Lack of politics, and you cite Ann Rand, who was just about as political as a person could get? Al! Al! Al!

I do agree with you about artists being important to American culture. My list included writers such as John Dos Passos and Sinclair Lewis. However, it was not as tilted toward art as yours. I also included figures from other fields, including medicine. I'll plop the URL here once I get an entry that is partly about that topic up. Probably tomorrow.

For now, here is my entry for John's previous inquiry, the worst figures in American history. For the record, I was among the people Right Wing News surveyed. My list for that one leaned toward bad presidents and Confederates.

Gorbachev made my list because he was the first leader of the U.S.S.R to basically back down and let communism do what communism was supposed to do: fail.

I mean geez, I think I am allowed one personal pick on my list of questionable quality. It's not like I picked Hitler for crissakes.

I wasn't asked, John doesn't like me because I married Dawn thereby taking her off the market. For all the importance sports has in this country (and world), I can't believe not one sports figure made it.

The New Yorker used to occasionally run the titles of thoroughly unpromising articles under the heading: "Articles We Never Finished Reading."

I clicked on Al's Ayn Rand link to discover a first-class example of a "Link I Could Never Bring Myself to Click": "...listen to Gary Hull's five-hour seminar `Introduction to Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand' in streaming audio."

A five hour streaming audio philosophy lecture does sound a bit dull. You'd probably be more entertained and better enlightened just to grab a plain old paperback copy of The Fountainhead.

Al, I can't believe you are promoting Ayn Rand -- a mediocre writer and thinker I associate with college sophomores. They like her because her works are basically a justification of selfishness and many people that age believe the world is going to be their oyster. (Ninety-some percent are in for one hell of a surprise.) Grow up!

Dawn, I considered citing Gorbachev, but went with Lenin for a Russian leader. Think he had more influence in world history and that it will continue to be felt, despite the dissolution of the U.S.S.R. Kruschev would have been a justifiable choice, too.

Miss Diva, if you had read even just the damned Cliff Notes for Ayn Rand, you'd know there was more to her work than you're describing here.

Just her outline of the basic issues of philosophy rates her as one of the greater philosophers in history, let alone any of her actual answers.

I don't agree that "enlightened self interest" is selfish, and is a foundation of both functioning democracy and capitalism, although I do not pray to the woman.

Al, I forced myself to read Ayn Rand. Never has there been more turgid prose penned. Biographies about her are better reads. For example, her obsession with seducing younger men is an interesting example of, as Eric says, "enlighted self interest."

That young men thing is SUCH an incredibly cheap shot, and does not in any way address any of her philosophical arguments.

She was an outstanding writer, very readable with great passion and a distinctive personal voice. The problem isn't that she didn't know how to write, it's that you just didn't like what she had to say.

Al, Al, Al! Outstanding writer? Come on! Now, don't get me wrong. I've read and recommended Fountainhead and Anthem many times. Atlas Shrugged got on my personal Ten Timers list long ago and I probably still haven't read it for the last time. But no way is she one tenth the writer she thought herself to be.

And if you cannot acknowledge that the sexual dynamic of her real world life impacted the fantasy life of her fiction, then I think you're being more than a little disingenuous.

I was driving my fifteen trillion ton oil tanker through some environmentally senstive Arctic terrain, and I needed to cast anchor. So I threw over a copy of Atlas Shrugged, and the ship came to a complete stop. Al is right: this is an extremely valuable book, useful in all sorts of situations.

And what's Martin Luther King doing on that list?! Hands off, you right wing dogs, he's ours! (Anti-Vietnam War, pro-union, pro-affirmative action; not a right wing bone in his body!)

Thanks, David and Mike! You guys have got ole Ayn's number.

Al, relax. Perhaps she will jump your bones in the next life.

Ha, ha. She had an affair with a younger man, therefore her thought need not be considered seriously.

Just for the record, Atlas Shrugged is the most important book of the century. No mockery or scoffing will make it not so.

I could easily think of 100 more important books of the 2Oth century.


I remember eating with a woman in my dorm who declared she was devoted to Ayn Rand and objectivism. Nearly 20 years later, there are still college students like her (though now they can pose with Ann Coulter and Dr. Laura).

Only a hundred? Al's opinions on Atlas Shrugged are mere Objectivist opinions, shared by people who can only judge literature in accord with their philosophical or personal biases. It's no different than, say, hearing an evangelical say that the "Left Behind" series are the greatest books ever written, or a child say "The Tawny Scrawny Lion" is the besk book ever written. In their own mind, these judgments are perfectly sound. They just don't apply to anyone else.

Agreed, Rodney.

Al, believe me -- good literature is something different from a polemical tract like Atlas Shrugged, regardless of the ideological leanings of the writer.

