There is a private high school in Dallas, Walt Whitman which was the subject of a documentary a while back on MTV.

It has struggled financially, something Harvey Milk/a> in NYC doesn't have to worry about as much.

In a better world, neither school would be needed. But I don't think one oasis for gay teen in NYC is too much to ask for.

There is an album, Wig In A Box, of Hedwig covers which will raise money for the Harvey Milk school.

This is an amazingly hot topic at the moment. I posted this on my site and the comments are flowing. I am really caught in the middle right now. I don't think segregation is a viable long-term solution for any problem, but I am starting to think that the immediate dangers and hardships make it necessary in the short-term. To think that gay kids just need to wait it out until we are more tolerant is a little silly, and unlike any other group, gay kids seem to be subject to violence.

Not just violence from others, but (having attended the high school in the nation with the highest suicide rate back in the late '70s) from themselves. A school for queer kids who want to attend a queer school could save lives, quite literally.

I am not pro-segregation of any kind, but from the post-40 vantage point , I look back on my teen years and, god, I would have given everything I had to be in a supportive place. I pray the Milk school will make high school a more positive experience for queer kids. It certainly was not for me. Anything but.

High School sucks for everbody, not just Gay Kids.

True. At the same time, take a look at suicide statistics. Visit the site of GLSEN and read the resource materials -- queer kids are at higher risk of suicide and more. Bigoted students and staff can be dangerous to these kids in myriad ways. As I said, segregation in general is not a good thing. For some queer kids, however, it may be their only shot. You would deprive them of this????

Wow, jump from some Suicide Stats to asking me if I want to deprive someone of something? Slow down, take a deep breath . . .

No one is depriving anyone of anything here. One of the points of High School, in my opinion, is to learn to deal with this stuff. The world and the people who populate it ain't perfect. If there is a problem, figure out how to solve it. By all means set up programs for kids for resources but to teach Kids that they have to be set apart b/c their feelings might get hurt?

It's bad when people are mean, but you are not "at risk" for suicide. It's something you CHOOSE for yourself.

Making fun of someone or being insensitive does not constitute a "danger" unless you're talking about beating people up. Even then, that's an ass-kicking, not a murder. Again, unfortunate and criminal, but rarely life threatening.

At that, a separate school might be desirable for some kids. Still, the segregation will strongly tend to reinforce feelings of isolation and alienation. What to do.

Man, it would have been awesome when I was younger if they had a school for chubby guys with glasses who listened to Iron Maiden. I would have been THE MAN!

There's a discussion of this right now on NPR's Talk of the Nation. The main argument for it is that this is only for those who wouldn't be getting an education otherwise: those with the most "stereotyped" appearance and behavior, many of whom had already dropped out, not for the general gay and lesbian population who are better off learning to deal.

I'm just wondering how you can deny access to non-gays with it being a public school...

Yes, but why would a non-gay person WANT to go to such a school - as a sociology experiment?

That's a good point: The school would only be attractive, I think, to those who can not attend school safely elsewhere. Plenty of queer kids survive regular high school, even if they hate it, even if it is only by the skin of their teeth. But many drop out. Others attend schools that refuse to provide resources to help GLBT students. Having a safe place for these cases fulfills -- or at least attempts to fulfill -- the social mandate to provide an education for all kids.

If this is a school mainly aimed at dropouts, I wonder how many people will drop out of it when they realize that they still will have hours of homework each night...

peace.

What a crock. Mr. Barger pointed out
that, "you are not "at risk" for suicide.
It's something you CHOOSE for
yourself." I believe that includes
what one eats, and wears, AND which
kind of WEE-WEE you decide to be
interested in playing with.

I do NOT and will NOT believe kids are
PREDISPOSED to homosexuality. It's an
"acquired" (lack of) taste, CHOSEN by
the individual, and alterable at WILL.
It is MY choice to be omnivourous, I
eat chicken AND veggies, beef and
bambi, bambi's mom and friends, and
most other (edible) forest plants and
animals.

I did not become a carnivore alone, my
parents and grandparents helped in
many ways. Left to my own devices, I
may have grown to subsist only on
fingernails and kindergarden paste.
But, regardless of the ORIGINS of my
tastes or lack thereof, I am free to
CHOOSE what fills my dinner-plate.
Even the Fed-Mommy doesn't make THAT
choice for us. (YET)

But surely, since there ARE those
who would grant animals "rights" above
humans, MY "kind" are entitled to some
basic "rights", and maybe some crappy
paper-tiger "laws", and a school or
two, in order to FORCE my choice of
paths taken upon the whole country.

