Blogcritics Comments on Wynton Marsalis on America's Cultural Bankruptcy

Comment by J.R. Ortiz, jr.

Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:13:11 EST

Mr. Marsalis has a very good point. In this country, USA, ignorance is promoted as some "virtue". Rejection of the past is the norm. Being "scruffy" and uncultured is considered "cool". How often do I hear about "hip hop", Madonna, "The Sopranos" and other cheap "popular culture", yet rarely one hears about George Gershwin or Leonard Bernstein. The problem gets more complicated when this country try to "sell" itself to the outside world. Has nothing to offer except the same cheap "popular culture". Aren't we promoting more "anti-americanism" with our attitude? Thanks!

Comment by Stonedog

Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:47:13 EDT

One thing so many people don't understand; Hip-Hop has exploded, grown, mutated, bred and cross-bred. What IS hip-hop?? There are so many styles,forms and wings of hip-hop... You can't really say hip-hop = x or hip-hop= y. It's too multi-faceted. Know this; hip-hop can absorb, imitate or accomodate any other style of music. That's why artists of all other genres have worked with hip-hop influences or artists. You see it every day! There's Blues&hip-hop, Jazz&hip-hop, Classic music&hip-hop, Metal&hip-hop, House&hip-hop, Latin&hip-hop....it goes on and on... Hip-hop can adapt any style, it is like water. Like clay as long as you're creative and daring. And every day Hip-hop also creates completely original sounds and forms. Right now the answer to "what is hip-hop?" is a very long answer. It might take a whole book with audio CDs to explain it. So how can anyone make a generalising statement about hip-hop?? You can't. Wake up.

Comment by Vern Halen

Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:41:21 EDT

Some wonderful & thought provoking reading here in this thread. Maybe the whole issue is the fact that the music industry has simply fragmented over quite a long period of time. If a person likes jazz for instance, he or she may have time to listen all the way back to Charlie Parker, but not have time to listen to other genres like hip hop, consequently leading to a misundertanding of that genre. But if a person says they listen to all kinds of music, perhaps they never get more than a superficial undertanding of many different styles. I dunno - you'd have to be your own judge of yourself there. But in both cases, blanket statements like "(insert least liked genre here) is dead" are somewhat invalid. The fact is, few people have the time, training and/or intuition to fathom the history of popular music from even the last 50 years, much less the parallel developments in jazz, blues, folk, rock, world music etc. I think at this point in music history you've got to be very subjective and develop your own concept of how music works for you in your life - there's no point arguing whether either the Stones or Eminem are geniuses or just past their best before date. Whatever works for you.

Comment by francisco68

Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:32:45 EDT

He is right about popular culture. It is deteriorating although not with the help of Wynton or Branford Marsalis; fine musicians. Hip Hop and rap remain to be seen although all genres of music find their geniuses -- and their hacks. As do the other arts.

Comment by godoggo

Tue, 31 May 2005 22:49:26 EDT

Don't forget that he also recorded with Public Enemy.

Comment by HW Saxton

Tue, 31 May 2005 22:37:52 EDT

I don't know about Wynton but Branford has experimented with Hip Hop. He likes a lot of the musical aspects.The use of experimental & cutting edge production techniques,use of samples and blending of CG beats with organic music/musicians getting out a strong & positive message and just the musical end in general. He's against the gangsta lifestyle,guns, misogyny,dope,glorification of violence and those aspects of it though. He did those "Buckshot LeFonque" records in the mid 90's."Breakfast At Denny's" was even a semi-hit. The best stuff from B.L.F is the tracks Branford did with DJ Premier from GangStarr. Really funky HipHop with some slamming sax work.

Comment by godoggo

Tue, 31 May 2005 21:45:08 EDT

I wonder what Marsalis thinks of the jazz/hip hop played by former sideman Russell Gunn or acolyte Nicholas Payton. Me I like'em a lot, and I simply loathe most hip hop, although I've heard some interesting stuff on public radio. But there's something fundamentally wrong to me about the idea, let alone the sound, of electronic drums. I have my problems with Wynton as a musician (for one thing, I think he's influenced some trumpeters who actually improvise more expressively and melodically than he) , but I disagree that he hasn't innovated. Listen to Blood on the Fields.

Comment by Robert Rucker

Tue, 31 May 2005 20:23:05 EDT

To all who disagree with Marsalis statements ....if Wynton did not stand up for jazz during the time this music lost it's way. Jazz would have surely found it's death. Even though this music has been documented well...Many jazz musicians of that time didn't take the time to teach our youth. Miles was to busy being a pimp. we needed new champion for jazz. To preserve the history. He made sure that young jazz musician study the history. You can say what you want....but look what he has done and backed up. He is responsible for a many new jazz musicians to arrive and has keep the old working. Duke Ellington would be proud of him I think

Comment by Mark Saleski

Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:15:46 EDT

gotta agree with Tom on the Matthew Shipp thing. Nu-bop is pretty cool. a great combination of jazz & electronica.

