Hey Al, I saw that tour also, and just speaking for my pale self only, I did feel a bit of fear. It was of course buffered by liberal amounts of malt liquour, and a fascination with the nubian feminitas. I thought Digital Underground (with Tupac!) stole the show that night. Wasn't there an all female group on that bill also?

PE's shining moment was "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us back". Hands down (then waive them up in the air like you just don't care) this is one of the greatest albums of all time, any genre

I always thought Heavy D was an overblown windbag, though. Irrelevant in his time, and as history has revealed, in the present day also.

Oh, and "Paul's Boutique" is the most crimially underrated hip hop album in history! And on this there can be no debate!

No female acts in Indy. It was purely a testosterone deal.

Humpty Hump was rock rulin', but we didn't have any idea yet that far back who Tupac was.

Heavy D just really never did have any decent songs. On top of which, he had this HUGE FRICKIN' NEON SIGN announcing his entrance reading "The Overweight Lover." This was just really amazingly tacky.

Oh, and Kid 'n Play were on the bill as well, working probably their first album.

I felt no fear in these surroundings (the since demolished Market Square Arena). I walk through all parts of town as the mood strikes with little thought. Perhaps I just don't have enough sense to know when I should be scared.

On the other hand, in fairness my co-celebrants at the PE gig gave me absolutely no noticeable reason to be scared. I was slightly conscious of my surroundings if only on the basis of being in a big crowd, but I didn't notice so much as a sideways glance all night.

Oh yeah, Kid n Play were the other act. I guess I just remember them as girls. House Party 1 is classic cinema, brother.

I thought "911 is a Joke" was their best song.

As always these matters come down to subjective judgments of value. I have no argument about the Beasties, they are classic, underrated, and certanly top 5 hip-hop all time. But haven't had more great albums than PE, which was unerring into the early '90s. I also agree about the racism and Chuck D being something of a dilettante, but your hero Elvis C is an even bigger dilettante, so that in and of itself isn't a disqualifier.

I agree it ultimately comes down to songs, but I will put a PE greatest hits up against just about anyone's greatest hits. They created a catchy, dangerous, dense, powerful sound out of disparate parts and made it sound of a piece. The political crap just doesn't matter thant much and is clearly hyperbole anyway - shock value is part of the game

did al barger actually say "Any retard can be hostile and belligerant"?

i will now move aside so as to avoid the incoming lightening bolts.

The Beastie Boys as the greatest rap group ever. Now THAT is hilarious. I grew up in NY and used to listen to Hip Hop on 8 tracks before cassettes were even popular. My point being that I was a fan of rap since it first began as an almost novelty. I think you are quite alone in thinking the Beastie Boys are the greatest rap group musically, lyrically or even conceptually. I enjoyed their first album when Def Jam brought them out but I can gurantee you the fact that people that love rap dont think of them is neither racist nor anti - semitic. I think its a matter of taste. They are a good group but thats about it. Nothing revolutionary in terms of what they say, how they say it or even their sound. Any by they way, Malcom X never carried an Uzi. That silly picture that everyone sees with him looking out of the window is a photoshop creation...

...as are the lunar landing shots. Everyone knows they are created in a sound stage in Hollywood.

isn't there some movie or series of movies about the whole world being fascade?

Al's right. Any [jerk] can be hostile and belligerent.

In case the trackback doesn't work, here's my comment

As much as I think arguing about "the music I like is better than the music you like" is a pointless exercise, it sure is fun.
If anything, the Beastie Boys are the most overrated rap act. So they actually play instruments. Great. After Pauls' Boutique, they just kept making the same album.
I'd have to go with NWA, and the acts it spawned, as the greatest.

Very interesting Michael, why don't you join us?

Aaron says: "After Pauls' Boutique, they just kept making the same album".

This statement proves that you not only do not know your ass from elbow, you also are not familiar with the Beastie Boys recorded output.

While "Check your Head" and "Ill Communication" are similar in theme and sound, they bear no resemlance to "Paul's Boutique", and certainly "Hello Nasty" does not sound like any of their other records.

Check your facts, sucka, so I don't have to keep taking fools school!

Wow, you sure took me to school.

To put Al's yammering about "cheap racial demagoguery" in perspective, Chuck D has been considerably to the fore among black MCs in giving the Beastie Boys their props (in fact, he cited them as an influence when he presented them the Video Vanguard award).

That Public Enemy's politics is mostly schtick is plain; to complain about this is to miss the fact that this is precisely the source of their appeal. They are to hip hop what Parliament Funkadelic were to funk, Kiss or Alice Cooper were to rawk, or what Gwar were to metal. They had more intelligence behind the schtick than any of the latter three bands IMO, but it's a similar phenomenon: Spectacle with a capital "S."

Having said that, I doubt their musical output will age well. Their sound certainly captured and shaped a moment in hip hop but failed, ultimately, to move beyond it. In that sense they're not in the same league as hip hop acts that adapted to What Came After and kept producing quality and relevant music, like the Beasties, KRS-One, Gangstarr, Dr. Dre or (perhaps more controversially) the much-maligned LL Cool J.

I don't think hip hop yet has an Elvis Costello. That's to be expected; as a format it's only a couple of decades old, just as rock and roll was when "My Aim is True" first came out. And I have a feeling that a consistently wacky innovator comparable to Costello is less likely to come out of the States than the British Isles -- here's the horse I'm currently backing.

Slack- I don't know that Chuck D has ever been hostile toward the Beasties specifically, but he certainly has some history of Jew-baiting. First of course was their Minister of Information explaining to the press that Jews were responsible for the "majority of wickedness" that goes on in the world.

Besides not firing the guy (or not keeping him fired), Chuck followed up with the classic "Welcome to the Terrordome" where he "told the rab 'get off the rag'" and explained how "they" had got him "just like Jesus."

One on hand, that IS kind of shitty. On the other, it's one of their best joints, so I'll forgive a lot of nonsense. I'll just say that I take it with a grain of salt.

Also Doc, give us more about this Roots Manuva guy you like. How about a post or two on him? What would be the half dozen best songs to hunt down from him to see what he does?

"Besides not firing the guy (or not keeping him fired), "

Well, Griff was fired almost immediately for his anti-Semitic comments, and stayed that way for a very long time... but it's debatable how sincere a move this was. After all, PE's merch company continued to distribute his records, and Chuck D produced one of his later "Last Asiatic Disciples" albums. So I won't make any excuses for the D-ster there.

Yes, I should do a proper post about Roots -- I have a big backlog of Blogcritics stuff to get to.

Doc Slack,

Good to see another Roots Manuva fan. I have him on my top MCs list. I just wonder if he'll ever get any love in the States.

Weren't PE and the Beasties actually managed by the same person/people at one point?

Whatever you think of PE's politics or persona, I can't understand anyone thinking It Takes a Nation or Fear of a Black Planet aren't musically dynamite. Nobody - before or since - can do what they did with sound.

I guess there's just no accounting for taste.

I'm disappointed that Miss Natalie said this about me, based on this post:

But why are we taking this man's thoughts seriously on the subject of anything? This is a guy who slams humans who identify as "black" by labelling them "monkeys."

