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An Interview With Prof. Norman Finkelstein

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Prof. Norman Finkelstein is a prominent and well-respected scholar of the Israel/Palestine conflict. He has written several books on the topic, most notably The Rise and Fall of Palestine and Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict. His most recent work, Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History, is a devastating rebuttal of both Alan Dershowitz’s The Case For Israel and, more generally, defenders of Israel’s human rights record.

For some reason, Prof. Finkelstein’s views are often referred to as “controversial” or even “radical”.  In fact, the position he articulates is supported by international law and such “radical” organisations as the World Court and Amnesty International. Several of Prof. Finkelstein’s talks, and much else besides, can be viewed on his website.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at PhotobucketI asked him a few questions about the current state of the conflict (embedded links added by me, obviously).

Israeli PM Ehud Olmert recently declared that “I’ll never accept a solution that is based on their [the Palestinian refugees] return to Israel, any number”, and “I will not agree to accept any kind of Israeli responsibility for the refugees. Full stop.”, on the grounds that the refugee problem was created when Arab countries attacked the newly-formed State of Israel (hence, one presumes, he places the responsibility on the aggressor Arab states). What do you think of this view?

The refugee question is a red herring. It serves the same purpose now as the Palestinian Covenant did in the 1970s-1980s; to divert attention from Israel’s refusal to fully withdraw. Israel knows that the international community will be sympathetic to its stand regarding the refugees but not sympathetic on borders/settlements, so it’s trying to divert attention from the latter, and towards the former.

Israel and its apologists consistently justify such policies as the annexation wall and, indeed, the occupation in general on security grounds. To what extent do you feel they are actually about security, and to what extent do you feel they would be justified even if they were?

There isn’t a scratch of evidence that the occupation has anything to do with security. It’s already widely admitted (Shlomo Ben-Ami, Zeev Maoz, even Dennis Ross) that keeping the Jordan Valley for security reasons is a myth. And the wall could be built on Israel’s border and provide the same security (even more) to Israeli citizens. It’s a land-grab disguised in the language of security. If patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels (Johnson), then security is the last refuge of scoundrel states.

It seems to me that if the Israeli leadership’s underlying objective is to maintain (and possibly expand) the occupation permanently, it would make sense for Israel to welcome a Hamas government, since such a government gives Israel an excuse to avoid negotiating. Instead, it appears that Israel has worked consistently to engineer the toppling of Hamas ever since it was elected. How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

Israel thinks it has a bantustan leadership in place with which it can negotiate a final settlement (Abbas-Dahlan). In fact, that was the purpose of Oslo, and contrary to popular opinion, Oslo was almost a complete success. They got the Palestinian “leadership” they were grooming, but Hamas spoiled it for them.

Do you feel the Geneva Accord offers a good basis for a final settlement?

It’s something, but the fundamental basis of any settlement must be UN Resolution 242 and subsequent UN resolutions calling for full Israeli withdrawal, the dismantling of the settlements and a resolution of the refugee question based on 194.

What do you make of the Israeli government’s apparent sudden engagement with the Saudi peace plan? It seems odd, seeing as they’ve virtually ignored it for years.

It’s another diversion.  They can’t very well say they reject it (they do want peace, you know, and it’s the Arabs who are the problem), so they focus on the elements (like the refugees) bound to elicit a rejection.

Prof. Ilan Pappe advocates a boycott of and perhaps sanctions on Israel to pressure it to change its behaviour. Do you agree that this is the best way to force it to respect the law?

I have no opinion on this subject.

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  • JustOneMan

    Gee…the Jews worst enemy…self hating Jews…


  • Wow, what a stupid thing to say.

  • JustOneMan

    Mr. STERN WEINER…(lol)

    Thanks for proving my point!

    Jew hating Jews are a bigger problem than the Radical Muslims,,,


  • “Jew hating Jews are a bigger problem than the Radical Muslims…”

    Wow! Who woulda thought? Jamie, JOM has got you (and Normie Finkelstein, Ilan Pape, Noam Chomsky, George Soros) nailed on the head. Or should I say nailed in the ass.

    Wow! Who woulda thought?!!


  • JustOneMan

    Finkelstein SUCKS!

    Only months after Sept. 11, 2001, Finkelstein asserted his support of terrorism. In a 2001 interview, Finkelstein exclaimed, “Frankly, part of me says—even though everything since Sept. 11 has been a nightmare—’You know what, we deserve the problem on our hands because some things [Osama] bin Laden says are true.'”

    This guy is a FUCKING ASSHOLE..why do you worship him?


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “This guy is a FUCKING ASSHOLE..why do you worship him?

    JOM, the chief feature of self-hating Jews is that they are always trying to talk themselves out of a beating. And they talk and talk and talk and talk. It’s like reading Ha’aretz. And it is sickening. Jamie, as we both agree, is a self hating Jew. Do you have the patience to read seven paragraphs of justification? Or maybe Jamie will just tell you to re-read his article – you know, the “if you don’t believe me, ask me again” routine…

    JOM, you are making sense. What happened? Do you need an Acamol (Israeli equivalent of Tylenol)?

  • Ruvy, you really are pathetic. You’ve already retracted and apologised to me before for calling me a “self-hating Jew”, and now you’re at it again. It’s ridiculous.

    More generally, anyone who is so absurd as to feel pleased about themselves after responding to an interview with a promininent I/P scholar by posting crap about “self-hating Jews” deserves to be pitied, and not much else.

  • JustOneMan

    Finkelstein is no more a scholar than Adam Ashe or Marthe!


  • Zedd

    I am always baffled why the consideration of the Palestinian plight is somehow morphed into a hatred of Jews.

    I see this disconnect in logic or reason to be the fundamental problem with seeing the issue clearly. In Israel there are many Jews who want this issue resolved and are angered about the manner in which the Israeli government has dealt with the Palestinian issue.

    Confusing a political situation with a religious identity is HIGHLY problematic.

    Ones Jewness is supposed to have an internal impact (correct me if I am wrong Ruvy). The purpose is not to have something to claim, like a club affiliation, it is supposed to affect the individual and how he relates with the world around him. I sense that many on these boards view Jewness as a club or a gang of sorts that one is born into. The effect of Judaism on the spirit, is hardly ever a consideration, as insults are hurled and EXTREME improperly considered ideas are thrown around.

    Supporting the Israeli state has NOTHING to do with supporting the laws of Moses. Supporting the actions of Jews has NOTHING to do with the religion.

    What you “pro-Jewish” contributors on this blog are doing is supporting the club of people like yourselves, you are not supporting Judaism. You are practising prejudice and selfish agendas and not your Jewness.

    Its time for people like yourselves to face the fact that your current policies are not part of the Torah, that what happened in the 40’s is not in any way related to the Bible. It has more to do with selfishness and a distorted idea by frightened and paranoid people of self preservation.

    Lets stop hijacking Moses and the great prophets to justify our current foibles. They would be disgusted!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    “It’s time for people like yourselves to face the fact that your current policies are not part of the Torah, that what happened in the 40’s is not in any way related to the Bible. It has more to do with selfishness and a distorted idea by frightened and paranoid people of self preservation.

    Lets stop hijacking Moses and the great prophets to justify our current foibles. They would be disgusted!”

    Zedd, the Torah and Prophecy applies very much to this situation.

    This was originally on a different article, but it applies here as well…


    Thank you. It was interesting indeed. I found a couple of interesting books that I looked at. I’ll relate what I found in one of them to you, as it has to do with this article indirectly, and as you can understand some of what was foreseen, based on your own people’s history of genocidal suffering at the hands of European settlers in the United States.

