I don't get your point. There are things to dislike about Wal-Mart, but you haven't really named one. From what I've seen, all kinds of people work and shop at Wal-Mart - black, white, latino, young, old. To be brutally honest, your post sounds like you are envious of the housewives with all the kids.

Victoria hates... Wal-Mart in this case.

The ad would seem to serve two purposes: one, respond to the "Wal-Mart destroys communities" argument; and two, show that Wal-Mart is committed to diversity. Is it BS? I don't know.

Anyway, many of the anti-Wal-Mart people are also anti-small business, so where the hell am I supposed to go to acquire goods and services?

Anyway, many of the anti-Wal-Mart people are also anti-small business, so where the hell am I supposed to go to acquire goods and services?

Interesting. I am not anti-small business. Actually I am 100% pro.

Then again, I don't fit into most of the pre-conceived stereotypes.

You're 100% pro small business? Are you serious, or just exaggerating? I ask because your posts don't exactly suggest an affinity for, or even familiarity with, the small business agenda. And I don't see why you would despise affluent small business folks any less than you despise affluent large enterprises.

I don't post much about business so I am not sure where you get your opinions about what I think or what I actually know.

The most important thing that comes before all else is responsibility.

Big business that is irresponsible with the environment, the community or the culture around is not good... of course not. However, responsible big business is fine.

There is enough room in this world for Mom and Pop AND Amazon for everyone to pull in a profit. Now... will everyone pull in an obscene amount of money... Well, if you are truly responsible, no you won't. But you will make enough to live better than comfortably.

It all depends on the amount of profit you want to make in the end, doesn't it?

You make it sound as if I am "anti-rich" when that is not true in the least. Capitalism is a great and wonderful thing... so long as everyone involved in it remains moral and just. The problem are the ones who do and ruin it for everyone else. This doesn't mean that we give up on capitalism but that we just make sure we monitor business practices from more than just a profit standpoint.

Your statements, with their suggestion that people not make too much money (and I guess you decide who should make what), strongly suggest an underlying hostility toward all business.

Just for an example, though, what is your position on exempting small businesses from estate taxes?

Wrong.

I did not say that people should not make "too much money".

The best way I can simply it is this:

If company A makes 10 cents profit on every shoelace that it sells. However, if the company decides to take the excess plastic from snipping the ends of the shoelaces and melt it and it gets into the water supply... but they now made 15 cents in profit- that is irresponsible.

Make as much profit as you like

so long as you are not harming the environment, community, or culture around you.

It is possible to do... you are just going to have to be happy that maybe you only make 34 million dollars a year as opposed to 75 million dollars, just to preserve the environment, culture and people around you.

If you have a good product or service, people will come to you to buy.

As far as estate and gift taxes go, I don't think they are fair for anyone. One should not have to pay out taxes on something that has been give to you as a gift, a bonus, or upon death. There are many other fair methods of getting tax income from the populace.

So I am not sure where you are getting my "hostility" towards business. That makes no sense. If it were not for "business", I couldn't walk down to the local comic store and load up on my favorite graphic novels.

I am hostile toward corporate irresponsibility. Irresponsibility does not have to go hand in hand with business small or large.

"Well, if you are truly responsible, no you won't."

you specifically stated that a responsible business won't try to maximize its profit (which you term "obscene").

now you have added to the scenario your fantasy of the business polluting the environment, as part of a cynical effort to change the terms of the debate--you are trying to put me in the position of defending a crooked enterprise. shameful.

leaving aside the dishonesty of adding that condition, most small businesses are not manufacturers, so your example is midly inapt as well.

so who should decide what the appropriate level of profit is?

I'm a little puzzled by this post as well. Who is the bad guy her? The mother? The black people? What has Wal-Mart done wrong, exactly? That they, um, allow people to shop at their stores when they should be imposing mandatory sterilization instead? That they target ads to specific minority groups?

Wal-mart is one of the most racially and culturally diverse places around. In many places, it's the only place you can go (aside from maybe church) to see people of different economic and ethnic backgrounds all sharing a common goal: to save money and get stuff. Should their commercials feature only white people? Must each commercial be carefully planned to reflect the exact demographics in the market in which the commercial airs? Is it possible that the commercial was highlighting a specific store that happened to be a in neighborhood populated primarily by black people?

