Hey, where does Vanilla Ice come in on this list?

LMAO!

Thanks Michael, I strive to please.

I AM SOOOO WITH YOU ON THIS. KRS-1 is without question the GREATEST MC to ever touch the mike. I used to watch him all the time in Harlem and grew up with his music. Rakim is def my #2 pick also. Rakim's lyrics are often more profound but KRS-1 has versatility that can't be fathomed. I dont fault MTV with their polls cause they really dont give a damn they just report what the young kids say. Anyway, nice list.

M, your list is great and informative - I will have to follow up on some I am less familiar with, but I have never been as big a KRS fan as most real afficionados. It's probably me. He has just never had the songs I need to to really get into it, has never been "catchy" enough for my ears. I love Rakim, though, and for just pure flow, he's my fave.

Thanks CJones & Eric. It's really splitting hairs between the top 10 MCs, IMO. Good arguments can be made for any of them.

Eric, I can understand your feeling about KRS b/c feel somewhat the same about Eminem. I recognize his incredible talent, but most of what he rhymes about (on records) doesn't interest me. I think he really shines while freestyling. I've heard recordings of radio shows with him rhyming (freestyling) with other big name MCs, and Em put them to shame.

I have been disinclined toward Eminem on every level from the beginning, but I must now recognize his talent. I like him best when he is "catchy" also, a sucker for hooks.

I went to MTV2's website to see the tallys but up next they had the 22 Greatest Bands. The list was a pre-chosen selection of 22 and if this happened with the MCs I can see that the public was not really given a choice of charachters only of order. The forced selection is the only way I see Foxy Brown and Lil Kim being on the list.

Cal,

That's very interesting. I see a choice of 44 bands for the current poll. That may very well explain the results f the MC list, if it was done the same way.

Doug E Fresh should be higher. He damn near invented the "party flow" in hip-hop. In fact, where's Slick Rick? KRS-ONE should be second to Rakim. Rakim is the greatest MC of all time. You ever listened to those lyrics and flow in "Follow the Leader":

A furified freestyle, lyrics of fury
My third eye makes me shine like jewelry
You're just a rent-a-rapper, your rhymes are minute-maid
I'll be here when it fade to watch you flip like a renegade
I can't wait to break and eliminate
On every traitor or snake - so stay awake
and follow and follow, because the tempo's a trail
The stage is a cage, the mic is a third rail.

And the way he said those lyrics?? Da BOMB!

When I think of Mc's, I am thinking of, for the most part, a lyrical story teller. Stories being that which pulls you in mentally and emotionally. Lyrics being the rhyming scheme that pulls it together over music. Key factors for me would be: 1)what you are saying ties in to the overall point 2)difficulty and degree of rhyme because what you say is half as important as how you say it 3) Personality, you have to have the charisma to be noticed. Whats the use of a messenger who cant speak up 4) Creativity, no explanation needed I'm sure and lastly but certainly not least 5) Attitude, the core of Hip hop is attitude. Who you are, what you feel and letting people know it.

For those reasons I have to severely disagree with both lists. Where is Andre 3000 and Lauryn Hill and oo my gosh why dont people understand Dr. dre is a producer not an MC!! He should not be on MTV2's list nor honorable mention. A lot of these lists are usually blind to the actual judging factor: Lyrics. The Sugar Hill Gang were very influential in their role in bringing Hip Hop to the masses but lyricists they were not.

In no particular order some additions to the lists:
1. Lauryn Hill The Mask (The Score) then pick a song any song(who is probably the only female artist worthy of being in the top ten if not the top five)
2. Jay Z A Dream (Blueprint 2, The Blue Disc) before that 22 2’s(Reasonable Doubt)
3. Eminem Kill You (Marshall Mather LP) Dead Wrong (Born Again) Grotesque but brilliant
4. Busta Rhymes Pick a song any song
5. Mystikal Yall Ain’t Ready (Mind of Mystikal)
6. Scarface Pick a song any song
7. Cee Lo One For the Road (…Perfect Imperfections)
8. Black Thought The Seed (Phrenology)
9. Redman Pick a song any song
10. DMX Look Thru My Eyes (...Hell is Hot)
11. Andre 3000 Bombs over Bagdhad and then pick a song


I guess because lyrics touch people in different ways and MC's garner so many different styles there will always exist this debate as to who the greatests are...

Thanks Dew, very informative and an interesting position

S-Train,

In my opinion KRS gets a slight edge over Rakim b/c of his live performance skills. Of course I know that and every other Rakim lyric. But I can throw an equally ill KRS line at you for each Rakim one. And don't forget that Kris rock many different styles, including that reggae ish! I was just digging through some old Source magazines and came across their January 1998 issue. They had a 'Best of the Best' section in there. The results of three of their categories shows why Kris is #1 to me:

Greatest MC
1. Rakim
2 KRS-ONE
3. Biggie
4. Tupac
5. LL Cool J

Most Influential Rapper
1. Tupac
2. KRS-ONE
3. Rakim
4. Chuck D
5. LL Cool J

Best Live Performer
1. KRS-ONE
2. LL Cool J
3. The Roots
4. Puff Daddy
5. Tupac

Now to me, the fact that Kris came in at #1 or # 2 in each of those categories makes him clearly #1 overall. Again, to me, live performance is a HUGE part of being an MC. Note that Rakim didn't even make the top 5 there. Mind you, I'm in no way trying to slight Rakim. After all I do have him ranked #2 on my list.

Dew,

I totally agree with you about the importance of lyrics. I do have to take issue with your comments about Dr. Dre though. Yes he's better at producing than rapping, but he does rap. Dre has made significant lyrical contributions to two albums (Chronic & Chronic 2001) that have received the Source's coveted 5 Mic rating (only 42 albums have achieved that). So apparently he raps well enough for those albums to still be considered classics. He's also rapped on 2 to 4 others from that list. (I can't remember if he actually rhymed on the D.O.C.'s and Snoop's albums) Plus there are all the lyrics he spat on N.W.A.'s Niggaz4Life, Eminem's albums, singles with Ice Cube & Snoop, etc. So for you to say that he's not a rapper makes no sense. Now if you don't like his flow or the fact that he doesn't write his own lyrics... well that's a whole different discussion. So yeah, I put Dre on my honorable mention list, but if I were to rank that list he'd probably be at the bottom of it.

Hi Mike!! I agree his contributions have been pivotal but again I have to disagree. Dre doesnt write his own lyrics. I thought it was a well known fact that most if not all of his lyrics were ghostwritten. Cube wrote lyrics for Dre and Eazy, Snoop wrote majority of the lyrics for Chronic, Eminem and Jay Z are responsible for most of the Dre we know and love today. Don't think I hate Dre, quite the opposite, I just disagree that he belongs on anybodys MC list. Of course thats just my opnion. :-)

Like I said, the ghostwriting thing is a whole 'nother discussion. (And don't forget the D.O.C. in the list of Dre's writers!) And it's definitely a good enough reason to keep him off of any greatest MCs list. So I won't even argue that point. What I'd like to know is how many rappers write all their own lyrics. And I also wonder if the stigma attached to using ghostwriters will ever go away. Funny how we don't think less of singers who don't write their own lyrics.

Very true!! And by today (gross) pop standards we almost dont even expect it. I know I am almost surprised to hear a songwriter who sings and does so well (Queue: Alicia Keys, Avril Lavigne just to name two)

yo dude, your list is even more wack than mtv's....at least mtv has enough sense to know that 2pac is #1.......the very fact that u have biggie #3 and eminem #4 shows that you don't know what the hell u are talkin about......biggie aint even in the top 10 nigga, and eminem would be around 7 or 8 at the highest......u didnt even put canibus on your list.....canibus could freestyle circles around eminem and probably any mcee.......eminem is so much on pac's nuts it aint even funny.....ya, u has real talent....like bitin pac's 'hail mary' song and makin it sound like total trash.....a 10 year old could have made up better lyrics.....him and loose change are the corniest niggaz in the game......they all corny today.....ja rule, 50, em, jay-z, daz, all murder inc., all aftermath, all bad boy, all rockafella....they all wack ass sellouts who ride their own dicks......and fatso biggie would have never been heard of if it wasnt for pac.....pac trained the nigga......go back and study how biggie went from 'party and bullshit' to 'big poppa'....go look at that and tell me that aint pac's lyrics comin outta biggie's mouth......all that shit that biggie rapped about was pac's life......biggie never had bitches till he had money....that aint no playa, thats a trick.....that aint no poppa......pac shit on biggie more than anyone has ever been shit on in the history of hip hop and biggie never even came back wit one word.....why??, cause he couldnt....he knew everything pac was sayin was true.....he couldnt come back from it, so the easiest thing to do was to just act like he didnt know wat the fuck was goin on......turnin his back when he knew those niggaz where gonna fuckin blow pac's head off at times square.....those were biggie's fuckin homeboys who jacked pac....then pac goes to jail for guns that biggie and his fag crew left in pac's room....serial numbers scratched out and everything......u gotta have some balls to put that phoney fat motha fucka as #3 of all-time......and it wasnt kids who was votin on this shit nigga....if kids were votin, there aint no way pac would have been nowhere near 1st.....fags like ja, 50, em, jay-z, nelly, ludicrous, and all them niggaz would have been the top ones......wat fuckin kids know shit about pac???.....if they kids now, how old u think they were when pac was bangin 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago???.....they was like 4 years old nigga......and u go and put ll cool j up on there and not canibus.....lol, canibus blew that nigga out the game.....he tapped his fuckin ass.....where u been at b???....ll even came out and said that he was done battlin and that canibus won.....go listen to 'rip the jacker' 'second round ko' and shit like that.....canibus pissed on em too.....u think em is an mcee??....go to his concert and youll see nuttin but 12 year olds there, girls, and no niggaz.....that nigga is so psychotic, talkin bout rapin his mom, killin his wife, and all that wack shit.....he talks so much shit on kim, yet he went back wit her and is on her clit in real life......that scrap is nuttin but a joke.....motha fucka was on tlc and shit....he just tryin to get attention wit his cannibalistic, satanistic lyrics.....if pac was still alive, none of these niggaz would even be in the game......who in the hip hop industry has been bit off of the most ever???....2pac.....who doesnt bite off of him???.....how many niggaz have stolen his songs, his beats, his style, his image, his persona, his attitude??....how many niggaz be talkin bout they boys wit pac and they didnt even know him or pac hated them???.....ja, 50, em, gay-z, nas, master p, etc......niggaz only bite off people who are the dopest....pac was the dopest nigga to touch a mic, and thats why all these wack niggaz in the game have been on his nuts and bitin his shit since the day he died......show me anyone who bites off krs, rakim, biggie, eminem, mos def, or any other rapper in your dam list.....aint nobody bitin any of them cause they aint nuttin......rakim has even said he wishes he worked wit pac.....all these niggaz wish they could be pac......recognize and realize kid

