This is a demonstration that the Iraq war was not part of any war on terror. Imagine how much better off Spain would have been to put the resources it put into Iraq into tracking terrorists and increasing cooperation with Morocco."

#13 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:23AM — Joshua Scholar

Allah tells it like it is.

"You [Spain] are Allah's bitch now. Go make Allah a sandwich, bitch."

By the way September is the 9th month of the year not the 3rd. You shouldn't post just after taking your Melaril, dude.

#14 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:24AM — RJ Elliott [URL]

The Spanish people showed their cowardice today. I'm sorry, but nothing else explains their last-minute switch to the Socialists.

The terrorists can claim a major victory. They proved they can influence elections in the West by killing innocents. And those who oppose their brand of terror will lose power.

This action by the Spanish people will only embolden the terrorists. Wanna bet they try to attack the US sometime after Labor Day, in the hopes of a Kerry win in November?

#15 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:26AM — mike

3-11 is a reference to the Madrid bombings, right wingnut robot #4256896.

Report back to base for more indoctrination,please.

#16 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:27AM — Joshua Scholar

You know a lot of the "right wing wingnuts" know something about the Arab world too.

Look up Bernard Lewis sometime. He's not actually guilty of any of the stuff that Edward Said made a career out of accusing him of.

I read Arab newspapers (when my stomach can take it)...

#17 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:30AM — mike

The racism on this thread proves my point.

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Thanks, right wingnuts!

#18 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:35AM — Joshua Scholar

Funny, " right wingnut robot #4256896." voted for Nader in the last two elections, and for Jessie jackson in the primaries before that...

I know an enemy when I see one, however and I know that bullshit attempts to surrender to Islamofacism will just insure that my granchildren live in a ruined country in constant fear.

But I guess that I'm supposed to fear captialism or Republicans or Christianity or something more than facists with bombs. You shallow cowards make me ill.

#19 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:39AM — mike

Well, then, here's an antiwar conservative (and U.S. military veteran) about the ruinous financial implications of our splendid little war:

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_mar14.html

#20 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:40AM — Joshua Scholar

"The racism on this thread proves my point."

Aparently you think that screaming "racism" every time you can't support your point of view will convince people that there must be some disgusting racism somewhere in the thread and stop reading it.

THat's become a common maneuver among the dishonest and intellectually deficient. Yech!

#21 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:46AM — Joshua Scholar

9/11 crashed the stock market and lost me (and plenty of other people) their jobs.

You know 3 recent polls show that 80% of Palestinian children dream of growing up to be mayrters who's goal is to kill as many Jews as possible. It's a dream of genocide that drive the Islamofacists.

When they get around blowing up dirty bombs or biologicals or whatever other fantasy of genocide they manage to unleash on American infidels - do you think our economy will thrive then?

You think you can afford terrorism, Mike?

#22 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:48AM — Joshua Scholar

If your memory goes back as far as two years ago, you'll remember that Al Qu'eda has publicly stated that one of their goals is to kill 4 million Americans.

#23 — March 15, 2004 @ 00:55AM — mike

Yes, I hate terrorism. Duh! By generating recruits for jihad, the Iraq war, as 3-11 shows, has made Islamists infinitely more powerful. So it's people like you who are aiding and abetting terrorists with your insane and ignorant policies.

#24 — March 15, 2004 @ 01:03AM — RJ Elliott [URL]

Mike:

I know you feel deep empathy for the terrorists. I realize that you are an infinitely more sensitive and caring man that I am.

However, I wonder if you realize that, despite your beliefs, the terrorists will view your radioactive corpse as just another vile infidel who needed to be killed.

Your attempts at appeasement will not save you.

If we retreat, as you wish, you will suffer the same horrid fate as the rest of us.

Thankfully, not everyone agrees with you.

#25 — March 15, 2004 @ 01:05AM — Joshua Scholar

Mike, go actually read the Arab newspapers, find out what they teach in Syrian, Iranian, and Saudi schools. Find out what they preach in the Mosques in those countries (and check out Egypt and Lebanon). Find out what their politicians have been saying in their speeches for the last 50 years. Check out what the polling data from these countries tell you about what the populations believe and want...