I'm really confused. I've read the article twice, and I just don't get the beef.

PW: just re-read the first two words.

Phillip

That they target ads to specific minority groups?

Are you saying that all blacks don't have jobs and live in impoverished, derelict communities?

I think when a company is putting ads out that show a certain class and race of people in one light, hardly ever showing others, but when they finally do so others, but not in the same light as the former, something is not quite right. All blacks are not unemployed and live in bad communities. Some do, that is true. But so do some whites. Wal-Mart would have been better off in this case not to have made an ad featuring blacks at all if they are going to buy into the stereotype that if wal-mart helps blacks, that is because the blacks are living in the ghetto. The next ad then needs to show us some white trailer trash with a toilet in their front yard to be truly "fair".

Chris,

Big business that is irresponsible with the environment, the community or the culture around is not good... of course not. However, responsible big business is fine.

That is exactly what I stated in response to your inquiry. I've not changed the debate in the least. You want to believe that I said that I am against making a profit or even business when no where have I said anything like that. You are the one who decided to go off topic about estate taxes. I gave you my answer which I suspect was not what you were suspecting and further weakened your stance against me.

Not once did I say "profit is bad. rich is bad."

I did say, if making even MORE of a profit means that you end up destroying thing around you, i.e. people, culture, environment, etc... then YES that is NOT GOOD. If that is what you want to believe is me saying that people need to limit their profit... then so be it.

If I were to infer your thoughts from what you are arguing... then I am to assume that you think that if it means that you end up destroying things around you in order to make more money, then that is okay? Business in and of itself is not corrupt. It is the people who run them and the rules that they chose to run them by which makes a business corrupt or not. Sometimes, that extra 3 cents of profit isn't worth it in the grand scheme of things- esp if you are able to accomplish your tasks with what you currently have.

Write all the 500 word comments you want and selectively quote yourself all you want, but you wrote:

"There is enough room in this world for Mom and Pop AND Amazon for everyone to pull in a profit. Now... will everyone pull in an obscene amount of money... Well, if you are truly responsible, no you won't. But you will make enough to live better than comfortably."

By your terms, fantastic profits (or anything more than living just better than comfortably) and responsibility are mutually exclusive. You say nothing about corporate rascality, just that a certain level of wealth excludes the possibility of responsiblity.

It is ridiculous but definitely supports my inference that you dislike accumulations of wealth. And of course, your way leaves the question of what level of wealth is okay in the hands of... people like you.

I neglected to address the estate tax. Yes, I agree with your position. It's interesting you don't like "obscene" accumulations of wealth but also don't like taxes on those accumulations. You support people passing countless millions on, tax free? Good.

Anyway, I am fairly confident that you will post something eventually that will leave you scrambling to disavow your stated position on estate taxes. And if not, I'll be glad to be wrong on that point.

You are TOTALLY misreading what I said.

Totally.

If you decide to forget moral, not care about the environment, not care about culture and always go to the bottom line, you are going to make buku bucks... You're cutting corners and in cases like that, of course you are going to make hell of a lot more of profit. To do this is irresponsible however. You are putting profit above social and environmental responsibility. It is an obscene amount of money if you got it by methods which are less than kosher. No if, ands, or buts.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IF YOU ARE RICH. IF YOU GOT RICH BY NOT FOLLOWING SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES THEN THAT IS WRONG.

I'm not sure how much more I can make this concept any more basic. I'll try an analogy again.

You are selling beer that costs you a dollar to make. You sell the beer for two dollars. Mr Corrupt CEO thinks... "Hey... if we use reclaimed water from the sewer department, it will cost 25 cents to produce, yet we can still sell it for $2". Because Mr Corrupt want to make a $1.75 profit at the expense of the consumer, when he was still making a profit before making a change that hurts people, that is obscene. To want to make that much more money at the expense of someone or something else IS WRONG. Sure, you'll get that much more rich in a year- however if you were able to live on what you made before and the only way you are making even more is at the expense of something else around you:

THAT IS OBSCENE.

I never said you won't make a profit. I never said that being rich is bad.
I said making obscene amounts of money is bad.

Perhaps I should clarify my original statement:

Anyone who is making tons of money at the expense of culture, community, or environment is OBSCENE.