    In a book about the great Jewish scholar and rabbi, the Chafetz Chaim (R’ Yisrael Meir Kagan, z”l), R’ Moses M. Yoshor, the author, talks of his prophetic insight. After WWI most people wanted to believe that the world had been made “safe for democracy.” From his home in Radin, Poland, the Chafetz Chaim (a title of honor for R’ Kagan) foresaw a “final catastrophe, a holocaust that would occur after several decades.” He termed the peace of Versailles “the preface to the next war, which in its cruelty will be more dreadful than anything we have seen till now.”

    In the month of Nisan 5690 (April 1930), in the middle of a discourse he was giving about “the birth pangs” (severe tribulations) that must precede the advent of the messiah, he stopped, groaned deeply and, after a few moments of reflection, said, “A stormwind is coming. A dreadful holocaust is approaching; and in comparison with the conflict ahead of us, the world war we experienced a short while ago will be considered a plaything. You know nothing of it, but I – I see what will happen ten years from now.”

    This stormwind that the Chafetz Chaim foresaw was the murder of the vast majority of Europe’s Jews in a terrible war that killed far more than the 55 million who died in World War I.

    The chilling thing about all this is that it had been foretold in prophecy – just as I believe this coming war in the Middle East and elsewhere has been foretold in prophecy.

    The Chafetz Chaim quoted Amos 9:9: “and I shall shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve.” Only after this, does Amos predict the restored sovereignty of the people of Israel – “On that day I will raise the sukkah (booth, indicating royal house) of David that is fallen there…” [Amos9:11]

    Please note, Marthe, that Amos talks about the restored royal house of David, not this pathetic joke of a state we have now. G-d’s “day” is a little longer than yours or mine.

    At the end of the chapter, R’ Yoshor relates the story of the head of a yeshiva in Poland consulting with the Chafetz Chaim about his predictions three years later after Hitler had become reichskanzler in Germany. The head of the yeshiva asked the Chafetz Chaim if Hitler would succeed in eliminating the Jewish people. The Chafetz Chaim said, “we have a clear explicit statement in our Scripture: ‘If Esav (Esau) comes to the one camp and strikes it down, the other will escape.'” [B’reshit/Genesis 32:9] From this, the yeshiva head understood that not all the Jews would be killed off. Asking further, he inquired “If heaven forbid, this dire enemy of ours succeeds in exterminating the Jews of Europe – the largest part, in numbers and importance, of world Jewry – where will the other camp be that will escape?” The Chafetz Chaim answered, “This too is told us explicitly – in the words of a prophet: ‘But on Mt. Zion, there shall be those that escape, at it shall be holy.'” [Ovadia 1:17]

    Jamie’s interview was a fool talking to another fool about something neither of them understand.

    I’ll get back to this later after dinner…

    Can’t afford to get the wife angry.

  • Oh God – why does the discussion (if it can be called that) always have to turn to religious bullshit? For once, just once, can’t we focus on the facts? The evidence? The reality? Not what some make-believe mountain God didn’t say thousands of years ago. That really would be swell.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Oh God – why does the discussion (if it can be called that) always have to turn to religious bullshit?”

    Because, Jamie, IT IS FUCKIN’ RELEVANT!!! WHAT THE CHAFETZ CHAIM SAID IN 1930 WAS PROPHECY! Millions of your people, not to mention my people were killed and there was clear prophecy as to what would happen. And, additionally, there was clear prophecy that the remnant would be here. We see lots of Jews in America and Britain – Jews like you and Finkelstein who haven’t got a clue. They are assimilating into foreign cultures and being lost to our people. But there is a remnant HERE that escaped, as the Chafetz Chaim foretold. YOU are no longer among that remnant – neither is Finkelstein.

    If you are too stupid to see that, it is not my problem. If idiots like Norman Finkelstein are too stupid to see that, it is not my problem. As I said, this interview was by a fool of a fool. I stand by my words.

    And now to return to the points I wanted to make before dinner. The specific reasons why I am so convinced of the Truth of the Torah.

    In the Song of Witness (or Song of Moses) [Devarím/Deuteronomy 32:1-43], wherein G-d tells Moses to call heaven and earth as witnesses against the Children of Israel of what will happen if they disobey the commandments given at Horev, commonly known to Jews as Parshát Ha’azínu, we see what the future was to hold for the Children of Israel.

    One line is very recognizable to anyone who has studied the history of Eretz Yisrael for the last hundred years. It stands out like a sore thumb.

    “They provoked Me with a non-god, angered Me with their vanities; so shall I provoke them with a non-people, with a vile nation shall I anger them.” [Devarím/Deuteronomy 32:21]

    So who is this “non-people?” One hundred years ago, there was no such thing as a Palestinian. There was no entity “Palestine.” There were the Turkish provinces here that were called south Syria by the locals, inhabited by Arabs, Cherkessim, Druze and Jews. Christians, retaining their heritage from the Roman savages, called this place “Palestine”, the name the Romans gave this country to insult the Judaeans whom they systematically persecuted and slaughtered for 600 years.

    What would you call a people that beheads innocents and makes videos of the execution? What would you call a people that dances in the street and hands out candy when innocents are blown up at restaurants, weddings, schools, seders; when riding buses, when picking up pencils from the ground? What would you call a people that tears apart, bone from bone, children who play in a cave when skipping from school?

    Vile is a polite term. So we have in the Palestinians a non-people who are vile.

    When I saw this line in Parshát Ha’azínu the very first time I read it, I realized that what I was reading was not the angry rantings of a man who was going to die but prophecy. I have in my own lifetime seen how the “Arab refugees” were transmogrified into “Palestinians” by propagandists and how even the Israeli government had bought into the bullshit being sold.

    The evidence in is front of our eyes, for those of us who are willing to see it. And for those who refuse to see, like Jamie; and the writers on this site who curse G-d and insist He does not exist – they will continue to be blind to the truth until it stabs them in the stomach and screams “Allahu Akbar!” When their blood drips from them on the ground, only then will they comprehend what they have been told – maybe.

  • Zedd


    There is a point where one has to take personal responsibility for his own thoughts and attitudes, let alone, actions. Viewing your neighbors (your brothers) as individuals is the ONLY way that you will be in the right. To continue to clump an entire group of individuals into one is a sin because it is wrong and you know that. In the same way that Jews are different and hold different views, so are Palestinians.

    At some point, the madness will end. The question is will you be among the fools of the past or will you be brave enough to stand with truth and reason. In this situation, it is far far more difficult to support reason. It is far easier to go with the crowd and do/say what is en vogue. Time will end this foolishness. Which side will your children’s children say you were on. The side of hatred and stubbornness or the side of good and prosperity for their sake?

    All of the madness of Hebrews through time eventually ends and God makes an example of their wanderings. This too will end. What matters is YOU.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    The following essay is long, but it establishes clearly the concept in Judaism that there is no sin without punishment and no punishment without sin – the only way to avoid punishment for sin is to repent, admit the sin and attempt restitution. There was a terrible sin that provoked the holocaust, one foreseen in prophecy, that Rabbi Kahane examines below.

    Similarly, there has been a terrible sin, also foreseen in prophecy, that has provoked the rise of a “non-people,” the “Palestinians,” to cause us to suffer, and the inability of Israeli authorities to appropriately deal with this non-people. That sin is the denial of G-d by the “Jewish” authorities of the State of Israel. And there has not only been no repentance by these “authorities,” there has been further sin.

    Examining the record of Arab terror in this country stretching all the way back to the massacres of the Temaním in Ir David, south of the Jerusalem city walls, to the massacres of Jews in Hevron in 1929, we see the nature of this people. Not only do they persist in killing innocents, they take joy in the murders they perpetrate!