Then you'll realize that you knew nothing. These countries are scarier than Germany in the 30s and you can't pretend these enemies away anymore than England could have pretended away the Nazis.

Perhaps your problem is that the first president to notice the problem is George W. Bush. Well he had to notice it didn't he. Hard to ignore 9/11.

There's a world full of propaganda competing for your attention. After all despots have nothing better to do than to spend all of their efforts filling the world with propaganda to stablize their power... But you have to realize that just because something was mentioned in the American media doesn't make it false and just because it got shoveled into Reuters doesn't make it true.

If you got hours and days and weeks to spend on this, you'll be a hawk before you know it. Our enemies aren't sane, but they are committed and you can't wish them away anymore than you can change the hatred that Saudi funded Madrassas teach by calling everyone in the west a racist.

#26 — March 15, 2004 @ 01:08AM — Al Barger [URL]

You merely PRESUME that the war in Iraq generated more recruits for terrorism. I see no evidence of that. They had plenty of recruits and were attacking us before. Best evidence is that we're killing the bastards quicker than they can replace them.

That doesn't mean there aren't any terrorist. It just means we're working on thinning the herd.

It's not that you don't hate terrorism, Mike, it's just that you seem more concerned with having excuses to denounce Bush than in stopping terrorism.

#27 — March 15, 2004 @ 01:13AM — Joshua Scholar

By the way what do you think Kerry will do about Iran (one of those wonderful terrorist supporting countries) will do about those nukes they'll have any day. Oh remember former president Rafsanjani promising (when he was still president) the moment Iran has nukes they'll nuke Israel. Gotta love 'em.

Oh and are you happy or sad that our adventure in Iraq convinced Kaddaffi to turn states evidence on the vast nuke development network that Pakistan and companies around the world are using to arm our enemies?

Or better that we didn't know about that and just wait for the bombs?

#28 — March 15, 2004 @ 01:51AM — RadarRider [URL]

The fallacy behind this argument is the assumption that not taking the war (and it is a war, make no mistake) to the terrorists and their supporters would have kept everyone safe. They want us all dead or subjugated. Not fighting them, but rather trying to appease them, is doomed to fail because the *will not* be appeased. Nothing we can do will satisfy them short of dying, surrendering to them, or converting en masse to their extreme form of Islam. Not taking the war to them would not have prevented further attacks.

Note that I most emphatically do *not* include all Muslims in the above characterization. Only those by whose words and deeds have shown themselves to be enemies of freedom. Cliche? Perhaps. But most cliches exist because they're true.

#29 — March 15, 2004 @ 03:59AM — Sonetka

Mike -

Back when I was a college student, I spent a lot of time in Russia. There were several fairly spectacular (so to speak) terrorist bombs set off during the time I was there. A few apartment buildings went down, with quite a few casualties. One of the underpasses I used to go through five times a day was bombed one week after I left the country.

As an American, I had no responsibility for Russian foreign policy. I didn't agree with it, didn't endorse it, deplored their violence, talked rather like you do now. And it didn't matter a bit. If my plans had been a bit different and I had been transformed into a red smear on the wall, it would have meant nothing to the bombers except another enemy gone, and proportionally a little more terror. I'm planning on going back there in a few months. If the day comes that I encounter a bomb, I won't be myself anymore. I'll be The Enemy. Even if my views were the duplicate of yours, which they aren't now, it will mean absolutely nothing to the bombers. I am not them, and am therefore expendable. And so, in their minds, are you.

These people are not awash in sweet platitudes of self-esteem. They do not celebrate and sing the lovely diversity of the world. Cast your mind back to what you learned about the Middle Ages - the dreadful and impressive certainty that one was right, the other was wrong, and you were willing to die for that. Think of the bombers as Crusaders. Do they look a touch less victimized now? Perhaps a bit more responsible for their own actions? Because no matter what social forces are at work, they made those bombs, they deposited them in full knowledge that innocent people would die, they detonated the things. They were the ones with instruments in their hands, and they chose to kill. To treat as being somehow helpless dragged along in the tide of history is to deny that they are as human and responsible as the rest of us - inherently inferior - and I'm sure you don't think that.