How could you honestly get that from this post? The Africans who came up with the tale made it a monkey.

Then to use that as an excuse to generally discredit everything I might ever say.

Gee, I'm glad we're all friends here.

Friends can be honest. That is honestly how I felt when I saw this. Notice I did not say you were racist or anything of the kind.

Mr. Barger asked via email whether I would like it if someone said something so sweeping against me (as if that doesn't happen every day). My reply to him:

About as much as the last time someone directed a "monkey" comment at me.

I apologize for saying something so sweeping, but the words really wounded. You certainly have the right to say whatever you want, but with that comes having to deal with what others say in response.

So, Natalie, there is some restraining order on any use of the word "monkey" within how many feet of a black man? I commonly refer to my nephew as "The Monkey Boy." Is that an offense too?

To get that offense, you had to purposely ignore the usage. Chuck D was not being compared to A monkey, but to a specific character, the Signifying Monkey. This particular character very much reflects the type of specific behaviors of PE that I wanted to criticize. That the story is African makes it even more appropriate.

So you're saying that because the character is a monkey, therefore no black man should ever be hit with the comparison because that would be racist?

Racism, see, involves pre-judging people based on their genetics instead of on their individual behavior. Chuck D was being compared to this monkey because like this monkey, his career consists of a great deal of signifying.

And who did my words "really wound?" You, white girl? They had nothing to do with you. Chuck D? If he read them, he wouldn't be hurt. He'd be hoping for a stronger reaction. He'd like nothing better than to have the KKK denouncing him on the steps of the courthouse. Race baiting is integral to his game.

Yet on the other hand, you're perfectly happy to absolutely call Elvis Presley a racist for NO REASON AT ALL.

Al,

First let me say that I give you much credit for even knowing about the Signifying Monkey. There are many Blacks that don't - especially those my age (35) and younger. I wondered about your choice of symbols though. You skated on very thin ice by using the S.M. Even though you linked to an explanation of what the S.M., there could still be questions about your true intentions. I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt. No, there's no restraining order on using the word 'monkey' around Blacks. But you should be aware of the kind of response that word will get you, whether or not you meant it in a derogatory way. Just look at what happened to that sportscaster (I think it was Jimmy the Greek).

In my opinion you are way too lax in choosing your words. I was actually wondering if you were Black b/c you knew about he S.M., but more so b/c I couldn't even imagine a non-Black person saying "Negroe please" to me in person. Perhaps you say things like that to your Black friends, but it doesn't come across well in writing.

Thank you for your kind words, Michael. A sister once told me that I'm really a black man who happened to have white skin. I don't have words for how pleased I was with that.

I do generally choose my words fairly carefully. I knew, obviously, that it was likely someone would bitch about the word "monkey" no matter what the context. I'm also not surprised that it was a good white liberal.

Nonetheless, such a complaint is without merit, and the SM was just the guy to make the significant point. Therefore, if someone wants to be offended, then they will just have to be mad.

I do tend to be provocative. I try not to say things just to piss people off. Sometimes you have to say things someone's not wanting to hear, though. I'm just the one for that.

Stuff like the lynching of Jimmy the Greek is a significant part of just exactly why I am inclined to push such points. White guys can absolutely be screwed for one wrong passing comment made with no hateful intent at all. That's not any kind of right. It's unacceptable.

Nor do we do black folks a favor by refusing to hold them to equal standards of civil discourse. Good liberals seem to me to be treating you like children with all kinds of double standards and double talk. It's as if a black man couldn't be expected to be held accountable and take criticism like anyone else.

"Negro please" seems to me to be a very mild bit of playground teasing. I fail to see how the word "Negro" could reasonably be seen as offensive. I say FAR worse than that to my white friends, just by way of being FRIENDLY.

On the other hand, I understand that it would be unwise to go quoting my beloved Richard Pryor albums to black folk of my acquaintance. It just ain't going to sound the same coming out of me, no matter what.

In short, I find it unacceptable that the purposely hateful race baiting of PE would be considered reasonable public discourse, yet that my use of the word "monkey" is even vaguely controversial. The real, purposeful and indefenseable offense of PE's denunciation of Elvis is FAR worse than any minor slight you might decide to take from my use of the word "monkey."

I don't think the ice is that thin.

Al:

I suppose calling me "white girl" is just as accurate as calling me "black girl." Both, however, are wrong. And, being far over the age of 21, I am not a girl and have no wish to go back there. I see the term as a diminishment. My opinion. You'll do whatever you want, regardless of how anyone feels about it.

Also, you can say whatever you want, but you are presumptuous to tell someone what they can and can not find offensive.

You wrote:"Negro please" seems to me to be a very mild bit of playground teasing. I fail to see how the word "Negro" could reasonably be seen as offensive.

Seems to YOU. Perhaps the term does not offend you, but the mileage of others may, and in this case, does vary, whether you consider it reasonable or not.

Frankly, I believe you do say things with the sole reason to be provocative and offensive. I, for one, have never heard of the "signifying monkey," so you may have your ass covered there. But I go back to my initial thought -- the ideas you espouse and your apparent willingness to offend and then castigate those you offend (apparently, we don't have the right to our feelings, reactions, and opinions) does indeed make me wish to refrain from reading or considering anything you say or write.

Miss Natalie, you have a right to feel however you want, but you seem to think that your emotional whims should have veto power over everything else. If you decide to have hurt feelings over something I say- no matter how innocuous, then I am presumed to be an asshole.

In fact, the parameters of public discourse in a democracy are not set by the leastest tenderest sensibilities of whoever might arbitrarily decide to feel offended.

I try to be understanding of other people. I in fact bend over backwards to make nice with people whom I have disagreements with. I try to say what needs to be said with a minimum of hurt feelings.

I've got love in my soul, but I'm not doing you or anyone else favors by keeping my mouth shut when things need to be said. You can consider the things I say, and think rationally about whether I have a good point or not. Or you can decide that your itty bitty feelings have been hurt, which therefore proves that I'm a bad guy. I try to make nice where I can.

But if you're going to set your sensitivities so high that you take offense at being referred to as a "white girl" then I can't do anything for you. That is YOUR emotional baggage, and I will not carry it for you.

Al Barger writes that the Beastie Boys are the best rap act in history. I had written a very long response to this commentary but then, as I reread it, I began to realize that he was just plain ignorant and, being that he chose to refer to Chuck D. as a monkey, probably an idiot white supremacist. I make it a point never to argue with people who practice bottom dwelling thinking, so I've deleted my comments.

I do find it interesting, however, that in putting down Public Enemy he referenced Elvis, who like the Beastie Boys made a name for himself by repackaging Black music for an audience too narrow minded to accept it in its original packaging.

Al Barger writes that the Beastie Boys are the best rap act in history. I had written a very long response to this commentary but then, as I reread it, I began to realize that he was just plain ignorant and, being that he chose to refer to Chuck D. as a monkey, probably an idiot white supremacist. I make it a point never to argue with people who practice bottom dwelling thinking, so I've deleted my comments.

I do find it interesting, however, that in putting down Public Enemy he referenced Elvis, who like the Beastie Boys made a name for himself by repackaging Black music for an audience too narrow minded to accept it in its original packaging.