Money is not obscene. Some of the methods of how it can be accumulated or spent are.


"People like me"? What is that supposed to mean? You keep saying I am being hostile, and I don't like this and I don't like that when the whole tone of your posting seems to hostile? I could care less if you are rich or poor, so long as you have a good heart and are sound in moral judgement.

You started the post with "I hate" and the hostility sort of cascaded forth from there, like a pretty waterfall on a postcard.

I would submit that i TOTALLY did not misread what you originally said. much more likely is that you TOTALLY misstated what you were thinking, but i think your latest restatement pretty much acknowledges as much.

so: bad people are bad? thanks for clearing that up.

oh yes, i may be wrong but i believe the spelling is "beaucoup." anyway, i am pretty sure it is not buku.

Do you have stock in Wal-Mart or something?

I hate Wal-Mart.

I also hate watermelon. So what? What does that have to do with you personaly? Are you a living Wal-Mart store?

Do you have a personal relationship with Wal-Mart or does being pissy just make you feel better because I really am confused??!??

Also, thank you for correcting my slang. It's great to learn something new everyday! ;o)

"Are you a living Wal-Mart store?"

Are you propositioning me?

"I really am confused??!??"

Boy, there's a surprise.

Quoting your statement of hatred doesn't make me pissy. Puzzlement in the face of your hatred does not mean that I am a Wal-Mart lackey.

And now you hate watermelon? What did watermelon ever do to you? Why are you so hostile?

You're welcome for helping with the slang.

I stated why I hate wal-mart.

I hate watermelon because it tastes like crap. In both natural and fake.

I'm not hostile. There is nothing wrong with "hating" anything. Hating is a feeling, nothing more. It's how you act on those feelings.

I hate Wal-Mart but I would never burn one down. I would never hurt anyone who works there. I will do what I can to discourage people from shopping there. I won't shop there myself. I really hate Wal-Mart's practices and I believe them evil. That is not hostile. Hostile is when you are showing agression with a threat of harm. I hate walmart, but I would never hurt Wal-Mart in any physical way except in the pocketbook.

Going back to the watermelon...

YUCKY NASTY EW!!! *spits*

Fair enough. ;-)

I love watermelon and I like Wal-mart's prices and selection. I do not support all of their practices. The store we go to is neat and clean and the people are very nice - they always tell me how beautiful my children are.

I understand that in some environments they drive other stores out of business but the one we go to is the anchor of a large shopping center that wouldn't be there without the Wal-Mart draw, so I think it cuts both ways.

I totally understand hating the idea of Wal-Mart but the reality in our case is just about all positive.

SPICK! NIGGER! GOOK! RAGHEAD! KIKE!!!
Hey Victoria, Do you find any of these
terms offensive??? I find them ALL to be
deplorable,stereotypical,just plain old
mean terms that no self-respecting man
or woman would ever think of using as a
descriptive regarding those of another
racial or religous background.

So,with that said,why is it that you and
so many others feel it is OK to use the
term "White Trailer Trash"? This isn't
just as offensive? You would never ever
dream of calling a poor African American
"Black Trash" would you? I hope not and
really doubt it.Does the working class
caucasian frighten you? Or remind you of
where you could be(IE:Working in an old
dirty factory somewhere for 6 bucks an hr.)
w/o the benefits and blessings of a college
education? assuming you have one that is,and by
the general tone of your writing I'm guessing
that you do.Or does it remind you of where you
could maybe end up? Why do you feel that it's
OK to bash poor whites? Do you think that it's
any different than it is calling an Arab a
"camel jockey"? or calling Puerto Rican's "greasy
spicks"? What's the difference? There isn't
one.A stereotype is a stereotype is a
stereotype.Does it make your white liberal
guilt feel a little better? Or maybe it
justifies in your mind the use of racial
epithets about people of color since you
bash white folks too? Not everyone who
lives in a trailer park is a gap-toothed,
crystal meth shooting,truck driving,lice
ridden,Jerry Springer watching,welfare
collecting "hillbilly" ready to pimp out
the kids for parts for the GTO that is
sitting on blocks in the front yard of the
double wide.This is just as offensive as
tagging African Americans as all being a
bunch of crack dealing,watermelon eating,
basketball playing,break dancing,lazy ass
food stamp recipients,ready to rob and
rape you the moment you step out of the door.
Now don't take this more personal than you
have to because it's not just you I'm referring
to.I have seen the term used in Newsweek,TV Shows,
so called liberal weekly newspapers,my local media
and so on ad nauseum.But how is there any real
difference between stereotyping whites,than there
is in the stereotyping of any other color(s)of
human being? I'm very curious,enlighten me if you
please.