#30 — March 15, 2004 @ 06:20AM — Shaefer

I love it! I love it!
"I don't know a goddamn thing! I can't properly argue my way out of a phonebooth! I don't really have the brains to form a defense for my opinions, so I'll just call anyone who doesn't think like me a racist! That's what all the other hipster libs that I mimic are doing these days! It's, like, the new "cool" way to argue!"

#31 — March 15, 2004 @ 08:14AM — Debbie

"Yes, I hate terrorism. Duh! By generating recruits for jihad, the Iraq war, as 3-11 shows, has made Islamists infinitely more powerful. So it's people like you who are aiding and abetting terrorists with your insane and ignorant policies."

Where have you been living for the last 15 years? They have been attacking us for at least that long.... The Iraq war started last year, what about the 14 years before that? It's really pathetic to make excuses for that type of behavior.

#32 — March 15, 2004 @ 08:41AM — Eric Olsen

mike, surely you see the speciousness of the logic that any given terrorist attack was caused by any given action on anyone but the terrorists' part. Surely you see the self-defeating nonsense of trying to ferret out "what the real reason was" for any given attack. The "raison d'etre manifesto" is just a game the killers play in the hope that we will be distracted from the enormity of their hatred and opposition to the entire Western/democratic way of life. They laugh at us when we take their statements seriously because the only statement that means anything is that they want all of us dead and our civilization destroyed. They don't give a fuck about Iraq, they don't give a fuck about Afghanistan or anything else other than causing maximum death and destruction. Our ONLY option is to aggressively seek them out and destroy them and their networks - nothing else matters.

And indignation will not change the fact that Spain voted out of fear - how would you characterize a radical change in voting patterns threee days after a bomb attack? Were they bombed to their senses? Did the death of 200 civilians yield sudden clarity? It's called "panic" and the stink can be smelled from here.

#33 — March 15, 2004 @ 10:03AM — mike

This ahistorical airy rhetoric has been rejected, not only by the Spainish people, but by most of the world. It has been rejected because the policy it undergirds has failed.

The U.S. approach is like the Israeli approach; it may deal with the individual group or individual causing terrorism, but because it doesn't address greivances of the people the terrorists hide among, it makes the problem worse. The U.S. approach actually causes more terrorism.

Hopefully, 3-11 is a turning point that will lead to the isolation and disarming of the two greatest threats (in order) to the world: Al-Queda and the U.S. military.

#34 — March 15, 2004 @ 10:24AM — Joshua Scholar

The underlying grievence, you creten, is the existance of people who aren't fundimentalist Salafi/Sunni Muslims and who aren't imprisoned by Sharia law.

As I said, you know nothing. Go learn.

#35 — March 15, 2004 @ 10:26AM — Eric Olsen

Yes, certainly if the U.S. military ceased to exist tomorrow the world would be a better place and the joyous spring of peace would bloom the world over because it is only the US military that is causing despots the world over to oppress their people, causing delusional monomaniacs to attack and subjugate any they feel are vulnerable, causing death to be worshiped as preferable to life, causing religious fanatics to attempt to convert the world or bomb it out of existence.

Yes, dismantle the warmongering US military and and the boot will be removed from the necks of the oppressed everywhere.

#36 — March 15, 2004 @ 10:36AM — Joshua Scholar

Of course for Iran, the "grievence" is different. For them it's the existance of people who aren't fundimentalist Shiites imprisoned by Sharia, law.

#37 — March 15, 2004 @ 10:44AM — Jeff B.

Eric, you give posting privileges to the strangest people...

Oh well. Takes all kinds, I suppose. Except right now (after that "disarm the US Military" comment) I feel like thwacking this kind upside the head.

#38 — March 15, 2004 @ 10:48AM — Eric Olsen

If by "posting" privileges you mean making comments, anyone and everyone can make comments other than spammers. If you are referring to writing and posting ariticles, then all one has to do is have a blog adn join Blogcritics. We have no political litmus test.

And as you can read, our political range is exceptionally wide.

#39 — March 15, 2004 @ 10:55AM — hibigibi

3 ways out of the current situation:

1) You already are muslim
2) You convert to islam
3) You insist on being an infidel-YOU DIE

#40 — March 15, 2004 @ 11:02AM — LCDR S

Visited Spain five times in the last decade. Loved the country.