The fact that Al is dead wrong in his basic thesis - all artistic aggression is basically fake, and PE's insurrectionary rhetoric is no more so than, say, Duchamp's or Johnny Rotten's - doesn't mean that it's not fucking asinine to complain about the use of "signifying monkey" to describe Chuck D. The SM is a basic trope in the African and thus American oral tradition, going back at least to Yoruba myths (in which, contrary to Al's point, he's a terrifying because unpredictable figure).

But that aside, Chuck D isn't the Signifying Monkey in PE, Flav is. There's a duality in many (I won't say most) hip-hop acts of a deep-voiced stentorian serious rapper twinned with a more or less squeaky clowinsh one. Chuck and Flav, Ice-T and Donald Duck, Ice Cube and Easy E, Dre and Eminem. Which goes back to the same African roots - the SM works alongside a father figure. It's a trope in lots of mythsystems - you often get a trickster and a father figure. Odin and Loki.

Oh, and the Beasties have some great music, but their awful one-note squeaky flow always lets them down.

Excellent extrapolation on the Signifying Monkey theme. Thanks.

Just a quick note on Elvis P. He did not simply repackage black music for white consumption. This statement is made by people who know very little about Presley, his background, influences or his early recordings. It's also a bit of solipsism on the part of (or on behalf of) black culture.

Rock-n-roll, as practiced by people like Elvis, Buddy Holly, and even Chuck Berry is a FUSION of pre-existing musical forms--namely R&B AND country. All one need do is have a listen to the Sun Sessions (Elvis's earliest and most influential recordings) and it should be obvious that more than half of the songs on that record are COUNTRY standards (e.g., Blue Moon of Kentucky and I Don't Care if the Sun Don't Shine). Growing up where and when Elvis did, country and blue grass were in his blood.

It's curious how so many people want to blot out from the genealogical record the influence of country music on R-n-R.

It's innacurrate and in some cases racist ignorance.

Pretty much exactly what I've said about The One Elvis all along, and if you are The Alex C, I bow before your contributions to pop-rock history.

Al,

Two things stuck out on this that show me you were too emotionally involved in this post to really be effective.

The word "monkey" has significant racial overtones and to use it in such a specific way is just ASKING for trouble.

Also, I try and avoid the word "retard" as it offends lots of people.

Now, you know I am NOT PC, but I think we have all learned that in a public forum with many different people contributing from various walks of life, that to use obvious words of offense is merely inviting trouble. So if you choose to use them, beware of the criticism.

As for the Beastie Boys being the greatest rap band, well they are in the top ten and deserve without a doubt to be in the RnR Hall of Fame, they got nothing on the early pioneers of the genre.

But I do love their white boy Jewish rap.

Eric,

Regrettably I am not THE Alex Chilton because I'd bow with you. I just happened to have been listening to some old Replacements earlier in the evening and had to blast "Alex Chilton" not once but twice. And it's fun to throw out a line and see who picks it up.

Truly Sean S.

Here's an idea for a revised headline: "Chuck D., Signifying Monkey, Niggardly in His Praise of King"

Oh, now you're just trying to get me lynched.

How could you publish this complete and utter horseshit. Clearly this writer has NO IDEA what he's talking about. He has no grasp of hip hop culture and its history whatsoever, and completely overlooks Public Enemy's 2nd album, "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back," considered by many to be the crowning achievement of rap music to date.

Wow, Al, you've crossed over from just offending people based on the things you say and the words you choose to say them into having no taste in music!

On that, at least, welcome to the club.

Why is Elvis was a racist for bringing black music to the masses? I think that a lot of people forget that in the 50's even the radio stations were segregated. Elvis always aknowledged black entertainers as his major influences. He was a product of his enviroment. He never set out to steal anything. If anything he was the Trojan Horse that introduced black music and culture to suburban America.

Right on Beatnix, he was an insurgent, in the best possible way

I can't comment on this ... I shouldn't comment on this ...
{ohmigod shatner-particles detected ... can't .... reisst ... their .... PULL}

I won't go point for point, but I will note, I've seen PE a couple of times in a high school gym in Montreal (several members couldn't make it over the border). They played at 2am for about 30 minutes and left).

However, I will say Hank Shocklee and the Bomb Squad are geniuses, and if you confuse the declarations of Chuck D (middle class child of the suburbs of Long Island) with what is on record, then you are confusing what makes PE among one of the greatest (and better than the Beastie Boys) rap acts ever. But then I have a record with Bob Dylan rapping with Kurtis Blow.

Pop music is full of blowhards (David Lee Roth, anybody?) but that shouldn't be deducted from their recordings or live shows (in the case of rap acts, most live shows are promo vehicles for the records, so deal with the records).

PE were one of the first and best rap acts to make albums, rather than a collection of singles.

And if you've read Peter Guralnick's bios of Elivs, you know he wasn't a simple cracker, but was rooted in the Negro gospel tradition.

So stop all the baiting, and spend more time on what is good.

Jim, you have said many fine things of late.

Jim, you have said many fine things of late.

Just give me a chance, that's all I ask, I can fix that toot sweet.

Your blog critic is an idiot and should be taken outside and shot unceremoniuosly, without any last words. He is a bigoted, middle-aged loser who obviously did not connect with rap or rap audiences black or white. Step off you fat white slob, and let the youth decide what is relevant, you puke!

Fortunately, we don't live in a world where people can murder others with impunity. Calm down a bit - it's bad for your heart to get so irate.

Somebody isn't playing well with others.

Silly request, but can anyone direct me to this Dylan-Blow rap?

I for one think Chuck D and Elvis Presley are both important. I can see where Chuck is coming from especially since Elvis made anti Panther comments rooted in ignorance. I also believe that Elvis has been maligned unfairly by those who label him a racist without fully understanding him and the impact of his music. This has all been a great read. Thanks!

I agree HC, thanks. Wasn't someone else called that for a time in the '50s?

I'm neither white nor black nor jewish, but I respect both PE and BBoys. PE is closer to my heart, however, while the BBoys had a great way with party anthems and melodic songs, but not much substance until later.

Yes, some of PE's past lyrics are anti-semitic, and they bother me because Chuck should be unifying, not dividing, but I don't concentrate on them. I can listen to Patti Smith's "Rock and Roll Nigger" without flinching.

But, Fear of a Black Planet, to me, will always be - the hip hop album of hip hop albums - I still get shivers down my spine when I listen to it. It's just all this repressed energy coming out, controlled and directed. Complete punk rock.

Well now, this has been an interesting read. Believe it or not, I stumbled upon this conversation because I was actually looking for various versions of "The Signifying Monkey".

So far, the best version of the story that I've found, if anyone is interested, is by Rudy Ray Moore, a.k.a. "Dolomite," (possibly downloadable in 8-minute mp3 form). It's a great story, and a great example of proto-rap, coming ten years before the Sugar Hill Gang, Afrika Bambaata, or Grandmaster Flash, none of whom, I'm very surprised to see, have been mentioned above.

In Moore's version, he describes graphically what happens to someone who tries to get over one too many times: they become dinner for the one-too-many-times fooled Lion. Of course, Moore tells it better than that! (Not for sensitive ears!)