    EVIDENCE for the one willing to look the facts in the face – conveniently ignored by the author of this article and the idiot he interviewed for his article.

    Read the words of a great man and learn from them, as I have.


    These excerpts were taken from an article written by Rabbi Meir Kahane, ZTUQ”L, HI”D (may he be remembered for his goodness, may he be a blessing in his holiness, and may his blood be avenged by G-d) published in Kahane magazine, Nov. 1985

    What is the fundamental issue of the Holocaust that we avoid speaking about and that, when mentioned, is dismissed with a curt and swift non sequitur?

    Why, surely it is the issue that, unless raised and discussed and answered, will guarantee yet another and another national catastrophe. Surely it is an issue that goes to the very nature of the Jewish People, its meaning and role in life, its direction and fate.

    What is the fundamental issue that must be met and grappled with?

    Why surely the one that asks the question: Where was God? How could He have permitted it?

    Our failure to grapple with this issue (instead we corrupt our souls by the terrible reply: It is a question no one can answer) has caused us to be silent accomplices in the worst of all Jewish sins and crimes – Hiruf v’giduf, blasphemy against the Lord; open insult and attack on His Name – Hillul Hashem (cursing G-d).

    How dare we sit by quietly while Jewish ignoramuses and blasphemers speak of the “death of God”, and His Name is dragged through the mud of a theology and philosophy of heresy?

    How dare we allow Him to be blasphemed and our children to be turned down the path of apostasy and atheism because our reply to the attacks of the blasphemers is: “No one can answer the question!”

    Of course there is an answer! It is a Jewish answer. But, of course, it is the kind of answer that the irreligious Jews, the secularists, the impossible Reformers and Conservatives simply cannot cope with.

    It is an answer that can only come from a Jew who believes fully and completely and it is the answer that can only enter the mind and soul of a Jew who believes fully and completely.

    And since the non-Orthodox Jew is essentially an atheist (though lacking the courage to admit it), the answer to the Holocaust is simply impossible for him to accept.

    And as for the Orthodox Jew, in such great measure, he is responsible for laying the groundwork for the inability of Jews to understand or accept the Jewish answer to the Holocaust. Let me explain and you, dear reader, study the words carefully, They will pain you, but they can also save you.

    The reason for the Holocaust, the Jewish reason and answer, is the one that rises out of the fundamental of fundamentals of Torah. What happens to the Jewish People is dependent on their actions and they way they live their lives.

    The Jewish People is a Chosen people; chosen for a mission it cannot avoid or escape. At Sinai, the covenant bound us to a life of truth or falsehood, of life or death. “See, I have set before you this day, life and good, and death and evil… And if thy heart turns away and you will not hear… I tell you this day that you will surely perish… I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that both your and your seed may live. [Devarim/Deuteronomy 30:15,17,18,19 selections therein]

    The clear, direct mission and warning to the Jewish people. The open message of reward and punishment. If the Jew will obey the Torah in all its ways, he will have life, glorious and majestic. If not, he will have death, terrible and

    Of course we can answer it; but the irreligious Jew, the one who does not accept the Divinity of Torah, refuses to accept an answer that lays the blame upon him, upon the Jew who – knowing of the warning – ignored it and disdained it.

    No, since it is impossible to accept the relationship between Jewish suffering and failure to obey the Law, one must blame God. One must create the image of Jewish people in Europe that was saintly and pious and observant, and thus one must ask how the modern God, a beaming Santa Claus who would never take serious our desecration of mitzvot (commandments), could do such a thing. And, of course, using that as a premise, “there is no God…”

    And the Orthodox Jew joins in. He creates a picture of European Jewry that must lead to agonized and perplexed questioning of God. He creates a picture of saintly men that must lead to a vision of a God that is a cruel God who punishes a people who, for the most part, were religious and observant and if so, how could He do such a thing unless He does not exist or “there is no answer…”

    The picture that is handed down to the American Orthodox youth, of the yeshivas of an East European Jewry that was pious and traditional and observant is one that must be destroyed because it is false.

    It is an image that the yeshiva world gave us in its desire to negate the present material western one. But by their falsely idealizing Man, they have laid the groundwork for the desecration of God.

    By painting the East European Jew as a saint, they designed a God of cruelty and irrationality. And that most terrible of sins must be ended: We must save God and sanctify His Name by telling the truth about European Jewry in the years preceding the Holocaust. Then and only then will we be able to tell our children and all Jews the truth of the Holocaust.

    The false idealizing of the Jewry of Eastern Europe is worse than foolishness. In the words of Kohelet (Ecclesiastes), “Say not: ‘How was it that the former days were better than these?’ For it is not out of wisdom that you inquire concerning this.” [Kohelet/Ecclesiastes 7:10] Then and only then can we save God from blasphemy and ourselves from future horrors. Then and only then can we honestly and truly say: “All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep His covenant and His testimonies.” [Tehillim/Psalms 25:10]

    Of course we know the real truth of the situation and from that comes the answer, if we wish to be honest. Then and only then can we reply to the wicked and the honestly confused both – honestly. For in the words of Tehillim: “The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him, and His covenant to make them know it” [Tehilllim/Psalms 25:14] and Mishlei/Proverbs: “Men of evil will not understand justice but those who seek the Lord will understand everything.” [Mishlei/Proverbs 28:5]

    Yes, as the nineteenth century passed into its third quarter, the Jew of Russia and Poland was, indeed, observant. But what else could he be?

    The overwhelming number of Jews lived in a Pale of Settlement that restricted them to the shtetl, the village, where they were isolated from the gentile world, barred from participating in anything else except the society of the shtetl. And that society was religious in toto.

    What Jew, even if he wanted to, was prepared to rebel against the society that laid down the religious rules of life?

    Who was prepared to accept the ostracism that would be his inevitable punishment if the dared to throw off the halacha that was more than religion in the shtetl, but the entire social fabric of the life of the Jew?

    And so, of course, the Jew was “religious”. He had no other choice.

    But once that choice arrived, look at what happened! And in such a short span of time! The Enlightenment that began to arrive in Eastern Europe in the last third of the nineteenth century swept away, in a relatively few years, a society and structure that had been built up for centuries. The great Torah centers spawned, overnight, a rebellion and revolution that uncovered the reality of Jewish “religiosity”.

    The same Vilna that had become a byword for piety and Torah learning, the home of the Gaon, the “Jerusalem of Lithuania,” now gave birth to’ the Jewish labor movement, the Bund, a bitterly anti-religious and anti-nationalistic group that saw Jews, who just yesterday were “religious”, flocking to its ranks to spout atheistic socialism.

    The Poland and Russia and Lithuania and Galicia, the areas of the Va’ad Arba Ha’aratzot (Council of the “Four Lands” of the 17th Century Kingdom of Poland), the places that had given us the Rama and the Shach and Chassidism and the great yeshivas, overnight gave birth to Jewish communism and socialism and secular Zionism and assimilation. The door was barely opened to enlightenment and emancipation and the Jew rushed to be a Universalist and to throw away Judaism.

    This was “religion”. This was a “pious, saintly, committed Jewish community” that was cruel and unjustly allowed to be slaughtered by God? Hardly. The Jews who, arriving in America from centuries of “religion” and who threw away their tefillin (phylacteries) and their Shabbat at the first opportunity, symbolized so many other Jews who remained behind. It was not “religion” that had marked them but a social system of ritual that was observed by most only because the outside gentile world refused to allow them entry to it, and there to throw off the yoke of heaven.

    The moment the barriers dropped, the Jew rebelled. This was the reality, and the fault dear Jew, lies not in our God but in ourselves.