Ah Eric... you bring up another point that I was thinking about.

Wal-Mart where you are didn't drive out smaller places. Okay good... it fit a gap and a nitch in the community there.

Lets take a place that does have stores that serve it. Couldn't Wal-Mart instead perhaps work in partnership with these stores instead of driving them out? What if they became more like an "associate"... Kind of like what Amazon does but in reverse? That way they may be able to supply mom and pop with some of the goods that they cannot otherwise get easily... In return, they get a percentage of Mom and pop... Sure... not as much as if they drove mom and pop out of there... but they would get some never the less.

My wife likes Walmart, but I'm not a big fan. The store in our area always seems to be too damn chaotic. Good for them, I suppose.

Good point, H.W., and coincidentally:

I just posted on W and the Chimp name thing.

HW,

On a personal note... as I got older I became aware that names really don't affect me. I don't care- they're just name and maybe the other person is trying to insult by saying them but in the end, they are just that... words. The word c*unt used to be a fighting word with me. Then one day I woke up and realised... "Basically you are calling me name because you don't like me". That being said... let's go back to the level of what is expected and accepted on a daily communication level.

In a round about way... I think you might be seeing my point. "Poor white trash", "trailer trash", are also epithets in a way. HOWEVER, when you think of "trailer trash" or "poor white trash" you are thinking of the stereotype that you list. It is a stereotype. The difference is that when you use the term nigger, kike, etc... you are referring to a race as a whole. I cannot think of anywhere in western, English, language where there is something equally as offensive for whites... besides maybe "cracker".

If Wal-Mart is going to resort to using stereotypes, then at least use them all and not single anyone out please!!

Perhaps if Wal-Mart gets in the business of auto parts, we can have an ad with an Asian couple who barely speak English who are coming into Wal-Mart to save money on car parts since they are always smacking up the family car. (Stereotype in play here: Asians can't drive.)

As far as the rest of your post-

"...Does it make your white liberal
guilt feel a little better? Or maybe it
justifies in your mind the use of racial
epithets about people of color since you
bash white folks too?..."

Yes, I have a college education. I also have done my share of white collar and blue collar work. I tend to prefer blue collar because I like working with my hands and being outside... however the travel benefits I've had working white collar were nice too.

Yes. I am white.
Yes. I am black as well. ;)

As for "liberal guilt"... well I still have the guilt instilled in me from a Catholic upbringing and although now I am not a proponent of organized religion, I certainly never seemed to shake that concept of "guilt" out of my mind. Has nothing to do with race, however.

I've been called a nigger, a honky, and an oreo. I've gone to all black schools and all white schools. I can tell you first hand that racism is the same from both side of the tracks.

I am not putting down anyone of any race in my post. More what I am saying is what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you are going to show blacks in that light in an ad, then best you show the same kind of whites. Once again, when you refer to the term "ghetto" one almost exclusively thinks of blacks and in some aspects Hispanics. If you are referring to whites, people normally say "the trailer park". Is this right? Is this correct? Does this mean that everyone who comes from the ghetto or trailer park is bad? Absolutely not! Many blacks who hold powerful positions now came from the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago. I am sure the same can be said about some whites from the where the "poor whites live" (white gehtto... no we don't say that... we say "trailer park")

Don't worry... I didn't take your post personally nor was offended. It kind of amused me considering that I consider myself "mixed" since I have a white father and a black mother. My whole ideas on race are probably vastly different than the current mainstream.

As far as being a liberal... Why is it as soon as someone doesn't agree with one or more points that means they are a liberal? I'm independent. I pick and chose individually what my position is on certain points. When it comes to children, immigration,and language, I think you would find me extremely conservative.

Long live Independents. Victoria, you rock, but in going round and round with these guys (with all due respect to them), you're wasting your time. Trust me.