The story was done again in the 80s by Schooly D, who I believe caused a bit of a legal stir by using the beat from Led Zeppelin's Kashmir in the background.

In modern terms, one might say that if you try to step out of place too many times, you find yourself caught in the crosshairs... a sort of public enemy. In that sense, Chuck D might readily acknowledge that he (or Flava Flav as Jim pointed out) is sort of like the signifying monkey of the old story.

Except for one critical error there, Al. I may get accused of trifling here, but bear with me. I think the reason so many people took offense to your initial statement was the use of "a" instead of "the" and also lower case letters in "signifying monkey." Whether you meant to or not, you called Chuck D a monkey. You didn't say he was "the Signifying Monkey." What you did was like saying, "Dr. Dre and Ice Cube are niggers...

with attitude."

Get it? Got it? Good. Check out Dolomite!

excellent assessment Ted, thanks

This goes back to an African legend about a weak-ass little monkey what signifies ie makes empty signals with no backing ie talks a lot of lying bullshit to try turning bigger animals against one another. As you might expect, the monkey generally ends up getting EATEN for his bother.

Al, you read a one-page description of something [the Signifying Monkey], misinterpreted it, and then assigned a single, negative meaning to it.

Ironically, the SM is all about double meaning, ambiguity, figurative speech, etc. In African-American history, the consequences of speaking literally or of having the hidden meaning of figurative language discovered were quite severe. The SM folktale points that out. [There are tons of versions of the story, from what I've read, and some of them end on a happier note for the monkey.]

So the SM specifically DOESN'T make "empty signals with no backing". It's just the opposite: what he says is full of meaning. It's just not literal.

As Joe points out in #31, the SM can be traced back to Yoruba mythology and then forward to the African-American oral tradition and beyond.

In Yoruba mythology, the figure is Esu-Elegbara. He's powerful because he can divine the messages of the gods and translate them for man. His interpretations are linguistic tricks often laced with double meaning.

Esu's African-American descendant is the Signifying Monkey. He has many other descendants in other countries, as well. The African-American figurative use of the word signifying -- to deliberately play with language, to repeat it and change it, to exaggerate, to say one thing and mean another -- is 200 years old. It has carried over from the oral tradition of slaves into literature, word games, and music [hello jazz!].

Rap -- and therefore the Beastie Boys -- wouldn't exist without the SM.

Oh yeah, and you did call ChuckD a monkey.

Alrighty then BHW, what was the subtle, hidden non-literal meaning Chuck D had in mind when he disrespected Elvis?

Elvis was a hero to most
But he never meant shit to me you see
Straight up racist that sucker was
Simple and plain
Motherfuck him and John Wayne

Maybe he doesn't mean the hateful and unsubstantiated words he says, but I'm not seeing some deep seated irony or metaphor here. Perhaps you could dumb it down for a Kentuckian, because to me it just looks like Chuck is being a hateful demagogue.

Being called a "monkey" would be the LEAST cussing he deserves for his maliciousness.

I do, however, appreciate that there may be numerous versions of the story, with significantly different shades of meaning applied by different people. That happens with tribal legends. Hell, Jesse Jackson and Pat Robertson worship the same savior, Jesus.

Hey, at this time in history I'm a nouveau LaRouchie, but I remember when...Little Richard sure shook it up!! As Mr. LaRouche might say, it was pure whorehouse abandon--and Mr. Dynamite James Brown was born right about then and there. But Martin Luther King was riding the crest of the same wave, and even Mr. Penniman became a reverend of some pre-subgenius church of the repentant sodomite. The screaming, as you say, wasn't everything, and it ain't everything. But Little Richard was a fifties master of asymmetric cultural warfare.

Larry White (new reader)

Hello, Larry. Someone coming in identifying themselves as some kind of Laroucher will tend to at least cause me to raise an eyebrow, but you seem reasonable and sociable here.

Also "master of asymmetric cultural warfare" is a pretty nice turn of phrase.

Ya know, Al. Just the fact that you wrote a big-ass article on Chuck D and received a big-ass response and debate, wouldn't that prove that Chuck D is highly important in not just rap, or even music, but the whole American culture?

Ha ha! good point - but what if it's all just about big asses?

Oh, I don't know Dude. People go ON and ON about Scott Peterson, and that boy ain't shit.

Michael Jackson to be VP mate with Kerry. Two jerk off's what more do the queer folks need/want.

Al's article seemed to be more on the Beastie boys not getting enough recognition than Chuck D. I definitly agree that the beastie boys are underrated. I haven't heard anyone in rap combine rock, rap and even house like they have. Actually, I haven't heard one rap group do that. Another thing great about the Beastie boys is that none of their stuff sounds the same to me. On Hello Nasty they even have Lounge music on there.

And on Chuck D, it seems kind of pointless to try and get a political message across to people while putting people down by their race. Because of that, he shouldn't get as much recognition as he gets. It almost seems as if people magically forgot that.

i think as black artists, there is a social responsiblity to adhere to. i commend PE for remembering that persepective. there are too many acts today that prostitute themselves for the almighty dollar and care nothing about themselves or their race. to be a contributing member of the human race, you must first develop a deep love and understanding for yourself. this means you must denounce and eradicate the injustices that plague you and all those who fight your struggle alongside you. Kudos PE

Desi, thanks for your thoughtful comments. However, I think that PE were essentially prostituting themselves for the almighty dollar.

When Nina Simone, for example, wrote the uber-classic "Missisippi Goddam," that was a strong personal statement. It wasn't just image mongering, or pandering to some market niche. Ol' gal had something on her mind.

PE, on the other hand, was hucksterism. They were casting a commercial image, marketing themselves for one thing to white college boy types. Their S1W paramilitary was schtick to sell records.

I never saw this ridiculous post before.

How was no one offended by this race-baiting idiocy?

This poor excuse for a writer uses the word "Negro" TWICE to refer to blacks. Yeah, we get it, you're being all South Park and immature, but you're doing it because you take some perverse delight in playing with prejudice.

In what bizarre world is "Negro" not offensive? Even you're not that out of touch and ignorant, Senator. You know exactly what you were trying to do and don't try and cover up with that wussy "you should see what I call my white friends" nonsense. Do you KNOW any black people? Ever know any when you were growing up? Go call them "Negro" right now and see how much they want to be your friend after that. And don't invent some fake story about how you're friendly toward this or that black person, because only a person with NO experience of diversity would write something like this and use the words you do.

So you don't like Chuck D. That's fine. I think he's overrated musically and politically too. But to use that as an excuse to trot out ugly, ignorant, and backwards language is something that even you should be ashamed of.

Just like your "Rosa Parks was no hero" post, you're race-baiting here to feel like you're some Internet provocateur. It's cheap and ugly.

And the only reason you used "signifying monkey" was as an excuse to call a black man you don't like a monkey. Be a man and admit it.

You have no knowledge of African folk tropes or what a "signifying monkey" even means in African tradition. I dare you, Senator, to educate us on your background in West African and Yoruban folk literature and the trickster figure and how signification has worked in the African diaspora.

