I would like to happily report that while out at lunch picking up the "new" Beatles album, I saw not a single person even touch Spears' new album, let alone buy it. Sadly, however, I was also the only person buying Let It Be . . . Naked. Everyone else was buying Lord Of The Rings: The Two Towers.

. . . Naked sounds fantastic, however.

I touched it...I mean, sure...doesn't everybody...I mean, once in a while is healthy, right?

these are two towers of a different sort

Britney Spears? What a joke! The pure lack of talent is obvious with her push for shock value in doing nude photo shoots, etc., signifying a frantic and panicked attempt to keep a dying, short lived(there is a God), and undeserving career alive. Doesn't anyone else out there understand she just can't sing? Her voice stinks..plain and simple!

Britney Spears, shock value? I can't imagine that. Vic, you are funny! Where do you come up with this stuff? Artistes like Britney do not need "shock value."

I am always amused by so called "critics" like Mr Olsen. It is so fashionable for critics to say of Madonna that she has no talent or does not have a great voice but has lasted this long because of self promotion and reinvention. I think even a chimpanzee who we know are atleast 1% less intelligent than humans, would be able to deduce that to last as long, Madonna must have some substance to what it is she is promoting and reinventing.

Pick a choirister, put them in a gown and give them a Diane warren song, they could be any of the so called great voices in pop today. Madonna may not have the best voice but she can sing and carry a tune, more importantly, she is a talented song writer/producer and her creativity evidenced by this reinvention we applaud is a talent on its own. Beatles? Look at thier lyrics..nursery rhymes if anything, yet they are eulogised. It never ceases to amuse how so called critics hate to give Madonna any credit for her actual art simply because the woman has had to be brazen and ballsy to get her way in this male dominated world.
The proof is in the eating of the pudding. 20yrs on the new and old generation are still singing Like a Virgin and Like a Prayer songs Madonna has not promoted in so long, her influence is seen all the way through new singers. The work speaks for itself. Variety of musical styles to penning poignant lyrics in Live to tell and Like a Prayer. Keep on selling your "opinion" to the public, its just that, because there is no qualification that critics attain. Its thier opinions and everybody gets to have one.

Beatles? Look at thier lyrics..nursery rhymes if anything, yet they are eulogised.

Sorry, but any point you were attempting to make has been negated by this incredibly stupid remark.

Madonna may not have the best voice but she can sing and carry a tune, more importantly, she is a talented song writer/producer and her creativity evidenced by this reinvention we applaud is a talent on its own.

Let's not forget that all of her successful "reinventions" are helmed by great producers - Patrick Warren, William Orbit, etc. Madonna finds who and what she needs to form a packageable identity. I have long maintained that Madonna is nothing more than the Microsoft of music: she finds something that she likes and she "borrows" it or buys it to use as her own.

Why are old Madonna songs popular today? Nostalgia, just like many other songs from the period. And some of them are actually great songs - unfortunately not written by her. "Live To Tell" is a gorgeous song, but guess who wrote it? Patrick Warren.

"Nursery rhymes" . . . you're a funny person, Sandra! Thanks for visiting, please play again!

In fifteen years, when Madonna's had so many face lifts she sports a goatee, will we still have this conversation?

probably not.

we will still be talkin' about the Dixie Chicks tho...

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with them.

What absolutely floors me (look away from your computer and see me down there) is that I just spent an entire 1200 word aritcle PRAISING Madonna, and I am still lumped in with the "critics who blah blah blah" about her.

Sandra - did you even READ the actual article? I was praising her for making the most of modest natural talent, not putting her down, and went on and on like a giddy little girl about how great she is.

And then there is the part about the Beatles - that was absurd.

Tom my friend, it's Patrick Leonard, but I get the point. While Madonna has almost always collaborated, she has chosen her collaborators very well and has brought out the best in them as much as they have brought out the best in her. Madonna should never be underestimated, in my opinion. But the Beatles she is not.

Tom, I think its a moot point to anybody with a brain. Your post is precisely what I am talking about. PATRICK LEONARD is the co-writer of Live to Tell not sole writer and Madonna penned Like a prayer.

You talk about Producers. Were these producers in their wombs when Madonna found them? Did they not exist making music before Madonna collaborated with them? More importantly, why is it that in almost every occassion you find that other works by producers Madonna has worked with do not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as what they have worked with Madonna on. Look at Pink's "feel good" with Orbit. A catastrophe. Look at other Leonard works, not all of which bear any notice. Music cannot be made without Collaboration, like ALL the producers who have worked with her, they said she has a nack of coming up with melodies in a nanosecond, She brings her talent, they bring thiers and more often than not classical pop songs are made. Did the Beatles not have producers? Did Michael jackson not have producers? How many musicians go without producers? Why is all the credit not given to those producers? Precisely my point. Because people like you are too afraid to give Madonna any credit for whatever internal twisted reason. Its your own demon and I could care less about your battle.

With regards to not talking about madonna, please, dont make me laugh. This was said in 1985 and here we are today. Get over it! She will be talked about forever long after you are gone without a trace.

Plus, it only shows your class of person when you think I am incredinly stupid cos I have no respect for most Beatles Lyrics. I believe if English is your first language, a reading of the majority of Beatles Lyrics cant possibly leave you fascinated but then again, Americans, just like Madonna herself are fascinated by anything British and are unable to see the forest for the trees fogging up thier heads. You are the village idiot if what you can come up with is that Madonna relies on producers, then you know little or nothing about music and you require not only English lessons but general knowledge lessons as well. Why would I play with you? You have no mental ammunition.

I did read your article in its entirety Eric. If that article is praise to you, then God help us when you do criticise. By the way, what qualifies you to judge talent? It was only that comment in your article I questioned. I do not think Madonna has "modest" talent. Thats what all the same old boring critics use when they have to begrudgingly give credit to her. I do not say she is the most talented person out there but her talent is far more than modest and you know that. So qualifying it as "modest" is precisely what lumps you in the same category as the other ignorant critics. I never said she was the Beatles. Personally, I think the Beatles are Overrated but thats just my opinion. The only reason I mentioned them is because they are grossly overrated and madonna is grossly underrated. Thank you for pointing out to Tom that he had no clue what he was talking about from the get go since he had no idea who even wrote the song. I must have been typing my thesis as you posted:)

I appreciate you responding but my point still remains. I am neither here nor there with Britney but I do not think she is a "no talent" However, you saying that Britney and Madonna's natural gifts are the same does not leave me with the impression that you are well informed. I am happy that you acknowledged that her collaborations are a give and take unlike our friend Tom who clearly is clueless about music.

