Too bad not all black people like Jesse Jackson.

Well said, RC. I've had an equally difficult time reconciling Rev. Jackson's hypocrisy when it comes to discrimination against groups other than African-Americans, most notably gays and Jews.

Is that ebonics Ambra?

Jesse "Mr love child while cheating on 'sacred' spouse' Jackson long ago lost my respect.

I voted for Sharpton in the NY primary. The ideological heir now to MLK Jr. He's really good in those debates.

it is becoming increasingly difficult to live in this heterosexual dictatorship

I would certainly disput that it is becoming "increasingly difficult" for gays in America. I would say recent very public activity speaks to the contrary - who would have imagined that we would literally have gay marriage, not yet widespread but very real, in the US in 2004? that is remarkable movement, and while there has been some backlash, it is hardly severe. No the country HAS changed and will continue to change.

RC, you have an exceptionally wide range in your thinking and writing and we are always toe better for it. Thanks.

Eh..I am not going to go into the whole gay marriage thing. I just want to say I support Jesse Jackson in saying that Gay Oppression being compared to the civil rights movement is either an insult or an underestimation of the civil rights crisis.

Why I do not want to go into the reasons and so on is because unlike other topics where I am quite willing to explode:) I feel that the main writer of this topic is very close to the issues and is personally affected by this matter. Moreover, what side you fall on in this issue I think depends on what your opinion is on homosexuality/heterosexuality.

My humble opinion is that to be gay is a choice. To be black is not. Now, many of you will accuse me of ignorance. That's fine.

I do not subscribe to the school of people being born gay. Nobody is born gay. Infact I would rather argue the point of whether we are born with any sexual orientation at all than argue the point of being born gay. For me, unequivocally no. You can't be born gay. So if you are gay its a choice and if you are black you were born that way.

I find there is a difference in being oppressed because of the colour of your skin than in being oppressed because of who you are banging. Therefore, JJ for one of the few times in his life has my support on this one.

Raging, I addressed some of this in comments to Pepper's entry. Though I wholeheartedly support the right of gays to marry, I agree with Rev. Jackson that the stuggles of gays and African-Americans are not synonymous. You say there were gays marching with Dr. King. Well, there were gays siccing dogs on Dr. King's marchers, too. And, owning slaves. Participating in Ku Klux Klan rallies. Opposing voting rights. You name it. Today, there are definitely white homosexuals engaging in any kind of racial discrimination white heterosexuals do. (And more. The gay community is rife with problems of bigotry.) I fear you are making the mistake of hoisting homosexuals up as paragons of virtue. They're not. They deserve equal rights. But, the claim they have suffered as much or more than people of color in America is malarkey. White privilege is the best protection going, and it protects gays, too.

You can read Pepper's piece and comments here. I responded to his entry, which I consider just another far Right Republican playing the race card, here. As far as I know, Pepper has yet to post one word of criticism of the GOP's stance on gay marriage, which is more restrictive than Rev. Jackson's.

Sandra, I am generally content to let you banter on with whomever in the rather officious and loquacious style to which you are accustomed (I can't imagine why you would argue with someone about the finer points of "paralegalism," but that's your business). But sometimes you just plain make things up. Who the hell are you to dismiss an entire generation of genetecists who have found correlations between genes and homosexuality? No one is saying heredity is a 100% determining factor in all cases, but there is exactly zero doubt that it is a very strong factor in many or most cases: ie, most gays are born that way. Are lawyers in the UK allowed to ignore facts on, say, Fridays, because they goddamn-well feel like it?

Now, ACTING upon one's sexual orientation may be a matter of "choice," if you choose to view it that way, but the basic orientation is not. And the dismissive wave of your hand does not change reality.

MD-

I disagree with ANY politician, Republican or Democrat, who supports legislation limiting the civil rights of gays.

Eric, calm down and stop getting your knickers in a twist. You asking me who I am etc is not going to change my opinion. Just as there are geneticists who have found a correlation, there are those who have found none. Who the hell are you, Mr Olsen, to dismiss those geneticists? It's like everything in life. There is always another side to the story.