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:07:51 EDT

I like the Blue Series stuff a lot also, and this isn't of any particular help to anyone, but I have probably 1000 hip-hop and rap 12" and I admit that as often as not I like the instrumental B-side best. I am a huge fan of dub also.

Comment by Tom Johnson

Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:45:37 EDT

If you want to know what hip-hop and jazz have in common, do yourself a favor and pick up DJ Spooky Optometry, which is a jazz album featuring the cream of today's cutting edge crop - Matthew Shipp on piano, William Parker on bass, Guillermo Brown on drums, and Joe McPhee on sax and trumpet, oh, and Spooky on laptop, bass, and turntables. It's his date, but he's using the jazzers' work to build his own stuff. It's mostly instrumental, but is undeniably infused with a heavy dose of hip-hop sounds and textures. For the exact opposite - jazz getting mixed into hip-hop - check out Anti-Pop Consortium's Antipop Vs. Matthew Shipp. I can't say I care much for rapping, but what Anti-Pop has crafted here using Shipp's free-jazz explorations is pretty intriguing. I'm telling everyone again - the future of jazz is on Shipp's Blue Series, put out by Thirsty Ear. If you aren't listening to this stuff, you're really missing out on a preview of what the future of jazz is going to sound like.

Comment by JR

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:37:22 EDT

Thanks! I actually have the Herbie Hancock. It probably predates the term hip-hop, but I suppose that doesn't mean the label can't be applied to it retroactively.

Comment by Michael

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:47:34 EDT

JR, There have always been scattered instrumental tracks on albums. Remember, hip-hop did start with the DJ. To name a few: Many a single/12 inch has an instrumental B-Side Many tracks by the turntablists - DJ Shadow, X-ecutioners, Beat Junkies, Invisibl Skratch Piklz, U.N.K.L.E., etc Eric B & Rakim - Chinese Arithmetic, Extended Beat, Beats for the Listeners, Eric B is on the Cut (samples a voice) Too Short - The Ghetto (instr. version) Malcolm McLaren - She's Looking Like A Hobo, World Famous, Buffalo Gals is nearly instrumental Mos Def - May-December Jive's 'Rhythm Tracks' albums - a ton of classic tracks which have been sampled many times over. Public Enemy - Terminator X Speaks with His Hands, Security of the First World, Mind Terrorist (samples some voices though), PowerSaxx from the Brothers Gonna Work It Out Single, with a serious sax solo by Branford Marsalis I believe, and a bunch of other PE tracks DJ Quik - Quik's Groove ( I think he did one of these on each of his albums), Medley for a V (Reprise) The Roots - I can't think of a track but they must have at least a few Schooly D - It's Krak and Free Style Cutting (samples a voice though) Dr. Dre & Snoop - the instrumental version of 187 is an incredible track! The Instrumental version of Dre's 2001 album Boogie Down Productions - Criminal Minded, with a bunch of instrumentals (I may have to buy these last 2 my damn self...) Planet Patrol - Rock at Your Own Risk Mark the 45 King - The 900 Number Mantronix probably has a few Jungle Brothers - Sounds of the Safari Herbie Hancock - can we call Rockit a hip-hop song? ...

Comment by Tom Johnson

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:19:14 EDT

Johno, I'm running with your devil's advocacy: I don't agree that jazz is dead by any means (and it doesn't even smell funny, either.) Jazz today will never equal the vitality it had in the heyday of the 50s-60s, but neither will rock match it's own heydays of the 60s and 70s. But jazz has very much been revitalized to a point where it actually means something again to talk about jazz as an advancement in music. Do I care if it's ever big again? Not a wit - I just care that it remains big enough that people aren't dissuaded to become jazz musicians so more of the great stuff that's going on today can keep happening.

Comment by JR

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:27:54 EDT

Wait, there's instrumental hip-hop? Any good examples? I might actually want to listen to that.

Comment by cjones

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:15:35 EDT

Thanks for the articles Michael and Johno your points are understood.

Comment by Johno

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:23:00 EDT

Mac Diva, your point about intelligence::respect is well taken, but the unfortunate thing is that jazz is now by-and-large a museum piece. Yes, that means respect, but only in the same way that ancestral worship means respect. Moreover, jazz spent so much of its history being thoroughly DISrespectable that its current enshrinement implies that most of the vitality is gone for now. (Ditto rock and roll.) And while I agree that the VAST majority of hip-hop ranges down the scale from dimwitted to fuckwitted, millions of people respect it each week, with their wallets. Just playing devil's advocate.