We can go on and on, but I maintain, that if Madonna's career belonged to a man or somebody less media savvy than Madonna, we would hear little or nothing about producers or co-writers(afterall, when was the last time Aretha penned a song?). The credit would be given to the Artist but because it is Madonna, the credit is given to anybody but the Artiste herself. Aretha, Mariah, Whitney have great voices but so does the woman in my church. Madonna has a good enough voice, is the supreme entertainer and writes/co writes, produces/co-produces her materials and is not afraid to challenge herself or go into music genres that are not currently mainstream but make them popular, just like this new electro pop craze. She is creative and her variety is impressive.

It would be nice if every once in a while, somebody gave her credit for her body of work, rather than rant on and on about reinvention and promotion. If she had nothing to work with she would have been a goner like the rest of the 80's folk.

I did give her credit for all of that AND self-promotion. I also said she changed the world - how much credit does she need?

Patrick Leonard . . . sorry. Change the name, the rest of what I said remains the same.

I do very much have a clue what I'm talking about. You just caught me on a bad day, Ms. Sandra. I'm very, very tired, I should have caught that and didn't. Patrick Warren, by the way, is a session keyboardist. He plays on Aimee Mann's fantastic Lost In Space, among dozens of other albums.

Anyway, yes, Patrick Leonard wrote the music, which goes without saying is what forms the memorable melody. If you really want to hear what a great song this is, skip Madonna's version and check out jazz guitarist Bill Frisell's take, featured on Have a Little Faith in Me.

I'd be able to take Madonna seriously as an "artiste" if she didn't take advantage of every opportunity for publicity to do something "shocking." Let's face it, the days of Madonna really being shocking are long gone. Now it's just pathetic attempt after pathetic attempt to stay on top. Every time her career starts flagging she pulls out some maneuver that gets everyone talking about her and reinvigorates interest in her music. That's not art, Sandra, that's marketing. I never said she wasn't good at marketing herself, and I indeed give her credit for being able to keep it up. But art is is not.

At least the maxim "no matter how appalling a performer is, their fans are worse" remains true.

All I hope for is that Britney doesn't make as many horrid movies as Mags has (who should stick to kiddie's books for her vanity press, they're easier to ignore).

The only Madonna record I own is Cicconne Youth "Into the Groovy", does the rest of her stuff sound like that?

Laughing out loud Eric. So, you are funny? :) I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on what exactly your "1200" word article conveyed. I certainly did not get what you say you conveyed but its okay. To each his/her own. We all have our opinions. I shall visit your site more often. Only heard of it today
( as usual;) a mention of Madonna whether good or bad often brings recognition to many people or things:) and if you respond to people's opinions on what you have to say, you can't be all bad;) I think its time to log off now. I must find food, the internet makes me hungry.

Tom, you have proved my point about your nonsensical point/opinion that nothing more need be said. By this simple statement of yours "I would have taken Madonna seriously as an Artist if she did not cease any opportunity for publicity" or something to that effect. Haha..you've proved my point. So, if she lived in Idaho and only came out at night, the body of work would be good enough for you? Oh crikey! Like, I said, English lessons sweetie. I think you have entertained me long enough with your own special brand of dumbness.

Jonathan, your ignorance is overwhelming and for that reason alone your application of that maxim towards me holds no weight whatsoever. Enjoy!

Untangling the various threads, Madonna is the most important female recording artist of the last 20 years. No one else is close. Her two greatest hits albums stand up to most anything recorded over that time. I believe her self-marketing has not always been to her advantage as as many people, especially hard core music fans, have not taken her seriously as a result. This is unfortunate. She is still not the Beatles however, or even close musically, although her cultural impact is at least in the same universe. I meant it as the ultimate compliment to compare Britney to Madonna, and although she isn't close yet, she is only 21 and may surprise people.

Isn't Ciccone Youth the Butthole Surfers? No, not much similarity.

Thanks for reading Sandra, we are happy to have you visit.

So, if she lived in Idaho and only came out at night, the body of work would be good enough for you?

No, actually, I'm not into her kind of music, period. I wouldn't like it whether she was as genuine as they come or as she is now. I'd prefer it if she wasn't in the media all the time, however. You do realize that media attention does not solely indicate an artist's merit, right? Were we to take Madonna solely on musical terms, we would have an artist today who would have a small, dedicated fanbase and a handful of great songs from the 80s. Madonna is what and where she is today because of her shrewd (and shameless) marketing skills, not because of her music. Madonna's talent is knowing how to get people to take notice of her. Guess what? It works - here we are discussing her. And I don't even like her music.

On a side note, why is it that when some people are backed against a wall and can't defend their argument they suddenly resort to attacking a person's grammar skills?

Tom, I think I have more than backed up my argument. What was your argument to prove the poignancy of Beatles lyrics when you called me incredibly stupid? It is that very nostalgia you credit as the reason for the timelessness of Madonna songs that I credit with the existense of Beatles fans, so you see, opinions can differ.

Madonna is still around because of her music. Plus, if you think Madonna has a small "fanbase" then you are even more deluded than it appears. You must live on another planet because for the last two years Madonna in the media has just been Madonna backlash, so how on earth is that a good thing for her? Everything she has done has been savaged, and quite honestly there's not too much wrong with her new LP but it was massacred and that fanbase of hers still allowed it to sell millions worldwide. The good work you do will live on after you is the moral lesson there:) Is it her resilience inspite of people like you that irks you? It must be. I'm sure even Eric can attest to the fact that the press have been having a field day with Madonna more viciously than in the past.

It is impossible dear Tom, bless your cotton socks, to market something that is rubbish for 20 years. It is simply impossible. Its not your type of music and I respect that and it shows exactly why you know nothing on the matter. I dont like Aimee Mann's music either, it is too morose and they almost always sound the same..like a dirge, but that's my opinion and she does have one that I like. You do realise that music does not have to be "non commercial"/not very successful and very morose before it is considered good music?