I am not making anything up? What have I made up? Please, point that out to me. I said in my humble opinion you can't be born gay? How is that me making up anything?

Don't worry about Lawyers in the UK. You know nothing about what we choose to do on Fridays like how we know nothing about what u choose to do on Friday's. The eagle's way of life is no concern of the rat. Focus on the topic at hand.

I dismiss nobody and I dismiss nothing. I simply stated my opinion and nothing I have heard from Gays, or geneticists in all these years have changed my opinion. Why? Because like I said there are geneticists that disagree with those you agree with. Also, shock! Horror! There are gays who actually believe that society or a certain event in their lives made them gay. So, please, I know you've been keeping this rant all boiled up and have chosen this topic to express your reaction to my opinions or ways of posting. I expected nothing else from you, Eric.

The fact still remains that I believe no one is born gay and there are geneticists who disagree with those who take your view. You believe that some are born gay and some geneticists have said so. Who are you to tell me which section of geneticists I should agree with?!

Sandra,

I support any person's right to an opinion, which is why I refuse to support your right to assert an untestable fact.

It amazes me how so many people in America instantly become world-renowned ministers, psychologists and scientists when the issue of homosexuality arises.

Unfortunately, Sandra, you are probably none of these things. Add to this fact that you do not even have first-hand knowledge of homosexuality because you are not gay, and I am left confused with how you have made so many illogical conclusions. So, I must beg you to support your argument with facts. Otherwise, no one will understand your point.

If we continue to accept statements like Ms. Smallson's we are doing America a lot of damage. To justify our legal system on mere gut-feelings is not only irrational, it is blatantly ignorant, and wholly unconstitutional.

People call opponents of gay rights ignorant because they have yet to produce a single piece of evidence to justify their cause. It is usually based in Biblical text (which should not be used against anyone due to the freedom of religion), or it is based on a refusal to look into the matter like any responsible person would do.

So, Ms. Smallson, feel free to advocate your opinions about homosexuality (i.e. it is gross, or it makes you sick), but please refrain from making accusations concerning the origins of sexuality. You are not entitled to make false assertions of fact, especially if these facts are presently untestable.

-RC



QUOTE By Sandra Smallson (below):

Mac Diva,

You obviously did not read my letter thoroughly. I denounce any homosexual who is a racist, not only in practice, but in my own letter as well.

Once again, NOBODY IS COMPARING THE TWO MOVEMENTS. They are often times mentioned together in the news and other media. But you have apparently fallen for the same red herring as the Reverend.

Nobody is saying that one group has been more discriminated against than the other. HOW SICK IS IT THAT PEOPLE LIKE JESSE JACKSON HAVE TO COMPETE FOR SUCH A PRIZE!

The bottom line is that if minorites (of all types) do not band together to fight oppresion, then none of us will ever win. Why? Because alone, we are statistical minorities. However, together, we are the vast majority.

Sandra, very plainly then, please show me ANY geneticist who has found that there is no correlation between genetics and homosexuality. I am aware of none and I have looked into this some. If I am wrong I will cheerfully admit it. Thanks.

"Compete for a prize?" Suffering is a prize? If you really believe that, you don't understand any civil rights struggle, Raging.

The disparity of treatment is reflected in the disparity of status. Education. Employment. Income. Housing. Etc. Studies show white gay men are more likely to be above average in all three. In other words, white privilege has helped them excel in areas where visible minorities suffer the most of discimination. Nor do homosexuals suffer the daily disparate treatement meted out to visible minorities. Again, it has paid and continues to pay to be white -- even if you are gay.

I repeat: Deserve equal rights. Yes. Have had an equally bad experience? No.

I missed Sandra's post when making my first above. (We must have been preparing them at the same time.) She deserves the initial credit for pointing out that minority groups are not necessarily oppressed the same way.

I look forward to reading a blog entry by Scott Pepper in which he criticizes his fellow far Right Republican's opposition to gay marriage.

