Dearest Mac Diva:

I wish not to debate affirmative action, except to point out that I have benefitted from it as have many black people and our community at large. However, I should point out that preferences, quotas, outreach, training, and so forth in HIRING helps us much more than it does in selective university admissions and contracting. But look at me doing exactly what I stated that wished not to do.

Rather, your comment: "I believe these 'bake sales' create hostile environments on college campuses by encouraging white students to hold their nonwhite peers in contempt." I would hasten to remind you that there are PLENTY of folks on college campuses doing things to create a hostile environment that creates much contempt and intimidation for people that they dislike, disagree with, or are different from. I personally think that these affirmative action bake sales are loathsome (especially in California, Florida, and Texas where such policies are illegal at public colleges) but if the far more loathsome, hostile, aggressive, etc. things that you find in your women's studies, black studies, deconstructionist and popular culture studies, anthropology, sociology, psychology, etc. departments in addition to the progressive activist groups and even university administration are allowed to persist, the conservatives have the right to be hostile and offensive in turn, especially since they are so outnumbered. Realize that while Republicans and conservatives may be doing their best to repel minorities, the new Democrats and the new left are completely founded on the notion of taking down white people who aren't atheist, gay, or just so filled with self hate (or misdirected guilt) that they are downright peculiar like Howard Dean. Celinda Lake, this feminist who has reached the height of her profession as a Democratic pollster/strategist type, recently came out and said that Democrats shouldn't even try to court the votes of married middle class suburban white males (the husbands of the lower end soccer moms) because, well, she didn't want them in her coalition. Mighty revealing ...

(Will try to fix the ital thing.)

Of course there are liberals who go over the top, Gerald. I've been possibly the strongest critic of liberal hypocrisy in the blogosphere. The 'progressives' are often even worse. For many white people, liberalism and progressivism are like clothes. They put them on and take them off as suits them.

But that does not get the Republicans off the hook for any of the reactionary crap they promote to keep this a divided society with those at the bottom of it economically, politically and socially disproportionately women and nonwhites.

These 'bake sales' are orchestrated by the state and national GOP. Their goal of encouraging contempt toward minority students is indefensible. And, creating those hostile environments works. Drop out rates for students of color at colleges with reputations for allowing or encouraging harassment of minority students are extremely high. The students leave at such a rate the recruitment process is constantly in motion. The 'bake sale' on the lawn, racist graffiti on the dorm door, prof who calls on the only nonwhite students in the class on one day of the course and ignores them the rest, will be their most lasting memories.

"And, creating those hostile environments works. Drop out rates for students of color at colleges with reputations for allowing or encouraging harassment of minority students are extremely high."

Sorry, this manifestly is not true. Dropout rates for blacks in college are simply high across the board. The left uses those numbers to claim that blacks are being discriminated against, the right uses these numbers to claim that affirmative action should be disbanded. But let me tell you ... the places where the black dropout rates are highest are at HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES. I should know ... I attended one. FAMU's 6 year graduation rate when I entered in 1990 was 25%. Now it is up to almost 50%, and that puts it into the top 10 of black colleges. Since most black colleges (including my own alma mater) cannot be accused of being overly demanding, rigorous, or competitive (as well they shouldn't be ... if that is what you want then you should pick another school) and they certainly aren't hostile (if anything they err on being too forgiving), the problem is obviously with the students themselves. And that is ...

A) Right now, most black kids in college are the first in their family to attend college. No matter your race or socioeconomic status, if you are the first in your family to attend college, your chances of not succeedingare huge.

B) Most black kids attend horrible, failing public schools. Actually, the kids who are less gifted intellectually do better when you are in such a background, because you are used to working for your good grades. But a very bright kid in a bad school gets used to breezing through without working or studying. So ... they get to college thinking they can do the same thing, and they struggle ... especially if they are A) the first in their family to go to college and don't have anyone to tell them to buckle down. So, not surprisingly, a lot of the kids who experience difficulties related to A) and B) presume that the problem is racism when it is really more cultural.

And then there is C) so many of our kids become single fathers and mothers in their teens and early 20s. Kinda hard to concentrate on your studies if you are a single parent, and that adds to your financial pressure. And then there is D) ... so many black men in jail, and a lot of them who aren't in jail who could go to college don't because of C) which causes them to grow up without role models or with unsuitable role models (bad peers, dudes on the corner, their mother's boyfriend of the month et al).

Sorry, these affirmative action bake sales have only been going on for a few months. Minority dropout rates have been staggering and black male college attendance has been declining for decades now. I do admit that there are some white conservatives (not so much a problem among the neocons by the way) who would like to reduce black college attendance and graduation, but we are playing right into our hands by refusing to address our bad schools (especially those run by Democrats in our urban centers) and cultural problems (I can understand our adopting the economic liberal agenda because we are disproportionately poor and need higher wages and social programs, but did we have to adopt the social liberal agenda too? Why? Just because these Hillary Clinton suburban femiNazis who only know two black women ... their roommate in college and their maid, oppose these marriage initiatives we have to go along too? We have to pretend that 70% illegitimacy rates isn't a problem that the government needs to address? Recycling is the government's business but marriage isn't?).