Will never go back as long as the terrorist bootlicking Socialists are in power.

It's sad that the Socialists got a majority of cowards to put them into power.

A country that can kill innocent bulls for sport but cowers under the table in the face of a few terrorist maggots and their revolting "religious" beliefs is in a tailspin of decline. We don't need this "ally" anymore.

#41 — March 15, 2004 @ 11:04AM — Ms. Tek [URL]

A country that can kill innocent bulls for sport

In the US, sportsfishing is popular. They do a lot of throwing back.

So is deer hunting. Not so many eat that deer meat.

Bear Huntning.

Actually, hunting and fishing, if you are not going to eat it is cruel.

#42 — March 15, 2004 @ 11:06AM — mike

Let's see: the people of Spain kicked out the government that failed to protect them from terrorism, and they're cowards.

Keep it up, right wingnuts. You're just digging yourselves in deeper.

#43 — March 15, 2004 @ 11:12AM — Joshua Scholar

Mike is a one note kazoo.

We're not even right wingers.

Idiot.

Ok, I'm leaving.

#44 — March 15, 2004 @ 11:37AM — Davey Jewstein

No government can protect it's people from terrorism. That's why it works. Anyone could put a bomb on a NYC subway at any time. One day this will happen and "Mike" will still be an idiot.

I am not "right-wing".

Mike, honestly you seem like the indoctrinated robot.

#45 — March 15, 2004 @ 12:06PM — NC

Hey, did you know that 9/11 never would have happened if we had elected Ralph Nader president? Little known fact.

#46 — March 15, 2004 @ 12:09PM — IB Bill [URL]

Mike Larkin:

You seem to be making a "reasonably foreseeability" argument. That's taking U.S. tort law (specifically negligence) and applying that law in an international context (specifically the conduct of war).

While certainly we need to take into account the reactions of folks we are fighting with, your argument really boils down to: We shouldn't have taken out a haven for terrorists in Iraq because the bad guys will go after us and our allows.

Well, the bad guys in this case don't need a reason to fight back. They're on the offense in this war. The war on terror is a counter-offensive -- but essentially it's a defensive war.

So blood on our hands? Not legally, not morally, not ethically. The blood is on their hands for starting the war in the first place ... all of it.

The only way the blood is on our hands is if you believe the terrorists didn't start it -- that we did. Which is a different argument.

#47 — March 15, 2004 @ 12:57PM — mike

If another 9/11 or mini-9/11 or even micro-9/11 (e.g., the shooting down of a commercial airline by terrorists) occurs in this country, martial law will be declared, the writ of habeus corpus will be suspened, and the country will have essentially moved to a modified form of military dictatorship.

And I predict that people like Eric Olsen, Instapundit, and Andrew Sullivan will heartily endorse it--after the usual hand-wringing about how they feel slightly uneasy, and they certainly hope abuses aren't too excessive, etc.

Mark my words.

#48 — March 15, 2004 @ 13:01PM — URN

You're an idiot.

#49 — March 15, 2004 @ 13:09PM — Joshua Scholar

URN, he certainly is.

#50 — March 15, 2004 @ 13:22PM — mike

I notice you didn't deny it.

#51 — March 15, 2004 @ 13:27PM — Eric Olsen

Okay, I deny it.

#52 — March 15, 2004 @ 13:31PM — NC

I deny it. I'm also endlessly amused to see these newbies trying to reason with the nuttiest nut in the big bowl of nuts known as Blogcritics. That's like being the fattest member of the Fat Boys: You have to really work at it to reach that level of grotesqueness.

I did notice that Barger took the bait and chimed in with a couple of comments here. Shame on you, Al, howling into the void like that.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that if Bush and Hitler arm-wrestled, it would be a tie. Thank you.

#53 — March 15, 2004 @ 13:33PM — mike

Here's how it may go: If there's another terrorist attack in this country before the election, and it looks like voters are going to pull a Spain and (rightly) blame the ruling party, the Sean Hamitys will declare that since the terrorists wanted John Kerry to win, then canceling the election will be the best way to fight the terrorists.