    And there was of course, more. There was the terrible class struggle within East European Jewry.

    There was the terrible oppression of Jewish workers and proletariat by the wealthy Jews, the parnessim, the communal leaders.

    Not for nothing did the Bund and communism succeed so easily in attracting poor Jewish workers to their ranks.

    The low wages and horrible working conditions in the factories owned by Jews are epitomized in the classic story told in the name of the saintly Rabbi Levi Yitzchak of Berdichev who once visited a matzah bakery on the eve of Passover.

    There, he saw the terrible conditions from dawn to dusk. “Dear God”, he said, lifting his eyes unto heaven. “What liars are the gentiles! They accuse us of using gentile blood in our matzah. It is not true. We use Jewish blood…”

    And too few know of the black chapter of the Hatufim, the kidnapped Jewish children of Czarist Russia. When the Czar decreed that Jewish children be drafted as “Cantonists” in the army for 25 years, the rabbis declared that the quota imposed on each community be filled by casting lots to see which child would be drafted.

    Tragically, the wealthy communal leaders would hire gentiles to kidnap the poor Jewish children, lock them in the synagogue and keep them to be turned over to be Czarists.

    The lack of Ahavat Yisrael, love of Jews, cried out to the Heavens! Was this “religion”? Was this a saintly Jewish community that was cruelly and unjustly slaughtered by God? Hardly. The fault lies not in our God, but in ourselves.

    And this lack of unity and love was epitomized, too, in the incredible number of machlokes, of bitter arguments and splits within the Jewish community, a sinat chinam, a needless hatred that split communities and families into warring camps of enemies.

    What we have seen in the disgusting attacks of hatred between Satmar and Belz or Satmar and Lubavitch is only a small portion of the bitter hatred between misnagdím (religious Jews who disagreed with Hassidism) and Hassidim and between Hassidic groups themselves, in Europe.

    The bitter divisions between Jews was told to me as a child by my father, of blessed memory, who described to me the bitter split between the Sanz and Rizhin, a hatred that reached its climax with Hassidim going to the Western Wall to put the Sanzer Rebbe, the great Divrei Chayim, into herem (a term similar to excommunication). And at a Shabbat seuda shlishit (third Sabbath meal, eaten shortly before the prayers ending the Sabbath), a Hassid attempted to stab the Divrei Chayim…

    Families were broken up because of disputes. Needless hatred ran through East European Jewry as a thread, and the classic example of the Munkatcher Rebbe declaring, concerning the Pressburger Yeshiva founded by the Chasam Sofer: V’hivdilanu min ha’toim – “and He has separated us from those who err,” even as the Pressburger Yeshiva refused entry to any baHur (student) who was a member of the

    And this terrible, terrible hatred was long ago, set up by the Rabbis as an unpardonable sin with a terrible, terribly clear and precise warning:

    “How severe is maHloket, division and split! The Court of Heaven does not punish until one is over the age of 20 and the court on earth from the age of 13, but in the dispute of Korach, children of one day were burned and swallowed up by the earth…” (Tanchuma, Korach 3) And the Rabbis in Shabbat (33b): “When there are righteous in the generation, the righteous are caught for the sins of the generation. When there are no righteous, then little children are caught for the sins of the generation (this is the explanation for the million and a half Jewish children murdered by the Nazis in the death camps). Let each of us think long and carefully about this. And let us search our souls.

    And let us remember, on top of all the sins and the reality of Jewish crimes, the refusal to grasp the Land of Israel to our bosom. “And they despised the desirable land,” is the Biblical condemnation of the generation of the desert and its great scholars and leaders who preferred to return to Egypt rather than go to the Land of Israel.

    Their actions led to the night of “weeping for generations,” Tisha B’Av. What shall we say about the rejection of Eretz Yisrael in the decades preceding the Holocaust by so many great religious leaders in Europe? That, too, must be added to the reality of East European Jewry.

    It is time to put an end to the nonsense of “we cannot know the reasons”. That answer guarantees the turning away of Jewish youth.

    It is time to bury the myth of East European Jewry that was pious and saintly. That insures the creation of a Jewish God who is senselessly cruel.

    It is time to put an end to the indictment of God, to hiruf v’giduf, blasphemy against the Lord.

    A Jewish People that clings to the Law, truly and completely, will be saved from Holocausts.

    And one which rejects it and which turns it into a ritualistic sociological fraud will suffer for it.

    And until we learn this, that which was will, God forbid, be again.

    But do not blame God. He remains the One whose duty compels us “to declare that the Lord is just, He is my rock and there is no unrighteousness in Him.” [Tehillim/Psalms 92:15]

  • Ruvy, please back off with the pompous religious fervour. You have absolutely no idea if what you believe is true or not. You just desperately hope it is so as not to have to consider the possibility that you have invested so much of your, and your family’s, future in a delusion.

    Oh, you can’t fix bad html coding in a subsequent comment either, I or another editor have to do it manually. Please exercise greater care with both the code and the codex you choose to deploy.


  • Great, Ruvy. That’s so enlightening. I’m still waiting, perhaps in vain, for anyone to talk about reality, about the actual issues that were touched upon (albeit v. briefly) in the interview above. I was not hoping for a Bible lesson.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Ruvy, please back off with the pompous religious fervour.”

    Chris, I wouldn’t expect you to say anything other than what you have said – unfortunately. We have discussed this before, and the blunt truth is that if you were confronted with real evidence of the truth of the Bible, you would dismiss it. You always have in the past.

    There are three kinds of proof that one can offer for the truth of the Torah. One is to be found in inscriptions on rocks; a second is to be found in artifacts found at digs; the third, the one dealt with here, is demonstrating that what was forewarned by shepherds with visions – prophecy – has or is occurring as we speak now.

    The essay above – dismissed by you as “pompous religious fervor” – falls in the third category. My comments prior to this to answer Zedd (I won’t waste time on Jamie – he’ll have to see his own way home) also fall in this category.

    Now, since you can fix the error I made in comment #14, if you would be kind enough to fix it, I’d appreciate it immensely…

  • Ruvy, you really need to pull your head out of the mystical nonsense it’s immersed in.

    You can’t possibly KNOW that the bible or any other so called “holy” book is the work of a god. You simply take it on faith.

    Whilst it may be true that I can’t know for sure it’s all total BS, there is zero evidence to support your faithist conjecture and posturing. Given the choice, I’ll take the evidence as it stands and continue working for good honest reality based upon the collective efforts of my species.

    None of the “proof” you offer above makes any kind of sense at all – and this is the true corrupting influence of religion; it requires a peculiar warping or abandonment of reason to be taken on board. To me, that is a true work of evil and it makes religion a real enemy of humanity and all we hold in common.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    As I said in comment #17, I wouldn’t expect you to say anything other than what you have said – unfortunately. We have discussed this before, and the blunt truth is that if you were confronted with real evidence of the truth of the Bible, you would dismiss it. You always have in the past. You do so here.

    No surprises, my virtual friend. But thank you for fixing my error in using HTML codes. I’ll endeavour to use more care in future…

  • Ruvy, I don’t care what the truth is one way or another. I’m quite prepared to believe anything at all BUT I’m not prepared to believe it just cos a bunch of mystical types say so.

    I’m actually deeply offended that you say I would dismiss “real evidence of the truth of the bible” for that is a craven lie that I’ve directly rebutted to you before. Either you know that or you’re choosing to ignore it.

    The fact that you claim I have done so, both before and here, is simply more evidence that you have a fixed mindset that is determined to ignore any inconvenient truth. Such spiritual and intellectual corruption serves only to demonstrate the bankrupt nature of your philosophy.