Maybe you'll see more clearly when you detach yourself from Tupac's nuts. (nice e-mail address. Did you copy Tupac's tattoo too?) You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and clearly many people agree with you. I just happen to see it differently. You Tupac lovers are funny though. You get all fired up over somebody who doesn't think he's number 1. How did he brainwash you all? You probably think he's still alive too, huh? Move on man, he's gone. Life goes on. And while you're at it, how about cleaning up your langugage when posting to a public forum? Do you think you can use the word 'nigga' even more?

Crikey Joe, why don't you just dig Tupac up so you can fellate his corpse? Perhaps you could take some of this up with a qualified psychologist.

Note that the neither the words "music" or "song" nor "melody" came up anywhere in this diatribe.

100 years from now, no one will remember Tupac, or frankly more than a couple of names off any of these MC lists. Most educated people will, however, know Prince, Miles Davis and Duke Ellington. See, they are MUSICIANS.

Tupac, on the other hand, was just another thug dumbass. There's no shortage of those. Tupac was certainly no musician, neither playing an instrument or being even vaguely a serious composer. The guy wouldn't have known a TUNE from tuna fish.

Of particular silliness was Joe's claim about MTV's poll not being legitimate because it doesn't represent what the "kids" would have picked. So illiterate teens and pre-teens would be the proper objective authority as to what constitutes good music? What kind of stupidity is that?

Again, not to put too fine a point on it, but this kind of foolishness passes for music discussion an appallingly large percentage of the time among rap fans. Joe takes it way out there, but what are you going to talk about with Biggie and Tupac except some cheap sociological crap about being "real" or "authentic"?

Generally, there is precious little to discuss of a MUSICAL nature. Unless they've got some old dude feeding them records, I'm afraid most kids today wouldn't know a SONG if it came up an bit them in the ASS. This goes for Marilyn Manson and metal retards as much as for rap, to be fair.

Goddam, but I'd like to see Lamont Dozier bring the pimp hand down on 50 Cent.

lol, yall better show some respect to the master and stop hatin on a nigga......yo mikey, i dont think pac is alive and i know life goes on.....who is the one that said that???....oh ya, thats right, 2pac did!!.....you using some of his lines aint ya??....lol, see even you haters cant not be influenced by pac

and for my mentally challenged friend al, first off pac was cremated not buried, so i think i would have a hard time diggin him up you moron.....second, you say in 100 years no one will remember pac??....lol, that just shows how ignorant you really are.....pac is a legend and he is the hip hop industry and always will be....500 years from now u will have niggaz still bitin off his shit......and for u to call pac a "dumbass thug" u are just a really ignorant and arrogant prick.....pac had more brains than u will ever know boy....he is the most articulate mcee to ever live......he could write whole songs in 5 minutes.....he made 2pacalypse Now in 3 fuckin days asshole....in 5 years he wrote more than 600 songs and he has more songs written than any motha fucka in the industry...and he did it in 5 years.....all these other losers are in the game for 15, 20 years and still take 2 or 3 years to put out an album and it is still wack......u wouldnt last one day in his shoes.....he had the hardest life anyone could possibly have and he went from bein on welfare to bein a multi millionaire.....he was raised by a crack feign mother and never had any guidence in his life.....he never bit his tongue for nobody and went out the way he wanted, on top of the industry in the glimmer of everything.....he lived a 70 year live in 25 years.....he was the malcolm x of this generation and he was killed just like malcolm and martin luther king were....because they were all activists and spoke their mind regardless of wat the consequences were......pac was gunned down by the feds cause he was startin to take over everything....they didnt want no black panter decendant raisin hell like he was.....niggaz tried to kill him 2 years before that and he survived 5 shots and went against all odds and came back bigger and badder than ever.....u go and take 5 shots, get set up by ya homeboys, go to jail for a bullshit sexual assault charge, get abandoned by everyone u thought was ya rolldog and then come talk to me.....u couldnt survive one shot and u wouldnt last a day in prison, not to mention a maximum security prison like riker's.....and then come out and sell 10 million plus on your first album after gettin outta jail.....makin the first ever double cd in the history of hip hop....than after your death lets see u put out an album every year for ten plus years and go at least 2x platinum without any media or publicity to plug the albums.....how many albums has fatso biggie put out since his death???....how many has eazy-e put out??...how many has big pun put out??......there are fuckin classes on 2pac at fuckin harvard, yale, berkley, and like 20 other high profile colleges in the nation.....the top colleges in the country got classes on pac...and u think that these colleges would make a class on a "dumbass thug"??....u need to check yaself kid cause u just talkin out ya ass and bein disrespectful and hatin

I stand by what I said earlier... detach yourself...

And to compare Tupac to ANY of our great Black leaders is just ridiculous. What did Tupac do to bring about change in society? What organization did he start? What social issues did he take a stand for? Do you know how silly you sound? The last thing we need is fools running around molding themselves in Tupac's image.

It appears that Joe has already looked into my fellatio suggestion. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

Again a long screed about how great Tupac was without a single word having to do with MUSIC.

As to 500 songs, it ain't the quantity but the quality. Steve Allen supposedly wrote 5,000+ songs- but not one of those that I've heard was worth a second listen. In fairness, I suppose I'd given Allen and Tupac credit for being industrious, having a good work ethic.

Also, please learn to write sentences, with, ya know, paragraphs and grammar and such before you call ME "ignorant" or "mentally challenged." It'll carry more weight.

Finally, the-feds-killed-Tupac is just a really dumb thing to say. There's absolutely no evidence of any such thing. Further, there's absolutely no conceivable reason why they'd want to.

Mikey, you ask what did Pac do for society, and what social issues did he stand for, and what organizations he started? Ok, let's see. For all young American Americans, and pretty much the youth in America, Pac showed them how you can come from nothing and be something. He sent the message to all the ghettos throughout the nation where kids are in poverty, come from a broken home, have drug problems, etc. He stood for black America and he was the closest thing this generation has come to having a Malcolm X.

Pac for going to start all of these youth group programs if he didn't die. He had plans to have a youth group organization called 'Nothing Gold'. He was also very much into politics. He said in the 2000 election that he was going to be heavily involved with a political group.

Just because he died an untimely death and never had the chance to do these things doesn't mean you can say he never did anything.

Him and Suge and Deathrow would always give annual Thanksgiving charity shows and give presents to all the youth in Compton. In fact, the night he was shot, him and Suge were on their way to Club 662 to raise money for the 'stop the violence' program. Pretty ironic huh?

And "the last thing we need is a fool running around molding themselves into Pac's image," is that what you said? Hmmm, you should go tell that to Ja Rule, 50 Cent, Eminem, Nelly, Blachaze, DMX, Nas, Daz, Kurupt, Jay-Z, and all the rest of the rap industry that continues to "mold themselves into Pac's image."

And my dear friend Albert, if you think that Pac's songs are of no quality, then you have no idea what quality MUSIC is partner. There, I said the word music, now you can get off that played out line of yours.

And you say the Feds have no reason to kill Pac and that there is no evidence to support it? Really? It's funny how plenty of experts involved in Pac's death have written books about how much evidence there is to support the claim that the Feds killed Pac. And what other evidence is there to support some other bogus theory? The Feds killing Pac is just as valid as any other theory. Let me guess, you think 'Suge shot him'. Lol, and Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy too, right? Lol, spare me.

p.s. Is my grammar and sentence structure up to your par now? I am a senior at Rutgers University on a Provost Scholorship and I am in the Honors College and in the College of Pharmacy. So don't even think for a minute that you are more educated then I am son. You are probably not even in college.

Rutgers???? LMAO!!!!!!!!

It's funny when these people call 'Pac a "dumbass thug" Hahaha. Do you even know how smart this man was. He was raised by a black panther so ofcourse he was going to grow up with education all around him. At the age of 17 his convo's were more intellengent than your's would ever be! 'Pac read a number of books over and over and non of that "hop on pop" shit. Before going around and calling pac a "dumb thug" do some research and while your at it, research his music to.