Don'cha think?

There are some places, especially in the south, where African-Americans are still victims of violence by students who hold on to racial beliefs. Maybe we should set up separate schools for them, so they could feel safe. Oh wait, that's illegal! To segregate, even with good intentions, is the wrong answer. A private school can be setup on almost whatever grounds it wants, but public schools need to be just that, open to the public. If there is a threat or mistreatment of a gay student, it needs to be handle the way attacks against other races and nationalities are handled. If the ways issues are handled don't work, they need to be fixed. Segregating attempts to fix the results of the problem, not the cause of the problem. And it will lead to other equally valid reasons to segregate, like the racial example. We would be appalled if a city want to create a separate school for African-Americans on the grounds that kids were attacking them and being mean to them. We wouldn't want another school, we would want something done about the students who were doing the attacking.

The school should definitely be open to anyone. There shouldn't be a public school that discriminates among what students can attend. Not only is wrong and illegal, it just teaches kids that sometimes it okay discriminate.

By the way, reasons a non-gay students might want to intend, would include if they were interested in culinary arts, graphic arts, acting, computers, etc; and would like to attend colleges specializing in such areas. These are the things the school wants to excel in, and with the money the will receive in private donations added to want the city pays, they do have opportunity to be very good in these areas. The school is also aiming for 95% college acceptance rate. And, with it being a public school, students wouldn't have to pay anything extra to attend. It would be unbelievably wrong and unfair to do deny a student from attending because he wasn't gay.

It's not a matter of whether or not if a non-gay student would want to attend, it is the matter that a non-gay student could attend. In a public school, segregation can't be enforced.

Sometimes it is more than an "ass-kicking." Gwen Araujo was killed last year.

Some of the students at the Walt Whitman school have been straight.

There are some single sex public schools. They are controversial, but they have support from conservatives like Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison> who has said, "Every child in this country should be given the chance to reach his or her full potential. If a child or parent believes that there is a better chance of success in a single-sex classroom, then public schools should have the ability to provide that option."

Or be fair to everyone and, as already mentioned in the article, have a seperate school for "chubby" kids. How about a school for kids with glasses?>>

I think you need to recheck the definition of "fair". You're suggesting it would be fair to go with the presumption that 'chubby' kids and kids with glasses have as hard a time in high school as gay kids? That's funny, because I've never heard of Bible Thumpers (TM) saying it was a sin to be "chubby". I've never heard of someone with glasses being hung up and tied to a cross and left to die. I've never heard of people telling someone I love you, I just hate your glasses-wearing lifestyle. And I never heard of a "chubby" couple being bashed on the street for holding hands in public. And I'm sure if you were "chubby" but wanted to enlist in the military they could find some place for you, like a desk job or cook. If you're found out as gay it doesn't matter whether or not you don't dare to delve into bunk mating with "healthy" heteros, "Don't Ask, Don't Enlist" we don't want you fags. Speaking of which I've never heard guys saying that they have a problem with showering with anyone that wore glasses (can you take off your gayness the way you can take off your glasses before you step into the locker room showers?). I didn't realize that people are fighting to legalize marriage between two "chubby" people. I didn't know that Episcopalians and Anglicans were protesting the latest Bishop being confirmed because he wore glasses.

Sometimes people just shouldn't put their feet in their mouths. "Or be fair to everyone" indeed...

The glasses is a strech, yes, except in grade school. In grade school having glasses is an offence that requires mor than getting called "four eyes". However, being fat is no walk in the park.

peace.

Nobody ever bothered me in grade school about my glasses. I guess kids are more enlightened in Indiana.

Not necessarily. They're too busy picking on kids who move to Indiana from Kentucky to notice heavy kids or those wearing glasses.

Seriously, I kid because I love Indiana.

However, being fat is no walk in the park.>>

But I've never heard anyone label being fat as a "sin" or accuse fat people who want to live their lives with less torment and try to educate people as to the cruelty they go through in their daily lives of pursuing a "heavy-set agenda"

Also, never heard accusations of "promoting heavysexuality" if they show a fat person kissing someone on TV or in the movies.

actually, I was(am) fat, and growing up, dumbasses would say stuff to me like, "gluttony is a sin". grr. I was verbally beaten in grade and middle school, to the point of extremely low self esteem and suicidal for a bit. If only they had a school for me.....oh wait, I'm better off because of it.

I would like to know just exactly what IDIOT thought this up. This is one of the dumbest things that I have ever heard of.