I thought Rand's work was pretty interesting, if somewhat overwrought, but at least she appeared to know the meanings of the words she used. No mean feat for a non-native speaker of English.

Not to sound like a groupie, but people who are intrigued by Ayn Rand's work really owe it to themselves to read Nietzsche. Much of what she said, he said years earlier and much more poetically (Zarathustra, his most "long-winded" work, is still much shorter and more beautiful than Atlas Shrugged). His astute observations of the human condition are more illuminating than Rand's essentially fundamentalist preaching.

I didn't mind all the generals ...they (and the inventors and capitalists) helped us have the leisure to pursue the arts and entertainment so high on your list. Also, would Miles Davis and Motown have been free to succeed as they did without the Civil War? (I know the war wasn't fought to "free the slaves;" do you think they'd have been freed eventually anyway?)
IMO, the people who invented the birth control pill should be on that list. They did more to empower women than the lawyers who cooked up Roe v. Wade ever did.

"And what exactly has Billy Graham accomplished to rate as a top figure of the century?"

Are you kidding? He has been our leading Religious Revivalist for half a century. He is like the Pope of Protestant America.

OK, so Billy Graham held some big tent revivals. That idea does fill me with a bit of warm nostalgic glow, but what has it accomplished to further humanity? How many jobs did he create? What did he invent?

I'm sure Rev Graham is a fine fellow, and a sincere man of God and all that. I just don't see what he's accomplished that would rate him as one of the greatest figures of the century.

the fact that we are here arguing about him betrays the fact that Billy Graham is worthy to be on this list. I personally probably would not have added him, however, have no qualms with him being there.

peace.

Does this same "fact we are arguing" logic also prove the worthiness of Ayn Rand?

No, it's with that logic that I am arguing that *I* should be on the list...

peace.

It shines through how little you know about the world, that you didn't list Mohandas K. Gandhi on your "Top Ten List". Although I do agree Bill Gates should be up there, the only reason you have him there is that your world view only encompasses and apparently acknowledges Western life. And Linus Pauling? Are you trying to look smart or something? He invented X-ray diffraction thoery and he told people that nukes were bad.....oh well, at least Elvis Costello earned higher esteem on your list than him? Brutal.

A few (biased) additions to the list (if it were up to me):

Albert Einstein
Erwin Schrodinger
Edwin Hubble
Wolfgang Pauli
Paul Dirac
Richard Feynman
Neils Bohr
Max Planck
Crick & Watson

The profound changes that these men have made to our understanding of the Universe, including the spillover over into our modern technological world, cannot be underestimated.

1) Jelly Roll Morton
2) Louis Armstrong
3) Django Reinhardt
4) Fletcher Henderson
5) Bob Wills
6) Raymond Scott
7) Carl Stalling
8) Ella Fitzgerald
9) Woody Guthrie
10) Jimmie Rodgers


Oh, wait, I thought this was Eric's "Greatest 10 Musicians" list.

Well, come to think of it, I'll let it stand.

Man, I hate coming to a party this late. But I brought beer!

Duane, thanks for the physicists' greatest hits. Neils Bohr rocks!

Anyway, having pondered the imponderable, here's my take on Al's gauntlet. And not only WHO, but WHY. (I want extra credit!)



Shark's List - 'Greatest People in the 20th Century
(in no particular order of importance)

1) Henry Ford - (inventions) In a century dominated by the automobile, where the economy, landscape, and lifestyle of modern humankind was transformed by a hunk of speeding metal, Ford has to be included. He not only perfected the automobile, but his innovations to the 'assembly-line' method of production had has millions of peripheral effects.

2) Einstein - (science/physics) E=mc2 transformed the way we think about the universe; he supplanted Newton in one swift blow. And like Ford, Einstein's theories paved the way for many subsequent inventions and innovations. (Duane, don't hurt me too badly, 'kay, ol' pal?)

3) Mahatma Gandhi (politics) - In a century where imperialism would be repeatedly challenged -- and an era when national autonomy would come to dominate international politics, Gandhi showed that non-violence could overcome a world power. Laid the way and created the model for MLK, et. al.

4) Eisenhower/the American G.I. - (world politics/war) A tie between the leader and his troops. Eisenhower united a disparate group of Allies and his G.I.s kicked Hitler's ass. It could be argued that no other man on earth had a greater effect on the latter half of the 20th century. He was also the first to warn Americans of the rise of the dreaded "military-industrial complex" -- which would come to dominate American society, politics, and economy for the next... um.. how many years has it been now?

5) Charlie Chaplin - (film) Film became the dominating art form of the 20th century, and Chaplin was its Renaissance Man. While others before him made equally important technical and artistic contributions (Lumiere & DeMelle), he was the first 'auteur' (blame him or praise him for that?); he was screenwriter, actor, director, cinematographer, and composer for many of his masterpieces.