Intelligent is one of the worst words to misspell. Anyway, Joe, what I'd really be interested in knowing is if you could provide any links to the multitude of college courses at prestigious universities (hell, even Rutgers) about Tupac, or any of the numerous volumes written about how the Feds were involved in killing him?

I am a senior at Rutgers University on a Provost Scholorship (sic) and I am in the Honors College and in the College of Pharmacy.

It's about time you stopped frontin' like you're all hard core.

For all young American (did you mean African?) Americans, and pretty much the youth in America, Pac showed them how you can come from nothing and be something. He sent the message to all the ghettos throughout the nation where kids are in poverty, come from a broken home, have drug problems, etc. He stood for black America and he was the closest thing this generation has come to having a Malcolm X.

Please, that's been done time and time again. He also showed America how being belligerent and living the 'thug life' can get your ass shot and/or locked up. I don't see the similarity to Malcolm at all. Maybe he was similar to Malcolm Little, but certainly not Malcolm X nor El Hajji Malik Shabazz. Maybe you need to take some Black history courses.

Pac for going to start all of these youth group programs if he didn't die. He had plans to have a youth group organization called 'Nothing Gold'. He was also very much into politics. He said in the 2000 election that he was going to be heavily involved with a political group.

Just because he died an untimely death and never had the chance to do these things doesn't mean you can say he never did anything.

And I plan to be richer than Bill Gates. When you sign up for that Black history course jump in a logic class too. Let's examine what you just said -- 'Just because he never did those things doesn't mean that you can't say he didn't do those things.' Bruh... what kind of pharmaceuticals are you cooking up over there? I'm worried for you.

Him and Suge and Deathrow would always give annual Thanksgiving charity shows and give presents to all the youth in Compton. In fact, the night he was shot, him and Suge were on their way to Club 662 to raise money for the 'stop the violence' program. Pretty ironic huh?

OK, he fed some people on Thanksgivings... doesn't make him a great leader. And yes, the 'stop the violence' thing is very ironic seeing how they had just caused a big fight at the hotel. But again, so they were gonna make an appearance at a charity event... doesn't make him a great leader. Damn near every celebrity does those type of things.

And "the last thing we need is a fool running around molding themselves into Pac's image," is that what you said? Hmmm, you should go tell that to Ja Rule, 50 Cent, Eminem, Nelly, Blachaze, DMX, Nas, Daz, Kurupt, Jay-Z, and all the rest of the rap industry that continues to "mold themselves into Pac's image."

Yeah, that's what I said. I don't give a damn what those other rappers are doing. I'm talking about the youth of America. We don't need more Black kids running around with the 'thug life' mentality. We need them in college and being productive.

It's funny to me how you Tupac lovers can get so fired up over somebody not thinking he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He was a good rapper. The fact that he's even on my list means that I think very highly of his skills as a rapper. But he wasn't the best in MY opinion. All that other shit has nothing to do with his skills as an MC. I'd put KRS up against anybody live on stage & they'll get tore up!

(Another) Joe,

There actually are several courses about Tupac in universities. Here's a story about one of them.

whoever disrepected tupac by saying that he is not a musician is a fool. You must be white. He was musician and he made millions, dont be mad because he was the most loved rapper of all time and Duke Ellington wasn't. And by calling him a thug dumbass, i bet if you met him face to face, you wouldnt call him a thug dumbass right son?? I thought so. And one more thing, dont disrespect the dead like that. They can't defend theirselves stupid ass.

Cool! Thanks for the link. It isn't quite the same thing as the other Joe said, but it is interesting.

MOB,

whoever disrepected (sic) tupac by saying that he is not a musician is a fool. You must be white. He was musician and he made millions, dont be mad because he was the most loved rapper of all time and Duke Ellington wasn't. And by calling him a thug dumbass, i bet if you met him face to face, you wouldnt call him a thug dumbass right son?? I thought so. And one more thing, dont disrespect the dead like that. They can't defend theirselves (themselves) stupid ass.

You guys are clowns. Spend more time learning how to write and less time riding on Tupac's sack. But you want to call people stupid... simply amazing. And why in the world would Duke Ellington ever be considered a rapper? Come on bruh, at least make some sense if you're gonna step up in the convo. And I'm not trying to dis Pac, but without a gun, he posed no threat. That's just real.

MOB, that was ME saying that Tupac was no kind of musician. Yes indeed, I am SO white. My people is crackers from the hills of Kentucky.

So how does this go, I'm supposed to be intimidated because you and Tupac are scary Negro thugs? For starters, any little punk ass can sit at home typing threats on their keyboard. My best theory is that MOB is a disgruntled lesbian venting her penis envy. Just guessing.

2pac to me has to be number 1 on this list. He was the most influental and wrote the greatest and most heartfelt lyrics rap has ever heard. Now i agree MTV screwed up the list in some areas. I just think saying KRS-ONE is number 1 is bullshit. Now I love KRS hes definitely one of the greatest but what did he ever write in his lyrics that came close to the emotion and poetry that 2pac had? 2pac may not rhmye as good as Rakim but hes a better rapper because of what he was saying and the messages he was trying to give his fans. Nobody can touch 2pac when it came to having the whole package. He is the greatest rapper in my opinion. Also whoever said 2pac was just a dumb ass thug is more ignorant then I thought. 2pac was so smart its not funny. He was so talented and was a great man regardless of him being a thug. The media and all those white people who grew up in the 60s never understood him and they portrayed him as some sort of demon. He was far from it. Anyone that says he is talentless or his songs have no quality is so full of shit and obviously knows nothing abouty hip hop. So all im saying is u dont have to bump his music but dont hate what u dont understand and respect him for having talent and wanting to make a difference while he was here. R.I.P to 2pac... I dont want to hear anyone say im on his nuts cus ur real ignorant to say that..

haha very funny. you farm boys are just mad because your music is not selling at all. No one wants to hear about cows and getting a bucket of water from the nearest well. You guys are jsut ignorant and it shows. Living in Kentucky or whatever white little town is jsut stuck in their little tractor and cowboy lifes. I laugh at your stupidity and ignorance, and my best theory is that Al Barger is a little white farm boy who married his own cousin when she was 13 and lives in a tralier with 3 dogs and still has a mullet. Loser.

First off, any of you who are making fun of Rutgers can kiss my ass. You jackasses couldn't get accepted to Rutgers if you sucked off the Dean. Not to mention, you assholes are probably not even old enough to be in college.

Mikey, you really need to stop correcting every little punctuation/grammar mistake that everyone makes. This isn't a term paper or anything of importance where you need to flawlessly type. Just because your ass goes and spellchecks what you write before you post it, doesn't make you Einstein.

Oh, and you really need to get glasses because you are quoting things from me that I never wrote. 'Just because he never did those things doesn't mean that you can't say he didn't do those things.' You show me where I ever wrote that crap. I believe I said, "Just because he died an untimely death and never had the chance to do these things doesn't mean you can say he never did anything." Bigggg difference from the crap that you claimed I wrote. I was saying how just because he never got a chance to do the things he was planning to do, you can't say that he never did anything for society. If Malcolm X was shot dead at 25 he never would have been known to anyone. He was a drug dealer when he was 25. So in reality, Pac was much more than Malcolm, considering he was way above Malcolm when they were both 25.

And you say that without a gun Pac posed no threat? He would whoop your ass in 5 seconds kid so just shut the hell up. He called out that faggot Chino XL and that pussy bitched out. Pac stepped to Biggie backstage at the Soul Train Music Awards and Biggie's bodyguard had to come to his rescue. I never saw Pac get his ass beat and I never heard of anyone callin Pac out. So I really don't know where you come up with this crap that Pac is no threat without a gun.

And now that I know Albert is a redneck from Kentucky (and no doubt a racest), I am not even going to address your ass anymore.

haha very funny. you farm boys are just mad because your music is not selling at all. No one wants to hear about cows and getting a bucket of water from the nearest well. You guys are just ignorant and it shows. Living in Kentucky or whatever white little town it is, stuck in their little tractor and cowboy lifes. I laugh at your stupidity and ignorance, and my best theory is that Al Barger is a little white farm boy who married his own cousin when she was 13 and lives in a tralier with 3 dogs and still has a mullet. Loser. And why do you even bother to question me? You know that you are going to lose because more are on my side dumbass. Just to let you know. now just carry on and go back to the farm house to milk some cows ok son??

Joe, now really, am I supposed to be impressed by your silliness? Any retard can act all tough and shake his fist. That thug crap won't get you anywhere with the crackers down here on the farm. It'd just get your black (or white or yellow) ass shot.

It's just as well that you don't presume to address your betters, ie ME. You have nothing actually valuable to say. You obviously neither know nor care anything about music. This display of ignorance, your poor use of language and your cheap thug talk only lend credence to negative black stereotypes. Noticing that does not constitute racism.

Now I love KRS hes definitely one of the greatest but what did he ever write in his lyrics that came close to the emotion and poetry that 2pac had? 2pac may not rhmye as good as Rakim but hes a better rapper because of what he was saying and the messages he was trying to give his fans.