Hey, like I said, I don't like these affirmative action bake sales either. But when you have administrations at these colleges not allowing conservative and Christian student groups to form (Donna Shalala of the University of Miami refused to grant permission for a conservative student group, telling them that they already had the college Republicans ... galling when there are TONS of liberal and progressive groups ... and many colleges will allow groups for Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Wiccans, and whatever but deny Christian groups because of "separation of church and state") then I still say that conservatives have to put up with a much more hostile environment on college campuses than blacks.

I haven't looked at data on historically black colleges, Gerald. Will check though. However, we have to remember that less than half of students who enter college have graduated five years later across the board. I'm basing my opinion about why minority students flee schools such as the ones you mentioned above with information collected from the students themselves. They say the stress and alienation drive them away. If minority students drop out for the same reasons white students do, then discrimination is not a key. But, not only do they drop out at a much higher rate, they cite discriminatory environments as a reason. So, this seems to be about hostile environments.

You touched on something ancillary to a topic I blogged yesterday, Gerald. I wrote about a different aspect of that artist and success, but I also wonder why the song at issue is so popular among African-American music buyers. Does it tell us something about male-female relations?

Well, as far as the gender wars between black men and black women, I just won't go there. No one cause, no easy solutions. I just point out that we were a polygamous culture in Africa, brought to America against our will and systematically prevented from forming a family structure until about, oh, 1980 (some say 1950) when we finally started to have the the social and financial stability that it takes to support one, and now all of a sudden we are supposed to be Cliff and Claire Huxtable? I suppose that I just have to pray that my own marriage continues to be happy and do my best to make it so and go from there.

"However, we have to remember that less than half of students who enter college have graduated five years later across the board." Yes, I made the same point.

I never said that we don't experience racism and racial isolation, even eurocentric sellouts like me are not immune. Getting stopped by the cops when going to the library or when driving home from the job that was putting me through school ... real nice. However, I think that most kids would overcome that sort if thing if their grades were better. But their grades are bad because they don't have the cultural background, study habits, and are often years behind the competition in the material that they have been presented. So, their grades suck, and they remember every racist incident that happened to them, of course.

I remember how after Prop 209 passed in California and One Florida passed in Florida, it was at that point that our leaders finally got serious about putting AP and college placement courses in majority black high schools, as well as stuff like International Baccaleaurate programs. If you are sitting in math class at an elite college and your 99 classmates all had two years of calculus and all the other kids in all the other math classes this year and the past 10 years had two years of calculus, you are going to raise a hand and ask a question that the professor is going to respond "If you don't know the answer to that, what are you doing here?" and your classmates are going to laugh at you. And you are going to SWEAR that the professor and classmates were racist, and when you flunk that class (which you will do unless you are freaking brilliant), lose confidence (after all, you made straight As in high school ... not used to that type of adversity ... everything came easy to you ... people came to you for help so you aren't used to asking for it), and flunk/drop out, that is what you are going to attribute it to. But the truth is what was racist was your high school not giving their college bound students two years of calculus the way those suburban high schools did.

And then you have the other crap about being lonely, homesick, having to go from your 90% black and poor high school to your 90% white and upper class college filled with kids who talk and dress funny and listen to weird music and look at you funny. Sure, that is tough, but if you would have passed that freshman math class, things would have been different ... not saying that racism doesn't exist, but it doesn't play nearly as big a factor as illegitimacy and high schools that don't prepare our kids for college. It would be fascinating to compare the dropout rates of black kids who went to mostly white suburban high schools versus those who went to mostly black rural and inner city ones, even if you account for socioeconomic status. And THEN compare the educational peformance of black kids from two parent families versus black kids from single parent families no matter the socioeconomic status or quality of high school or family history of attending college if you REALLY want some insight ... sadly no right wing or left wing types are doing or publicizing that research because it fits no one's agenda ... conservatives want to take away opportunity and liberals want to provide opportunity regardless of whether the person who receives it is in a position to take advantage of it.

I agree we, middle-class minority people, need to do more to staunch the bleeding, Gerald. But, too often only a few individuals do. I have had two of my journalism students live with me for a while when they were about to be homeless -- one of the the brightest people I've ever taught, an African-American girl who went and got herself knocked up sophomore year, and a white one whose foster home became too awful to live in. My colleagues at the newspaper and college were baffled. A nasty secret of too many petit bourgeoisie is that they don't really want the status quo to change. So, the supposed hand up often becomes a kick down. Changing that situation is key to changing others.

Mac Diva:

Well, you have indicted me there. For all of my ideological ranting, you have done what I have not ... made a difference in someone's life. Well, perhaps I had better start, and no time like the present. Enjoyed the debate, and thanks!