6) Marcel Duchamp - (art) Don't start with me! There is no argument here. Duchamp anticipated virtually EVERY movement in modern and post-modern art, including the importance of 'marketing' one's personality and developing a 'mysterious' public persona for media consumption.

And every 'ism' of 20th century art that followed owes it's origins to Duchamp. I don't care what it is or when it's done: Duchamp already did it. Cubism, dadism, abstract expressionism, pop art, op art, conceptual... it doesn't matter. He is still somewhat underappreciated by the art world, but when historians and scholars have the benefit of objectivity and hindsight, Duchamp will be at the top of the pedestal of 20th century artists.

7) Charles Ives - (music) see Duchamp and replace "art" with "music". A great visionary and innovator who anticipated most future developments in music.

8) Sir Alexander Fleming - (science/medicine) This forgotten hero discovered how the body fought bacterial infections; he also discovered Penicillin, developments which probably saved literally millions of lives since.

9) Bucky Fuller - (thinker/visionary) - anticipated many 'modern' problems and their solutions way ahead of the pack. His emphasis on maximum effect with a minimum investment is something we've yet to fully explore, but it will come back to haunt humankind if we continue to ignore it.

10) Marshall McLuhan (thinker/visionary) - In a century dominated by electronic media, McLuhan anticipated the effects it would have on culture and thought processes. McLuhan's predictions are still turning up as contemporary truisms, despite the fact that he made some as early as the 1940s.

He invented the concept of the "global village", and many of his quotes and phrases have become cliches -- with users having no concept of their profound origins. His work laid the foundation for other important thinkers such as the late, great Neil Postman. Their analysis of the impact of media is still underestimated, much to the detriment of modern society.

...Duchamp anticipated virtually EVERY movement in modern and post-modern art...

except for macrame back in the 70's.

I read in a magazine one time that Henry Ford was anti- semitic. Is this true? I have avoided telling this to my Dad.Along with his vintage Ford's, he has a pcture of Henry Ford hanging in his garage.:0/

I need to go back to school and learn correct punctuation.

Ford was pretty wacky, to say the least, when it came to "jewish conspiracies". He publised the fake "Elders of Zion" and harbored a real fear/hatred for Jews in general.

Sorry for yer dad.

But don't forget: bad men can often do good things.

Marky Mark - I know you were joking but.. um... he had a piece called "Sixteen Miles of String".

I found a photo on the web, but the link timed out. If I can, I'll link to it later so you can grovel and apologize.

xxoo
S

well, i'll be danged...

i guess we won't get into the issue of whether macrame is 'art' or not.

Thanks, Shark. My Dad, his interest is in the automobiles themselves.I think the picture was given to him by someone who knew of his love for vintage Fords, and probably knew nothing about the anti-semitism either.

MY LIST OF (of what?)
1.
Pirates of the Caribbean 2 setting sail
Posted to Blogcritics by John Campea on 2003.08.19, 23:51:40 (1163 comments so far)
2.
The Top 100 Guitarists According to Rolling Stone
Posted to Blogcritics by The Theory on 2003.08.28, 12:33:26 (841 comments so far)
3.
Poll: Greatest Guitarist Of All Time
Posted to Blogcritics by Phillip Winn on 2003.09.09, 11:13:01 (613 comments so far)
4.
Ja Rule vs 50 Cent feud over?
Posted to Blogcritics by Marty Dodge on 2003.11.06, 07:13:05 (532 comments so far)
4.
From: CMU An interview between Nation of Islam minister Louis Farrakhan and Ja Rule was aired in the US yesterday,...
5.
What She Really Said
Posted to Blogcritics by Eric Olsen on 2003.03.21, 22:22:41 (433 comments so far)
6.
Janet Jackson's Super Bowl Titty Massacre aka Janet Jackson's career now officially dead
Posted to Blogcritics by Al Barger on 2004.02.01, 22:34:44 (331 comments so far)
7.
Evanescense - Fallen
Posted to Blogcritics by Phillip Winn on 2003.04.16, 12:49:45 (243 comments so far)
8.
Superbowl Halftime Bore
Posted to Blogcritics by Craig Lyndall on 2004.01.30, 09:03:59 (240 comments so far)
9.
Our happy hate crimes :)
Posted to Blogcritics by Al Barger on 2003.08.27, 22:18:32 (198 comments so far)
10.
New Superman movie moving forward. Unfortunately.
Posted to Blogcritics by John Campea on 2003.08.13, 16:26:15 (191 comments so far)

Marky Mark,

Check it out. Now THIS is some macrame!