Sorry, I took so long, needed to find the time as this may be long:) So, it will be in 2 parts. Ok, here I go..Raging critic, I am thankful for this in your post "untestable facts". Think about it. Let me assure you that whatever you think about what I am going to say will be neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.

I do not know where in my post I claimed to be a scientist, minister or psychologist. I stated my opinion.

I base my opinion on this..Sexual preference can not be genetically predetermined. To say that geneticists have found a correlation in the genes means you are saying your sexual attraction is in your genes. You like what your daddy liked, and his mother before him, and her father before her. We know thats just not possible if not you won't be here to be gay, now would ya? because Jane can't impregnate Jill and bob can't impregnate frank.

To me, being born gay is quite frankly unproven no matter what Eric says. Thats like saying if Joe has a fetish for threesomes then he was genetically predetermined to like threesomes. A sexual preference is psychological. It is acquired. You CAN NOT be predetermined to like something. This is where the complication of hereditary genes come in. So, a gay person might have inherited it. Did Jane inherit her preference for anal sex too? It's like manna from heaven to tell gay people that its not a sociological problem. They were born that way. Thats just not possible and geneticist can say it is and argue that it is but really, at the end of the day it is a sociological thing.

I will give examples. My neighbour is a gay rights activist and spends his life doing researches and writing papers on this matter. I have met, and I do not exaggerate, literally thousands of homosexuals through him and had discussions with them that went on for weeks. I have read so many of their articles. I have watched so many of their documentaries with so called experts like these geneticists that Olsen speaks of. I have even somewhat informally interviwed 100's in gay spots across the Land. It was a major mooting point in school. All these may not be solid grounds to you compared to your scientists or whatever, but they are to me.

I have come to find over a period of atleast 4 years, that all in all, a person is not born gay for the reasons I stated above and more. There is always a traumatic experience behind it. Many of them have blocked it out and chanted they were born gay but when taken to psychiatrists this traumatic event is brought to the fore. A major percentage of the gays I have met admit a certain event in their lives that they pinpoint as when they knew they were gay. Many of them are from dysfunctional families and I bet you statistics(that I do not have, before Olsen asks:) will prove me right.

One said when he was 11 he found he was attracted to boys. I asked how so? He went to a boys school, he was bullied by boys and sometimes had his genitals played with. His mother was unattentive as were his sisters and he liked the boys at school. he suddenly realised during sex education that he might be gay. He has never tried sex with a woman. Another one did it out of rebellion at the age of 17. Another one was sodomised by his father. infact many have child abuse stories. Some others have stories of being neglected by girls because they seemed effeminate. Some were brought up in gay household. Infact most were bisexual but classified themselves as gay. The effeminate ones even told me that although they were attracted to girls, the fact they were so effeminate and called gay all their lives, they thought that must be it, I am gay because I am effeminate. The stories are endless. I do not say people in same situations always turn out gay. i say you find amongst gay people stories of this sort more often than not.

Homosexuality is defined as sexual attraction directed toward someone of the same sex. So what you want me to believe is that a homosexuals sexual attraction is predetermined? Why are you the exception? that means any attraction can be predetermined and the issue of like or dislike does not figure. Sexuality is predetermined? Sexuality means the constitution of an individual in relation to sexual attitudes or activity. Attitude in this context means, An enduring, learned predisposition to behave in a consistent way toward a given class of objects, or a persistent mental and/or neural state of readiness to react to a certain class of objects, not as they are but as they are conceived to be.

If you understand those definitions as they co-relate you would see that even the definition of homosexuality when broken down, does not allow for this get out clause that some geneticists have found for you. Not as they are, but as they are CONCEIVED to be. The effect of society on the mind, in this case.

Again, what is genetics? The study of the patterns of inheritance of specific traits. What is a trait? A qualitative characteristic; a discrete attribute as contrasted with metrical character. it is an attribute of phenotype, not of genotype. HERE IS THE BIG POINT..What is phenotype? The total characteristics displayed by an organism under a particular set of environmental factors, regardless of the actual genotype of the organism. Results from interaction between the genotype and the environment.