Corey,

Since you claim to be a fan of Kris, you know that he wrote about many different subjects and has a huge catalog of songs. He ranges from metaphysics to that gangsta shit (See 9mm). And he sure dropped more knowledge than Tupac. But no, Kris didn't have as much emotion as Tupac, but he sure had poetry & lyrics. But that's just part of the package. Kris has incredible stage presence. And nobody can switch styles like he does. Its his live shows that puts him over the top in my book. You guys talk about rappers biting Tupac, Kris provided so many styles to the game it isn't even funny.

We could throw lyrics at each other all day, but since you asked about KRS-ONE's lyrics here are just a few songs:

Poetry, 9mm Goes Bang, Bridge Is Over, Criminal Minded, My Philosophy, Stop the Violence, Illegal Business, I'm Still #1, Blackman In Effect, Ya Know The Rules, House Nigga's, Love's Gonna Get Cha' (Material Love), 100 Guns, Edutainment, The Homeless, 30 Cops Or More, Why Is That?, Blueprint, Jack of Spades, Who Protects Us from You?, You Must Learn, Bo! Bo! Bo!, Duck Down, Drug Dealer, Like a Throttle (check the style(s) and the lyrics!), Build and Destroy, Ruff Ruff (Kris said it back in '92: Everybody wanna be a gangsta... but don't know nuthin about being no gangsta...), Outta Here, Black Cop, Brown Skin Woman, Rappaz R. N. Dainja (The style that I am kickin' is like chicken... it will be bitten, rewritten...), MC's Act Like They Don't Know, Health, Wealth, Self (lyric check!)...


Go back and listen to those and check the lyrics. Better yet, just check his live CD.

Also, why are y'all so impressed with some bogus college course about rap or Tupac? Do you really need the white man's colleges to validate your culture? What the hell does some Harvard professor know? He ain't from the street like Tupac or Vanilla Ice.

Just because your ass goes and spellchecks what you write before you post it, doesn't make you Einstein.

You're the one trying to show how smart you are b/c of your little 'Scholorship' (sic) at your little school.

Oh, and you really need to get glasses because you are quoting things from me that I never wrote. 'Just because he never did those things doesn't mean that you can't say he didn't do those things.' You show me where I ever wrote that crap. I believe I said, "Just because he died an untimely death and never had the chance to do these things doesn't mean you can say he never did anything." Bigggg difference from the crap that you claimed I wrote.

You sure are dense. If you'll notice, I pasted your exact quote above and then I paraphrased you. Maybe they haven't taught you about paraphrasing in your remedial English class yet.
I was saying how just because he never got a chance to do the things he was planning to do, you can't say that he never did anything for society. If Malcolm X was shot dead at 25 he never would have been known to anyone. He was a drug dealer when he was 25. So in reality, Pac was much more than Malcolm, considering he was way above Malcolm when they were both 25.

The logic is sorely lacking! You have no idea WTF Tupac would have done had he lived. You're the one that brought up the Malcolm comparison, but now you want to qualify your ridiculous statement. So what you're now saying is that b/c Tupac was better than a drug dealer at 25 he's a great person. Nonsense. Tupac was an entertainer, nothing more. You need to be smacked for even making such a claim.

And you say that without a gun Pac posed no threat? He would whoop your ass in 5 seconds kid so just shut the hell up. He called out that faggot Chino XL and that pussy bitched out. Pac stepped to Biggie backstage at the Soul Train Music Awards and Biggie's bodyguard had to come to his rescue. I never saw Pac get his ass beat and I never heard of anyone callin Pac out. So I really don't know where you come up with this crap that Pac is no threat without a gun.

You love you some Tupac huh? I'm starting to think that you two really were lovers. I guess you were an eyewitness to all these alleged incidents. Oh, but wait, you were only what, 13 when all these things jumped off. Laying up in your bed having nocturnal emissions while dreaming about your lover Pac... Come on man, it's not like Pac was a physical threat. He was what 5' 6" and 140 lbs? ha!

Try 5'9-5'10 165, still small but bigger than your 5'6 140 shit. Plus pac had the fire and was one crazy muthfucka.

And look where it got him

Judging by the quality of his arguments and his use of the language, if Joe is even in a community college then he must be an affirmative action admission.

You 2 faggots are getting blown up by every other motha fucka in this bitch. You wanna keep beefin and gettin your dumbass shit on, keep it up.

Yo Mikey, how old are you? 40 or something? You saying that I am young and shit and I am 21. And your pety, immature comments show your real intelletual side.

And sayin that 2pac was 5'6 140 (which is just another ignorant comment) doesn't mean shit bro. You actually think it matters how tall or how much someone weighs for them to be tough? Lol, dam you stupid. A nigga can be 5'5 and beat the shit out of someone who is 6'2.

And you think I need to be an eyewitness in order to know something? Lol, if that was the case then nobody would know anything about this world. All the news you hear every fuckin day, do you witness that first hand bro? Nah, but you believe it though dont ya? You never witnessed a man walk on the moon, so I guess that never happened did it? You never saw the Civil War saw I guess that never took place right? These books and historians have to be wrong dont they? Lol, you stupid.

Oh, and 3 years ago when I was a freshmen I took Honors English Comp. 101 and 102, and got A's in both of them. If you want I can give you the names and numbers of my professors and you can ask them. Just go to Rutgers.edu, go to Find People, and type in their names. You will get what subjects they teach, their email address, and their number. My 101 professor was Mrs. Radetich and my 102 professor was Ms. Timmerman.

And for Fat Albert, keep hatin bro. I can only speculate, but you are probably 18 or so (if that) and you are most likely fuckin your cousin. Did you take your cousin to the prom? Did you even graduate high school or did you drop out like the dumb redneck that you are? How do you even have a computer when you live in a trailer park?

2pac wasnt a gangster for everyone who thinks he was, he even said himself he wouldnt fight or kill others for the colors they were.

He was a great person and had meaningful songs, go listen to this list of his songs, or atleast read the lyrics, he said political lyrics, and his deep feeling:

Words of Wisdom
Brendas Got A Baby
Part Time Mother
I Dont Give A Fuck
Keep Ya Head Up
Me Agaisnt The World
So Many Tears
Dear Mamma
Can U Get Away
Life Goes On
Shorty Wannabe A Thug
wonder Why They Call U Bitch
Blasphemy
Krazy
White Mans World
Hold Ya Head
Do 4 Love
I Wonder If HEaven Got A Ghetto
Changes
Only Fear of Death
Unconditional Love
Letter To The President
Still I Rise
Baby Dont Cry
As The World Turns
The Good Die Young
Teardrops & Closed Caskets
U Can Be Touched
Letter To My Unborn
Happy Home
Until The End of Time
This Aint Livin
Never Be Peace
Mamas Just A Little Girl
Thugz Mansion
Never Call You Bitch Again
Better Dayz
Who Do You Beleive In
They Don't Give A Fuck About Us

and there are so many more, and so many unreleased songs.


Do you know that pac didn't tel lyou alot of things? These are thigns his family, and home videos show that pac didn't want out becasue he didn't want people thinking he was doing it to look good.

2pac made the driver of a car turn around, missed his flight, to go see a little girl in the hospital who was attacked by 2 pitbulls.

He let many homeless peopel stay in his house (this is on home video), he gave them showers, food, clothes & helped to give a job.

He went to the bedside of a dying kid whos dream it was to meet 2pac, he named his record production after him (not his record label) "Joshuas Dream", pac wasn't racist, this kid was white (for those who say he was racist)

He also was once smoking outside and a little girl saw him and he put it out and told her it was there secret and he was sorry and that she should never smoke or do drugs (i think shock g said this???)

He also gave to many charities.

He was gonna start a thing were kids who were passing school with a C or above could come playsports, get a concert, have fun, and manye more things. He also said every time his Makaveli CD went platinu he was gonna give a certain amount of the million to different charitys (sadly, hedied and i dont know if greedy suge did it then cuz pac wasnt here)

"Sister 2 Sister: What about your house in Atlanta?

Tupac: I gave the house to Kato's family. He was a gangbanger in Atlanta who got murdered in front of his home in L.A. We went to amusement parks. I wanted his family to move to Atlanta from South Central. My family didn't appreciate the house. I got a lot of family to take care of."

see he cared about a persons family that he didnt know (he wasnt a friend of pacs)

2pac didnt habe to tell you everthing he did good just so you can think "he is such a great personj" like all thease other celebs do.

2pac was gonna give certain amount of money to poor people everytime Makaveli went platinum, it went 5 times platinum like hi last 3 records, but this time he wasnt there to see it cause he died a few months before its release, I dont know if the money thing still happend

2pac wanted to change the world, but we all know thats immpossible, so did he, but he tried to change as much as he could.

He was a little more angry when he got out of jail early because he didnt do the crime, he was in jail 11 months yes he was mad and he let it go on records. Him dissing BIG the way he did was the only thing wrong pac did in his career, he contradicted himself that time and he admitted to it, it was how he felt, we all condratict ourselves.

2pac said thug to him ment someone who came up poor and huslted to live. He did come up poor, he didnt sell drugs or kill, he worked at pizza places and then he became famous.

2pac was more than you think, watch 'Thug Angel" its a good DVD on his life.