Madonna has nothing to be ashamed of with regards to marketing herself. Look at Prince/Jackson/George Michael and all her contemporaries..look at thier squabbles with thier record companies. If the woman did not stand up for herself nobody would have.

Dear Tom, when people slide in "The Immaculate Collection" or GHV2 or Music or ray of Light, Like a prayer, you name it..they do not slide it in thier Cd players because Madonna kissed Britney spears at the MTV awards, they slide it in because they like the music and want to listen to it. The very same reason you like the Beatles who were marketed no end and even told to keep thier love lives a secret so as not to alienate female fans, they were to pose as charming British lotharios to increase the female fanbase in America and everywhere, bliv it or not, shock! horror! sorry to ruin your childhood dreams they were sometimes also told what to wear. Yes! Its the business. The nature of the beast. But you like thier music cos of what they sing not cos of what they wore or if they were on the cover of the rollingstones or if John Lennon used his relationship with Yoko to promote his songs(which as a solo artist had far more decent lyrics)..you play it cos you like it.

It would portray you as atleast moserately sensible if you afforded Madonna and her fans that same recognition to know that when her music is played and Cds bought, it might just be cos we like the darn record.

Its almost midnight in the UK. I must truly log off now and get my beauty sleep, but everyday you learn something and Tom you should learn that because you do not like Madonna and her public image, it does not make her a no talent. Calling Madonna talentless means you are either deaf or blind or you have flown over the cuckoos nest. You dont have to like her music or her but give credit where it is due and if you cant do that, then daft excessive derogatory remarks about her Art only show that you care a bit more about her existense than you care to admit. You are welcome to YOUR life. Surely, I have written more than "1200" words in less than 2 hrs?;)

That Ciccone girl is just another sad case of a child whose mother died when it was young, and who has subsequently spent all its life trying to get love from the rest of the world. Her marketing strategy was, and always will be, the same: 1)Let them think they have the biggest, and you are dying for it [basic rule of prostitution] 2) Shock and taboo ... but not too, too much. Just a mild jolt. Let 'em think you are kinda rebellious, like James Dean, like Elvis, like the Ronettes. For example, with "Like a Prayer", the masses knew she was not seriously dating someone of another race...it was just for shock to sell the records. 3) Never stay out of the media for too long. Make a bad movie, put out a greatest hits collection, pretend to be dating a Lesbian, announce that the father of your baby is a Latino personal trainer you picked up jogging one day out in Central Park, but make SURE you don't stay out of the headlines too long.

I would "slide in" my CD player the soundtrack to an AT&T commercial before I would listen to than anything by that Ciccone person.

The art of the scam is what she is remarkably good at. Nows she's done it to the publishing industry. Very talented huckster. An artist? A musician? As has been pointed out, she did not write any of her big hits. She does not play any musical instruments. Did she write the hooks? I don't know that. Often in recording studios, if a person adds one word to a lyric, they get a co-writing credit. Sometimes they finish off a bit of melody, and also get a writing credit. Perhaps the Ciccone person did this at her sessions. Does that make her the most imporant female recording artist of the 20th century? Urghh. I will say this. She snookered a lot of people into buying her lame, sing-songy lightweight elevator music. If she did not write the hooks, she is still a very good hooker. She sure looks the part.

Ooh, thanks for the Britney article Eric.

I'll touch the CD sometime this weekend, while I'd love to have been at the store at 8am this morning waiting for the first package to be opened, I just don't have the time to do that like in my younger days. Have to have my guilty pleasures.

I might go pick up that 2004 calender while I'm at it. Nice.

Oh and interesting article, Madonna isn't given enough credit, but her recent stuff have sucked though.

Oh and I should go pick up The Strokes album too, just to cover my ass.

Gioconda..Those in the know have been pointing out that she did write or co write most of her songs and big hits but people like you can never be removed from your stance no matter what. You deserve the crown on your head. Stupidity wears a crown and it is planted on your head. Having skimmed through your post, could not read it word for word cos it seemed like drivel from the get go, I see that you need help. Even a forklift could not remove your well deserved crown..and pls dont tar the rest of the world with your brush.

She has sold almost 200million Albums over 20 years and because you are a dimwit and can be "snookered" into buying records, do not accuse the rest of the world of doing so. Its amazing how you can't see how daft and pathetic you sound. I think thats what is even worse. All that comes out is that you don't like Madonna and once a person is unable to impartially judge something and has to resort into crapulence due to dislike, everything you say is rubbish if it wasn't already rubbish to start with. You seem to have the brain of a four year old and the four year old was even happy to be rid of it. Judging by your post I can see why. You are even worse than Tom who made feeble attempts to have a point, you have just spewed unwarranted hatred from your post, and its time you took your medication and stepped away from the computer. You cant survive much longer with an underdeveloped brain.

Vis, glad you liked it, thanks!

Ok, I like some Madonna songs. She has a career that should be respected. Like everyone else there have been high points and low points (Body of Evidence.) Overall she has been nothing but a success. She is to be respected for that.

BUT, if you are going to sit there and tell ME that she is UNBELIEVABLY talented you are blinded by your love. What kind of music does Madonna play? That's right she is a POP STAR. While every kind of band or artist relies on marketing to get people to buy their albums, POP STARS rely on a different type of marketing because they generally don't build an audience based on touring small clubs the way bands do. They need a bigger company with some sort of marketing machine to get them going. Then the flair of the performer either takes it to the next level or it doesn't. Madonna has been able to take it to the next level every time. But, to think that she is some endless pool of musical talent and ability is just dumb. Her singing range is nothing to write home about. Her dancing is good, but what popstar do you know who can't dance? So that brings us to the songwriting. I can't remember who said it above, but they were right about how people get co-writing credits for very minimal things.

Last time I checked Madonna doesn't play an instrument, so how did she write all those big hits again? I don't remember too many Madonna songs being A Capella. I must have missed that album.

Lastly, I will again say that Madonna should be recognized for her great big career. I just can't sit there and take people saying that she is disrespected for giving the truth. She practically owns MTV. They drool all over her whenever she is WILLING to come on one of their awards shows, etc. That's fine because she helped establish them with her many videos. She is NOT underrated and she has been more of a marketing success than a musical success.

