JR: There is historical significance here with the Legion of Decency, for instance.

TB: There is a serious side to some of their repercussions of what they did. They pushed the First Amendment, and laid the groundwork for mass media like no one else. The studios those days kowtowed to the Hayes Code. And the day the Hayes Code was enacted was the day exploitation was born, and these guys blazed the trail. So they fought the good fight, in their minds. With every publicity kit and release, they had lawyers prepare packages to send to theaters to prepare for any legal intervention, like police busts. They don't talk about that stuff, and we could have gone there, but it's not funny.

And this was never intended to be a comprehensive look at the exploitation genre. I was cloaking a profile of two old men with some sex and comedy. If I had not put those movies in it, do you think anybody would have watched this one?

JR: What are the signifiers of the exploitation genre?

TB: These guys broke the nudity barrier with the nudist camp films also called 'volleyball epics,' for obvious reasons. When they got tired they went to more exposition in the "nudie cuties. These were basically adult pictures for children: "I'll turn into a frog so I can see the girl undress." Then they shifted really weirdly from nudie cuties to the roughish. Then things went explicit and hardcore, which they dabbled in briefly and then they gave it up.

JR: Did they talk about why they gave it up?

TB: As Dave explained it in the movie, his wrap on it was, 'we're carnie guys. We promise and don't deliver. We give you the sizzle not the steak. The minute you raise the curtain you give away the third act, and what's the fun in that?" Plus, they were getting old. And video production was coming around. It was too much for them. They were used to shooting grinders and shipping prints to theaters. They didn't know anything about this home video. They were tired. They were done. They had the money they needed. Hardcore was an entirely different revolution, with different younger players. It's like me at my age trying to hang out with rappers.

JR: Dave said their work brought down barriers. Do you think he meant this in earnest, or was it just a good marketing angle?

TB: Dave is the ultimate carnie. He'll come up with a line of bullshit before he comes up with the idea itself. That's why he said he'd write the trailers and posters before he wrote the scripts. Dan would say, 'boy if Dave doesn't know the answer, he'll make one up and it'll be better.' But Dave is proud of what he's done, and he ought to be. He was a pioneer. He is regarded by many people as A Great. I'm glad he's happy about his life.