Mark my words.

#54 — March 15, 2004 @ 14:30PM — Debbie

We would rather mark you as an idiot...

#55 — March 15, 2004 @ 14:39PM — IB Bill [URL]

Martial law? There's no need for that until the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November, 2008, when Dubya's second term expires and to prevent the election of Hillary Clinton.

You know, analogous to what second-termer Ferdinand Marcos did in 1972 (or 73, I forgot). At the end of his second term (they had a two-term limit), Marcos instigated unrest and declared martial law.

#56 — March 15, 2004 @ 14:40PM — IB Bill [URL]

Well, not when the term expires but when the election will be held for Bush's successor.

Must proofread.

#57 — March 15, 2004 @ 20:03PM — Patrick Carroll

I'm afraid that Europe still hasn't got the lesson: you can't appeae terrorists. It didn't work with Hitler, it won't work with the Islamofascists.

In this vote, all the people of Spain have really done is done is to encourage the terorists and make it more likely that both the US and Europe will see more of the same.

I truly am not looking forward to saying "I told you so."

#58 — March 15, 2004 @ 20:49PM — Al Barger [URL]

Oh for crying in a bucket Mike, that comment #53 is utter hysterical nonsense. You're completely pulling that out of the blue. On what basis do get the idea that ANYBODY would even propose such foolishness as canceling elections.

PS First whining bad loser that responds to this with something about Florida gets a beat down. As Patrick Fitzwilliam and William Fitzpatrick say, "Save it."

#59 — March 15, 2004 @ 22:09PM — Doug [URL]

Allahu Akbar!

#60 — March 15, 2004 @ 22:36PM — mike

Who said it, Al? Tommy Franks said it



#61 — March 15, 2004 @ 23:04PM — Shark

Somebody please visit my entries. Please? Purty please?

I'm a nut, I'm a robot, I'm no wing, and my hyperbole is MUCH MORE ENTERTAINING.

Plus: free hot dogs and Doctor Peppers for the first ten visitors!

Thanks --- Shark's Management

#62 — March 16, 2004 @ 00:01AM — kemikalsupafreek

I'm terribly disappointed you did not respond to my eloquent comment (#2), although perhaps your comment (#4) was an attempt. Pitiful one, if so.

I made such an excellent point, perhaps you simply agreed with me. Would have been polite for you to acknowledge such a brilliant observation, though.

#63 — March 16, 2004 @ 01:28AM — Joshua Scholar

"I notice you didn't deny it."

Actually we did deny it. That was implied in being so impressed with the stupidity of your assertion that we just called you an idiot and left it at that.

#64 — March 16, 2004 @ 01:37AM — David

Dumbest. Thread. Ever.

#65 — March 16, 2004 @ 08:52AM — Eric Olsen

I find that hard to believe

#66 — March 16, 2004 @ 08:54AM — Mark Saleski [URL]

yea, some of the hiphop threads had DumbHallOfFame commentary (ja rule, maybe?)

#67 — March 16, 2004 @ 09:09AM — Eric Olsen

The magical Pirates of the Caribbean thread is now almost 1000 comments strong and every one of them has said essentially the same thing. At least they are inoffensive and haven't contained threats of bodily harm.

#68 — March 16, 2004 @ 09:27AM — Shark

I'm currently working on a post called,

"The Passion Pirates of the Caribbean Half-Time Show Vote for the Best Guitarist---EVER: Mel Gibson!"

Leaderboard --- here I come!

#69 — March 16, 2004 @ 09:29AM — Craig Lyndall [URL]

Shark that is probably one of the funniest things I have ever read here.

#70 — March 16, 2004 @ 09:51AM — Eric Olsen

Classic, but you have to work 50 Cent in there somewhere.

#71 — March 16, 2004 @ 10:33AM — Dawn Olsen

yo, dat's right bitches, 50-cents da shizzznit, aight!

piece out

#72 — March 16, 2004 @ 10:34AM — JR

"The Passion Pirates of the Caribbean Half-Time Show Vote for the Best Guitarist---EVER: Mel Gibson!"

Yeah, that would be a good post, but WHERE IS SLASH!?!?