My point can not be more clearly made. Regardless of the ACTUAL GENOTYPE of the organism. Instead it results from the interaction b/w the genotype and the environment which is where all my sociological factors come in. I mean we can go back and forth all day and all year and you can think what you like of my grounds, but they are what they are and I believe they are very valid grounds and atleast points enough to raise reasonable doubts in what gays have now taken as gospel by some geneticists that they were born that way. Sexual preference can not be genetic because then love of icecream could be genetic,beastiality could be genetic, all sorts of things could be allowed that excuse.

I am sorry if the definitions irritated you. i am not saying you did not know what those words meant already but to make my point as you requested I needed to define them because to me even the definition of your sexual orientation precludes the conclusion gays like and some geneticists have come to.

Eric, I am sorry I can not name one geneticist that disagrees with all the ones you know. I also can not name any of the doctors who dispute the fact that the MMR jab leads to autism. I can't name any who dispute the correlation b/w cancer and ciggis but THEY ARE OUT THERE. I did not come up with all the above on my own. these are some of the points some of them made when disputing your point of view and I totally agreed with them. If you truly want to believe that there is NO geneticist on earth who says Gays are not born that way, then, whatever gets you through the night. I stand firmly by my point. I am sorry that I am not so worried about this topic as you are to have crammed the names,dates, places etc of where I heard or saw these geneticists. If I had known I would come across you, I might have:) Still, I don't think I need to tell you a single name. I can't believe that anyone in this world exists with thinking that there is any one topic in the medical world where all the doctors and scientists are in agreement..LOL. That's just downright laughable.

It may be what you WANT to believe, but wanting doesn't make it so, same way that Frank wanting Mark or jane wanting Jill does not mean it's in their genes and they were born that way. That's a cop out and it's a shame so many gay people are willing to jump on that. You like it, you like it. I like smoking. I don't know if its in my genes..lol..and even if it was, thats not why i smoke. I smoke because I WANT to and I LIKE to. Certain types of things can not be genetically predetermined.








I am not saying, they are not currently enjoying the sex they are having but thats another thing entirely. I am not going to get into the Biblical thing because not everyone believes in God therefore the non-believers have no qualms with being gay.

Mac Diva,

If you were the judge, you would obviously be passing out the blue ribbon to the black community. You have the audacity to sit there and say that one group has been more oppressed than another - simply because they have immutable traits. Well thank you Justice Scalia.

HELLO PEOPLE - THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE.

You are comparing apples to oranges. I have no idea what it feels like to have a police officer pull me over on a weekly basis. But straight black people have no idea what it is like to close yourself off from the entire world into a shunned sense of isolation. And Mac Diva, if you are white and straight, you cannot comprehend EITHER.

BOTH EXAMPLES ARE THE EFFECTS OF DISCRIMINATION. BOTH ARE DESERVING OF ATTENTION. BOTH ARE WRONG.

And for the record.... my friend John experienced one day of disparate treatment. If you are a man, then you should be able to relate. Two truck drivers followed him into a gas station restroom and attacked him with box cutters. The sliced him open from his anus to his scrotum and he nearly died.

I do agree that it pays to be white. And I think it sucks big time. It is not fair and it needs to be stopped.

I am puzzled by your stance. It seems that you support my beliefs yet you attack me. Jesse Jackson is competing for a prize. He is essentially saying, "we have been through worse times and these gay people can't even come close. Therefore, they don't count." Oh yeah, "and they chose to be gay too."

Whatever Mary!

Raging Critic - nice work. Well said. I got it. And you're not alone.

Just wanted to let you know that not all of your readers are as nuts as some of the above.

PS to Sandi - you should put together all of your posts and publish the next "Ulysses".

Oy.