Here are some of her non-musical promotion techniques.

She did the most racy performances in the history of MTV awards shows. Sure she was performing songs, but people were only interested because she was groping herself on television. She has done a bunch of movie soundtracks that made her very famous. She has played up relationships with Dennis Rodman, Jose Canseco, Warren Beatty, among others. She did a whole dirty sex book and the movie Body of Evidence.

Finally, I will leave you with this quote I dug up from the woman herself. SHE even knows it isn't all about the music.

On being asked whether her Catholic upbringing had caused her any worries about losing her virginity, Madonna replied "Oh, no, I considered it a career move."

All pretty fair and reasonable Craig, except all research i have done indicates she has written most of her own lyrics, and contributed basic melodies for many of her songs, the collaborators flesh it out, but she is there coming up with basic ideas. This is not to be minimized.

Sandra, you must be #1 on the Madonna fan club, you go girl! :)

Seriously, I liked Madonna's early recordings. I haven't listened to her stuff since though. That isn't a slam on her, it just means I haven't been all that compelled to go listen. What good material have I missed out on, Sandra? I'll go check it out on one of the music services I subscribe to currently.

I've never listened much at all to Britney, so I know that I'm in the minority on her music. What songs/CDs should I be listening to of hers? Please someone in the know give me some good suggestions / recommendations on this artist. Thanks.

TD, the three songs I mention in he article are by far the best on Britney's new album. I like pretty much everything on either of Madonna's greatest hits colections; "The Immaculate Collection" and "GHV2"

I have a friend who likes to torture me with Britney's song Soda Pop. There are plenty of songs by Britney which are ok, but avoid Soda Pop like the plague. It is evil.

As for Madonna, I am a sucker for cheesy ballads so I choose Crazy for You. The rest of Madonna is pretty good, but I really love that one. I could live without ever hearing Holiday ever again, but the track from the Austin Powers movie was pretty good. As cheesy as it is, I also like the song from A League of Their Own, "This Used to be my Playground" and the one from With Honors, "I'll Remember."

ooh, give me the upbeat dance classics - like "Holiday" - over the ballads

That's right, Madonna is against the legal online music distribution scene, isn't she?

Not much of her music is available at the online music services yet: Rhapsody (The Early Years and The Early Years: Give it to me), Napster (The tracks: American Life, Music, Goodbye to Innocence and Me Against The Music w/ Britney are available), iTunes (pretty much solely pushing her audiobooks: Mr. Peabody's Apples and The English Roses).

Add her to the list with AC DC and the Beatles.

It doesn't seem like Britney feels this way though, as there are quite a few songs available from her.

"I liked her early stuff... Borderline... when she hit that Papa Don't Preach phase, I tuned out."

-- Mr. Blue, the appropriately least appreciated Reservoir Dog

"Papa Don't Preach" is one of the few she didn't have a hand in writing:

"Papa don't preach"?

"Bitch, use birth control."

I heard Madonna plays guitar these days, but I haven't seen it myself. I'm with Mr. Blue on this one.

The Day the Music Died? When her cover was released.

It's not, um, great, not sure what the purpose of that one was. No one is infallible

Craig, Eric who has done the RESEARCH has told you the facts regarding the songwriting. You either believe it or you don't. What you think is neither here nor there in the broad span of things. I never said she was an unbelievable well of talent. Grading of talent is subjective so its pointless to start an argument on that. Suffice to say she is a talented woman as far as her work shows and not just moderately.

As far as playing in clubs its the funniest thing is it not? I find that pop music critics always denigrate pop stars bcos of this so called "playing in clubs" business and that school of thought is even more fake than you guys claim the pop stars are. What does it matter if you played in clubs for 19 years? If at the end of the day its bad music, it will remain bad music and the fact that Miss X got a record deal cos she is pretty and you did not and had to play your music in clubs, does not make your music any better than miss x..the music should be judged by the music itself and not surrounding circumstances. People who judge by surrounding matters have no clue in my opinion.

As a matter of fact, Madonna did play in clubs..she was in a band or two, she used to play the drums(not that playing an instrument suddenly makes your song, lyrically or musically better than the person who plays no instrument) Are all Aretha Franklin songs damned because she plays no instrument or did not write almost all of them? Madonna wanted to be up front and stopped playing the drums. Let us all remember that musical instruments are things people can learn to do. If she played the Piano tomorrow what difference would it make?! You dont need a 5 octave range before you can be called a good singer. Any pop star can dance, any choirister can sing..not all pop stars are Madonna, not all choiristers are Aguilera, so your point about voices is lost on me..Macy Gray would be thrown out by a vocal coach but she sings great songs) Sing with feeling, carry the tune..I am not fascinated by people who sing in all sorts of keys and decibels just to show me thier vast vocal range, most times it even ruins the song( Tori Amos is a clear example..covering Live to Tell in her concerts..its just not the same classic it sounds like when Madonna sings it) Give me a Macy, Madonna or Tracy Chapman anyday with a good song with good beats and I am fine. I don't need Mariah shattering glass for me to like a song penned by diane warren. She could have given it to anybody who could carry a tune and I would still like it as long as it is produced to my tastes in music.

As far as performances..its what we call the whole package my friend. I think its impossible to attend a Madonna concert and not come out feeling inspired, fascinated, and just generally pleased. Its a whole show, its a concert, what would be the point of just standing on stage and singing? I might as well listen to the audio..I go to see a show and Madonna always delivers be it controversial or not. Musically and for sheer entertainment value I think La Ciccone-Ritchie is very talented and does a darn great job which is precisely why she is still a relevant topic today and precisely why she is as successful as she is..like the lady herself said a decade plus ago" I have sold over a 100 million Albums, I don't need to prove anything to anybody, I will make Albums that challenge me and interest me" We now know she has gone on to sell almost 200 mill..and the sales do not necessarily mean that she is talented but I think it is almost impossible to look at Madonna's body of work musically see the music styles changing, the lyrics becoming better and not think this is an artist in every sense of the word and that includes all the reinvention and marketing you point out as if they are bad things..

