NO. BUSH IS A NAZI. HE'S HITLER. JACKBOOTS. ENRON. COCAINE. DRUNK. COWBOY. ALL DECENT PEOPLE HATE BUSH. YOU MUST BE A NAZI RACIST TOO. OLIGARCHY. BIG CORPORATIONS. BAD, BAD, BAD. HE HATES MOM, APPLE PIE AND BASEBALL. RADICAL RIGHT WING EXTREMIST. BUSH BAD. REPUBLICANS EVIL. HATES ENVIRONMENT WANTS TO KILL ALL TREES. BUSH IS SATAN. THEOCRACY. HE STEAL CANDY FROM CRIPPLED KIDS.

There, now let me see you argue against THAT, Mr. Right Wing Extremist.

Jeff, I can't say you've piqued my interest, but you have written a fairly meaningless post. As Socrates tells us "the unexamined life is not worth living", so too "the unexamined post is not worth posting."

While there are certainly dittoheads of every stripe, it is also beyond question that philosophies, especially those of dead philosophers, are easy to bend to the will of whatever group wants to claim them. Plato, being long dead and very famous, can mean many things.

In this context, do you think the Bush administration is espousing the principles of "The Republic"? Which parts? Do they call for the abolition of traditional families and private property? Do they engineer totalitarian control over the ruled by the ruling classes by means of propaganda and media control? If so, shouldn't they be keeping that a secret?

Do they want the majority of residents to be slaves rather than citizens (as in Magnesia in "The Laws")? Do they want to abolish the executive?

I have no confidence in your assertion that Bush, Cheney, and company are attempting to create a state based on the principles of Plato. If you were to suggest that Bush tries to run the state on the basis of how some flavor-of-the-week business guru has filtered Plato ("The Seven Habits of Highly Platonic Executive Leaders" hmm, perhaps there's opportunity there...), then you might have a case.

Do I cricitize Bush? Heck yeah! I lived in Texas through his governorship and I know what he's like as a leader, and I am sorry that the failed results of his policies weren't more obvious in 2000 when he marketed his way into the White House.

My personal preference would be for an Executive branch more in tune with Jefferson, Adams, Rawls, Locke or even ($Diety help us) Alexander Hamilton than Plato. I'm not convinced that being a resident of the Republic is good for anyone but the Philosopher/Tyrant in charge.

Jeff, if the only people you can find to hang with insult Bush but can't blow away your really weak invocation of Plato, then perhaps you need to find a smarter crowd to hang with.

um, he likes baseball, I think

If you like Plato's books, you'll love his Retreat.

I'm surprized universities are still suckering the YDFoC into forking over money to "study" Journalism. You don't study Journalism, you do it. (Full disclosure I took one year of Journalism and then dropped it because the instructors were either failed newspaper hacks, or underpaid writers supplimenting their income and decided to study what interested me - History and Geography, while working as a freelance writer)

And besides having a "B.J. Degree" didn't really appeal to me.

Jeff,if you are pulling the "Educated Journalism Major" card, you ought to take better care to write like one.

_I'M_ an english major; I get to use that as my excuse to write all fuzzy and emotively.

I agree with Michael, if you're talking about the Bush administration being Platonic, you better give us some better examples, rather then just making fun of us for (maybe) not knowing what that means.

(...there is another Murphy out there that is not me! Hello Murphy Person!)

"In order to understand what the Bush administration is doing right now and in the past few years you have to have a working knowledge of Plato."

You pompous A-Hole.

Bricklayer's golden-hued reverie is elbowed aside by the juxtaposition of Bush and Plato. Now where is my cave of shadows?

Mr. O: I like the way you talk. Mmm, hmm.

Thanks Bricks, now fix my lawnmower

I reckon I like my biscuits with mustard mmmhmm

That was funny ha ha, not funny queer.

I absolutely love this. I write a post that you all say is worthless, and yet, you take time to make comments hell-bent on negating it. I do believe this means that you were at least thinking about the points that I made, which was my goal to begin with. Oh, and as for my friends--let's just say that they spend their day debating real live people face to face--not trying to "outsmart" someone they have never actually met. Good one though.

Don't let me get in the way though--please carry on telling me how ignorant I am.

Welcome back, Jeff. Did you pick a part of Plato that you think is driving the Bush administration policies?

Jeff my friend, I fear you ran into a nest of philosophy majors, minors or devotees who are rather jaded when it comes to seeing clasical thought in the actions of professional politicians, especially ones with whom they don't agree.

And then there is the usual assortment of smartasses.

Perhaps you could follow this up with a list of specific Platonic thought you see manifested in the Bush administration - that might answer a few of the comments.

Oh, I almost forgot--By the way, I am a journalism major, but I am not an English minor and my spelling is atrocious(sp?) most journalism majors I know have horrid spelling. Anyway, I digress.
Depending on how you look at the Republic, you can EASILY see where the Bush's administration has completely indoctrinated themselves with every iota of information included in its pages.
1. The Republic is Plato's most ethics centered piece. It is the ultimate collection of reasoning what it takes to be happy. Plato's general concensus? Virtue and knowledge will make a life worth living. I don't know if you have listened to Mr. Bush speak but, for the most part, the absence of virtue and knowledge was the reasoning behind the regime change in Iraq (well, that and the WMD's, but you get my point).
2.Another idea pulled from the pages of Plato is the idea that "good" and "knowledge" are virtually synonymous. That is, the good people in the world are responsible for everyone elso knowing what "good is". Again, you can see this in the Bush administration in what everyone sle seems to describe as Bush's "cowboy" syndrome.
3.As Eric pointed out, the "Cave of Shadows" is another great analogy found in the pages of the Republic. In fact, one can take this analogy and compare it to the gradual way we are teaching the Iraqi's to govern themselves.