Raging, I am not attacking you. (I don't know why some people think one is whenever there is any disagreement at all.) We agree on the important issue of equal rights for gays. I do support allowing them to marry. My complaint is their very white tendency to try to redefine everything is being about them. According to the people who make the gay rights movement equals anti-racism movement claim, their experience is virtually a mirror image of slavery and genocide. A bigger lie can't be told. White gays have largely thrived in America in the ways that matter -- good jobs and enough money to live on. Furthermore, gay people, when they choose to remain discrete, can 'pass' whenever they want to. The whole of American history would be utterly different if that was possible for people of color. I really believe the gay rights movement would be wise to stop making the claim that people like the Log Cabin Republicans are reeling from oppression. It is ludicrous. Other than lack of marriage rights and instances of private discrimination, they are being treated much better than most people of color.

Sandra,

I really do appreciate your cross sample analysis of the gay community. However, psychologists and psychiatrists studied this for centuries. They collected more data on this subject than you could possibly squeeze into your web site, much less your brain. They finally came to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a psychological disorder.

Unfortunately, most psychological studies are interpreted by lay people and haphazardly applied to an entire group of people. Although Alfred Kinsey may have collected a whole slew of inaccurate data, he did uncover something that most people in the field have accepted - that all people fall on a continuum. We fall into a continuum in almost EVERY facet of our existence. Sexuality is no different. I will concede that your thoughtful illustration portraying all of your gay friends' personal experiences is heartfelt and revealing. However, it fails to take one thing into account. It fails to consider the broad notion of individual differences.

You see, gay boy "x" may have had a girlfriend. Gay boy "y" may have even had a wife. Gay boy "a" may have never had a girlfriend. Gay boy "b" may have never had a girlfriend. Gay boy "c" may have never had sex a day in his life. Gay boy "d" may have never sex with 3,000 men.

You are right Sandra, the stories are endless. They are so endless that we cannot determine the cause of this phenomenon. This is why it should be entirely irrelevant when discussing whether it is right or wrong. So, Sandra, I am going to give this to you the hard way.....

Suppose we do choose to be gay.

Now tell me, why is it still wrong and why do I not deserve equal protection of the laws.

I am engaging in consensual sex with another adult.

I am paying my taxes and have devoted my life to law.

I am a good person who helps the homeless and often time place the interests of other before my own interests.

So what is it that makes it wrong -aside from a biblical justification? You cannot possibly argue that should society fully accept it that more people would be gay today. That would be ridiculously patronizing and preposterous to say the least. In the course of 6,000 years, gay people have gone from being totally accepted centuries ago to those horrifyingly oppressive 1950's. In all of this time, we have not managed to convert many people. Just ask the fundamentalists and they will tell you that homosexuals are a measly 2% of the population.

I have said this once and I will say it again. I will fight tooth and nail for any genetic testing to determine whether any of us are right. Believe me, I would love to one day look you in the eye and tell you that they found the great Xq28 gene - just so I could laugh right in your face. However, I know the consequences. People like George Bush and the lunatics who have hi-jacked our churches would advocate for our extermination. Gay rights groups know it and the religious organizations know it. So, Sandra, we will never know the answer, because to discover it would be a catch 22 for all parties involved.


So, now that we have thrown out the Bible and set aside the slippery slope argument, the question remains..... Why is it wrong? And furthermore, why should we deny equal protection from these people in the Land of the Free?

What good does that do?

-RC

Mac Diva,

It is not that we are saying that the log cabin republicans are reeling from oppression. We are only saying that their vote is going to interests of those who want to anhilate us.

Look, you are straight. You have no idea what is really going on here because you are straight. There is nothing wrong with that either. You don't see it because you do not need to. I am not mad at you about it either.

But I can assure you that the fundamentalists have a goal - to eliminate us from the face of the earth. If you do not believe me, I beg you to visit the web sites of every religiously backed anti-gay group on the web. If we allow them to pay our government off with their donations, then our President will do whatever it takes to keep us down.

These people come to our gatherings and bring signs calling us "faggots" and tell us that "God hates us." Others say we should be executed.

So this is not about the pain we have endured. This is about the pain we are preventing from ever happening in the future. Whether our experiences as blacks and gays are the same or diffent is therefore irrelevant.

RC, I don't see where I have written on this topic that it is wrong and you are wrong to fight for your rights.

