Blogcritics: Comments on Christian ritual abuse

Comment by Mac Diva

Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:52:44 EST

After reading yesterday's articles in the NYT about what Mel Gibson is up to, I am even more wary. Even if the movie is fair, refusing to show it to Jews is wrong, I think. There's a description of the head of the Simon Wiesenthal Center literally sneaking into a screening. Are Gibson and his pals in Opus Dei so removed from the real world they don't see how that looks? Barger, do you also believe that, even when you haven't bathed, you don't smell bad?

Comment by BB

Sat, 24 Jan 2004 04:21:55 EST

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.

Comment by Al Barger

Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:54:25 EST

Quite sure, Diva. Now, I don't claim absolute moral perfection- for all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. Plus, I reject the common Christian concept that all sin is equal, and that anything short of perfection deserves only eternal damnation. I just don't feel any lingering guilt over stealing a candy bar in 3rd grade, or some such nonsense. Other than a few things on that order, I have not done very much or severe sinning against others. You'd be hard put to find anyone with any even vaguely credible personal grievance against me. In short, I'm a pretty decent fellow. For that, I do not expect to get a medal. However, I also do no expect to volunteer to carry an unearned weight of guilt. To get back to Natalie's point in comment #74, I again reject that it is my inherent moral responsibility to fix the world. I take a little stab at helping out as I can, but I didn't make the problems of the world. I can't fix the world- I don't have the wherewithal. Some of that is that I personally am less than especially powerful, and some of that is that not everything CAN be fixed. Some of it is that I simply do not owe my life to charity. Indeed, like my hero Mencken, I tend to be most especially morally suspicious of just exactly those who put themselves in charge of fixing people and things. Charged with a sense of moral superiority, do-gooders of all stripes do very much of the worst avoidable damage in the world. Also, I might suggest that do-gooders take a famous admonition from the Hippocratic oath to heart: First, do no harm. I just know that I sleep good.

Comment by Mac Diva

Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:47:19 EST

Barger, are you sure you don't want to reconsider your position on this? Alex Olsen has good grounds, but an adult. . . .

Comment by Natalie Davis

Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:29:58 EST

having seen ms. loeb in action, i quite understand. you'll see me down below with the veggieburgers.

Comment by Mark Saleski

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:36:30 EST

i had a completely clear conscience earlier this evening. it lasted through the drive home and dinner. but then a little while later my wife went to bed and i watched this cooking show with dweezil zappa and lisa loeb. ...there was much lust in my heart. see you all in hell.

Comment by Al Barger

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:17:07 EST

I explicitly reject your theory of what is essentially original sin, Natalie. Speaking for myself, I have never oppressed anyone. I have never been malicious in my personality, and I have tried to understand and properly consider the viewpoints of others. I reject as specifically LAUGHABLE your apparent contention that someone would have to actively promote your laundry list of pinko nonsense in order to atone for the sin of being born.

Comment by Natalie Davis

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:30:41 EST

To my reckoning, Alex and young kids would be the only innocent ones. Duane, are you working for equality for all under law? If not -- IMO, of course -- the evil in which you are complicit would count as being foul. If you pay taxes, you are complicit in a foul evil (government extortion makes that possible, so you get some mitigation happening there, but still). Brian, I hope you are the Messiah. We have much to discuss.

Comment by Brian Flemming

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:48:41 EST

Eric,

Although I AM forgiven - Christianity is a sweet deal.

I don't forgive you. And as far as you know, I'm the Messiah. I'm just saying look out is all. Just be careful.

Comment by duane

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:42:30 EST

You got the Pontius right, but it's Pilate.

Comment by frost

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:36:07 EST

"Where is Frost? Did he just drop back by to tell non-Christians our 'destiny'? He isn't doing a heck of a lot to sell his faith, is he?" Hey Mac: I was at work when I typed that and my home pc is broken, but thanks for the snide remark. And I don't have to sell my faith to you. you are responsible for you, and I am responsible for me. I was not condemning anyone. Brian brought up hell. I didn't say anyone was going anywhere. Oh, Brian... you and Eric are both right. The roman Pontius Pilot (prolly spelled his first name wrong) ordered the crucifixion but it was only after the insistance of the Pharisees. Yes, he washed his hands, but that doesn't mean he didn't do something wrong. It was a combo of the two that hold guilt.

Comment by duane

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:26:25 EST

I believe in the domino theory. If I surrender to disco, next it will be country, and I'll find myself taking line dancing lessons with Roy and Emmy. I hesitate to even speculate what might happen after that. Must... fight ... the ... urge....

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:17:06 EST

Duane, you would be happier if you surrendered to your inner disco fan.

Comment by duane

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:33:58 EST

"Who among us is not complicit in some foul evil, if only, for some, by being silent?" I might have been complicit in evil once or twice in my life. But "foul" evil? Nah. Mostly just innocuous evil, like sitting silently, not expressing my outrage when disco music was playing in the background. I have been ridden with guilt over this ever since the first time I heard "Boogie Oogie Oogie," and failed to punch out the DJ. Come to think of it, that is a foul evil.

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:27:16 EST

I would say my conscience is clear, but it isn't. Although I AM forgiven - Christianity is a sweet deal.

Comment by Mac Diva

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:24:58 EST

Al Barger and a newborn babe-:).

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:00:25 EST

And Alex's, because he's six weeks old today.

Comment by Al Barger

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:46:58 EST

Yes, Diva, really.

Comment by Mac Diva

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:34:44 EST

Really?

Comment by Al Barger

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:41:49 EST

Natalie Q: Who among us is not complicit in some foul evil, if only, for some, by being silent? Al A: ME My conscience is clear.

Comment by Natalie Davis

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:30:02 EST

Who among us is not complicit in some foul evil, if only, for some, by being silent?

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:25:31 EST

I don't think it necessarily would have happened without it, just sayng it still could have. The Romans could have easily felt threatened by his growing power down the line if it hadn't been checked, but it wouldn't have happened the way it did without the urging of the Jewish leadership. It is indeed an ironic, contradictory and central role that Jews play in the religious history of the world.

Comment by Brian Flemming

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:18:09 EST

Hmm...my memory is hazy, but I seem to remember a certain Roman "washing his hands" of the whole thing. True, Romans were in power. But the Pharisees did have strength and could have rallied the Jews in a rebellion against those who would kill their Messiah. As I understand it, that's what it boils down to for the Jew-hating wing of the Christian party (NOT a large wing, I know--I grew up a fundie and never heard a bad word spoken against Jews, except that they were doomed to Hell, poor fuckers). I'm not sure it could have "happened without their complicity."

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:07:12 EST

Actually, it was the Romans who killed him. The Jewish leadership was afraid of him and basically sold him out, but they didn't do the deed. So, it could have happened without their complicity, but it didn't.

Comment by Brian Flemming

Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:03:19 EST

It is not unreasonable to conclude that the Jewish establishment of the time did not treat Jesus honorably. But one must also remember that Jesus and most of his immediate followers were Jewish. Also, what if they hadn't killed Jesus? How would Christianity exist? How would people know what the cross means? Whose blood would Christians be drinking and flesh eating every Sunday? A Christ who died of old age in his sleep? Gross. "Let me tell you about the Son of God. He was born, he taught people a lot of things, he had a pet donkey and he lived happily ever after until he died at the ripe old age of 110." Sorry, that story won't travel. Christianity needs the torture and death of Christ. Even when I was a Christian I didn't get the whole the-Jews-did-it thing. Well, yeah, some of the Jews in power in that region helped to usher Jesus to Calvary. Do you really wish they hadn't?