Madonna now plays the guitar as a matter of fact..she is no Dolores Oriordan from the Cranberries but she is learning and plays a bit on the new Album. She even played the guitar for most of the time during her live gig in HMV London..made a mistake during one of the songs, apologised and started all over again with not a tint of embarassment in her face..thats Madonna for ya..confident to boot. An Artist not afraid to grow, keep learning and trying different things and taking risks in the face of unjustified criticism most times..

I have been a Madonna fan all my life and its not like I like every song she has ever sung but what makes her even more special is that she could not care less what her critics have to say and I admire that. She will express herself however and whichever way she chooses..and more often than not, does it beautifully..whats not to admire there?

Hey Tdavid..I have no idea where you tuned out..hahaha..Nineties or in the Papa dont Preach phase like somebody else did? Mind you, how anyone can tune out in the Papa dont Preach phase is a mystery considering the Like A prayer Album came after that..not a good time to tune out:)

I have no idea what to suggest..I will start early nineties and probably miss out lots but these are just my thots on what you should check out in that period..there is not much wrong with the Erotica Album but it was savaged once again bcos of the backlash from her explicit book..as usual if the music was judged on its merit..it would take a tone deaf person to savage it..you can check out that Album..though there are two songs I dislike on it ( Why's it so hard and another called Thief of hearts)..the rest of the Album is good..then we have Bedtime Stories, which is also good except for the actual title track which is horrendous and what I call Bjorks attempt to ruin Madonna(hahahaha..cos she wrote the song) but any Album with Take a bow..deserves a listen and the rest of it is pretty good..follow up to take a bow is "you'll see" from her "something to remember" ballad collection, for you ballad lovers which is just a superb song..This used to be my playgrnd, I'll remember..now those are great tracks and they show you don't need 8 octaves to sing a great ballad...Ray of Light track itself, I dislike but the rest of the Album is great particularly Frozen and Paradise not for me Then there's Music and the entire Album is great. There is the new Album. Ignore the critics that Album has some so/so songs but it has songs like Nothing fails and Intervention that can stand shoulder to shoulder with any of her classics..and Love Profusion is the catchiest thing I have heard in years..the new rock version on the forthcoming remix is even more spectacular. I think I have overdone your request..but check out some of her new stuff on the net or wherever you can, you might find you want to own some of'em:)must stop before Eric accuses me of using his site to advertise Madonna's music;):)

I think it's more than coincidence that this entry was posted on the anniversary of Jonestown.

"the music should be judged by the music itself and not surrounding circumstances. People who judge by surrounding matters have no clue in my opinion."

Out of one side of your mouth you say getting a contract because a popstar is pretty is ok, and then say judging on "outside factors" (like being pretty?) makes someone clueless? Maybe you should outline your thoughts before the diarrhea starts flowing from the orifice below your nose.

"As a matter of fact, Madonna did play in clubs..she was in a band or two, she used to play the drums(not that playing an instrument suddenly makes your song, lyrically or musically better than the person who plays no instrument)"

I forgot that Madonna became famous because of her drumming. Thanks for reminding me. Playing an instrument doesn't make your song "better" but it helps determine where the credit for success should be distributed in a person's career.

"Are all Aretha Franklin songs damned because she plays no instrument or did not write almost all of them?"

She has the vocal talent that we are talking about that Miss Spears and Madonna do not have.

"(Tori Amos is a clear example..covering Live to Tell in her concerts..its just not the same classic it sounds like when Madonna sings it)"

Are you serious? Maybe Tori should get a troupe of dancers and one of those trite headset microphones. And maybe she should lip synch the song. Would you like it then?

Here's the deal. Madonna is a great popstar. She has withstood the test of time and I even like some of her songs. She will be regarded as one of the biggest artists in music history, but she will never be regarded the way the Beatles are because that is silly. The whole dynamic of a band producing and playing live vs. the pop show with the dancers, the ridiculous stages, etc. You say that bands that play in clubs for 19 years suck. I would say on the contrary because they have been able to play shows for that long without all the additional show help (dancers etc.) which does nothing but draw attention away from the music, that they should be more proud. I have no doubt that a big company can make almost any one of us into a pop star. I feel like I could be a number one rapper with Dr. Dre doing beats and samples for me. Sure it also takes marketing to get a band going big, but don't tell me you can give Madonna as much credit for her body of work as you can to the Beatles who wrote every single note of their albums and probably had played COMPLETE versions of them before bringing in the billion dollar production treatment.

Fuck it. You will never be able to get through to a superfan who is blinded by their love of an artist.

Craig how can you so deliberately misunderstood my post? Perhaps not actually. I fear that the answer lies in your formative years. English summary and comprehension was the class you kept skipping to go off for some intake of hallucinogenic stuff which is the cause of your inability to understand anything. At this rate, you wouldn't know talent if it slapped you in the face, sat on your face and released methane gas. Either way, I think I would rather be boiled in oil, tarred and feathered than attempt to actually have a debate or discuss the matter with you any longer as I have previously. Keep cloaking yourself in ignorance, I think i have said even more than enough to you.

misunderstood to misunderstand....thinking one thing..writing another:) It happens to those of us who can think and actually have facts instead of making assumptions on probabilities.

There is no doubt in my mind that Madonna ranks well above Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, Leo Sayer, Cinderella, Cyndi Lauper, Britney and most other acts in the annals of pop history. The longevity of her career is astounding. To remain as popular as she has for two-plus decades indicates that she possesses an exceptional gift.

But to compare Papa Don't Preach to The Long and Winding Road, or Like A Virgin to Let It Be is the absolute height of absurdity. Calling the lyrics of the Beatles "nursery rhymes" while extolling the poetic virtuosity of Madonna is similar to denigrating the work of Einstein while pointing out the wonders of a sharpened stick.

I love it! I ask again, what is it with the tendency for some people, when backed against a wall, to resort to childish (and hypocritical) attacks on the others' grammatical skills.

By the way, Ms. Sandra, I checked the credits of my copy of Bill Frisell's Have A Little Faith In Me last night, which contains his amazing cover of "Live To Tell." It is credited to one Patrick Leonard. Not Madonna. She had nothing to do with the writing of the music, only the lyrics. Why is that important? Because it's the music that grabbed everyone, not just her lyrics.