"they got money for war but can't feed the poor"- 2pac

"did you ever stop and think, I'm old enough to go to war but I aint old enough to drink"- 2pac

"THUG LIFE- The Hate You G.ave Little Infants Fucks Everybody, meaning what you give us as infants grows and blows up in your face"- 2pac


With all this extra stressin'
The question I wonder is after death I feel my last breath
When will I finally get to rest from this oppression?
They punish the people that's askin questions
And those that possess
Steal from the ones without possessions
The message I stress
To make it stop study your lessons
Don't settle for less
Even the genius asks questions, be grateful for blessings
Don't ever change
Keep your essence
The power's in the people and the politics we address
Always do your best
Don't let this pressure make ya panic and when ya get stranded
And things don't go the way ya planned it
Dreaming of riches
In a position of makin' a difference
Politicians are hypocrites
They don't wanna listen
If I'm insane
It's the fame made a brother change
It wasn't nothin' like the game
It's just me against the world
-2pac (Me Against The World)


R.I.P Tupac Amaru Shakur

Okay I really don't know no KRS but he sounds like a hater to me. He is just mad bacause Nelly is the shit now and he ain't. Why did he have to pick a beef with Nelly? Nelly was just having fun minding his own business and KRS came alone and started picking on him forno reason. I think that he just picked a beef with somebody that he knew was hot at the time and was probably doing more than he was and just got mad.

I'm SO impressed with your ghetto talk, Joe. You want it both ways- you want to talk like a tough guy from the hood, yet you CLAIM to be a scholar and an honors student in English.

I don't believe this for a minute, though. As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you were some kind of academic, you would be a better writer. Crikey, you can't even SPELL, let alone write.

If you were any kind of smart guy, you could come up with some more creative insults than the extremely tired incest theme.

You exhibit no knowledge of music, English language, logic or manners. Is there anything you DO know about?

I don't have to prove shit to you duchebag. I know what I am capable of doing and I know the truth about myself. I have no reason to lie about anything over the internet to some jackass that I don't even know who lives in the hick state of Kentucky. I am not looking to impress you with anything. I don't give a flying fuck what you say or think about me. If you think you phase me in the least then you are sadly mistaken kid.

Ah, spoken like a true scholar, Joe.

Please do not try to speak intelligently al barger, because there is no way that a farm boy can speak like that. I mean with no education, id have to say that you are a racist, and thats ok, because with your lack of outside knowledge, it is sad to see that this still goes on today. It's shamful, but I understand. You do not know better. you do not have anything remotely valuable to say because no one care what you say. Such disgrace to you young man, its a shame. I feel sorry for you.

Really MOB, you and Joe need to get some new material. I can take a joke, and I don't even mind a hostile insult. Still, I would hope that even gutter trash could come up with at least slightly creative put downs. You may not have any education or manners, but I would hope that Daddy would have at least taught you how to play the dozens. Or didn't he stick around long enough for that?

Frankly however, I don't expect much better out of most rap fans. Your prefered listening speaks to a cheap ghetto mentality of incoherent rage, belligerence and cheap racial hatred to compensate for your own internal feelings of inferiority.

Here's the thing though: your dumb racial insults don't faze me, nor would they bother most white folks. I like myself just fine, thank you, and silly stuff about incestuous crackers rolls right off my back.

If I used any of the obvious put downs for black folk, on the other hand, you'd be furious. This is because you believe them yourself at some level.

Based on your behavior in this discussion over the last couple of days, you and Joe SHOULD feel the sense of self-loathing and shame implied in your postings. You have been, as Hannibal Lecter would say, unspeakably rude.

Your crappy attitude makes me not care about your little wounded egos. I'm really a sweet guy with great wells of empathy, but I do not have a martyr complex. Therefore, like any normal person, if you're shitty with me, I'm going to end up kicking you back into the gutter from whence you came.

Boys, I think I hear your mamas calling you.

ALBERT: "Here's the thing though: your dumb racial insults don't faze me, nor would they bother most white folks. I like myself just fine, thank you, and silly stuff about incestuous crackers rolls right off my back."

LOL, taking my lines now, are you? Can't come up with your own shit so you bite mine. Figures.

And the only gutter trash is you. I bet my car costs more than the shack you call home. Not to mention, expenses in Kentucky are probably half as much as they are up here in Jersey.

I wouldn't brag about hailing from New Jersey. No disrespect intended to the Garden State, but it's just a state, and in many parts, a smelly one. I used to live in Kentucky myself. Darn pretty state, Kentucky.

Joe, I'm dropping knowledge here- if you were smart you'd be taking notes. Got a pen handy? Here's you a valuable new lesson, G-

This business of bragging about how expensive your car is reeks of the ghetto mentality. When you speak like this, educated and aware people will see it as low class. It's a shame-based personality marker, showing that your internal sense of self-worth is dependent on petty external material status symbols.

There's nothing wrong with having money- hey, I'd like some myself. However, if you make a public argument that you're superior to someone else because you have a more expensive car, people will see that as an admission of spiritual emptiness.

Furthermore, it reflects badly on your intelligence. Even if you have some internal feelings that run that way, if you were any kind of intelligent you would understand how badly it reflects on you to speak in such manner.

Finally, dude, do you have any idea how SILLY you sound putting down the famously scenic and cultured state of Kentucky from New Jersey, of all places? With no disrespect to the citizenry, this is THE state with the worst reputation of any in the union as a place to live.

In fairness, I must say that I actually live in Indiana. My people are from Kentucky, and the name conjures up my proud bootlegger heritage, but I am a Hoosier- though I'm within an hour of good ol' KY.

Joe, I'm dropping knowledge here- if you were smart you'd be taking notes. Got a pen handy? Here's you a valuable new lesson, G-

This business of bragging about how expensive your car is reeks of the ghetto mentality. When you speak like this, educated and aware people will see it as low class. It's a shame-based personality marker, showing that your internal sense of self-worth is dependent on petty external material status symbols for validation.

There's nothing wrong with having money- hey, I'd like some myself. However, if you make a public argument that you're superior to someone else because you have a more expensive car, people will see that as an admission of spiritual emptiness.

Furthermore, it reflects badly on your intelligence. Even if you have some internal feelings that run that way, if you were any kind of intelligent you would understand how badly it reflects on you to speak in such manner.

Finally, dude, do you have any idea how SILLY you sound putting down the famously scenic and cultured state of Kentucky from New Jersey, of all places? With no disrespect to the citizenry, this is THE state with the worst reputation of any in the union as a place to live.

In fairness, I must say that I actually live in Indiana. My people are from Kentucky, and the name conjures up my proud bootlegger heritage, but I am a Hoosier- though I'm within an hour of good ol' KY.

KD- Sorry, your comments kind of got shorted in the midst of all the foolishness. I had not heard most of this stuff about Tupac. It certainly tends to paint him in a more three dimensional and humane light than his records and some of his fans do.

Thanks for the lesson Al, but you didn't have to post it twice. I read it the first time.

I know how it sounds when someone brags about their material possessions. I wasn't trying to brag though, I was just trying to get under your skin.

But you all are so wrong about Jersey. Did you know Jersey is number 1 in the nation in education?

Here are some facts for you:

People that have at least a bacholor's degree - Jersey ranks 5th in the nation; Kentucky is 47th

Elementary and Secondary Teachers Average Salaries per year: Jersey ranks 1st in the nation; Kentucky is 32nd

Unemployment Rate: Kentucky is 5th highest in the nation; Jersey is 33rd with 50 being the best

Average Annual Pay: Jersey is 4th; Kentucky is 35th (Like I said)

Median Household Income: Jersey is 1st in the nation; Kentucky is 44th (Like I said)

People below poverty: Kentucky is 6th worst in the nation; Jersey is 4th best

Total Mobile Homes: Jersey is 46th; Kentucky is 10th

Doctors per 100,000 population: Jersey is 7th; Kentucky is 32nd

Kentucky is over 90% white; Jersey just 72.5% (proves the racism issue)

Kentucky is also higher in violent crimes (murder, rape, etc.)

Jersey has the highest car insurance rate in the country. We have to pay double what someone in Kentucky pays.

In the 2002 Smartest State Award Contest, Jersey came in 4th; Kentucky 28th

As you can see there is virtually no competition whatsoever. There is no comparing the two. Jersey is top rated in everything and Kentucky is on the bottom end in everything. So basically, "your people" live in a shithole.

Worst reputation? Um, I think that would be Kentucky.

wow, if those facts that Joe posted are true, then jesus christ, kentucky is a shithole. You people have to be the dumbest of all humans on this planet. Plese do not try to speak all intelligent, I can tell when you copy and paste words from a website and put them as your own. All your smart talk and mumbo jumbo is just a way to get around the facts that a black ghetto thug from the gutter made millions of dollars during his short life and was loved by millions, and you can't face that. May I ask, what do yo do for a living, and be honest, because I know for damn sure that you don't have a good job.

You 2 faggots are getting blown up by every other motha fucka in this bitch. You wanna keep beefin and gettin your dumbass shit on, keep it up.

That's how you see it. The way I see it is that you've made some really dumb-ass statements and you're using twisted logic to try to defend them. And how am I gonna get shat on? I'm so scared.

It's already been established by MTV's poll that a lot of people think Tupac is #1, so the number of you in here should come as no surprise. Just b/c Pac won that popularity contest doesn't mean that I have to agree. In fact, given how fanatical y'all are it's no wonder that Pac won. Y'all were probably calling in 20 times each to vote.

Yo Mikey, how old are you? 40 or something? You saying that I am young and shit and I am 21. And your pety (sic), immature comments show your real intelletual (sic) side.