Olsen and everyone else, can you really read this and be proud to have this sort of human being writing on your site? You know, I was honestly considering going legit this week and signing up for this site to do reviews and more formal blog-type stuff. But then I read stuff like this and I really wonder what kind of community I'd be getting into.

Maybe MacDiva and others had a point about how the tone of this site can be a somewhat hostile climate to people of diverse backgrounds. Do you see ANY writers of color besides Natalie Davis?

Did you read this, Natalie Davis?

I find it disgusting and sad.

That is all.

And if any of this is edited, shame on you, all of you, for your absolute lack of perspective.

Leave Al's words for everyone to see and mine and everyone else's as well.

If he's proud of infantile social rhetoric, then leave it up for the world to see.

That is all.

When I saw the title of this thread on the sidebar, I had a sinking feeling in my stomach and I really hoped that it was not written by the author I expected it to be written by.

But people have a funny way of being predictable and continuing to disappoint you even more than you thought was already possible.

That is all.

Bob A. Booey: How was no one offended by this race-baiting idiocy?

You know, I could swear this thread used to be a lot longer, with numerous outraged and outrageous comments; but I could be confusing it with another.

In what bizarre world is "Negro" not offensive?

The world of about fifteen years ago, if I recall correctly.

Actually, I think it's a bizarre world where mere words are so offensive, let alone one where the criteria change so arbitrarily in just a few years.

Ugh, I'd forgotten about this post, probably on purpose.

All you need to know about the developmental psychology of the person writing this is that he begins his first comment, apropos of nothing, talking about how he was surprised that the audience wasn't dangerous and criminal and the he felt "relatively safe." Only a fearful racist would say such a thing for no reason.

And then there's grade A BS like this:

"A sister once told me that I'm really a black man who happened to have white skin. I don't have words for how pleased I was with that."

So that makes your race-baiting OK? Who is this "sister" exactly? And yeah, you're so deep and soulful because you listen to Prince and pretend to like Marvin Gaye and went to a PE concert that you can't see the difference between calling blacks "monkeys" and your white nephew.

This seems to be a disturbing pattern for you, Senator. I had to teach you a lesson on the recent Native mascots thread when you and your other backwoods buddy were having some fun playing around loosely with the term "monkey" and mocking the impact of hate speech on black people.

"Nor do we do black folks a favor by refusing to hold them to equal standards of civil discourse. Good liberals seem to me to be treating you like children with all kinds of double standards and double talk."

You need to be treated like a child because you haven't developed an adult psyche. If you were back in grade school, you would be reprimanded for calling blacks "Negroes." How on Earth is that civil discourse?

Fess up and be a man for once. You know NOTHING about the trope of the "signifying monkey," you've NEVER read anything about African folk literature, and you trotted out a phrase you read ONCE on the Internet as an excuse to call a black man a "monkey" and hide behind some literary concept you know NOTHING about. Just admit it, Al.

Cowardice. Ugly and ignorant cowardice.

Thanks to Natalie and anyone else who commented at the time. Sorry I wasn't around then to regulate.

That is all.

I don't believe in censorship, but if anyone edits anything I or anyone else said on this comment while the Senator calls people "Negroes" and accuses others of "emotional baggage" in a fit of projection and personal attack, I'm done with this site for good.

So take that as you will.

That is all.

Is that a promise, Bob?

Dr. Pat: if this is the kind of ugly speech and thought you condone and if it's really what you'd rather have than my contributions, then yes, I guarantee it.

The Senator can write this kind of crap for the rest of his hateful life for all I care. Good luck with that.

That is all.

JR, I don't think anything has been edited out of this comment thread.

RE: "Negro" When did that word come to be offensive, and why? Best I can tell, it would be the most clinically correct designation, equivalent to "caucasian."

And what kind of foolishness is it that PE's race baiting eg the Arizona video is cool- indeed, a bold political statement- but "Negro" is a racist offense of some kind by many of those same people?

"Clinically correct?" What the hell? You've lost it now. Tell me EXACTLY how that's "clinically correct" since you're a doctor now apparently. What bizarre Mengele clinic are you talking about? Either you're out of touch and really in need of some learning or you're playing dumb to be really annoying and hateful. I'll assume the former and suspect the latter:

Here's some etymology from two professors at Ferris State University
on how "nigger" was derived from "Negro" and how they share the same common lineage:

"The etymology of nigger is often traced to the Latin niger, meaning black. The Latin niger became the noun negro (black person) in English, and simply the color black in Spanish and Portuguese. In Early Modern French niger became negre and, later, negress (black woman) was clearly a part of lexical history. One can compare to negre the derogatory nigger - and earlier English variants such as negar, neegar, neger, and niggor - which developed into a parallel lexico-semantic reality in English. It is likely that nigger is a phonetic spelling of the white Southern mispronunciation of Negro. Whatever its origins, by the early 1800s it was firmly established as a denigrative epithet. Almost two centuries later, it remains a chief symbol of white racism."

And here's Wikipedia on why polite people haven't used the word since the 1970s:

"The term "negro", literally "black," was used by the Spanish and Portuguese to refer to black Africans and people with that heritage. From the 18th century to the mid-20th century, "negro" (later capitalized) was considered the correct and proper term for African Americans. It fell out of favor by the 1970s in the United States. [...]

Controversy around the word "Negro" has spread to many languages, to a greater or lesser extent, because many have come to perceive the usage of any word similar to "Negro" with respect to black people in any language as a possible form of insult."

Black folks don't want you calling them Negroes and I'm fairly convinced I'm wasting my time trying to teach you anything since you're being disingenuous about your mock surprise, especially given the context of your entire post, which is an excuse to call a black man a "monkey" because it's easy to snicker at misusing a literary term for racist connotations. And it's fun and easy to snicker at Chef from South Park and think he represents black folks in your world and to write immature posts about how Rosa Parks was a nobody and not a hero to be respected, knowing exactly what reaction you're hoping for.

You're not really this backwoods and the rural Indiana/Kentucky thing is no excuse. Be a man for once.

I haven't seen the Arizona video, so I can't speak to it. But the people who were against honoring MLK in that era were some of the most backwards politicians in the country. If you choose to stand with them, so be it.

That is all.

And who are "those same people," exactly? "Negroes"?

Let's be honest here about what you mean to say.

That is all.

Haven't read the other comments, but I do know what the signifying monkey is, learned it from an old book called Rapping and Styling out.

That said, we've seen this kind of crap again and again and again from Barger. It's a pattern, and an adolescent one at best - and I know that he's not chronologically an adolescent.

My pet peeve happens to be people who's pet peeve is political correctness, because, of course, the opposite extreme is so very much worse.

Little anecdote: when I was a kid I moved from a Black neighborhood to a lilly white one, and was suddenly confronted by all these vile little Bargers saying things like "I don't hate Black people, I just hate niggers." I tended to respond irrationally.

Public Enemy were great; I listened to It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back constantly; especially when running or working out. I didn't always like the politics, and I'd have loved to sit down with Chuck D and argue some of those songs with him. On other issues, he and his bud Flav were right on.

As music, it delivered fresh new punches, something I always want in new music.