Haven't you noticed, Tom, that Ms. Smallson's grammar be perfect in every way?

what struck me as odd was the spelling of the word "thier," which I have always assumed was spelled "their."

Actually, Eric, that's what you were taught, if you went to skule on the same planet I did. Time to relearn everything!

"bcos"

not that we're perfect or anything

Sandra, we wouldn't make an assumption based upon probabilities. We would make a presumption. While you might have attended your "English summary and comprehension" classes, I can only surmise that you were too busy taunting your male classmates, instead of paying attention. But nevermind that. As Tom has pointed out, it is improper to point out grammatical deficiencies in those to whom access to a decent education has been denied. As for Madonna, she has had the power of personality and business savvy to maintain her career. She has used borderline soft porn to keep herself in the media spotlight. As for raw talent, her backup singers, Donna DeLory and Niki Harris, were far more blessed.

Go for it, Sandra. You're doing a great job keeping these guys on their toes. But I have to tell you, I would be boiled in oil, tarred and feathered, and forced to watch reruns of Laverne and Shirley for two -- make that three -- weeks before I would plunk down my money on a Madonna album.

No, but don't tell me I "deliberately" misunderstand your post and then not tell me why. Maybe I completely misunderstood, but unless I am on some quest for ignorance, I wouldn't deliberately misunderstand anything. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I like to think of myself as objective. I like some Madonna songs, but I can't ignore the fact that pop music has and always will occupy a bit of a different space than some of the great rock and roll bands of all time. It's a fact of how it is created and marketed. If I hum tunes all day at The Neptunes and they make it sound fat as all hell, how much credit do I deserve? What if I sang a line and they put 10,000 layers of effects on it, am I to be compared to Aretha Franklin?

I'd be boiled in blessed cotton socks before I would compare Madonna to the Beatles, but I still like her.

Comparing Madonna to either Britney or the Beatles is unfair to Madonna. Britney doesn't begin to challenge Madonna, unless Ms. Spears survives another twenty years, and the comparison of just about any artist to the Beatles is ridiculous. The only pop artist I can think of (without putting too much thought into it) with whom a comparison is fair would be Stevie Nicks.

Both have considerable talents while not being virtuosos, both have had long, fruitful careers, and both have become icons within their fan base. Nicks started out with a bang, and has maintained her popularity by reinventing herself from time to time. Stevie was approaching 30 by the time of her first recordings with Fleetwood Mac, which is rather long in the tooth for a rock-pop star's debut big-biz recording. Like Madonna, Nicks is a capable lyricist but needs someone to help her frame and orchestrate the music. Like Madonna, her singing voice is slightly better than marginal, but some folk swear up and down she's the greatest singer of all time.

They have had similar commercial success - Rumours is still the second-best selling album of all time, and Nicks had (still has, maybe?) quite a successful solo career. While Madonna may have sold more total records than Nicks (I'm not sure of that) their careers have had some significant parallels. They both have fashioned a stage persona that isn't the real woman, both have played on the sensual aspects of their performance. The popularity of each has waxed and waned throughout the years.

Two physically attractive female vocalists who write the majority of the lyrics to the songs they sing, have had enormously successful careers with great longevity, have played the sex kitten, and who need help from more talented players surrounding them. I'd say that comparison is fair.

Taloran..I said most of the Beatles Lyrics. You have chosen the Long and Winding Road which I particularly like. One of thier better attempts. "Let it be" Is a great song but I do not think the lyrics are a poetic masterpiece. Now, what is poetic about Help or hard days night?

I never said ALL Madonna's lyrics were poetic masterpieces. Infact, I think I mentioned one or two particular songs that I thought were special lyrically. This is precisely where I suggest summary and comprehension. I am afraid to disappoint a lot of you but the whole world does not think the Beatles are beyond compare. I am sure a majority of Americans do and a majority of British do but there are other European cities, South Americans, Australians and not everywhere has Beatlemania. I am sure all over the world they have lots of fans but they are no gods in the eyes of all, unlike some of you here. Its the same for every star and its the same for the Beatles.

I guess you would have to be a woman to understand that the lyrics of Like A virgin/Papa don't preach can stand up to almost any other set of lyrics but I feel no need to start that discussion. Mind you, Madonna did not write Like a Virgin she simply expressed it as only she could/can.

Tom: My poor friend of contradictions. It is okay when tou are expressing your opinions on Madonna to throw in personal attacks. You go on about her love for publicity, opportunistic behaviour and I think one of the people on here even went as far as calling her a hooker. You've all had your personal characterisation or insults thrown in. However, when you get a response that doubts your ability to read and understand you feel that the person cannot back up thier argument and this is why they are throwing such personal attacks. Pot, Kettle?? Tar your daft opinions on Madonna with that very same brush, my friend!

A lesson Taloran: There is a difference b/w grammar and summary and comprehension. This is the 1st of your many problems. Your inability to distinguish the two. I don't think I have attacked anybody's grammar on here. This is not to say there is no room to, but it is the internet afterall so I leave room for abbreviations(bcos) typos, spelling errors and so on. It would be stupid of anyone to leave room for a total lack of ability to read and understand what it is you are reading regardless of your circumstances.

Duane assumption can very well be used in that sentence of mine. I think before you correct me you should check it out first instead of coming here like there is a rush to join the growing list of ignoramuses one seems to have on here. To assume something in the context of my sentence is to assert a claim, taking for granted the assumption of a false theory. Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof, a supposition. Infact, in this particular context they are interchangeable, either can be used as is clear from this old quote..That which is presumed or assumed; that which is supposed or believed to be real or true, on evidence that is PROBABLE. So, Duane, assumption can be used on probabilities depending on what context it is used in. Once again, if the summary and comprehension class was attended, you would be able to read things in context and get the full gist of it before posting. By the way, at what point am I attacking people who have not had access to education? Honestly, summary and comprehension I repeat, was a very vital class that a lot of you obviously missed.
The rest of your post is a complete nonsense.