    Now, if this god of yours showed up, I’d be down the front in a heartbeat and be entirely happy to do so. Obviously, as “his” creation “he” would be delighted to see me. However my confidence is high that this will never happen, not in a million lifetimes.

    As to your html, judicious use of the preview button would help you fix any potential problems. I always use it when I have written more than appears in this tiny comments window. Clicks “Preview”.

  • JustOneMan

    Why do Jews hate Jews so much?


  • Chris,

    Let’s try this one more time.

    You cannot “prove” G-d. That is impossible. But proving G-d is not the issue here. The historicity – and therefore the truth – of the Torah is. You can find archaeological evidence of the existence of Abraham. This is referred to in the book “The Twelfth Planet”, by Zecharia Sitchen. In addition, there is evidence of the existence of “plagues” attacking Egypt including th4e crossing of the Sea of Reeds (written from an Egyptian point of view, which is far more important than something written from our point of view), corroborating evidence of which Pharaoh it was who Moses had to contend with, and Egyptian archaeological evidence referring to what I would identify as G-d – a “G-d with no name.”

    But this all costs. You need to pay Lightcatcher Books for the book, “The Riddle of the Exodus,” written by Jim Long.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Ruvy, please see a psychiatrist. Seriously. Your words are deluded and violent, and you need help. You have a mental disease that causes you to hate others, deny them their humanity and wish them dead.
    Your “explanations” are nonsense and make no sense to others. This sounds like a medical disorder, and I urge you to see a qualified mental health professional.

  • JustOneMan

    Will you Jews stop beating each other up!

  • Zedd


    What do you do with the notion of the Messiah?

    Does it not cause you to pause just a little to recognise the existence of THE most popular Jew better yet, the most popular being that has lived on this earth.

    What are you awaiting?

    Could it be possible that he has come and you missed it. Could it not be that if he is who he is that he would be inclusive of all humanity as apposed to just a small population. Could it not be that He would free one from laws and introduce a concept of personal responsibility (which eventually lead to our idea of democracy btw).

    Would it not be possible that He would show you how God relates to the rest of his creation other than just Jews. Wouldn’t a real God love and be concerned about all humanity, instead of just Jews.

    Is not the hanging on to Judaism a sort of arrogant refusal to acknowledge the love that God has for everyone equally; the refusal to relinquish a self absorbed view of the world, where gentiles are equal players?

    I mean If you are still waiting for the Messiah, would he be more impactful than Jesus Christ? In this day and age, would his massage even be received? What more are you looking for. Why reject Jesus? Whats wrong with seeing him as the Messiah?

  • Zedd


    I do agree with Christopher that religion is kooky. I choose to believe in God even though I know that it is nuts.

    There is no way that the Bible makes sense. Abraham was about to kill his son as a sacrifice to a God who owns the universe… was that good?… Its a little loony. Abraham sent his wife off to some other guy and told him that she was his sister because he was scared and she was fine…. would you do that? Jacob cheated his brother out of his inheritance… was that right and good? And God being all knowing just went along with it? He also used his first wife to get to her sister, then favored her children over his older children. What a jerk. That is horrible.

    Lots wife turning into sand… I don’t think so. Knowing the modern day Arabs and Jews and their tendency to exaggerate and dramatize everything she probably died in the dessert and was covered with sand.

    Anyway, the truth is it sounds crazy and kooky.
    None of that really makes sense no matter what you say.

    What matters is Gods revelation to you and how you affect the world in your time here.

  • Ruvy: NOTHING is impossible, except possibly time travel.

    On a more serious note, even if there is archeological evidence that shows that certain past events recorded in the bible, koran or torah actually happened, that does not mean the laughable origin theories these books propound are also true. That would be entirely wishful thinking on your part.

    They wouldn’t be the only books to base a flight of fancy on some real historical event. C’mon man, let’s have a little intellectual and spiritual honesty here, not tragic wishful thinking and supposition.

    My perception is that we are alone in this universe (at least until faster than light transport happens, if it can) and we need to accept personal responsibility for our actions during the brief time we’re in it.

    That needs a certain maturity and personal growth, which the childish nannying of gods and religion is clearly designed to inhibit. That’s also why and how you can justify to yourself what you’re doing in Israel. You absolve yourself of any personal responsbility for your actions by saying it is the hand of god that guides you.

    It follows therefore that religion is the enemy of the common humanity that we all share, my brother. Islam isn’t your enemy, your own corrupt beliefs are. The irony is only outweighed by the tragic futility…

  • STM

    Chris says: “Ruvy: NOTHING is impossible, except possibly time travel.”

    That’s not quite right Chris … even time travel is possible. As you know, it is now almost 2am on Easter Sunday in Australia, but in America it’s still Saturday (mid-morning, is it guys?).

    Which means, dear boy, I am actually from a spot in the future on the time/space continuum … yes, Rosey, the spinning of the Earth introduces us even if it’s ever so slightly to the notion of time travel.

    This is also possibly gives us (mostly) an unfair advantage at cricket and rugby/RL (sorry, mate, couldn’t help myself).

  • I’m just glad you’re a journalist not a scientist, Stan. Remind me to give you a physics refresher over a pint sometime.

  • STM

    Sounds pretty good though, eh? Gets those bloody Yanks thinking. A pint would be nice right now mate, I must say. One of those nice English ones off the wood in a pub in front of a fire on a cold winter’s night where you think you can have another three because they’re going down so nicely, and then suddenly you go down so nicely (whilst speaking swahili) …

  • Clavos

    Stan, I am surprised you admit this:

    This is also possibly gives us (mostly) an unfair advantage at cricket and rugby/RL (sorry, mate, couldn’t help myself).

    I would have thought that you would claim inherent Aussie superiority to a pom (especially one smart enough to have moved to a better climate).

  • troll

    clearly dangerous experiments should be carried out in Australia…thus if things were to go sour the rest of us would have time to reconsider

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Will you Jews stop beating each other up!”


    Jamie, the other Jew that appears to be making comments, the author of this idiotic interview, has held his tongue. Two Christians and a militant atheist are the ones commenting, for the most part. The Catholic (at least that’s what Stan says he is) is good-naturedly discussing rugby, beer and how the internet makes time travel possible. The other Christian, Zedd (not sure of the denomination), admits her beliefs to be loony, but wants to know why I won’t join her in them. The militant atheist holds that believing in G-d allows one off the hook for responsibility for one’s actions. That is the Jew’s typical condemnation of Christianity, but Chris, not realizing that different faiths view accountability differently, paints me with the Christian’s abdication of responsibility for his own actions, and condemns me for it. Amusing, it all is.

    So all in all, it is a militant atheist and a Christian of unknown denomination attacking a Jew for his beliefs.

    Oh, I forgot somebody. Leslie Bohn, of unknown faith, wants me to see a psychiatrist because I see the world clearly, and he cannot stand the unpalatable truths I lay out. Typical behavior of a Bolshevik, to want to stick a man who tells the truth in a mental institution…

  • Clavos


    Well put, Ruvy.

  • S.T.M

    Clav: Chris knows the truth … I just can’t gloat forever without sounding boorish. However, yes, he was smart enough to head for warmer climes and he also is an aficionado of the great game of rugby league, which means he’s a bit of a cut above the average pom in my book. Just, mind …

  • S.T.M

    “clearly dangerous experiments should be carried out in Australia”

    Clearly, dangerous experiments have ALREADY been carried out in Australia. Firstly, he Poms sent all the party people to the best place, and look what happened.

    Then who knows what happened after that ….