I could go on and on, I could also take other instances from the Bush's administration that not only reflect the above references, but also delve further into Book 7,8,9 and 10 of the Republic, but alas, I have already taken up too much space. Is this good enough for you Mr. Croft? I can site my findings if you like, however most of them are my own feelings.

Anyone who is genuinely interested in looking at classical parallels to our current military/political situation would do well to take an afternoon perusing the back numbers of Victor Davis Hanson's column at NationalReview.com

A memorable example: He wrote a mock interview of Thucydides in which he pulled verbatim quotes from the Rex Warner translation as answers to his queries about what the post-911 world would be like.

Jeff,

I, too, shall digress: I have horrible spelling and make grammatical mistakes. I didn't point them out in your post, but they do distract, especially in a post which emphasizes how you are smart and the reader is dumb. There is no college major which excuses them.

I am glad you've posted your examples because now instead of merely commenting on your blanket abuse of everyone for not understanding the Bush policy because we don't understand Plato, we can actually discuss the merits of your claim.

In your first item, I do not see your point. President Bush, whom I have heard speak, has over time provided a wide variety of reasons for pressing the case for war in Iraq. These have included Iraq's WMDs, Iraq's programs to get WMDs, Saddam's killing of his own people, the possibility that Iraq could attack the US as al-Queda did, Iraq's violation of UN directives, and Saddam's attempted assassination of George H.W. Bush. None of these items can be reasonably construed as directly asserting that Iraq was invaded because the Iraqi regime was not virtuous and did not know how to be virtuous. Indeed, had this been a publicly proclaimed rationale, it would almost certainly have alienated our few allies in the Islamic world. The only part of the case that was domestically and internationally acceptable to any degree was the case of the threat that Saddam Hussein's Iraqi government was a danger to other countries. Without evaluating that case at all, I wonder how you think the (apparent) lack of virtue and knowledge in Iraq were a causus belli for this war.

Your second item suggests that the Bush administration acts from the assumption that they are responsible for goodness worldwide, including defining it and assuring that those who are not knowledgeable be given the benefit of this knowledge. This seems to be so broadly defined as to be meaningless. Every religion with a proselytizing element believes that they know what is good and have a duty to bring that knowledge to others. Karl Marx and Hobbes and Nietzche have definitions of good and wrote books to convince others of their position. If this item doesn't have more meat to it than "they think they know what is good and attempt to convince others of it", then it doesn't tie Bush policy to platonic ideas at all. Can you be more specific about a case of the Bush administration bringing to bear their special knowledge of good/knowledge on an issue and how it is tied to platonic principles?

Your last item states that the Cave of Shadows is a good analogy to the way we are teaching the Iraqis to govern themselves. While there are plenty of people who question that we are teaching the Iraqis to govern themselves or that they were not governing themselves before (albeit horrifyingly), let us assume that there is some attempt to teach the Iraqis to govern themselves and that it is possible at this early stage to evaluate it. In fact, this analogy would likely improve with time, because at this point there is almost no evidence that any education has taken place or that Iraqis are allowed to make decisions of any meaningful sort. I am open to your further explanation of who is being dragged from the Cave of Shadows and shown the Sun and how they are going to be brought back to share their new knowledge with the others in the cave. Who will? Saddam himself? Chemical Ali? The Cave of Shadows is not about dragging people from the Cave and arresting them.

And disturbingly you don't address the question that has been raised of picking and choosing those bits of Plato you want to consider inspiring some bits of Bush administration policy. Are you saying "in order to understand some of the choices of the Bush administration you must understand some Plato, specifically the parts of Plato that I think are exemplified in Bush administration policy"? If so, is there any administration of anything or anyone ever to whom an analogous statement would not apply? Clinton lobbied for NAFTA because he thought he was spreading virtue and knowledge and is therefore platonic? Mussolini made the trains run on time and it was good and is therefore inspired by Plato? There is a strong chance that at least one of the two was familiar with Plato's works.

So, I am hoping Jeff that you have saved some much stronger evidence of a general platonic philosophical underpinning to Bush administration policy, because I don't see it.

Dude...journalism major? You have spelling mistakes. I'm glad you're trying but you have a way to go before you are a journalist.

If I sound discouraging, get used to it, that's journalism.

>HE HATES MOM, APPLE PIE AND BASEBALL.<

He was the part owner of the Texas Rangers and many think he could be the commisioner of Baseball.

I don't think I read any Plato before (I read the Odyssey, it that be Homer???) but I thought I completely understand Bush.

COMMENTS: I CHECKED OUT YOUR BLOG FOR INFO. FOUND NOTHING HERE.

YOU DO MEET TWO OF BURKE'S CRITERIA FOR "THE SUBLIME" - DARKNESS AND VACUITY. YOU OUGHT TO FULFILL THE THIRD - SILENCE. GET OFF THE WIRE! EH?

What exactly does this administration have to do with Plato? Would you care to elaborate? What "knowledge" of Plato does Bush have that he is so slyly implementing and so effectively applying to this society? You did little more than drop a couple names ("Plato ... oooh, Burke ... ahhh) but said absolutely nothing that serves as a justification of the claim that "In order to understand what the Bush administration is doing right now and in the past few years you have to have a working knowledge of Plato and what he believed."

And, yes . . . I am one of those freaks who didn't think of playdough and who has read and studied a good deal of Plato (and Burke, for that matter).

And . . . I'll eat my hat (though, in a spirit of full disclosure, I don't wear one) if Bush knows a darn thing about Plato.