I am one to definitely agree with Al Barger. All this is going to do is make it harder on the students who CHOOSE to have that type of sexual lifestyle. By creating a school "just for them" you are retarding their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to get used to the way they will be treated in life-AFTER highschool.

What next??? Are you also going to create a total gay union work force or something of that sort so that they aren't ridiculed at their job site? Doesn't make much sense does it?

I may only be 17 years old, but even I know that this is not the way life goes. I come across circumstances where people do not like me because of the things I
do or don't do, the things I know, think,
say or the people I choose to be around. There are a bunch of different reasons why people may choose not to like me or be my friend, but I have to learn to DEAL WITH IT. This will go on throughout my whole life and I don't think that I should transfer school's or job's just because some people have a problem with me for whatever reason.

If people who CHOOSE what their sexual preference is also CHOOSE to be open about it, they should know people in society will ridicule or treat them differently. In highschool, they will learn what it is like to deal with
such things.

In this highschool, they will have people holding their hand to help them with things, but the person or persons'
that were there with them to guide them will not be there to lead them AFTER THEY GRADUATE. Creating this segregated type of school is not a good thing my opinion. I see it as hurting them, not helping them. Why? You are doing them absolutely NO FAVORS.

Hey, thanks FOR THE BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS. It really helps get the point across.

You're too young to get married, kiddo. Tell Blake to chill out for a few years, maybe while you experiment with your sexuality.

actually, I was(am) fat, and growing up, dumbasses would say stuff to me like, "gluttony is a sin". grr. I was verbally beaten in grade and middle school, to the point of extremely low self esteem and suicidal for a bit. If only they had a school for me.....oh wait, I'm better off because of it.>>

Kewl. Good for you. Don't assume that what worked for you will work for everyone. BTW, anyone ever tell you you can't marry another fat person?

Really, don't push your heavy-set agenda on me. I mean I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home, but do you really need to flaunt it?

BTW, how exactly does years of torment make one better off?

And another thing... it's different for gay kids. Trust me.

years of tourment make one stronger. You should be able to marry whoever the hell you want. This is America and you should have that freedom. But withdrawing into a safe enviroment doesn't help gay people and it doesn't help tolerance.

Hey, thanks FOR THE BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS. It really helps get the point across.>>

LOL. Totally seconded. Do you think bold capital letters make your point any more valid, which in your case would be the least bit valid at all?

>>
All this is going to do is make it harder on the students who CHOOSE to have that type of sexual lifestyle.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Um, you're 17 year oldness is showing. First of all being gay is not a sexual lifestyle, and do you honestly think that if it was a choice people wouldn't put off this "choice" in high school of all places, where knowledge of this can literally mean the difference between life and death?

>>
By creating a school "just for them" you are retarding their ONLY OPPORTUNITY to get used to the way they will be treated in life-AFTER highschool.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

LOL, high school is the only opportunity for certain things... like participating in a junior prom, a senior prom, a senior cut day, a mosh-the-frosh day, and maybe to engage in some good old-fashioned underage sex. Is high school the only opportunity to get used to bigotry? ROFL. Hardly.

I notice one of the words you continue to put in bold caps is "choose". Smacking of self-affirmation, exactly who are you trying to convince that being gay is a choice. Others or yourself? I wonder...

>>
I may only be 17 years old, but even I know that this is not the way life goes.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You know it's so refreshing to hear from 17 year olds who think they know everything but really don't know crap. Not.

I'm beginning to think people are right that gay kids shouldn't be segregated. Instead it should be all the "I-know-everything" kind of kids that no doubt make the lives of everyone around them, gay or straight, a living hell. How much smoother life would run if they'd take just a week to put all the kids like that in the same room so they could realize how annoying and incredibly self-righteous they are.

Years of torment make one stronger.>>

Assuming one hasn't gone for prison for mass murder along the way. You know you think you're better for it, but I honestly say you're still suffering from it more than you know. You should reread what you said and actually look at how it sounds.

But withdrawing into a safe enviroment doesn't help gay people and it doesn't help tolerance.>>

Let's analyze this for a second. First all, you're going under the assumption that this is the experience of all gay people and that ALL the gay kids are "withdrawing into a safe environment". That assumption is... oh what was that word again? Oh, now I remember. WRONG.

The purpose of this school is designed with the same ideas in mind as are the US refugee policy from Cuba as opposed to other countries. If you're from Cuba they'll let you in under certain conditions. Other countries you're sent back. That's because the US knows what kind of repressive policies Cubans are suffering under back home.