Craig, you clearly misunderstood my post. You jumped to the conclusion I was comparing Madonna to Tori Amos and then went on to tell me about.. dancers? That is so not the point and only somebody blinded by dislike of Madonna would miss something so simple. I like Tori Amos which is exactly why I was in one of her concerts when she chose to cover "live to tell" which involves no dancers so what on earth you are talking about once again is beyond me. She sang the song totally different and it just was not the same. Wrong key. It sounded dull and it still had the back ground music. It may be your opinion that the music is what everybody likes but I am here to tell you that, that is an untruth. The Lyrics are what add the drama to the powerful music co-produced by M and they work hand in hand to make the classic that it is. I could care less who was credited on the song you mention.It does not prove your point in any way. The fact remains it is song co written and co produced by Madonna/Leonard.

Again, I never said bands that play in clubs for 19 years suck. I said "JUST BECAUSE" they have does not make thier music automatically great, so the rest of your post after that expressing complete and utter rubbish views, was lost on me. I also never said that it was OK to give a recording contract to someone just because they were/are pretty.I believe I was making a point or a comparison. Again we fall back to that age old problem of summary and comprehension and just generally the ability to read things in context and most importantly, dear God, most importantly, UNDERSTAND what it is you are reading.

In you world the credit of every artist who ever lived and did not play an instrument must have whatever classics they managed majorly attributed to whatever person played the instruments. Even if it was a hired band or drummer, We should go through their entire careers saying this Album was successful because so and so played the guitar on this track. This song is a classic because so and so played keyboards on it? Get real Craig. Stop talking out of your a.s.s. I am not going into the discussion of vocal talent again because I think I have written about it ad nauseum. At no point did I say Madonna or Spears can sing like Aretha, but Aretha can not perform like either of those two and by all appearances can not write lyrics like Madonna. This vocal thing is subjective. To each his/her own..if great voices is all that thrills you in music then Aretha, Celine etc are your people and if Madonna does not do it for you, thats fair. If a whole variety of other things are more your style, then Madonna may well do it for you. On the other hand she might not. This is not a campaign to get anybody to like the woman. I could care less if you did or not. This whole debate(which i am enjoying for sheer entertainmnt provided by some pathetic individuals)started because I had a problem with Eric's article and I felt/feel that if Madonna's career were to belong to a man or a less public person, she would get more credit than she gets right now. I am not interested in forcing anybody to like her or go out and buy her records. In fact, I am not forcing anybody to give any credit if they feel she does not deserve it but I will surely argue when I find that the reason Mr A is giving M no credit is because of some nonsensical reason that were his/her views Court Evidence, it would be thrown out of court as having no factual basis and more personal madness than anything based on tangible evidence. Besides, I believe this is precisely why boards such as these are set up and here we are debating the issue.

Finally, Craig, you talk about the Neptunes. Eminem talks fast(or raps) over tunes layered on by Dr Dre most times. Do you see anybody taking away any credit from Eminem because of the "edgy" producer/s he works with? NO! Heaven forbid Madonna writes down some lyrics and Dr Dre produces the song. If its a hit, all we will hear is that its because she knows what is hot and works with hot producers. You and I and everybody on here know thats exactly what would happen so no matter what any of you have said on here, I know that a majority of objective thinking individuals, even those with the intellect God gave a monkey, who have no pre-conceived notions or ideas about Madonna because of her public image, would agree with me a 100%. Thats all I am saying. I am not comparing her to anybody. Musical taste is a subjective thing..you may think the Beatles are the dogs bollocks, I would take even the not so popular band K's choice over the Beatles anyday. Totally diffferent type of music but then maybe that in itself says something.

Taloran, your last post actually makes far more sense. Perhaps you have finally taken your medication and are with your senses. It allows for subjectivity and makes sense basically. At the end of the day 99% of all Artists will work with others on thier work, and many of those others might be more talented. My point falls back to the fact that because of Madonna's public brazen "bitch" like image, ignoramuses focus completely on those surrounding her rather than on what she may have done to make this a good song or whatever. The same thing could be happening with an Artist right next door but they would give the credit to that Artist most likely because she or he is not seen as a larger than life figure that Madonna is seen as. I think if the point is not understood after this, then I will start summary and comprehension lessons at midnight London time.

I have far too much time on my hands:)

Hard days night? or work? Anyway, its a song that starts with hard days and one that clearly is no poetic masterpiece.

Filibustering and rambling on and on doesn't make you right. If you read properly, I have (on multiple occasions) given Madonna credit. You on the other hand have given her too much credit. You are a superfan and beyond reason.

I don't even remember what we are arguing about anymore. I think Madonna deserves respect, but with people like you fawning all over her, I don't think we have anything to worry about there. Just be careful who you respect and what you respect them for. You might be putting someone on too great a pedestal.

you are right Craig - though I like Madonna very much musically and admire what she has accomplished, I find much about her irritating, false, and certainly not worthy of emulation

"Taloran, your last post actually makes far more sense. Perhaps you have finally taken your medication and are with your senses."
Why the attack on me? I've just joined the conversation! Not that I give a shit, since you're obviously a deranged, obsessed Madonna fan in the same way as the fan who shot Selena. But aren't you skewing things a bit here?

What a fucking whack job.

I am a superfan and quite capable of being reasoned with and nobody is a god to me except God himself. Nobody is on a pedestal except my mother but I admire Madonna and unlike Eric I have no interest in passing judgment on who or what is worthy of emulation considering I am not without my faults too. I am sure there are many things irritating and false about you Eric. This is no reason for people not to admire your admirable qualities if you have any. I guess we are just different types of people. I am not self righteous. I do not think if somebody does something I might not necessarily do myself, that totally means they are beyond redemption in my eyes.

Craig, you think I give her too much credit, I think you give her too little credit. Neither of us will convince each other. I think you are the last person to be giving me any moral lessons as to who and what to respect. Remove the log in your eyes before you try to take out the speck in mine.

Comment 46 posted by Taloran on November 19, 2003 07:09 PM:

There is no doubt in my mind that Madonna ranks well above Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, Leo Sayer, Cinderella, Cyndi Lauper, Britney and most other acts in the annals of pop history. The longevity of her career is astounding. To remain as popular as she has for two-plus decades indicates that she possesses an exceptional gift.

But to compare Papa Don't Preach to The Long and Winding Road, or Like A Virgin to Let It Be is the absolute height of absurdity. Calling the lyrics of the Beatles "nursery rhymes" while extolling the poetic virtuosity of Madonna is similar to denigrating the work of Einstein while pointing out the wonders of a sharpened stick.