#73 — March 16, 2004 @ 10:38AM — Craig Lyndall [URL]

No way Dawn. 50 is shifty, and Ja ain't no fool. or something...

Yeah the rap wars were hilarious.

#74 — March 16, 2004 @ 10:54AM — Joe [URL]

Did anyone bother to check out mike's link to the Tommy Franks quote? Or should I say mike's link to Juan Cole paraphrasing Newsmax.com reporting on an article in Cigar Afficianado magazine. I wish I had the talent to make this kind of stuff up. The internet is the coolest thing EVER!

#75 — March 16, 2004 @ 10:57AM — mike

Head down to the library and read Cigar A magazine yourself. My links are accurate summaries.

#76 — March 16, 2004 @ 10:59AM — Eric Olsen

Six degrees of Tommy Franks

#77 — March 16, 2004 @ 11:12AM — Joe [URL]

First off, I only read Cigar Afficianado for the pictures, and second, I'm not taking the time just to find out the article is actually based on an interview with Franks' driver. Can't you just quote me some Fisk or Pilger? I prefer unbiased reporting.

#78 — March 16, 2004 @ 11:18AM — Eric Olsen

People, if it isn't in EvilAmerica-Corporations-Bush.net, it doesn't exist.

#79 — March 16, 2004 @ 11:46AM — mike

ha ha ha. i'm just waiting for the suspension of the writ of habeus corpus--the essence of martial law--followed by Eric Olsen's "Oh, gosh, how unfortunate, but I reluctantly conclude it's the right thing to do under the circumstances; painful, painful, the choices we have to make in these dark times; I think I'll go do even more hand-wringing.....gosh, gosh, oh dear...."

#80 — March 16, 2004 @ 11:55AM — Eric Olsen

Re the war on terror, I unashamedly wring my hands over certain elements of the Patriot Act, over every allied death, and every civilian death of whatever nationality. Other than that, I'm cool.

#81 — March 16, 2004 @ 12:47PM — Tom Adleman

There is a Jimmy Buffett song with a line, "Don't try to describe the ocean if you've never seen it." I can not think of a more apt application than to your opinions. I can not imagine you have ever been far enough away from your computer to know what an Arab looks like.

I spent a year in Saudi Arabia. The folks you are trying to defend would bend you over the camel saddle in a Islamic second.

Why don't you do something constructive like put up a web site to take donations for the terrorits that lost their lives on 9/11. Your rationale suggests that it is OUR fault they killed OUR citizens. I mean the poor bastards must need some money for killing innocent men, women and children, no?

You, I am quite sure, don't have the balls to do anything but try and create as much controversy as possible for some reason that must be as stupid as your are.

Allah Akbar!

#82 — March 16, 2004 @ 13:17PM — David

From thismodernworld

I don't claim to know much about internal Spanish politics, and I suspect many of the people leaping to conclusions about the Meaning of it All are pretty much in the same boat. For what it's worth, I got an email from a Spanish reader this morning, giving his take on the situation, and it doesn't make the Spanish people look like quite the cowardly appeasers some want to portray them as. I'm reprinting it in full below. (Usual caveat: I don't know the correspondent personally, on the internet know one knows you're a dog, blah blah blah.)



As you will know well, Islamic terrorists blew four commuter trains in Madrid in the morning of March 11th, 2004, three days before general elections. This trains were packed with workers and students going to their jobs and classrooms, and covered the route known as "Corredor del Henares", a collection of working-class suburbs. They killed 201 people (up to today). There were 1,500 wounded. There're still dozens of people in critical or very grave state, and some of them could die. When the bombs exploded, two
of the trains were very near to Atocha central station, one was stopped in El Pozo del Tío Raimundo station (a very combative, traditionally leftist, working-class district) where many people was killed in the platforms, and the last one was very near to Santa Eugenia station, another working-class area. The explosive was a kind of industrial dynamite made in Spain used in mining and widely exported known as Goma-2, trademark Eco. The bombs were hidden in handbags with ten to twelve kilos of Goma-2 each one, and they were triggered using inexpensive cell phones. Given the trains and platforms were packed with people (it was about 7.40 in the morning), they caused an immediate and pavorous carnage. It is said that the terrorists attempted to sweep the Atocha station where the four trains ended their route, going for an 11S-sized massacre (ed. note: 11 September, i.e. 9/11) by killing several thousand people in this main station of Madrid. Only the traditional lack of punctuality in Spanish commuter services avoided this barbarous result.