I'm 35. And yes, you're young and it shows. Look at the way you came in here. Is it any wonder you're getting treated like the punk that you are? If you act civil, you'll get treated with respect. Act like a little bitch and you'll be treated as such.

And you think I need to be an eyewitness in order to know something? Lol, if that was the case then nobody would know anything about this world. All the news you hear every fuckin day, do you witness that first hand bro? Nah, but you believe it though dont ya? You never witnessed a man walk on the moon, so I guess that never happened did it? You never saw the Civil War saw I guess that never took place right? These books and historians have to be wrong dont they? Lol, you stupid.

Is that what I said? I think not. What I said was you're poppin' all this BS about Pac dis this, Pac did that. All that shit is nothing but rumors. And even if they were true, you don't know the situation, b/c your young ass was at home wetting the sheets. You don't know if he was strapped, if his crew was right behind him, if the other party thought he was strapped. As we all know, Pac was a wild MF, there's no telling what he was carrying. Which is exactly why I said if he was unarmed he'd get beat down.

Oh, and 3 years ago when I was a freshmen I took Honors English Comp. 101 and 102, and got A's in both of them. If you want I can give you the names and numbers of my professors and you can ask them. Just go to Rutgers.edu, go to Find People, and type in their names. You will get what subjects they teach, their email address, and their number. My 101 professor was Mrs. Radetich and my 102 professor was Ms. Timmerman.

Damn, Rutgers must be an easy school. Look at what you just wrote -- "their address(es), their number(s)" "when I was a freshmen" (s/be freshman)

New Jersey may top Kentucky in terms of the statistics presented above, but if it is represented by the type of personality that would engage in character assassination of another human in the manner in which you have done in this thread, I would choose Kentucky.

Luckily, I know plenty of wonderful people in New Jersey, and can say with certainly that you -- or certainly the pose you are employing here -- are not in any way representative of decent people in the Garden State. I say this with all due respect, of course.

A request from someone bored by the shenanigans: Is there any way to steer this train wreck in the making back to the topic at hand?

Natalie,

I'm trying to do that right now. (And I'm also bored with this) I'm writing a post to try to get this back on the music.

Bless you. Here is a question: I notice that no women made your list of the top 22. Which female MCS do you like? Myself, I am a huge fan of Missy Elliott, and of course I hail the Queen.

OK, here's the last that I have to say about Tupac. You guys are taking this way too seriously. It's funny to me how fanatical you Tupac fans are. I think that explains why he won MTV's poll. I'm sure demographics also played a part. I'll bet that most of MTV's audience doesn't own a KRS album and/or has never seen him perform b/c they're too young. You see the same phenomenon when the video networks do a 'greatest videos of all time' show. Usually the top of the list is dominated by recent material. But that's neither here nor there... Like I said in the post, I didn't have too much of a problem with the list once it was fully revealed.

As I said in the article, this was a tough list to make. I could make good arguments for most of the people in the top 15 to be ranked #1. The mere fact that I have Tupac ranked at #12 shows that I like his music. Yes, he has some great lyrics, but for me there's more to being a great MC. In my book, a huge part of being an MC is performing live. If you've seen a KRS show, then you know that nobody even comes close in a live performance.

So let's just agree to disagree on Tupac's ranking and move on. Besides, you Pac fans should be happy, he did win the vote.

Oops, my bad. Saw them -- and the delicious MC Lyte -- on your list of honorable mentions.

Natalie,

I've been meaning to add Lauryn Hill, Monie Love, Roxanne Shante and Lady of Rage too... so I just did.

Ooh, excellent. Lauryn rules. And what more needs to be said, but "Roxanne, Roxanne."

You are 35 fuckin years old and you have nothin better to do with your time then to post shit in a rap forum? That's sad dawg. When I am 35 I can tell you for a fact that I won't be even addressing niggaz that are 10, 15, 20 years younger than me.

As for Pac, he has been voted number 1 on much more than gay MTV. I dont' even watch MTV. I NEVER called to voted for anyone, EVER in my entire life. I wouldn't waste my time on that gay shit. I don't care if MTV says Pac is #1, because they don't mean nothing to me.

The fact that they didn't (as you didn't either) have Canibus on the list proves that they (and you) don't even know anything about hip hop. Canibus would tear up ANYONE in a freestyle battle. NOBODY can touch Canibus in a battle. That nigga can rhyme. He shit on LL Cool J, practically ending his career as a rapper. Eminem tried to start shit with him and Canibus blew his ass out the water. Canibus is by far the most under-rated mcee to ever live. But people who know about real hip hop know that Canibus is tight as hell. He is easily in the top 5 best mcee's of all-time.

And BET, the Source, Vibe, any many other big labels have voted Pac as number 1. The Source is a New York based magazine and they hate Pac, and they even put him number 1 for most influential rapper of all-time. They put him #3 for best mcee of all-time. Pac was already inducted into the hip hop hall of fame last year.

And those things about Pac are not rumors, they are FACTS. It is a FACT that Pac wasn't strapped that night. It is a FACT that he had no vest on that night. It is a FACT that there were between 6 and 12 cars driving behind him that were his entourage (bodyguard, outlawz, other rappers). So don't tell me that these are rumors and that I am spreading bullshit. These were all facts that the LVPD have stated several times. Pac nor Suge was strapped. The cops found no guns at all in the car, or anywhere along the whole strip where they searched for the assassins gun. Some of his entourage did return fire and at least 3 cars chased after the Caddy.

So don't tell me these are rumors and don't tell me I was wetting my sheets at the time you ignorant prick. I was a fucking freshmen in high school. You acting like I was 7 years old, or even 12 years old. I was fucking 15 nigga.

And I'll say it again. Stop with your stupid ass (sic) bullshit. You want me to do that to your shit? Go look at your last post bro. About 10 errors at least. But I don't have the time, nor would I want to go and fix your mistakes.

Natalie, don't talk about me or Jersey because you are ignorant to both topics. You don't know me from Adam and you wouldn't know the first thing about Jersey. Whatever I do or say on here has no bearing whatsoever on the intelligence that I possess. I type these stupid posts in 5 minutes tops. I don't proofread my shit on here because it is meaningless, incoherent dribble. If you want to battle me on any topic, go for it. Politics, World Events, History, Psychology, Criminal Justice, Philosophy, the Stock Market, Sociology, Baseball, Basketball, Football, Mathematics of any kind (Algebra, Geometry, Trig., Calc., etc), Science of any kind (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc.), anything you want sweetheart. I know for a fact you wouldn't know Football from Hockey, so sports are not even an option.

blah, blah, blah...

I not even gonna bother to pick apart your whole post again & teach you the difference between 'then' and 'than', etc.

But to your point about this being a rap forum -- you don't even know where you are. This is not a rap forum. Maybe you should go take a look at the front page of this site.

Anyway, enough about Tupac.

How do you know what I know or don't about Jersey? My first spouse (who died) hailed from Linden. My current spouse is from Summit. I have spent much time in both places, as well as in Newark, New Brunswick, Morristown, Englewood Cliffs, Hoboken, Jersey City, the Oranges, Princeton, Vernon, Avon by the Sea, etc. I have family -- genetic and in-laws -- all through the state. I am a big fan of the Stone Pony in Asbury Park (and was a regular there in my younger years) and love the Jersey Shore. I subscribe to the Bergen Record. I've even visited Rutgers -- including the campus radio station, which is way cool -- on numerous occasions. Oh, and while I have better things to do than debate with you at length on any topic (what would be the point? you seem only interested in insulting people, not sticking to the subject at hand), I am a huge sports fan -- baseball, college hoops, football (go Ravens!), golf, and hockey (Islanders all the way, baby) are my faves. In short, sir, it is you who knows not of what you speak.

As for your intelligence, you may have an intellect the size of Einstein's. My point is that I have not seen any evidence of it in your postings.

I have no interest in engaging in any pissing matches with you. This topic is supposed to be about music. Can we limit conversation to that? Please? And I beg of you, don't be hatin'. It doesn't become any of us. Peace.

I have tried to ignore the majority of the incoherency and immaturity plaguing this thread. 2pac was a great lyricist although a highly contradictory person, but none of us are perfect. I also agreed that Michael left off key female lyricists who deserve higher than honorable mention but thats another debate. What pulled me back into this was the implication, yet again, that Missy Elliot should be on a lyricist list. She is a good song writer, excellent artist and producer she is not a lyricist. I dont think I can ever forgive:
Just 'cause I got a lot of fame su-pa
Prince couldn't get me change my name pa-pa

Wha?

Lyricism is so much more than rhyming words...

Dew,

You've already mentioned Lauryn, so which other females do you think deserve to be in the top 22?

As for Missy, I literally laughed out loud when MTV announced her name. I was shocked that she was even considered b/c I think of her more as a singer. But then I watched MTV's package on her, and I was like "damn! Missy is kinda nice". I'd forgotten all the tracks she's done, and she has spit some nice rhymes. Stylistically, with her use of onomatopoeia and creativity, she can be compared to Busta. But you won't get an argument out of me about her lyrical content. :-) So after I heard MTV's case for Missy, I had to put her on the honorable mention.

Well, Lauryn is the only female I think that belongs on the actual list. Lyte, Brat and Queen are the only 3 that belong on the honorable mention's list. I was thinking Brat and Queen should have been higher but their later work knocked them down to just honorable mention.

Lyte can still spit, unfortunately she no longer has the reinforcements to bring her back to the lime light.