  • Ruvy, your #33 is just total psychobabble fueled by arrogance and conceit. You ought to be ashamed. Not much chance of that as you are in the grip of such a profound religious fever.

    For the record, I’m not at all a militant atheist, indeed, I’m not an atheist at all. The very word, as I’ve said many times, is a faithist term to try and explain away normality and/or sanity. The word ought not to exist, just as there is no word for people who don’t believe in astrology.

    I don’t give a flying fuck how faithists view accountability, they are all deluded and ultimately not to be trusted with anything of great import, because they’ll always act in accordance with their affliction, rather than doing the right thing.

    You aren’t laying out the truth of anything, you’re simply displaying the symptomology of your disease.

    STM: Union, mate, not League…

  • Wo, wo, wo, WO! Stan?

    You can be critical of Israel and not be anti-Semitic. It’s a democracy after all.

    This guy, Finkelstein. This dude is scary.

    Good interview.

  • Chris,

    “I don’t give a flying fuck how faithists view accountability, they are all deluded and ultimately not to be trusted with anything of great import, because they’ll always act in accordance with their affliction, rather than doing the right thing.”

    Sorry, mate. You haven’t outgrown needing the Bible as a spiritual guide to tell you right from wrong. Your primary delusion, such as it is, is thinking you have. That disease afflicts Spain and the rest of Europe, which is why the Moslems are beginning to overrun you all and succeeding. The same disease afflicts much of the United States, but not to the same degree.

    In the mental hospital in Giv’at Sha’ul in north Jerusalem there is an “I don’t give a flying fuck” ward for those who truly don’t. It’s just down the hall from the “Napoleon and messiah” ward, if my sources tell me correctly. I’ll reserve a spot for you if you’d like. We can discuss rugby (you can teach me the finer points of the game) while you sip on a pint, and while I drink a latté…

    I’ll reserve a spot for Leslie Bohn also if he desires and visit the two of you on Sunday afternoons between police shifts.

  • Alessandro,

    Read the comments closely here. The person who is most critical of the State of Israel is – me.

  • Chris,

    I just checked my contract with my health insurance provider, and they won’t cover your stay at Giv’at Sha’ul. Sorry.

    Let’s take a different approach. Elsewhere, you said, “I wish my role “(as comments editor) wasn’t necessary, but then I also wish that people could abandon the childish insecurity that makes them lash out at each other in fear and anger.

    Here you say, “I don’t give a flying fuck how faithists view accountability, they are all deluded and ultimately not to be trusted with anything of great import, because they’ll always act in accordance with their affliction, rather than doing the right thing.

    You aren’t laying out the truth of anything, you’re simply displaying the symptomology of your disease.”

    That’s not exactly lashing out in “anger” or “fear.” Let’s try dismissive contempt. That is why you’ve not outgrown the Bible (or at least the Seven Commandments of Noah) as a guide for ethical behavior, and why your comments have the tone that reeks of anger, as well as dismissive contempt…

  • Ruvy, you’re the one that needs some aged tome to tell you what to think and do.

    My comments are indeed dismissive of the presumption and arrogance you display, but that’s okay, I know you simply can’t help yourself, like all people afflicted with the faithist delusion.

    It’s not contempt though, pity would be more apt; pity for the fixed nature of your illness and the hatred and contempt it makes you display for others. Of course, that’s just the disease trying to protect itself, like the malign parasitic mental illness it is.

  • “Read the comments closely here. The person who is most critical of the State of Israel is – me.”

    Yeh, but whereas most sane people criticise it for acting too whacko and crazy, you criticise it for not being crazy and whacko enough.

  • Chris,

    I do not need an aged tome to tell me what to do or what to think. Neither do you. But I have enough intelligence to recognize that I have not outgrown the need for that aged tome as a guide to moral behavior. And neither have you. Each additional comment you pile on laying contempt of my views in this comment thread gives proof to the other readers of this magazine of the truth of that assertion.

    All you need do is say, “I disagree with you, Ruvy.” Everything else you have said here has demeaned your own standing as a reasonable person holding to a point of view. All the accusations, name calling and the rest may sound good in a pub over a few pints, but do not look good on the virtual “paper” used here.

    What really bothers you is that I also use that aged tome as a guide to the future. That one can do so reliably has been the big discovery of my middle years. It does not make me particularly smart. People far wiser than I have know this for centuries.

    But, it means that instead of being mired in the misleading stupidity that causes the Heathlander and people like Norman Finkelstein to hold the misguided (I’m being generous and polite here) views they do, I see a very different reality.

  • I don’t believe in morality, Ruvy, it’s just another aspect of the faithist deception. Ethical behaviour though, that’s a whole other story. Try it some time…

    If you think simply saying “I disagree with you, Ruvy” is an adequate response to the nonsense you’re writing, that’s just yet another illusion you’re piling on top of all the others that are infecting your brain.

    What really bothers me is exactly what I said it was. The fact that you feel the need to pretend it’s something else, as per the penultimate paragraph in your #44, is simply further evidence of the advanced stage of the disease that ails you.

    Were you a little more clear headed, you’d at the very least take my words at face value rather than desperately trying to re-write the script to conform with your infection.

    You don’t see reality at all, for reality would compell you to acknowledge that your views on this topic are delirious nonsense. The spirit of reality doesn’t compel you, alas.

    What you see is dogma corrupting your heart but you lack either the ability or the integrity to admit it. This is the very heart of darkness and I truly pity you as you mentally thrash around, babbling “I’m sane, I’m sane”, just like every other manic preacher. It would be comic if it weren’t so pathetically tragic.

    Again, what a waste of a good human life as the poison and hate of the lie consumes you. I could weep it’s so inutterably pointless and sad.

  • Clavos

    Christopher writes:

    I don’t believe in morality, Ruvy, it’s just another aspect of the faithist deception. Ethical behaviour though, that’s a whole other story.


    And yet, most people believe one can’t really separate the two. For example, the online Britannica Concise Encyclopedia employs the word “moral” liberally in this definition of “ethics”:


    Branch of philosophy concerned with the nature of ultimate value and the standards by which human actions can be judged right or wrong. The term is also applied to any system or theory of moral values or principles. Ethics is traditionally subdivided into normative ethics, metaethics, and applied ethics. Normative ethics seeks to establish norms or standards of conduct; a crucial question in this field is whether actions are to be judged right or wrong based on their consequences or based on their conformity to some moral rule, such as “Do not tell a lie.” Theories that adopt the former basis of judgment are called consequentialist (see consequentialism); those that adopt the latter are known as deontological (see deontological ethics). Metaethics is concerned with the nature of ethical judgments and theories. Since the beginning of the 20th century, much work in metaethics has focused on the logical and semantic aspects of moral language. Some major metaethical theories are naturalism (see naturalistic fallacy), intuitionism, emotivism, and prescriptivism. Applied ethics, as the name implies, consists of the application of normative ethical theories to practical moral problems (e.g., abortion). Among the major fields of applied ethics are bioethics, business ethics, legal ethics, and medical ethics.

    For more information on ethics, visit Britannica.com.

  • However, I think they are clearly different. Morals are derived from faithist principles whilst ethics are clearly not, to my way of thinking at least.

  • “Morals are derived from faithist principles whilst ethics are clearly not, to my way of thinking at least.”

    Why don’t you show proof of your assertion, Chris? Us insane religious people need to be shown the true path…

  • A Concerned Citizen


    You don’t see reality at all, for reality would compell you to acknowledge that your views on this topic are delirious nonsense

    You’ve used the word “arrogance” to describe Ruvy’s beliefs more than once in this thread. Isn’t this indicative of the same arrogance, just of an opposite opinion? You keep claiming Ruvy doesn’t see reality, but neither do you. The truth is that nobody knows. Ruvy doesn’t know if religion is true, you do not know if it is false.

