Blogcritics: Comments on Can I get a witness

Comment by Joe

Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:47:12 EDT

Andy- Lest I've given you the wrong impression, the nuns beat any religion out of me years ago, and, please, refrain from referring to Mac Diva in that manner.

Comment by andy

Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:31:18 EDT

proof Joe..that God can use even a pile of shit to do His work! hehehehe

Comment by Mac Diva

Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:08:43 EDT

Whatever. White folks know everything after all. (Snickering.)

Comment by Joe

Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:17:23 EDT

I found this link that had a couple of .pdf files of some of the comics you were talking about. I'm always amazed where people will look and sometimes find salvation.

Comment by Murphy Horner

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:30:08 EDT

Except for JOE! Bless you Joe. NO, it wasnt a jack chick...Oh man, those Chick tracts were like the christian's comic version of Stephen King...Yes, they were terrifying. He was a messed up guy, too. Had a real thing against the Catholics. No, this cartoon tract was different, it was from a whole nother school of comic-tract art. That was part of what made me so interested. It must be originated from Asia somewhere, or maybe from an Asian-American group. The dog cracked me up, too... Did you ever see the full-on Christian Comic books? Like, Archie and Jughead get saved, n stuff? I haven't seen those lately...

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:18:28 EDT

probably because they are pains in the ass, like Moonies or Jehova's Waitresses or Mormons Sorry if I cut you off - I'm known for that, ask Dawn or my kids.

Comment by Murphy Horner

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:58:59 EDT

Eric, you didn't wait for the rest of my response. Hey, I think it's obvious from context that I did not mean "chink" as a racial slur. But TDavid is right, good writing is better without that kind of ambiguity. Why would I want to make anyone pause (over a potentially painful memory) to consider whether or not I meant to disrespect this Asian woman? I believe I treated her with respect in the story, and so that would be further evidence that I was not intended the slur. But why distract from the story with that one word? My story could be told without the word just as clearly. This was a blogpost, not a piece for the New Yorker; if I ever do a second draft of this I'll take it out. The funny thing about this, is I _DID_ treat a group with disrespect, but no one has noticed that part. I was hoping to start some discussion about THAT. I guess no one cares if I bag on the born-again evangelicals.

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:53:36 EDT

Even if he's Michael Jackson

Comment by Murphy Horner

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:48:36 EDT

You know what's so painful about prejudicial stereotypes? The reduction of a person's humanity. By using one word to reduce a full human being to a flat, two-dimensional stereotype. And if the prejudiced person is committed to the stereotype, there seems to be no way to get them to SEE you. You could give all kinds of proof that you are different from the stereotype, MORE than just that, but the prejudiced person would still find a way to push you back down into what they think you are. SO, Mac Diva. I'm very upset with you treating me with such prejudice, pushing your stereotypical expectations on me. How many african american, american native, Asian and gay friends would I have to prove I have before you will admit me into the rank human being? Or would you dismiss that as tokenism? You know what? I was not raised to speak up when I am offended. I was raised to be more demure. But I've seen Asian women and African American women of my aquaintance speak right up when they don't like something. I admire that, and I'm emulating it right here. Shame on you, Mac Diva! Your hypocrisy is glaring! How dare you accuse me of prejudice when you are showing your prejudice towards me in UNambiguous terms by calling me "white folk"? Do you want to fight racism and promote equality between all people? Well I do! And if YOU want to do the same, you should start with the person in the mirror.

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:29:14 EDT

Okay, then I give up

Comment by Murphy Horner

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:25:47 EDT

TDavid, I see your point. It never occurred to me to think of the word "chink" as meaning anything but small aperature. But it is also known as a dehumazing term for Chinese or Asian people. I wouldn't want to reference that meaning, so it would be better to rephrase that one sentence.

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:15:39 EDT

By the way, I don't think I've made it clear enough that I absolutely love the diversity (in the best, organic, sense) of Blogcritics and the range of people and opinions expressed here - we have every kind of "minority" other than Inuits among us, and I don't doubt that a plugged-in igloo-dweller will find us eventually.

Comment by Eric Olsen

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:58:41 EDT

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe over time I have demonstrated a strong sensitivity to the sensibilities of minorities, particularly racial - there is nothing in anyone else's history to compare to the subjugation of black people as slaves and the extended aftermath. But this wasn't about blacks, it was about an experience with a Korean woman, the "chink" remark was in the context of a phrase referring to herself, not the Korean woman, and life is too short - where humor arises, especially unintentionally, doesn't it make more sense to chuckle rather than criticize? And it matters very much about the specific Asian country: a "chink" is very specifically a Chinese person, other Asian countries have their own slurs. Re Murphy being a woman, it certainly matters in the context of her being criticized for referring to someone as female rather than a woman when the same description refers to herself as well. I was merely pointing out that she is female since both you and Al seemed to mistake her for a male, which is not strange given her name, but which is incorrect nonetheless. In general, hypersensitivity - of whatever form - is not particularly helpful because the hypersensitive will ALWAYS find something to be sensitive about. The key is finding some kind of balance where clear violations are not tolerated but affronts are not sought out either. Don't you think?