The behavior of the people was of utter heroism. I must say it, I didn't expect it and I'm very proud of my people now. When the victims in the trains started shouting "neighbours, neighbours, please help us!" to the surrounding buildings, hundreds of every age and sex rushed downstairs to help, even understanding that there were bombs and could be more. Commuter drivers in nearby roads stopped their cars and took the horribly mutilated and burnt woundeds to area hospitals even before the first ambulances arrived. Even some people who were inside the trains stayed to help others instead of fleeing! Please believe me when I tell you that the people of Madrid behave EXCEPTIONALLY and with rare bravery and solidarity in these very hard minutes. I use to be quite cynic, but this defies any cynicism. It was epic, heroic, I don't have words. Those thinking that the Spanish people is being coward should reconsider their opinion in the light of this.



After more than 30 years of ETA terrorism, many people thought at once that this murderers well known to the Spanish people had caused the massacre. But well-informed people immediately noticed it was a classical "Chechen attack", completely different of what ETA has done up to today and essentially identical to the Moscow subway attack several weeks ago. This caused some turmoil, specially when a pro-ETA spokesman made the point. Some minutes later, Interior (Security) Minister Angel Acebes declared openly that the authors were ETA and anyone denying it was a "miserable".



Now let me explain to you this turmoil. ETA is an independentist Basque terrorist group who declares itself "marxist-leninist". The Conservative government of José María Aznar has fought hard to combat it while avoiding any concession to moderate Basque nationalists, saying that the only possible way to manage the issue is "the hard one". Some weeks ago, a member of the Socialist / Nationalist coalition Government in Catalonia met ETA representatives and the Aznar goverment used this to proclaim that Socialist weren't hard enough against ETA since they shared government in Catalonia with a guy that spoke to terrorists. If the authors of the carnage were ETA, Aznar government would have been reinforced in their opinion that against those beasts, only force can solve the problem and the Socialists and their Nationalist friends were too weak to do it.



But if the authors were Islamic, a very different panorama arose. The opposition in Spain against Bush's war in Iraq was very important. I don't know if it reached 90% as it has been stated in this groups, but there surely was a wide majority against a conflict that common Spaniards didn't buy. There were massive demonstrations, with several million people in them, against the involvement of Spain in the war. In despite of this, José María Aznar government went to war with Bush and Blair. Many people went home thinking "this guy is involving us in a madmen's war that we don't want and will provoke bloody consequences". If Islamics blew the trains, it was a strong confirmation of this position, something that could only focus anger against Aznar's Government.



So, many people began to ask "who did it?", "not all of us are here, we lack 200" and "we want the truth before voting" already in the mammoth antiterrorist demonstrations on Friday. The Government stuck to the ETA hypothesis trying to avoid this probable electoral damage. They must have thought that using their massive media control they could cover it up for four days, until election's aftermath. Government-controlled public and private televisions, radios and newspapers broadcasted once and again "it was ETA", but each minute less people was buying it. It has been said that workers of some of this media were near to revolt because of the pressures to avoid the Islamic hypothesis (today, EFE -Spanish state press agency- workers' unions have asked for the immediate resignation of their boss because of this). But then, media not controlled by the Government started broadcasting the Islamic hypothesis and how the controlled media were manipulating the whole issue. In a matter of hours, Spain was bipolarized, with thousands seeking information in Internet and sending it via SMS to their friends. IMHO, the Government went mad and commited suicide in this moment. They agreed there were "Islamic clues" but said once and again it was ETA although the mass crime was claimed three times by Al-Qaeda and there were several tapes (two or three, still unknown) with Islamic messages claiming "Operation Trains of Death" in Madrid and threatening "Smoke of Death" in Italy and "Winds of Death" in the USA. Millions began to think they were being lied, with the blood of 200 Spaniards still warm. SMS messages with the truth spreaded very quickly (I received about 50 from about 40 different sources). In workers' districts through the country, people began to protest beating pans in the windows and shouting "they make wars, we suffer them", "we are not puppets" and "Spain is not to be lied". Others demonstrated before Aznar's party offices in different cities singing "Liars, liars!" and "Culprits, culprits!". In Madrid, these demonstrations united over 3,000 people, probably many more according to the images seen on TV. When police started asking for ID's, they showed their ID cards to the international TV cameras deployed there shouting "Urdaci, look at my face!" (Urdaci is the information director in the channel 1 of Spanish public television, massively involved in the coverup). Sort of a lightweight civil revolt, as you can see. Nothing serious, but obviously damaging to the ruling party. As a last error, Mariano Rajoy (Government's party candidate, since Aznar was retiring) spoke on TV blaming these demos as "antidemocratic and illegal". For a Government widely perceived as too authoritary and non-negotiating, this sealed their fate.