    Besides that, trying to say that “atheist” doesn’t define you, or that it even acknowledges the question of God. . . is just plain stupid. Man defines himself in relation to society and — guess what — society believes in God. So when you’re called an “atheist”, you’ve earned that place because of your relative position to everyone else. Just deal with it.

  • A Concerned Citizen


    Multiple times you’ve accused Ruvy of being “arrogant” in his beliefs. You’re statements, such as “You don’t see reality at all, for reality would compell you to acknowledge that your views on this topic are delirious nonsense” suggest the same arrogance. The truth of the matter is that no one knows either way.

    Also, you’re disdain for the title “atheist” because it even acknowledges the question of God is ludicrous. A man defines himself in terms of the society he lives in. Society believes in God, so atheist is the right term for you. You’re just a speck in the ocean — society defines you, not the other way around.

    On a final note, whether you believe in God or not, the Bible does have some actual wisdom lodged between its pages. You’re arrogance may have blinded you to it, but it’s there. Look hard and with an open mind, maybe you’ll find it.

  • If you were paying attention, Concerned Citizen, you’d know that I’ve said on more than one occasion that I can’t prove my view. However, the evidence to support Ruvy’s view is precisely nil, which makes his perspective little more than empty fanaticism. The very absence of evidence is enough for me to feel a high level of confidence in my view.

    Furthermore, I’ve also said on frequently that I wish there is a god and if it deigns to turn up one day I’ll be down the front singing o happy day with the most pious and fervent believers.

    You’re so busy trying to argue with me that you’re paying as little attention to my words as the Ruvster himself. I said atheist is a faithist term designed to explain away people like me who don’t buy the story, to make the believers feel a little more comfortable in their delusion.

    Society doesn’t believe in anything at all, it’s made up of billions of people with wildly diverse views so that point too falls completely flat on its face.

    Fianlly, I’ve never said the bible doesn’t have any wisdom lodged in its pages. Your arrogance is blinding you so I’d suggest you spend a bit more time paying attention to what’s being said and a little less being myopic and making an ass of yourself with shabby thinking and try to open your own mind a little more.

  • Oh and Ruvy, it’s my opinion, based on an understanding of what the words mean. There is no “true path”, that’s just another faithist way of trying to explain the world that is simply inappropriate to our shared reality. There are many paths, but those based on childishly shallow interpretation are clearly dangerous red herrings that divide and imperil us all.

  • Zedd


    Feel free to ask questions about Christianity anytime you like.

    It’s quite clear that you don’t understand it.

    What I was referring to in my original post to you was YOUR religion (the old testament). I did not touch on the teachings of Christ at all.

    What Christianity says is EVERYONE is flawed and falls short of the perfection which is God. Your “good” deeds will not gain you favor with God because your deeds don’t show your heart. God only cares about your heart. You may quote a million passages of scriptures, or give all of your wealth to the poor but without real love, it is meaningless.

    Christianity is about the ultimate personal responsibility. The responsibility of one when no one is around.

    We are off topic but I thought I would clarify.

  • Zedd


    Ethic is actually philosophy of morals. Its just a study of morals.

    You may be referring to morays which are the beliefs that exists because of an unwritten social code of in any given civilization that govern conduct.

    However, when that code is broken there are consequences. The consequences and the the code it self are often originally attributed to some supernatural experience (e.g. a deity)

  • Clavos

    You may be referring to morays which are the beliefs that exists because of an unwritten social code of in any given civilization that govern conduct.

    Actually they’re salt water eels. What you’re referring to is mores.

  • Clavos,

    Mores – you mean that boring stuff in the Soc 101 classes that put me to sleep so regularly? Give me morays over mores anytime. At least you get a little action out the the morays instead of a long snooze to final exams….

  • Clavos

    Ever spear a moray, Ruvy, and have the sucker come swimming up the shaft of the spear at you?

    They are mean mothers.

  • They are mean mothers.


    You’re going to have me drooling over all the things I probably won’t get to do in life, like spearing morays. I’ll tell you one thing, though. If you don’t feed those sociology profs the porridge they want from you on finals, they can be very mean mothers…

  • Zedd


    That was a deliberate choice in spelling. Actually there are times when it is spelled m o r a y s.

    I chose to use that spelling because “mores” would be confusing and the link to “morals” could not be easily reached.

    However Clavos, I hope that you understood the SUBSTANCE behind the comment. I know that you get easily distracted but try to focus on the main idea.

  • Clavos

    Yeah, I know.

    The toughest teachers I had were at an English school in Mexico City called “Greengates,” (actually it had an “official” name that no one ever used, which I can no longer remember.)

    If you were stupid in those classes, you got rapped severely on the knuckles; talk about motivation! Heh. I still have the scars :>)

    More serious offenses merited a paddling on the behind from the headmistress in her office.

    Change of subject, Ruvy:

    I know you used to live in the Twin Cities. My sister lives there now, so I’m pretty up-to-date about what’s going on there. As you may be aware, they are becoming a center of Muslim activity; they elected Muslim Keith Ellison to Congress and now have a substantial colony of Somalis in the area.

    I know you’ve heard about the Somali cab drivers at the airport refusal to accept passengers carrying liquor, but had you also heard about the Somali cashiers at Target who are refusing to check out customers’ pork products?

    Interesting that such a vanilla place as Minnesota appears to be morphing into the focal point of US Muslim culture, eh?

  • Clavos

    Actually there are times when it is spelled m o r a y s

    No, dear, not with that meaning it’s not. Look it up.

    It’s an eel or a county in Scotland. That’s it.

    Using one of your favorite lines:

    Stop embarrassing yourself, Zedd.

  • Clavos,

    I didn’t know about the Somali cashiers at Target. What they are doing goes against civil law and the mores of the land, but it is nice to see that some Somalis have the courage to attempt to stand by their convictions. It would be nice to see them practice peace on their own turf in Somalia, but that is another subject altogether, one where my ignorance far outweighs anything of intelligence I could contribute.

    Actually, it is no surprise to see “vanilla” Minnesota turning into a hub of Moslem activity. The “guilty liberal” mentality that rules the governing elites there makes it much like Europe – which as I pointed out to friend Christopher, is succumbing to Moslem activism as well, activism of a much less benign nature.

    I suspect that the activism of the Somalis, added to the corroding influence of that CAIR has just gotten in Congressman Ellison, will move that state to far less benign Moslem activism in the near future. I fear that we are due for some very nasty surprises from there soon. Bloomington, MN is the home to the largest shopping mall in the United States. On a crowded day…

    I think you get the picture.

  • In ciomment #12 I quoted the Torah:

    “They provoked Me with a non-god, angered Me with their vanities; so shall I provoke them with a non-people, with a vile nation shall I anger them.” [D’varím/Deuteronomy 32:21]

    Now we see further evidence of what this means when translated into modern terms.

    These comments and the attached article come courtesy of Aryeh Zelasko.

    Once insanity become the means of deciding national issues, even the most obvious dangers can be ignored. It is a time honored practice to throw a dead horse or cow into you enemy’s water supply. This along with burning his crops and other minor annoyance tend to aid in destroying and reduce the amount of fighting needed to win a war.

    21:53 , 04.01.07 Doomsday Weapon? Gaza sewage nightmare Sewage disaster in Gaza may be harbinger of Palestinian ‘doomsday weapon’
    Martin Sherman

    The following excerpt was taken from a classified report by Israel’s Water Commission on the “Impact of the disengagement, summer 2005.”