It's almost 3am and I fly in less than 6 hrs so I must get some shut-eye. I return on Tuesday though and if this topic is still "live" I will get around to why I think it may be wrong but in some cases right:)Rest assured though that whether I think it is right or wrong I still do not believe that gays should suffer discrimination. Does not mean I agree with gay marriage..oh..I'm getting carried away with gist:) I really must try to sleep. I have enjoyed the discussion and hope to continue when I get back. You have your opinion and I have mine, atleast we know why we feel the way we do.

I look forward to reading a blog entry by Scott Pepper in which he criticizes his fellow far Right Republican's opposition to gay marriage.

MD-

How can I refuse a challenge like that?

Enjoy.

Above link appears to be broken.

Trying again.

Racism has nothing to do with homosexuality. Sex at all, let alone homosexual sex, is a conscious choice. Somewhere along the line, someone decided that it is like breathing...that humans will fall over and die without it. That we need it and deserve it. And now, everyone would like to believe that. Next on the list of necessities will probably be coffee. And to think that for thousands of years it was just food, water, and shelter. But the bad part is that not only do people think they need and deserve sex, but they think they need and deserve it in the manner that they like best. Like Burger King. Wow.

With this mindset, I can't help but fear for the future. Soon, people will think they need and deserve it with animals. Then genetic-pseudo-science will say that people are born prefering animals over people. And some are born murderers. Should those with a born murderer profile be aborted before birth?

If homosexuality were genetic, homosexuals would have gone extinct long ago. Or let me guess, society forced them to get married to a person of the opposite sex (even though they thought it was horrible), and somehow they managed to have children even without that sexual attraction. Sure!

Genetics and all of these -ologies were just basically invented in the last 100 years, and now people are so confident in them that the opinion of a modern "scientist" is held up like it is fact. People now put themselves on a pedestal, claiming that they are the smartest people of all time, and everyone else were primitive and ignorant. How arrogant...how..stupid.

If these scientists are so smart, why don't you ask them to stop you from dying? But no, we will all die. I have a strange feeling that all of those here who are holding up science and opinion will finally discover the worth of such things when that time comes.

dear rev. jesse jackson
i know that that you may not read this but i have hope's that someone in your circle will, and maybe tell you about e-mail. i know that you have march along side the mr. king and both had the same dream to see us the black peolpe rise. my question to you, is do you think the dream has come true? because i don't. sure we have over come many things in the pass, but we still have a great deal if things to over come.what happen and what is happening in new orleans.was a eye opener for me. it let me know that we are still in the begain part of over come. all this time! we are still at the begain. mr. jackson please know in think about this that more than half of black america don't know there history, histroy that you help write.i know that you are doing your best to help. i just hope you have not lost glimpse what your goal was years age,while we keep hope alive!!!!!!!

Rev.Jesse Jackson and his Rainbow Coalition is the most Racist group in America. He is a Hypicript sence he cheated on his wife and he is a so-called man of the cloth.......

im very sorry for prisoner and death's families loss. their families sould not blame and against eath other, they sould prostestors against gun shop. like jesse jackson protestors ralley gun shop but he didnt win the case. why many families dont join to protestors againt gun shop cause they didnt think that not going to happen to them? then some one in the families got killed from gangster, anger, cheaters, accidently and any reason? come on, that happen daily! read your local newspaper daily and releize that the gun volience is still out there day time and night time, outside and inside. if the gun shop said if they close the gun shop and ganster and any body can find a gun from some place, sure they will but that will be more less than now. I will write about this on every site to find a way to close the gun shop.

Whether you believe being gay is a choice or it's just the way you are born, we as Americans are free to be whomever and whatever we choose. That's the wonderful thing about being an American. We are not forced by dictator to live our lives a certain way, as long as we are not committing crimes :) Whites and blacks have the right to marry and procreate. Overweight people can marry thin people. We as human can't choose who we fall in love with therefore if 2 men fall in love or 2 women fall in love, they should have the right to be happy and marry. Gay rights are slowly being accepted throughout the world. We just need to be patient and realize that the world was not created in 7 days :-)