Then when Fear Of A Black Planet came out, I listened to that one incessently. I'd still have the same arguments and offer the same praise in regards to that one.

I'll take 'em over Beastie Boys in a heartbeat, much as the Beastie Boys are OK in my book.

I lost touch with them after that; I moved overseas, discovered other music.

A few months ago I played them for the first time in maybe 13 years. Got me movin' round the house in an instant. Great stuff, worthy of its legend maybe even more so, even with the uneven quality of the lyrics. As music, it's great, and the lyrics are dead-on sometimes.

As for the debate on the language used in the post and replies, I think it wasn't a good idea, and enough people seem offended by it that it would be a mistake not worth repeating. But I do believe the writer didn't intend to offend. But I always think people need to consider the baggage of iffy words when they write, because words are all a writer has.

I'll paraphrase "race-baiting Negro" Malcolm X here:

I have much more respect for the racist wolf who lets you know he's against you than the sly fox who waits for you to fall asleep.

I have even less respect for unfunny, unlearned people who hide behind passive-aggressive race-baiting, self-proclaimed "satire" without moral foundation and concepts they're unfamiliar with to get a reaction. If you want to call black people "Negroes" and "monkeys" and criticize civil rights, go right ahead and defend it. Don't claim mock ignorance and surprise when people are offended and take weird positions to hint at a larger point you're afraid to come out and make.

Hyenas are scavengers, not predators. And you can't hunt, big boy. That much is clear to us all.

That is all.

UAO, I'm all about Fear of a Black Planet, but I just do not see what was so great about Nation of Millions. Just not a memorable collection of songs at all.

Godoggo, that "I don't hate Black people, I just hate niggers" thing you cite- that wasn't me. If memory serves, that was Chris Rock. Take it up with him.

Note to self: do not use the term "negro".

Okay, got it. I must have missed the original memo.

Er... now whom do I write this check out to?

How does this thing with the racial terminology work anyway? Do they have a special black folks meeting every couple of years where they change the pass words, and which words are proper and offensive? Then when Whitey uses the old word, they GOT him!

But moreover, how do the likes of Goddoggo get let in on the new lingo? Does he get to go to the meetings with Bill Clinton on account of their special exquisite sensitivities, being down with the Brother Man?

The UNCF was founded early in the last century, when that was the common usage, genius.

Yeah, that's right, black folks are just out to get YOU and deny you your basic right to be offensive and hateful and exclusionary. How dare they object to the name you call them! You're right to be afraid of them and make fun of Rosa Parks and call them "negroes." After all, they disagree with your childish words. And they killed Kenny!

They're just signifying, those monkeys.

They're all talk and can't back it up from behind their keyboards. Oh wait, that's ...

all.

Here's how I figure on the etymology and the 20th century usage preferences for terms for black people.

(I intensely dislike such words as 'black' and 'white' as signifyers of anything anyway, because I don't believe in the fundamental concept of race as a real thing -only people's misunderstanding of it is real- but that's a post for a different day, different thread)

The etymologies vis-a-vis "nigger" and "Negro" make sense to me in how they evolved. It also makes sense that "Negro" would therefore be looked upon as a suspect term.

What isn't clearly explained is who used "Negro" first as reference to black people? Was it a black or a white?

I suspect it was a term adopted by whites first as a means of classification. By the general Enlightenment of the Civil Rights movement, it became a term many of both colors saw as wrong; too uncomfortably connected to the epithet, and too much another example of whites trying to define what black is.

Some whites and blacks in some regions adopted "colored" for awhile, but again it seemed to suggest a difference from the norm, something that would only occur to a white.

After segregation ended officially in 1968, "Negro" and "colored" were still frequently used by well-meaning whites as well as racists.

In the early 70's (when I was a kid in a 60% black working class neighborhood in NY), I first started hearing blacks use "Afro American"; hairstyles were "Afros". This seems to me to be the first black attempt to redefine itself as part of a lineage with roots. This coincided with "Roots", the Panthers, the Women's Rights movement, the antiwar movement -all of which drew mixed groups of support-, and were the first to gain widespread usage among whites.

"Afro-" wound up not being the perfect term; it fairly screams 1970's, and it's a reduced form; in the 1980's "African American" was the te-tooled term, on par with "Irish American" "Italian American" "French Canadian" etc.

This gave the term equal footing. But it has its own drawbacks. I seldom refer to "Irish American" as its own distinct culture, nor do I routinely even use the term. I usually refer to 'my friend Tom', not 'my Irish-American friend Tom'.

Also, African-American makes some assumptions that aren't necessarily true; black people, just like white people and all people, all races, don't have a monolithic history. Some black people emigrated from Africa in the last decade or two, others ancestors were brought as slaves; are the two similar culturally? About as similar as a redneck and a yuppie.

Which brings us back to black and white, the terms I despise. I stick to music posts; I don't post cultural/social issues, others here are way better at that. But when race is an issue in my articles, I stick to "white" and "black" and "interracial" (i.e., the band was one of the first interracial bands to tour the south; the bassist and singer were white, the drummer and guitarist were white).

Some white people think this confusion of appropriate terms is too much bother to keep up with, or irrelevant, or a way of black people to annoy whites or something.

But it's not; it takes more than a generation or two to develop language. Given the history involved, we use the best possible words we have, and those words should come from the people they describe. And whites can be gracious for once by not grumbling about it. It takes time.

Is how I see it.

The 1960s and 1970s also saw "black" become a term of pride and self-identification.

There was no such thing with the colonial language of "Negro," which comes from the original French term for Africans that we now derive "nigger" from as well.

Blacks in this country came from all over Africa, but they're united in a diasporic way by a common legacy of struggle in this country.

And Al Barger understands none of it.

That is all.

TYPO: In the illustration of the band, one of those "white" should be "black", I'll let the reader choose either one.

Sorry, Al; despite my post today officially proclaiming Elvis as God (and He is, praise Elvis), the refutation on Trader Mike is pretty much right on.

It's also fair to note, for you AND Trader Mike, that Chuck has retracted his comments about Elvis and actually expresses respect for him these days.

Wow! I only just now realized that this is a two-year-old thread. I also saw it in the sidebar. Huh.

I love Elvis and Elvis loved black music.

Elvis wouldn't have liked this stupid piece.

That is all.

Yes, Mike, Chuck D has significantly toned down his rhetoric as a more mature person. That's good, as I've also noted in another old column. I'll note, however, that it was not just that Elvis quote that annoyed me. In itself, it's just a minor point that wouldn't have been worth noting.

In fact, it was not primarily the Elvis quote, but the whole calculated way in which they played to every worst and least productive bit of racial resentment and paranoia in the black community purely as commercial schtick.

I spoke harshly here of Chuck D basically because I believe their cheesy radical chic was hateful, disreputable, and ultimately bad for the whole community of all colors.

Naturally, calling out this racial demagogue makes ME the bad guy. Imagine how impressed I am to see the silly white boys competing to show how morally superior they are to evil ol' Al, and to demonstrate their exquisite sensitivities to the plight of minorities- as if their baroque displays of empathy did anybody any bit of good.