And Sunday came, and it was election's day. I didn't see fear. I saw mourning. A strange feeling, believe me. Spaniards use to be very funny. People is continously laughing and making jokes about everything, specially the younger. Watching all that people lining up to vote without a laugh nor a smile was impressive. And there was something more in truckloads of eyes. Anger. Deep anger. No incidents.



Aznar-Rajoy's party lost about one million votes. Not much, it's true, given the situation. But three million voters arose essentially from disenchanted abstentionists to nail them. And almost all of these voters supported the Socialist Party, the main opposition group that had spoken openly against the Iraq war and was also denouncing the media manipulation. This inverted completely the results, where Rajoy had started as favorite. José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, not Mariano Rajoy, will be the next president of Spain.



What will happen now? First, don't get confused. Although named "Spanish Socialist Workers' Party", the Socialist Party is a center-left organization that during their past Government period (1982-1996) brought Spain in NATO and faced several general strikes because of their pro-Capitalist economic policy. So "centrist" was their policy, that a truly Socialist leftwing party called Izquierda Unida could appear around the Communist Party (libertarian eurocommunists, not the totalitary ones) and is continuously supported by hundreds of thousands of disenchanted ex-Socialists. Even more, Rodríguez Zapatero is a very moderate politician usually perceived as too soft as opposer to the Government.

But since he leaded the majoritary opposition group, angry voters perceived him as the best option to oust Aznar and Rajoy.



In despite of this, the Socialist Party knows that these three million additional voters who have taken them to the Government, plus their traditional eight million voters, have voted saying "hey, José Luis, disengage us from that mad Bush (Bush is widely perceived in Europe as an illiterate crazy cowboy) and his terrorism-bearing war, take us again to our natural place in Europe, don't tell us lies and please don't screw it up or you'll pay it in the next elections". If they don't comply, people is going to reclaim their votes. Not a comfortable position, I'm afraid. This isn't a "free-handed, do what you want" Government. They have won with a clear popular pressure and expectative. The first of them, Spanish occupation troops out of Iraq before July 1st, period.



Has Al-Qaeda voted in these elections? Yes, obviously yes. How could I, a voter, stop thinking in my killed and maimed people, young students, hard-working fathers and mothers, pretty college girls, fragile elders and even babies? Hey, they're my people. As a citizen, I have an obligation to them. But let me tell you that I honestly think that we voted not guided by fear, but guided by anger. In the critical hours after the attack, Aznar's Government confronted and bipolarized the Spanish people lying and manipulating even when the truth was alreday obvious for millions. This caused an automatic reaction in the low and middle classes thinking "they make wars against our opinion, then it's our blood who pays them, and furthermore they're lying us and insulting our deads and our intelligence". Not a good cocktail for a Government seeking re-election, I'm afraid. The result has been obvious. I think that if they had told the truth, they would have lost votes, but perhaps won the elections by a scarce majority. When they decided to lie the impossible, they committed suicide.



Sorry for my English if it sounds a bit strange, I can't practice it often.



With my best wishes of peace, freedom and (real) democracy to everyone, from Spain the Brave.



#83 — September 8, 2004 @ 03:41AM — shivaman

Islam is a sickness that if we don't do something about it (grind it into the ground)we will be responsible for all the death it will cause!
I whish the USA would comb all the middle east and kill this monster!

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