Comment by Mac Diva

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:55:40 EDT

So, having freckles is equivalent to the long, deadly history of racism against people of color in America? I didn't realize that. Bustamante should be held responsible for this failure. I believe he will be.

Comment by Joe

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:22:09 EDT

Another real world example. Discuss! As a person of freckles, I think you can find just about anything if you're looking hard enough.

Comment by Mac Diva

Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:55:49 EDT

TDavid gets it. (And, no I don't know his or her race or gender.) To people of color, the unthinking ways of white folks are very noticeable. Freudian slips do tell all of us something, I believe. For example, Bush's surprised remark that there are black people in Brazil tells us he is ignorant of the history of the slave trade. A conservative diplomat's reference to the Niger River as the Nigger River told us how he generally thinks of Africans. Though not as serious, Murphy's usage suggests some discomfort with Asians, perhaps people of color period. I am not castigating Murphy, just bringing the matter to her attention. Eric, do you think only white men can have difficulty with race? The most avid supporters of the Civil War were the wives and daughters of planters.

Comment by TDavid

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:23:05 EDT

Hello Murphy :) I have to admit that upon my initial reading just now that I also did a double take on the passage in question:

There was a beautiful older Asian woman holding onto the rail at one point. I thought, Maybe I should stand up and let her have my seat. But then I realized that the seat next to me was empty anyway. She could sit if she wanted to. And then she did. She sat right next to me. And she turned to me, trying very hard with all the small bit of English she could muster, asking if I knew Jesus. I stifled a spasm of laughter, and told her yes, I did. "Are you go to Heaven when you die?" "I hope so," I told her. That was chink enough in my armor!

Not that it is badly written necessarily, but the timing and choice of the aforementioned cliche' so close to the description of the person you were describing (even if she was a Korean), well, I guess (as evidenced above and with me as well) it sets off alarms to some readers. I don't believe you meant anything racist by this passage of course, but I do think that it is better to stay away from cliches (which every writer, myself included, is guilty of doing) as much as possible, unless it is clearly intentional. As a creative exercise it was quite effective. Accidental and unintentional is how it appeared to me, though, not by design. My bad if this timing and use of cliche was by design. Otherwise an interesting post and those are my only other comments. Have a nice day ;)

Comment by Joe

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:08:46 EDT

Aside from all that, were those Jack Chick tracts? Those things scared the hell out of me! Not literally...

Comment by Al Barger

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:02:30 EDT

So I should have said "bitch" rather than "bastard"?

Comment by Eric Olsen

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:35:22 EDT

And is a woman and stuff

Comment by Eric Olsen

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:32:00 EDT

By the way, Murphy is female.

Comment by Al Barger

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:29:39 EDT

Yeah Murphy, you bastard. You know it's the rich white neighborhoods where you get mugged and raped. Go strolling around the dark neighborhoods, cause that's where you'll be safest. Also, if you're having any premonitions of inappropriate independent thought [such as noticing that the above statements are an exact reversal of actual reality on the ground], don't. This would qualify you as a RACIST. This will mean that you are a bad person, and that what you say need not be given any consideration. Now, we'll accept a profuse groveling apology- and a fat donation to Rainbow-PUSH.

Comment by Murphy Horner

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:36:51 EDT

Mac Diva, Who do you think I am that you make all these assumptions? You know very little. You are accusing me of prejudicial verbage, assuming you know about where I am coming from. Do you know what race I am? Do you know my background? Do you know my gender or my views? I use the work "chink" when referring to armor and you assume I mean a racial slur? I use the work female when referring to an Author and you assume that I place females in a category of animal? Shame on you for your uninformed assumptions. You point the finger at me, well, four more are pointing at you.

Comment by Mac Diva

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:15:54 EDT

It was glaring to me, Eric. And, then, I read the guy's review of a book by an Asian woman, who he always refers to as a "female." (Yes, technically true, but also an evasion of her humaness. Most animals can be female, but only humans can be women.) Hmmm.

Comment by Eric Olsen

Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:08:28 EDT

MD, how would you even notice such a thing? I'd say it was purely unintentional (if hilarious), and the woman was Korean, not Chinese. Ha ha!! caught you assuming all Asian slurs are the same.