As for Wal-Mart: Don't shop there, never have, hopefully never will, proud of it.

What a condescending load of crap, Nat. Of course, were I as brilliant as you, I'd no doubt agree about the worthlessness of all who dare disagree with you, myself included.

I still don't understand. I'm skipping all of the rest of the comments, but I'm hung up on exactly what Wal-Mart did wrong. They were involved in a particular community and did a commercial about it. That community happened to be primarily populated by black people. And so you argue that Wal-Mart should seek out poor white communities and engage in similar projects and make similar commercials out of them to be "fair"? Am I reading that correctly?

You know, this really does become a racial issue, and as a white male, none of my comments are likely to be accepted, but I have repeatedly seen projects just like the one you describe in the Wal-mart commercial described in glowing terms on NPR and TV newsmagazines. I can't recall ever seeing a similar piece done on a "white" community. Maybe I missed them?

See, this is where you get into identity politics. Though my skin is light, I don't identify in the slightest least little bit with to sort of poor white people you insultingly refer to as "trailer trash," and I would simply think that Wal-mart was wasting their time being involved in any project designed to help them. A much higher percentage of black people will identify with the commercial you've described (based on the frequent coverage of similar events I've already mentioned).

More importantly, Wal-mart is already #1 with "trailer trash," and they're expanding closer and closer to inner cities, where the demographics trend to darker skin, so they want to counter the popular image that people who don't normally go to Wal-mart seem to have of a lily-white clientele. I can tell you for a fact that white people are in the minority at the Wal-marts nearest my house, but then I live in a racially diverse area. When people write articles espousing the idea that Wal-mart is all about "trailer trash," I don't think that it is accurate, but that's the image that spreads.

Chris, I didn't say that anyone was worthless and certainly not that I was brilliant. God knows I am not. It's a waste of time, IMO, because it only engenders nasty retorts such as yours. Where is the good in that? As for those who disagree with me, the few friendly participants I have found here run the gamut of political opinion, so that accusation of yours is the "load of crap." When in the world did you become so vicious?

Philip, I have many reasons for eschewing Wal-Mart, but tops on the list are its use of overseas sweatshop labor (while for years professing that the death blow it has dealt to many small businesses. Personally, I have seen no reason to see the enterprise as pigmentationist.

You know... the whole this is that as a whole, I don't think walmart is racist... nor is this really a race thing per say. This is more of an issue with feeding into stereotypes.

Wal-Mart is an equal opportunity company. The only color they really care about is green. The point is that the ads really aren't fair and do feed into stereotypes. Personally, I am sick of the stereotype that blacks come from bad neighborhoods. None of the chicks I went to high school with who were black and that I would hang out with came from these kinds of environments. Hell, they had more money than my parents did. (But I remember one of them was always trying to steal my boyfriend. I mean he WAS an adonis... I don't blame her... but still. BITCH! I digress here...)

"You know, this really does become a racial issue, and as a white male, none of my comments are likely to be accepted..."

"What I do hate however is when you question a race or racial stereotype we occasionally see this "poor persecuted white people" mentality. It's a cop out. "Poor me, what I have to say doesn't matter because I am a white male." By saying something like that, you yourself have made it a racial issue. So long as you make your points in an intelligent and thought out manner, your opinon is as valid as anyone elses.

Bullshit. Sorry but that is bullshit. Some people may be ignorant and feel that way but anyone with an ounce of sense knows not to pass a judgment like that unless they know that you are a card carrying member of the klu klux klan. It is wingeing. You haven't proven to me yet that you are a racist so why should you insult me by saying that I would discredit what you have to say without me even knowing you?

As far as projects being done for poor whites... I have seem some specials with that group that builds houses for impoverished people. I believe Jimmy Carter started the program though I might be wrong on that. Every time I see them asking for money, they are up somewhere in Appalachia. At the same time by saying that, you are proving my point. Poor people come from all over... Not just black people. However when a company decides to show it's altruistic side, they decide to show black people when every other ad has been of white people.

"A much higher percentage of black people will identify with the commercial you've described (based on the frequent coverage of similar events I've already mentioned)..."

Why? Because a higher percentage of black people come from the ghetto? On my mother's side which is black and native American, they are either farmers, or have successful businesses. They should identify more with the Black Wal-Mart commercial because it's set in the ghetto? Huh?