Comment by Johno

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:06:40 EDT

Michael, very true. CJones, I limited my comparison between Busta Rhymes and Monk to rhythm only, for a reason. That reason? Both Monk and Busta had a highly individualized approach to articulation and phrasing that ties them together. I'm not claiming that they are two peas in a pod, but simply that in terms of rhythmic inventiveness/playfulness/slipperiness, there's common ground between the two. Not all hip-hop artists have such rhythmic facility, but Busta certainly does. And I would NEVER compare Foxxy Brown, a hack with giant photogenic tits, to Billie Holiday. Mary J. I would make a better case for, because she has a hell of a voice, even if she does need to take a class (or woodshed a bit) on basic improvisation technique. But by that same token, would you compare Koko Taylor to Etta James? Janis Joplin to Bessie Smith? Holly Cole to Dinah Washington? I think the point of the whole discussion-- and the point that Wynton Marsalis misses-- is that excellence can be measured by many standards, and Marsalis' is just one of them.

Comment by Michael

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:06:23 EDT

It's pretty clear that Wynton is speaking about all hip-hop, even instrumental. In his speech, he (kinda) beat boxes a simple (hip-hop) beat and says 'stay away from stuff like this'.

Comment by Mac Diva

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:58:55 EDT

I can't disagree that this is a society in which ignorance is encouraged. However, I have no brainstorm in regard to what can be done about that. Seems to me that individuals have to decide they don't want to be stupid. No one else can do that for them. The younger people are when they make that decision, the better. I also believe at least two kinds of hip hop are being discussed here without being delineated. Wynton is definitely right about gangsta rap, which sells disproportionately, mainly to white kids who are giving stereotypes about black people a new life. By subsuming that 'music' in the broader genre, people skip around the issue. It is also telling that many hip hop artists don't play any instruments, read music or even sing well. The absence of real skills suggests that something other than musicianship is responsible for their success. Too bad Ralph Ellison is dead. I would love to hear his take on this. Michael, mainly what is missing from too much hip hop music, in addition to musicianship, is any evidence of intelligence. That is why it will never reap the respect jazz has. I am not saying there is no brainy hip hop music, but most is all show, no substance. Eric, thanks for correcting someone who fell all over himself criticizing a genius he can't hold a candle to.

Comment by Michael

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:06:47 EDT

CJones, I wrote a paper about all the similarities between jazz and hip-hop back in my college days. I wish I could find it now. Perhaps the biggest similarities are the use of improvisation, the melding of several previous types of music, and intricate rhythms. Other similarities, aside from the music, are that they both became cultures and many people swore that neither was real music because they broke so many traditional musical rules. There's been a lot written on this topic. Here's but one of those articles - Hip Hop Music and its Connection to Blues and Jazz By W.E. Smith. And if you saw the Jazz documentary on PBS, you could almost substitute "hip-hop" for "jazz" in much of the discussion and the basic story would still ring true.

Comment by cjones

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:31:00 EDT

As a child of the hip hop generation and one who grew up in the NY during the birth of hip hop, rap or Emceeing (M.C.) as it used to be called back then, I really have to say that there is no comparison to between hip hop and jazz. Hip hop was started with already created music spinning loops and stealing samples of someone else's ingenuity. Many times it used and still uses jazz samples. Today it is evolving to the point where it uses some instruments but it still is basically someone walking back and forth on stage braggin' about what they have and what they did. There rarely is beauty or class involved in any of it as opposed to jazz. How in the hell could a human being with two functioning ears compare Thelonious Monk with Buster Rhymes is beyond comprehension to me. Can you compare Mary J Blige and Sarah Vaughn, Foxxy Brown and Billie Holiday? There is absolutely no comparison.

Comment by Tom Johnson

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:27:52 EDT

I think that Wynton may be *trying* to comment on the perception presented to most people of most *popular* rap/hip-hop. He may be truly ignorant about the whole genre, but I think his aim with his comments is purely at what is on the charts - what he hears occasionally on TV, in the mall, etc., which is influential to kids today. With that narrowed scope placed on his statement, he's right.

Comment by Tom Johnson

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:23:53 EDT

Eric: um . . . yeah, yeah they are both in M, aren't they? Duh! It's been a VERY LONG morning so far. I see an even longer day ahead. Yikes.

Comment by Michael

Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:17:41 EDT

Eric, details, details. :-)