And it wasn't the racial/political component that bothered me. (Everybody's entitled to their opinion, after all, and that means you're entitled to your opinion about other people's opinions.) Just the musical component.

Objectively speaking, there really was no other rap/hip-hop performer that had the impact and influence that Public Enemy had. You might personally like the Beastie Boys better, but in terms of importance...well, Eric Olsen is correct.

Okay Michael, I've cooled a bit in the last couple of years on the Beastie Boys. I could at least halfway see if you rated PE over the Beasties.

But please don't tell me that you think they're musically in a league with either Elvis.

Damn, that's a lot of comments. However, I had to stop when Al declared the Beastie Boys to be the greatest rap act of all time.

C'mon, Al. You have such a vast knowledge of music... so how do you pull statements like this out of your piehole?

Beasties good? Yeah.

BUT WU TANG IS FOR THE CHILDREN!

xoxo,
LM

Well, Al, seeing as how I declared Elvis to be the Deity today, it's fairly tough for me to put anyone else in his league.

As for the other Elvis--well, admittedly I'm less familiar with his work than I am with PE (I only have his first three), but I do tend to listen to PE more frequently...

Al, I'm not white.

These words fit your writing awfully well too:

"worst and least productive bit of racial resentment and paranoia [...] hateful, disreputable, and ultimately bad for the whole community of all colors."

If you had just called out Chuck D and said you don't like his music and politics, that's fine. But calling him a "Negro" and finding some convoluted way to call him a "monkey" without being man enough to be upfront about what we all know you were really saying shows you're far more reactionary than he ever was.

I don't like Chuck D, but at least he was making his stand against some of the most backwards politicians in the country who were employing race-baiting rhetoric to refuse honoring MLK. What's the point of your race-baiting? Who are you defending or standing with?

And I'll leave it to any reader of this stupid post to determine who the "silly" one is.

Have some courage for just once and answer me. Be accountable for your fears and empty words.

That is all.

And my "baroque displays of empathy" allow me to function in the adult world as an engaged human being with moral responsibility and regard for others. I'm able to influence people beyond trying to provoke them with passive-aggressive race-baiting, ill-founded prejudices, patently obvious insecurities and childish attention-seeking.

That is all.

Geez, Bob. I tend to agree with you politically (most of the time), but what's the deal with you filling your comments to Al with personal insults, then demanding a response from him?

No offense, but if you launched that kind of vitriol at me, I wouldn't respond to it either.

Monkey, "WU TANG IS FOR THE CHILDREN"? Now you now that ain't right.

Personal insults? The dude gets outraged and insults other people who respond to his race-baiting. I'd say calling black people "Negro" and trivializing the use of "monkey" in reference to them in not one but TWO separate threads counts as a pretty serious personal insult more worthy of concern.

He doesn't respond not because he's offended but because he's afraid of me.

Go back to the old Cosby race discussion there where I had to educate our dear Senator and make his racially backwards arguments look silly. He's been afraid of debating me ever since.

That is all.

Hey man, they said it, not me... at the Grammy Awards several years ago.

But I do love me some Wu Tang. "Triumph" is poetry, nothing more, nothing less.

Now ignore me and go stand toe-to-toe with BAB, because I want to see this argument played out. I've got popcorn.

What's even more comical is that someone who claims to be so out of touch that they still use "Negro" tries to pass himself off as some sort of expert on hip hop and Prince. Oh please. Which is it?

I welcome it, but I guarantee there'll be no going toe-to-toe. He evades and hides every opportunity he gets. He's a hyena in the jungle, not even good enough to be a signifying monkey. I'm way too alpha for him to argue with and he won't even defend his ridiculous words he wrote here with anything more than the limpest offering: "What good does all your empathy do, huh? Oh my God, they killed Kenny!"

That is all.

Let's see that "hawk" side, big man. Summon up all your courage like your hero the President and give us some tough talk right about now.

You cite Malcolm X approvingly. Well take his words to heart and respond when you've been called out, Senator. Show us what you really mean to say instead of hiding behind cheap jokes.

That is all.

Poking with pointy sticks, I hear, is all the rage in schoolyard debate these days.

3rd grade conversation is all he responds to. Have you read anything he's written?

That is all.

Trying hard to allow head-space for your opinion, but there are so many places where the "point" of P.E. seems to have shot about 500 miles over your head.

Here's why P.E. once dominated their corner of the rap market, and why they'll always be lifted in praise:

1. Their wild, piercing tracks were fresh to Black ears back then. No, the "music" may not stand the litmus test of time. But to judge an act on instrumentation and performance alone lacks depth.

2. Speaking the minds of disenfranchised, inner city youth was an essential echo in the Black Power movement. P.E. need not apologize for filling that void, giving voice to the little understood.

So basically, you've argued an irrelevant point. I don't want to say "P.E. wasn't about the music." Guess I'd just say you might expand your ideas about what makes music work. There's more to it than mere instruments and voice. Other currencies include soul expression, psychical communication, and even imagery (water guns though they may be - lol).

That these ingredients missed you is okay, but telling.

Welcome Vigi, and perhaps you can enlighten me. I am open for correction. Perhaps you could break down for me a bit of knowledge on how "soul expression, psychical communication, and even imagery" are expressed in practice, where the artistic nuances are that I may well be missing.

Note however, that I'm not saying here that Public Enemy didn't make any good music. I reiterate that Fear of a Black Planet may be one of the top ten best ever hip hop albums.

My criticism is meta-musical, stuff that strikes me as cheap racial hucksterism, mere radical chic.

Goodness me, I guess my P. C. meter must be malfunctioning, cause I hate to say it but I couldn't see anything racist in any of what Al said. At no point did her refer to any person as a monkey, he actually, as another comentator pointed out, showed an understanding of another culture that was suprising and refreshing for this day and age.

All I was going to comment on was the point about lack of feeling threatened at the concert. I'm not a rap fan, so I've never been to a gig by a rap act, but when it came to feeling like I was in the wrong place, albiet only a little, was at a Peter Tosh concert, when he sang, Black Man, and me and my buddy were two of very few pale faces in amongst a crowd of a couple of thousand.

We turned and looked at each other, and started to giggle, then went back to enjoying the show. Threat is in the ear and mind of the beholder, or like Al I'm just too stupid to know better.

peace and love from the nice moderate gypsyman

Oops. Sorry, wrong folder. I was looking for the one where the Comanche dude equates Janet Jackson with a gorilla.

Peace, Boyz.

S

By the way: for those interested in a critical analysis of RAP music from a white, self-proclaimed "hillbilly", Libertarian Senatorial candidate from Indiana, I found a thread where a Hassidic Jew from Tel Aviv is expounding on the qualities of barbequed pork rib joints in West Texas.

~Makes sense to me!

Where does he show understanding of "another culture," Gypsyman?

By having ill-informed opinions about rap music?

Quote ANY sentences Al wrote on this topic that show he has any appreciation for or understanding of black people, racial language, African literature, black culture or the struggle against prejudice.

That is all.

Thanks Gypsyman. The thing is that in some quarters a white dude cannot significantly criticize ANY black person claiming any supposed racial grievance, no matter how specious or malicious. My criticism here is of a specific black man for specific statements and actions. This is of course exactly not racism.