Once again, as a company, I am not saying that Wal-Mart is racist... hell no... Even if it were, they are too smart about buisness to piss off the black community... think of the lost revenue. By the same token, maybe they need to think a little harder at the messages it's media department is sending out.

I just noticed that my previous statement, addressed to Phillip, was fouled up. It is supposed to say, "I have many reasons for eschewing Wal-Mart, but tops on the list are its use of overseas sweatshop labor (while for years professing that its products were Made in America) and the death blow it has dealt to many small businesses. Personally, I have seen no reason to see the enterprise as pigmentationist."

Nat, okay. We can just chalk this one up to a bad exchange.

But how come you praise Victoria? She mentioned "hate," she called me pissy, she likened me to a living Wal-Mart (I don't know what that means, but it sounds negative to me), and made the unfortunate trailer trash reference (which she did address). These things are no big deal, but they are at least as inflammatory and/or vicious as anything I did--but you choose to give her a pass and call me "nasty."

Your blanket endorsement of her and blanket dismissal of me was inconsistent and unnecessary. "Load of crap" was not my finest rheotorical moment, but I still object to your assessment.

Not only that, but the Victoria-Chris debate had wrapped up on amicable terms around post #19.

I didn't liken you to a living wal-mart!

I asked if you were a living wal-mart because you got so upset with me hating wal-mart!!

If you personally were a wal-mart store, I could understand that. Being that you are a human being, I could not understand why my hate of wal-mart would affect you so!

Oh... get off the PC B.S.

All that stuff that you were taught that hate is a bad thing is exactly that... BS. Hate is a feeling like love, happiness, depression, etc... there is a reason why we have these emotions. It's part of being human. The wrong part come when we act inappropreately because of our feelings i.e. killing someone because we hate them.

Actions are what can be evil or kind. Feelings are just feelings.

VP: As I said, those things you said were "no big deal," (Comment 32) and the things I wrote were also no big deal, yet another BC felt the need to attack me and not you. That comment (32) had nothing to do with you.

I'd kind of like being a living Wal-Mart, especially if it was one that had a grocery store in it. I'd never have to go anywhere.

But yes, I must confess, I am Mr. PC. I'm offended... by everything, including myself.

But yes, I must confess, I am Mr. PC. I'm offended... by everything, including myself.

Awww, Chris... you need to spend a weekend with me in Amsterdam... I cure you of that. And don't worry, I won't suggest anything that would be illegal. ;o)

Chris, I was not referring to your squabble with Victoria. I was referring to your viciousness toward me.

As for VP's "hate," she hates an inanimate entity. BFD.

Victoria,

You ignorant slut.

Call me Arabian, but I am deeply, deeply offended by everything you wrote, plus a few things you didn't but for which I blame you anyway.

It is obvious from your demented words that you hate America, hate capitalism, hate war, hate money, hate the chimp and hate everything else that is good and decent in this world. Plus you hate Wal-Mart.

Call me a Prissy Chris, but my delicate sensibilities have been nearly shattered by your evil, evil thoughts, which if I had my way would be defined as hate crimes, and would be punishable by law. I am so devastated with offense at your politically incorrect words that I can barely type these.

You whore.

(Now can I spend a weekend in Amsterdam with you?)

ROFLMAO!!!

*tears*

=)

let's see, brian: you dedicate two days of your blog and a kiss of Atrios' ass to me, you have an ongoing and disturbingly public crush on my name, you scour months-old BC archives just for me, and now--on a Saturday night in LA, no less--you honor a few of my throwaway comments with the full satire treatment? what's next--are you planning to boil a pet rabbit on my stove? i guess i'll be flattered if the nausea ever passes.

Chris: Anyway, many of the anti-Wal-Mart people are also anti-small business

What earthly basis do you have for that claim?

And as for your last post, do you even have a pet rabbit?

here on earth, i have met many anti-Wal-Mart people who also despise small business owners (and favor policies that harm small businesses), along with almost anyone of affluence. that was my earthly basis.

and if you re-read the other comment that you reference, you will see that i merely refer to "a" pet rabbit, without specifying ownership, so your question seeks irrelevant information.

thank you for stopping by.

Brian, Comment 38: Spot on. Brilliant!