For every gay kid that goes to this school there are 100 that stay where they are. Those 100 can do the work of "tolerance" while the one can stay in an environment and not say be so twisted up psychologically he'll go so far as to say something as stupid as "years of torment" is a good thing.

Not all gay kids have it the same.

Some are effeminate. Others are not.
Some are loud-mouthed. Others aren't.
Some are outed. Others manage to make it without being found out.
Some are white. Others are not. Studies are being conducted as we speak to show that queers of color have it rougher not just for obvious reasons but the fact that where it's "unacceptable" to be racist in modern American society, queers are open season and if you have a problem with the color or ethnic differences in someone who also happens to be gay you can treat them twice as bad without letting know the reason for being treated twice as bad.

If there are kids who prefer to stay where they are in a mixed environment, let them say. If there are others who are begging for somewhere else to go, they should also be allowed to, just as the US allows Cuban refugees onto its shores.

Let me repeat this once again so you understand this, Andy.

NOT EVERYONE is like you. Don't assume that just because you made it, everyone else will. Don't speak for people other than yourself. What you say was good for you (and listening to some of your statements I seriously doubt that) may not be good (indeed it could be devastating to the point of no return) for some.

For every Rupert Everett there's also a Jeffrey Dahmer. I'd like that we don't have to dissect people's brains after not only have their lifes been wasted but being driven past the point of sanity they've taken others' lives as well.

Thank you, Homaffectional!

They say what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. And for those who don't make it, be it via suicide or depression or taking their abuse out on others through violence, or whatever, too bad. If one believes in Darwin, that is probably cause for celebration.

It's a wonder I don't drink.

"By creating a school "just for them" you are retarding their
ONLY OPPORTUNITY to get used to the way they will be treated
in life-AFTER highschool.">>>>>>>
I should have said, "By creating a school "just for them" you are
retarding their EARLIEST OPPORTUNITY to get used to the way
they will be treated in life-AFTER highschool."

Nietzsche said "Whatever doesn't kill us can only make us
stronger."

Just because I am not fat or gay doesn't mean that I am not
entitled to my own opinion on different subjects. ALSO, just
because I'm not 50 doesn't mean that I don't get to have an
opinion.

What you have to say and the way you say it is what matters,
not the age of the person that it came from. I may not be gay
and in the same position of those who are, but I can still see
the way they are treated and the things that are done to them.
I definately don't agree with those such things, but I do
realze that there is NOTHING that is going to stop others from
feeling disgust against gay people. Most people will always
feel hate for them and you can't change that with anything
that you say.

If you haven't realized this yet, I am specifically speaking to
Homaffectional. You dissed on me because I am 17. I NEVER once
said that I "knew it all" and I don't feel that I do. I KNOW that
I have A LOT to learn in life and I don't appreciate someone
speaking about me as though they know me when they have no clue
WHAT type of person I am or how I really feel about certain things.

I am not one to be seen and not heard. If I have an opnion on
something, wether it be right or wrong, you will hear it reguardless
of if you like it or not.

Somehow I think kids in a gay high school will still have far too much of a chance to experience how they are treated in real life.

Many will be going to the school because they experienced too much real life already. And I imagine some classes will deal with this.

People don't seem to realize the Harvey Milk school has been around since 1984 and somehow the universe has managed to survive. Many students have graduated and become productive adults. The school is now just getting a building and expanding.

There has been an intelligent ongoing discussion of the Milk school at Silver Rights and other blogs. It is summarized here.

For the record, though I'm willing to listen to differing opinions, I pretty much agree with The Theory on this issue.

First and foremost, "Highschooler" has some valid points.
Her incorrect assertion that, "retarding their ONLY OPPORTUNITY
to get used to the way they will be treated in life-AFTER
highschool" doesn't negate it, merely re-phrasing the quote
to reflect early or EASY rather than "ONLY" would correct her
intimation.

"First of all being gay is not a sexual lifestyle, and do you
honestly think that if it was a choice people wouldn't put off
this "choice" in high school of all places, where knowledge of
this can literally mean the difference between life and death?"

Bullshit.

In fact, a specifically CHOSEN SEXUAL LIFESTYLE is exactly
what it is. Your inclinations ACTED upon are the ones that
show, unless you HIDE them and continuously do so. That, I
believe in the vernacular is known as "Being In The Closet".
A CHOICE.

A sad, weak, lack of self-control.

One is BORN black, white, red, yellow, or brown. One is BORN
MALE, or FEMALE. Whatever dysfunctions occur in the mind, or
persona, or "raising" of the child will HELP to distinguish the
eventual gender conformity, (or lack of) but the FACT is,
homosexuality IS a choice as clearly as the distinction
between carnivore and vegetarian. A CHOICE.