Again, that PE/DU show was one of the best concert experiences I've had. They had some good acts all at their creative peak. We was all one nation under a groove doing "The Humpty Dance."

The faux Black Panthers stuff with the S1W dance troop worked really well as entertainment on the stage. It went with the agit-prop sound of their musical approach to make a most entertaining package, causing me to spend my money on more PE albums- exactly the point of the display.

But of course I wasn't taking their political message to heart. I recognized it for schtick, like the Clash or the MC5. I suspect that some young black guys, ill-educated in crappy government schools with poorly trained critical thinking skills, further encouraged to racial paranoia and victimhood from all directions might take stuff like this seriously, which is just not going to be good for them or any part of the community.

This did seem less likely however seen in the context of this concert, mixed in with the light pop of Kid N Play and the goofy Humpty Hump. Good times.

You can criticize art without going for cheap-shots. And your "criticize any black man and you're a racist" strawman argument isn't something anyone's actually said. It's typical evasion and deflection from an intellectually and morally unsubstantial writer.

You're racially backwards because of the language you use. It's a little odd that you take Chuck D to task for going after politicians who didn't want to recognize MLK, but your points about his music or his posing in concerts may be valid.

Your use of "Negro" and cheap, calculated misuse of the literary term "signifying monkey" as a title to get attention isn't valid.

It's stupid and offensive, much like your Rosa parks thread or your trivializing of calling blacks "monkeys" on the Native mascots thread. This is getting to be a disturbing pattern even for you, Senator.

That is all.

You say Chuck D is a poseur who can't back it up, but you continue to hide from your own words.

If you're going to race-bait, at least be a man about it.

Malcolm X would laugh at you. I laugh at you.

That is all.

what that nigga said was true, jews are responsible for the wickedness on the planet

Okay public enemy! Genius, pure genius. Someone who comments on Elvis as some great musician should be able to say why public enemy is what it is. They were people doing the right things at the right time, was Elvis any different. What makes public enemy so hot? They did it with their own style, their own lyrics, and they built themselves. Unlike Elvis, whose style can be traced to Jackie Wiilson, Chuck Berry, and Little Richard, not to mention the dance moves that can be cited back to the original black swing dancers of the early 1900s. He's been able to get away with the greatest the greatest robbery in history via this music business, only to be followed up by simply red and Milli Vanilli!

Now the Beastie Boys, I will say they did their thing in a major way, but one of the greatest; never that! I must agree with my man, Wu Tang forever! LOL

I'm out ya'll half gorilla, half mayonaise monkey! :+) How does that make you feel?

Mullatochic, do ya gots a body hot enough to justify that sharp tongue? Enquiring minds want to know.

Now I grant that Elvis did not invent blues scales, nor appear entirely out of the blue with no form of precedent- though the things that he came from were half white, most notably Hank Snow.

However, Public Enemy did not entirely show up out of the blue either. James Brown comes to mind, for starters.

That's cool too- way to use your influences to make something new and different. But Elvis didn't go around being disrespectful like that to people- especially not gratuitously as in "Fight the Power."

As to being "half gorilla, half mayonaise monkey," I don't know. Half mayonaise monkey, half Kentuckian perhaps. Then again, the distinction between a gorilla and a Kentuckian might be tomato vs to-ma-toe to some less than carefully discerning folk. It's all good.

For the white deniers and racial double standard types, here is some ditties from White America's favorite bands who have influenced Murder,Rape, and Mayhem amongst your youth. And this will be my last post on this site, as many of my Black friends have told me in the past and recently, "White Americans wouldn't know a double standard or truth if fucked them in the ass". I always thought 'your race' wouldn't know it If you spotted them the 'Double'.


big man with a gun

i am a big man
(yes i am)
and i have a big gun
got me a big old dick and i
i like to have fun
held against your forehead
i'll make you suck it
maybe i'll put a hole in your head
you know, just for the fuck of it
i can reduce you if i want
i can devour
i'm hard as fucking steel, and i've got the power
i'm every inch a man, and i'll show you somehow
me and my fucking gun
nothing can stop me now
shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot
i'm going to come all over you
me and my fucking gun
me and my fucking gun


Not to be Outdone Marilyn Manson


Get Your Gunn
goddamn your righteous hand
i eat innocent meat
the housewife i will beat
the prolife i will kill
what you won't do i will
i bash myself to sleep
what you sow i will reap
i scar myself you see
i wish i wasn't me
i am the little stick
you stir me into shit
goddamn your righteous hand
goddamn, goddamn (oh, lord)
goddamn, goddamn
pseudo-morals work real well
on the talk shows for the weak
but your selective judgements
and goodguy badges
don't mean a fuck to me
i throw a little fit
i slit my teenage wrist
the most that i can learn
is in records that you burn
get your gunn, get your gunn
get your gunn, get your gunn
pseudo-morals work real well
on the talk shows for the weak
but your selective judgements
and goodguy badges
don't mean a fuck to me
i am the vhs
record me with your fist
you want me to save the world
i'm just a little girl
pseudo-morals work real well
on the talk shows for the weak
but your selective judgements
and goodguy badges
don't mean a fuck to me
get your gunn, get your gunn
get your gunn, get your gunn...get

And never to be outdone welcome to the wonderful world of Nercophillia courtsey of Slayer

5. Necrophiliac

[Lyrics Hanneman/King; Music Hanneman]

Mortuaries, dead of night
My body starts to rise
In my mind the horror lives
To feel death deep inside

Relentless lust of rotting flesh
To thrash the tomb she lies
Heathen whore of Satan's wrath
I spit at your demise

Virgin child now drained of life
Your soul cannot be free
Not given the chance to rot in Hell

Satan's cross points to Hell
The earth I must uncover
A passion grows to feast upon
The frozen blood inside her

I feel the urge the growing need
To fuck this sinful corpse
My tasks complete the bitch's soul
Lies raped in demonic lust

[Lead - King]

Her stomach bursts the casket breaks
The seed has taken form
A writhing shape of twisted flesh
The Devil's child is thrown

Hungry for the smell of Death
He rules forbidden evil
Vengeance with a frenzied hatred
The bastard now must die

Lost souls of the dead
Form legions that burst through Hell's Gates
Death of one sacrifice
To avenge the raped corpse from the grave
Blood of one mortal man
The fire grows stronger within
Fate of a frenzied lust
Lucifer takes my dark soul

Down to the fiery pits of Hell
(Down to the fiery pits of HELL)

[Lead - Hanneman]


Now these songs may have inspired a grave robber or two or not, people have free will in this world (unless you are a black american)Or As Barger asserts If you are a young black person you can't discern between NWA's gangsta fantasies and the fact that some of these black kids may have dealt with police officers of all "races' but particularly white ones who have harassed them for even going into a store. Oh that's being a victim and we can't have amongst you WHITE P.C. ers. But I quess that's why Black People hate white american folks more. You see what you want to see. I bid U Adieu, and there is already a race war, It's called American Politics.

White Irish Catholic girl with Jewish boyfriend and 1/2 Jewish son thinks Chuck D is in top 3 of all-time hottest sexiest mutha-fuckers.