..Now, you are the one who is schizophrenic. This is the post I was responding to before your last post. How did u just join the conversation? Did you not post the above? Or was that before you popped your pill as I suspected?

Deranged, obsessed? Ha! You must be kidding! You are the complete idiot if my defending and putting my views about Madonna across is seen as deranged and obsessed to you. If anything, I like her, so I should know this much. Its you imbeciles that don't seem to care for her much and write down that hatred with such passion but still no sense, that one should be worried about.

What do you know about my morals? Maybe I could teach you a lot about morals. You don't know me. The only thing you know about me is that we don't agree on Madonna. I am fine with disagreeing on that, but the rest is garbage. You are grasping at straws to take a personal shot at me. That's about the last gasp for a person desperate for air. I am done. Go ahead and take the last word. (I know you will.)

It might be too late, but I will do my best to take "The Long and Winding (high) Road."

Peace.

Sandra, it's fine to defend Madonna all you want, but you don't do yourself or Madonna any favors by peronally attacking those who simply don't agree with you. It is not your job to convert the world, especially by means of insult. While I undoubtedly have many less than admirable qualites, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Madonna, who is the subject at hand. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are either 1) stupid, or 2) evil.

Um, Sandra, Aretha Franklin is a hellacious pianist. And she is well known for it.

I really wish people could disagree without the namecalling.

I have a picture of Aretha seated at the piano - most singers play SOME instrument besides their voice.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to compose chord progressions with just your voice.

Eric, I did not see you defending Madonna when she was personally attacked simply bcos we are discussing her work. More importantly at the genesis of this thread, the first person who started the personal attacks was Tom. I posted and he called me incredibly stupid cause I disagreed about the Beatles. Where were you then? Oh! It was okay because you agreed with him about the Beatles? By the way, on a reading of all posts you will find that it has been give and take. Dont throw stones if you can't stand it being thrown back at you, thats the moral lesson for the day. Geez! If I can agree to disagree about the message your article conveyed I can do it on all issues but as is apparent from any reading of all the posts here, nobody was willing to leave it at that and we all carried on. So, for you all to whinge now about name calling is pathetic. Grow a spine. Everybody here did some name calling/personal attacks except Eric maybe..but ERIC did not stop anyone then..why then stop me because we dont have the same opinion? Goes to show, does it not?!:)

I have absolutely NOTHING worthwile to add to this conversation. Heck, I didn't even really read many of the posts. I just love the title of the post: Britney and Madonna. Mmmmmmm, yummy. Oh, and one other thing, Mrs. Bricklayer is a fan of the early Madonna-she doesn't wanna hear any of that bloop blip, blop, while I enjoy her entire body of work. Especially the Pepsi commercial.

Sandra, I invite you to please re-read what I wrote. I'll include it here for you (please feel free to scroll up and verify that it is identical):

Sorry, but any point you were attempting to make has been negated by this incredibly stupid remark.

Where did I call you "incredibly stupid"? I called your remark incredibly stupid. Not you.

No offense, Sandra. I was just teasing. It's all in good fun. And just to prove that I'm not an ignoramus, I'm going to share a little theory that I've been entertaining. I'm starting to think that Madonna herself is using the pseudonym "Sandra Smallson." Who else could so vehemently defend her? Is that you, Madonna? Come on, you can tell us.

Does anyone other than Sandra have anything to say about my statement that Stevie Nicks would make an equitable comparison to Madonna (comment 56)?

The post as a whole makes sense. I never said I agree or disagree with the comparison with Stevie Nicks. The post read in context makes some sense is what I meant by MY post in response to yours. Being the "die hard, deranged, obsessed" Madonna fan that you all call me, I do not think she is comparable to anyone and thats not because I think she is greater than everyone else, its simply because I think she is incomparable. I think you have got no response because everybody has said thier piece and nothing more need be said.

Tal, there are striking parallels, but Stevie hasn't ever really led the charge herself: she was part of a duo, then part of a group, then went solo with a lot of help, then was part of a group again. She has had little cultural impact, but she has also had some great songs and has endured. But she's no Madonna - there isn't really ANYONE close.

RE #76: Stevie Nicks had one successful solo album, yes/no? Taloran? I remember the one with "Stop Draggin' My Heart Around" but I don't know of many others she did solo, away from Fleetwood Mac, so I don't know if she can be compared to Madonna.

Madonna didn't start in a band and then break away, she started solo.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

So on this basis I don't think Stevie Nicks is a good comparison.

First of all, to all the critics/haters who say Britney and Madonna are talentless....LMFAO. How has Madonna lasted so long, been so successful? Britney, obviously is doing extremely well herself, after 3lp's, selling over 50 million albums, umm did mariah do that>whitney>celine? NOPE, look it up if ya like. I just think it's pathetic and sad how people try to say it's sex or image that sells cd's. Ohh yea, when i'm puttin in my "in the zone" cd i'm thinkin about how britney looks in a bikini...umm no. The girl is gorgeous, no doubt, but that isnt what has made her who she is, same goes for madonna, who obviously has 2 have had great music too last all these years. Stop hating, move on with life...take up a hobbie...water polo perhaps? lol.

Foist things foist: You don't have to be
a "hater" to think that either of these women are talentless. They're not really
talentless,just mediocre and bland,hence
their widespread appeal. If Sex Does Not
Sell: Would either of them be where they
are today without the looks & sex appeal
thing in their corner??? I do seriously
doubt it. No matter how good the voice is,if they looked like Rosie O'Donnell
do you think they would be where they are now? No,of course not. To deny that
sex sells is ludicrous.Madonna well knew
this and capitalized on it unabashedly.
Ditto for Britto.What's more they are open about it,especially M.

Its not about pregnancy
It might seem like it is
But papa dont preach is about madonnas love for a guy her friends dont like
papa is another better sounding word for friends
she is telling the media also and all her offenders that she is keeping her baby
Madonna and The papa dont preach guy Sean Penn got married, but it didnt last. Papa dont preach, ahh what a lovley song.
If it was about pregnancy itd be better still I love that song
Im 13.... :)
Jd

hey britney when is ur next consert i want to go e-mail mebk

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