You CHOOSE whatever meat goes into your mouth, (or other bodily
orifices) or wherever/however you DECIDE to play "Hide the
salami". (With or without the salami!) Boy? Girl? Boygirl?
Attempting to justify dysfunctional gender identity as having
been "built in" just doesn't fly. I wouldn't hesitate to infer
MOST humans as Natural Born Killers. But you SELDOM hear the
accused murderer attempting to plead "couldn't help it, I was
born to kill". It wasn't my CHOICE.

The THOUGHTS to do harm by whatever means, to whatever person,
property, etc, occur in EVERYONE. But, only those who ACT upon
those thoughts bring the fire upon themselves. A BAD choice is
still a CHOICE.

What animal in all the world is BORN naturally predisposed to
attraction by it's own gender? In fact, there IS one, the male
giraffe! Only 1 in 3 or so will chase the females, the rest
chase males. But the NATURAL inclination of ALL species on the
planet is to PROCREATE. (That means make BABIES)

Adam and Steve can't DO that. In fact, NEITHER Adam NOR Steve
would even EXIST if Homaffectional's blitherings were correct.
Doesn't matter whether you believe Creation or Evolution, the
"Natural Order" includes the NATURAL desires and inclinations
of attraction to the OPPOSITE gender.

"There wouldn't be a single good ol' boy, if it wasn't for the
good ol' girls!"

I`m from mèxico and I want to studing english there. I like to you send me information about eanglish class, if you have class for no americans, please send cost and if you have where I can to live erly of the school. tank you for the information.

This is the most ridiculous idea I have ever
heard. Gay people have to have a seperate school
because straight people can not deal with
the scary concept of oh my god ! "GAY". They
have to be put in a seperate school like slow learners. This is a form of nazi ideology.

What does it all mean ?

I have thought about this gay straight
issue for a long time and I hate to say it
but I think there is something wrong with
the world we live in.

This issue is TWO years old. The Harvey Milk School has done a lot of good. I agree that it is a tragedy that we've had to go this far in protecting our gay youth. On the other hand, what do you expect? Society makes gay youth feel like second class citizens. Gay and lesbian bashing is silently accepted in schools across America. No matter what, gay youth are made to feel inferior when studies show that their capacity for intelligence exceeds the trash that beats upon them out of ignorance. Just as the ADA has mainstreamed handicapable kids into the system, we should be a civilized enough society to mainstream gay kids without the fear of retribution or damage. Oh, but I forgot, the Bible says we're an abomination. So, that makes queer bashing OK.

"Oh, but I forgot, the Bible says we're an abomination. So, that makes queer bashing OK."

You make a good point there Silas.....largely it seems the the only people who oppose the idea of an all-gay school are right-wing conservatives. Segregation isn't really a good thing, I mean we live in an open society so we do need to teach our children to assimilate and deal with the real world, however, as long as there are people who believe that homosexuality is an abomination, and pass that bigotry onto their children, an all-gay school seems to be a necessity for queer kids to learn in a positive and safe environment.

My question is this, if we're supposed to be such an intelligent society, why is it we can only tackle civil rights one minority at a time?

Beats me. Though I am white, I know discrimination first hand because my parents are deaf. As a kid in the early 60's being the child of deaf adults was not pleasant. People didn't understand the deaf community and viewed them as "deaf and dumb". Many kids were not allowed to come over or hang with us because our parents were considered 'retarded'. When I finally hit my teen years I had the whole gay thing to deal with. So there's two strikes. Not to mention a weight problem so three strikes and I was out. We also lived in a predominantly Protestant rural town where we were the only Roman Catholics around.

In my 20's I thought that it would be better to just live the straight life because I just was too tired of the discrimination and aggravation. Well, we all know how that turned out. Just watch "Far From Heaven" and you'll get the drift. It was a disaster and a good woman who deserved much better got the shaft by me. I was in my 30's when I finally dealt with my childhood sexual abuse. I mean over the years I kind of dealt with it but it all came to a head at the end of my 30's. Here I am at the crossroads, at the end of my 40's. It's been a long, hard journey. That which hasn't killed me only makes me stronger. I hate discrimination. I abhor ignorance and the failure to understand the other person's perspective. And above all I detest those who cannot compromise. The world is not a kind place. That's not God's or Mother Nature's doing, either. So, if I sound radical at times or over the top in my anger about discrimination of any kind -- now you have a bit of why I am the way I am.