Brat has always had flow (see Funkdafied) she is responsible for the majority of lyrics that come from So so def and surprisingly a host of others. As of late she has fallen in the hole of trying to be commercial and now she's choosing glamour over substance, but I can not knock her for trying to eat.

Queen Latifah is that fire. When she chooses to do so she can come at you with the one two (see Set it off soundtrack) but she has always preferred her singing over her rhymes and as of late she is focused on the bigger bucks wrapped in acting.

Now there is one MC her name is Shawnna, she was in a group called The Infamous Syndicate and now she is with the DTP. Once she has a few albums under her belt you wont be able to deny her a spot on the top lists. She just doesnt have enough material out right now to claim a position.

If this is a list about lyrics, Roxanne, Roxanne Shante nor Lady of Rage should be on it. Lady of rage? I rock rough and stuff with my afro puffs?

For real?

I definitely forgot to put Brat on the H.M. list.

As for Rage. Don't you think you're being kinda tough? Are you saying that you don't like the chorus of 'Afro Puffs' or the whole song? She was flowing rather nicely on that track. And the phrase 'I rock rough & stuff with my afro puffs' came from one of her verses on Snoop's 'G Funk Intro', on which she ripped. The other songs that I will always remember Rage for are Dre's 'Stranded on Death Row' and 'Lyrical Gangbang'. I'll admit that I never heard her solo album... that slipped by me somehow. And she sure needs to do more material, but how can you clown her over one chorus?

You don't like Bahamadia? She's one of the nicest IMO.

i see no one could address my statement that Canibus is the illest freestylin nigga to ever rock a mic. Yall didn't say anything because you know it's true. He would tear up any mcee in the game.

Anyway, about KRS-One being so great. He couldn't even battle Nelly. Have you heard that wack ass shit he came at Nelly wit? Any half-ass rapper could have wrote that shit. KRS was so hard up for material that he had to go as low as to making remarks about Nelly's acne. That is when you know you are beat, when you have to sink to gay shit like that. "Yo Nelly, you aint worldwide and you aint universal/your whole dam style sounds like an Nsync commercial"....LOL, what the fuck is that? That is the wackest line I ever heard. Worldwide and universal are synonymous, so all he did was repeat himself. And then he refers to Nelly's style as "an Nsync commercial?" What the fuck is an Nsync commercial? Granted I don't sit in front of the tube 24/7, but I never seen a fucking Nsync commercial. So that just makes no sense whatsoever. And the rest of that freestyle is all wack. So KRS is nowhere near being the best mcee ever. That is just stupid to even say something like that. Canibus would rip his ass apart in a battle, and so would plenty of other niggaz too.

And Dew, I know Pac was a walking contradictory. But put yourself in his shoes for one day man. Any other nigga would have blown their fuckin head off. The life he led, the obstacles and tribulations that he had to go through, go on man. He has the right to act any way he wants. That nigga is "the rose that grew from concrete." The nigga came from less than nothing and became the biggest fuckin star in the rap game.

That is all I ask anyone to do when they talk bad on Pac. Put yourself in his shoes. What would you do? How would you act? 99% of people could never even imagine what hell he went through. All people know is what they hear from the media or read in the papers. Very few people know the REAL Tupac Shakur.

Michael,
You know what I love Bahamadia, I have Kollage and BBQueen, she just slipped my mind while I was replying. I think she is one of the most under-rated and she actually has a message.


As far as Rage goes, I will give her another chance. I had forgotten about Chronic I do vaguely remember some nice bars from that classic. So I will go back and definitely see what she had to offer.

And Joe,
'but none of us are perfect' 6 words summed up what you attempted to say in 2 paragraphs. No rebut necessary we are saying the same thing.

Oh, Jebus!

Sorry about you'se guys lack of TASTE
and/or comprehension of RAP.

So, Tupac was kilt by the US Fed? It
wasn't his crocodile mouth -vs- Tweety
Bird ass that got him shot to death by
REAL thugs for talking shit? How the
hell did CNN News miss that?

Personally, I liked most of his shit,
he dogged everybody pretty equally, &
he spoke on a LOT more levels than
most people gave him credit for. But,
he talked a lot of SHIT, and STARTED a
lot of SHIT, then wondered why it was
that people wanted to punch HOLES in
his ass.

It came as no suprise to me that he
made it into the coroner's office so
"Jung", and the more probable culprits
were his PEERS, whom he had directly
made threats to, (and enemies of) with
that aforementioned Crocodile Mouth.

It never ceases to amaze me that young
idiots talk MAJOR shit about how "BAD"
they are, and how loud their GUN will
speak, only to find out that they
DON'T have the only gun on the planet,
and all the REAL badboyz are DEAD or
in PRISON.

BANG.

Everlast: "Talked some shit and wound
up DEAD." Can ya DIG it?

Here's MY take on this:

NOT all "music" conforms to YOUR (or
any SINGLE person's) ideas of "what music
is" or "is not." Music is defined in the
ear of the listener, as BEAUTY is, in the
eye of the beholder. Generally, what your
ear is acclimated to is what IS music,
and any other sounds have to be within those
parameters to even be "acceptable".

Towit: If MY ear likes it, it's MUSIC, but
if not, it's NOISE. That 700,000 humans say
this song IS and that one ISN'T, will NOT
change my mind, because 100,000 Lemmings
CAN be wrong.

Okay, first, Vanilla Ice wouldn't make a
pimple on a rapper's ass.

TuPac was NOT Black Jebus. He's DEAD like
Jebus, but that's where the similarity ends.
Sorry about BOTH "saviors".

Eminem is Dr. Dre's token Whitebread. If Dre
HADN'T produced and carried his ass, failure
would've occurred LONG ago. Top POP, crap rap.

Dr. Dre IS, in fact, a HISTORICAL rapper, and
few of the current wannabe's and clowns will
ever reach the heights he's already achieved.

The distinction between "Rapper" and "MC" is
an un-necessary one, the actual distinction
is between RAP and Hip-Hop. Check the ballistics.

"Canibus"... wannabe hardass, big-bad, studio
gang-star. Mean-muggin' don't make a rapper.
If all that's required is talking the talk,
and having the look, most of the wannabe's
would already have it made!

NWA didn't even get MENTIONED, nor did ANY
of the TRUE old-school rappers. The early 90's
came in with a GANG of rappers like DJ Quik,
Dre & Snoop, E40, Too $hort, Ice Cube, Ice T,
Public Enemy, and a list of the REAL too long
to go into here. My FIRST instinct was to run
the list of WOMEN, starting w/ Our Lady of Rage!
By herself, she'd boot most of the names on
EITHER list. Between her and Latifah, and the
likes of Salt & Pepa, well, if that didn't get
the point across, you're THICK between the ears.

Bottom line? These "lists" were compiled without
much serious thought, MTV's created from sheer
IGNORANCE, (VOTE whether you know what you're
saying or NOT) Michael's from personal PREFERENCE,
with at least an AIR of comprehension in the
choosing.

BTW- Lady Liberty is said to have turned her BACK
to Jersey, because she couldn't take the SMELL of
the "Armpit of the U.S."

"100,000 Lemmings CAN be wrong."

Heard that. As the kids used to say, word.

riiiight, so by your own accord, D, you just wasted valuable time saying absolutely nothing...interesting

The distinction between "Rapper" and "MC" is an un-necessary one, the actual distinction is between RAP and Hip-Hop. Check the ballistics.

I have a feeling we're making the same point, but it's just a matter of semantics.

NWA didn't even get MENTIONED, nor did ANY of the TRUE old-school rappers. The early 90's came in with a GANG of rappers like DJ Quik, Dre & Snoop, E40, Too $hort, Ice Cube, Ice T, Public Enemy, and a list of the REAL too long to go into here.

Well you certainly didn't look at my list(s). Snoop and Chuck D are in my top 22. No, I didn't mention NWA as a group b/c I listed some of the members individually. Ice Cube, Ice-T and Dre are on my honorable mention list. MC Ren should probably be on there as well. I like Quik and $hort Dog, but just not enough to put them on the list. Quik would definitely be on my list of favorite producers though.

Bottom line? These "lists" were compiled without much serious thought, MTV's created from sheer IGNORANCE, (VOTE whether you know what you're saying or NOT) Michael's from personal PREFERENCE, with at least an AIR of comprehension in the choosing.

Yes, my list is from personal preference. I don't pretend to speak for anyone else. All this post was meant to do was show who I think are the best MCs.

As for Eminem, there's no doubt he's gotten a boost from being down with Dre and the fact that he's white. But he can rhyme with the best of them. Check him out on Jay-Z's Renegade or any of the freestlyes he's done (available on Kazaa).

D,

That was so articulate and profound...NOT! You don't know what the hell you are talking about. You have no clue about rap or hip hop. The very fact that you think Salt N Pepa, Too Short, E-40, and half ass rappers like that should be on the list of top rappers, proves you know absolutely nothing.

"Pac started a lot of shit"...LOL, really? What shit did he ever start boy? He never said shit until he was setup and shot at Times Square in '94. He didn't have beef with no motha fuckin body until that day. Biggie's fat ass and half the East Coast rappers started the shit by setting Pac up and then acting like he didn't exist when he went to jail. Half the rappers on the East Coast were there when Pac was shot and no one knew a dam thing. That's like the police coming to the hood and asking about a murder and niggaz say they didn't see nothing. You know they're lying. Biggie told Pac a week before he was shot not to fuck around with the niggaz that later shot him. And Pac was like "what do you mean?", and Biggie was like, "I'll tell you later." And they never talked, and the next time Pac saw Biggie was the night he was shot.

Then Pac goes to jail for Biggie because that fat bitch left 4 guns in Pac's room. Serial numbers scratched out and shit. And Pac took that case, he didn't snitch.

So Pac rushed Biggie's ass. What's the fuckin problem? When PM Dawn got on stage and dissed KRS, what did KRS do? He bum rushed the nigga, am I right? So why are people saying Pac is wrong for doing what he did?

Pac NEVER started any shit with no motha fuckin body. He NEVER said shit about someone until they provoked him. So get your facts straight b. Recognize and realize, because you don't have a fuckin clue what you are saying.

Saying Pac got killed for talking shit and running his mouth? So I guess Biggie, Stretch, Jam Master Jay, Kadafi, and all the other niggaz that were gunned down were gunned down because they all talked shit, right?

You so stupid. Niggaz get shot everyday b. They get shot for no motha fuckin reason. It's just jealousy and hatred for the most part. Niggaz killed Pac because they knew Pac was taking over the whole fuckin rap game and the only way to stop that was to take him out.

When I say the Feds killed Pac, I don't mean they necessarily did it directly, but they were indirectly involved at the least. I believe Orlando Anderson and the Crips killed Pac, and I always have. But the Feds could have easily cut a deal with some gang niggaz. Telling them to knock off Pac. The did it with JFK, and I am sure they had a part in it with RFK, Malcolm, and MLK.

And the Feds sure as hell made no attempt whatsoever to find Pac's killer. That whole investigation was a joke. There were so many holes and leaks in that investigation it was pathetic.

But those pussies who shot Pac are NOT bad asses. They are cowards, and so are the rest of the niggaz that go around shootin people. You wanna shoot someone, go up to their face and do it. Don't be a bitch and do a drive-by. Don't wear army fatigues and ski masks. You wanna be a gangsta, then play by the rules of the game. The crips are nothing but lil niggaz with no balls. Lil dumb ass niggaz that come from shit and never were shit and have no brains of any kind.

I agree with your "music theory" about why people like what they like, and especially about how it don't matter if a million niggaz like something, it don't make it dope.

I also agree that Eminem would be nothing if it wasn't for Dre. I always believed that and it's the dam truth.

I believe Vanilla Ice is not even worth mentioning when referring to rap or hip hop.

But when you go and quote Everlast, that is just wack. That scrap is no better than Ice. I wouldn't listen to a word that came out of that idiots mouth.

And your words on Canibus are just ignorance. You obviously don't know the cat's music if you say that shit. That nigga can take out ANYONE in a battle. He proved it already.

Dew;

Depends on whether you meant

A. "...wasted valuable time saying absolutely nothing"

or

B. "wasted valuable time saying absolutely nothing interesting"

If A, Yup. I'm good at that.

If B, You can't please everybody, please yourself. Only read
the GOOD stuff.

---

Michael;

To be fair,
I read the list, but only noticed your mentioning RunDMC, Sugar
Hill, The Furious 5, Snoop, and Rakim. Yeah, yeah, Chuck D.
(only JUST looked at your honorable mention) But, there's dozens
more with equal to way better skills. Still, that's just opinion.

And everybodys got one of those.

Now, MC Ren from the BEST perspective was true-blue RACIST, his
forte being his "Kill the crackers" lyrics. Never had much love
for the man, he was just MEAN. Needed Valium.

I don't think Eminem got a boost, Dre is Traveling!
He may have some rhyme in him, and he has the breath to carry
it off, but he's just a Dre cashcow. Like his stuff well enough,
but like I said, POP, not Rap.

Oh yeah, you need to check your kazaa, some really crappy new
additions to their P2P program, adware, spyware, and some much
deeper crap that gives them USE of your open hard-drive space,
RAM memory, and "excess" bandwidth. I use WinMX. Open P2P w/o
all the crapware. Kazaa lies like the U.S. Government.

---

Now, I'm not baiting, I'm just DEBATING. But...

Joe!

I may be WAY off, but I'd bet you're a fairly YOUNG man. 20ish?
Not that that's BAD, or you do or don't know what you're TALKING
about if you're not 55 with scars from 42 of 'em, but I will say
again that MUSIC is constituted by the listener.

Sadly, I have to give you your props on the "You obviously don't
know the cat's music", that's a fact. Don't see him ANYWHERE.
Looked. Searched. Researched. NO play. I was doggin' him on looks
alone. But if you realize that's a BAD remark, (I don't SEE him)
you also realize the dude just doesn't have either the REACH or
the lyrical STRENGTH to be as well-played as, say, Everlast.

Not meaning to imply that Everlast was any kind of rap, only used
the line because it fit exactly what I wanted to say. The Pac,
regardless what actually happened, kept making noise until he
caught the ax. My grandmother used to say; "The more you stir
shit, the more it stinks". I DID say he started shit, but NO
fight is between one man, there HAS to be at least TWO. Whether
he started the probs or just carried them on without end, he
WAS half the fight. Everybody heard him pretty clearly.

He just didn't know when to shut the hell UP.

Tupac actually had the heart of a lion, said what he thought,
talked the talk AND walked the walk. I always thought his words
got the notice they did because he FELT what he was saying, he
LIVED it, and MEANT it. Best for that is Dear Momma, War Stories,
or Hearts Of Men.

But, our young would-be Machiavelli only used those portions of
his lessons as contributed to HIS perceptions. Machiavelli taught
young princes to become KINGS. His machinations were asserted
by those he taught, NOT at his own hand. Tupac was an ORATOR,
exceptional in many ways. But apparantly, DIPLOMACY was not an
art he was versed in.

Mostly, the gang-shit floats beyond me, I can't grasp the idea
of 200 members of Red bashing 200 members of Blue, it doesn't
make sense to me. It would make MORE sense to me to hook 'em up,
and make Purple, stronger than anything standing against either
or both.

While it is POSSIBLE (no impossibilities, only improbabilities)
that the Fed helped bang Tupac, (personal feelings removed) it's
so unlikely as to be funny. Of what concern is Dr. Dre to the
U.S. FedGov? Some, since he's a famous BLACK male, whose voice
alone is recognized by a HUGE amount of the youth of the U.S.
He COULD get a listen just sticking his head out his front door.
But do they (the fed) worry what he might say? Or how? They can't
just run in and put his ass inside a cage?

They (STATE) had Tupac at their disposal LITERALLY when he went
to prison. Had they wanted, he'd of been dead THERE and then. had
they wanted him, he'd be there STILL. Sorry little brother, it
just don't float.

That he WAS about the right thing only meant he was STRONG, most
of those who could lay a bit off on someone else would snitch on
their own MOTHER not to go to prison. Billy Bad-Ass while they
sell dope or pop guns at people, but sing their ASSES off the
first time it looks like they'll see G-pop. Gutless bitches.
So, he was a stand-up dude. But that STILL don't make him Jebus.
OR Malcolm, OR MLK. It MIGHT have, but we'll never know.

LAST, what is it about the Rage you don't like? She's as hardcore
street-level Rap as the Pac in her own right! Ditto Salt & Pepa,
although they eventually went mid-stream POP, and DITTO Queen
Latifah! Then again, we're back to "the eye of the beholder", and
opinions. Depends on what YOUR definition of RAP is.

Oh yeah, you need to check your kazaa, some really crappy new additions to their P2P program, adware, spyware, and some much deeper crap that gives them USE of your open hard-drive space, RAM memory, and "excess" bandwidth. I use WinMX. Open P2P w/o all the crapware. Kazaa lies like the U.S. Government.

I've used KazaaLite for years for those very reasons. And I've recently switched to the K++ version. Of course I only use them for legal purposes :-)

D,

Are you insinuating that Everlast is a better rapper than Canibus? Please tell me you aren't, because if you think that then you need a psychological evaluation.

You can like Everlast more than Canibus (even though that still would be odd), but you can't say he is even near Canibus in skill level. That is like comparing Michael Jordan with Shawn Bradley. I mean, it isn't even comparable in any sense, and to even mention the two in the same sentence is absurd.

And he are constantly contradicting yourself when talking about 2pac. You give him props and say he was a great orator and he talked the talk and walked the walk, but then you say how he ran his mouth and that is why he was killed. If Pac was killed because of speaking his mind and not biting his tongue for nobody, then that is sick.

And the Feds could not have killed him in jail up in Riker's. He was in protective custody, and they had to let him out when Suge posted a $1.4 million dollar bond for his release. You think the Feds are going to turn down that kinda money just to hold someone that never even committed the crime he was accused of? So they took the money and let Pac go, thinking that he would be back in prison pending his appeal.

And Dr. Dre does not pose any threat whatsoever to the Feds. He is the softest motha fucka in the game. The nigga is closing in on 40, and he doesn't go around talking shit. Yeah, he did back in the day, but that is ancient history. NO ONE in the rap game today is a threat to the Feds, but Pac was. Pac was raising hell all over the fuckin country. His first 2 albums were strictly based on bad-mouthing the government and white america. And he got to the Feds and the government so bad, that the Vice President of the U.S., Dan Qualye, personally mentioned 2pac in his fuckin re-election speech. He was sayin that "there is no place in our society" for Pac's music. So here is the Vice President of