    “…if the Palestinians go ahead with their plans to lay a sewage pipe that drains into the sea in the northern Gaza Strip, it will paralyze the largest desalination plant in Ashkelon and pollute the nearby beaches. Crippling the operation of the desalination plant by piping sewage into the sea from northern Gaza is intolerable for the national water system. Any attempt to lay a pipe that drains sewage into the sea and pollutes our coastline must be physically stopped.”

    The recent tragic incident in which the Bedouin settlement of Umm Naser in the Northern Gaza Strip was flooded by sewage when the wall of a nearby wastewater storage facility collapsed serves to underscore the myopic folly of the “disengagement” concept, and the impossible – but not impossible to predict -situations in which it places Israel, and will continue to do so in the future.

    Some kind of “sewage debacle” was virtually predestined to occur after Israel’s hasty and ill-considered evacuation of Gaza. Immediately after the withdrawal, veteran military commentator Zeev Schiff published an article entitled “From wastewater to war” (the Hebrew version bore the title “Worse than Qassam rockets”) where he spelled out the dire hydro-strategic dangers that would confront Israel if the question of Gaza’s sewage was not adequately addressed.

    The rest of this article can be found at the website link above…

  • More proof for my assertion in comment #12:

    “They provoked Me with a non-god, angered Me with their vanities; so shall I provoke them with a non-people, with a vile nation shall I anger them.” [D’varím/Deuteronomy 32:21]

    2 soldiers stabbed in Cave of Patriarchs; Stabber shot in leg

    By JPOST.COM STAFF (the Jerusalem Post Online)

    It is important to note that this stabbing took place in a cave that is both a synagogue and a mosque. We know that these Arabs have no respect for our religion; what kind of respect do they have for their own that they would kill in a mosque?

    A no-nation that is a vile people… By their own hands do they show themselves for what they truly are…

  • You may want to revisit the defintion of the word “proof” Ruvy. This falls a long way short. It is, however, entirely in keeping with the self-deceiving wish fulfillment you specialise in. Truly you are showing us what you are by your own hand…

  • Leslie Bohn

    One of the first casualties of the disease of faithism is logic. Check Ruvy’s reasoning:

    I do not need an aged tome to tell me what to do or what to think. Neither do you. But I have enough intelligence to recognize that I have not outgrown the need for that aged tome as a guide to moral behavior.

    He doesn’t need it, but he hasn’t outgrown the need for it. Which means, um, he needs it.

    It is sad, as Mr. Rose more eloquently says, that Ruvy and so many others like him, are so deluded that they literally cannot think straight.

    It is also scary, given the hatred and violence that emanates from Ruvy’s ominous “prophecy” posts, which are vile and crazy.

  • Zedd

    Clavos sed: If you were stupid in those classes, you got rapped severely on the knuckles; talk about motivation! Heh. I still have the scars :>)

    Did they also drop you on your head? Off course I’m joking as ussual.

    Seriously, that sounds like schools in SA. I started my first year there and I still have scares in my knuckles too. What horrible thing could a five year old do? If you forgot a word from the lengthy recitation of the day, you got beaten. One teacher used a ruler (the metal tipped side) to rap your knuckles with, on your writing hand. You would have swollen, purple knuckles for a week and you would be expected to write every day on your slate.

    Older kids had it worse. They used whips on them. The teacher would yell “let him/her fly” and they’d have 4 big boys lift you into the air….. You would be strapped seriously for the simplest infraction. In my Dad’s day, there was a teacher of his who had a tub filled with salt water and a leather strap soaking at all times. It would strip your skin and the salt would get into the wound….. fun stuff. But that was Apartheid. People were mad! Its amazing that people were still determined to study and learn.

    The determination is still there but sanity prevails. Now they are suffering from a backlash of excessive psychobabble.

  • Zedd

    Clavos sed: Stop embarrassing yourself, Zedd.

    I’m sorta flattered. That’s what I say to you all of the time.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Let’s look at comment #66 folks. The beknighted Leslie Bohn would tell me that my logic was faulty. I wrote, “I do not need an aged tome to tell me what to do or what to think. Neither do you. But I have enough intelligence to recognize that I have not outgrown the need for that aged tome as a guide to moral behavior.”

    The benighted Mr. Bohn cannot tell the difference between being told what to think and a guide to moral (or ethical) behavior. There is a world of difference between the one – a book that merely tells you what to do, and the other, a guide to the questions that arise when good sense and a clear understanding of the ethical imperatives are just not enough.

    But our beknighted Mr. Bohn misses the difference by a country mile. Why am I not surprised?

    Leslie – because you are such a nice guy, I’ll be glad to tutor you in English comprehension for a mere 50 shekels an hour. It’s a bargain rate offered only to the poor and truly needy (new immigrants are usually even poorer and more truly needy – they get the same deal for 40 shekels an hour). Whattya say, Les? – $12.15/hr is a bargain rate, really.

    Gimme a holler.

  • Ruvy, you offering to teach somebody comprehension would be like asking a politician to give lessons on integrity. Unlikely in the extreme. Until you can free your mind from the dogma that binds it – and we both know that’s something you’re incapable of.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. Ruvy:
    The book in question does indeed tell you what to do. (You might note the “Shalt not” parts for starters.)

    Maybe you should reread your original sentence and rethink the circular logic it employs rather than come up with some arcane distinction after the fact to try to make it seem like you meant something else.

    What sort of moral guide doesn’t tell you what to do or think? This is what a “guide” is, by definition. Merely is your word. I’d never apply it to a book as complex, rich, and contradictory as the Bible.

    “Beknighted” and benighted,

  • S.T.M

    Zedd asked (of Clavos): “Did they also drop you on your head? Off course I’m joking as ussual”

    Lol. What a gem … shattered the concrete Clav??

  • Clavos

    I’m half Swede; what do you think?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    Mr. Ruvy?

    Reading comprehension is applied when the text requires something more than mere obvious scanning.

    If, as an adult, you still need to be told, “you will not steal,” or “you will not lie,” you’re seriously in trouble. Generally, if you steal, you’ll have cops all over you like a bad fitting suit, complete with cuffs. Lying you may get away with – for a while. Lies have a nasty way of sneaking up on you when you are not looking. All of a sudden, “SNAP!” and you are ensnared, looking like a deer that is about to be roadkill.

    All that is rather obvious, and neither Chris Rose nor I need to be told not to lie or steal – or to be very careful if we do.

    All that is the easy stuff – for kindergarten kids, so to speak. Chris, for all of his militant atheism, is unlikely to steal, lie or commit murder.

    But there is more to the Torah than just elements of the Ten Commandments and elaboration of it. There are issues of manslaughter, damages, sexual behavior and it is not at all that clear oftimes what is really being said, or even what is being referred to.

    And then there is that basic little piece of advice – honor your mother and father so that you may stay long on the land which I have given you. Who among us does not go to his parents for advice, if he can?

    But there are other issues: sexual relations, whether to “do it” or not, etc., etc., where the Torah and Bible are both helpful, both in the commandments they set down, but also in the examples the people about the Bible is about act. If life where all that clear cut, none of us would be writing here – except the sports and entertainment reviewers.

    So the offer still stands, Les. Sounds to me like you need help reading…

  • S.T.M

    Ruvy wrote: “There are issues of … sexual behavior.”

    Thank God for the Sacrament of confession …

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. Ruvy:

    Your childish insults about my “reading skills” make you seem quite stupid, frankly, although you seem to think they’re amusing. I thought maybe if I didn’t respond to them you’d drop the practice, but alas not.

    Your “aged tome” statement remains nonsense.

    “Advice” like “honor they mother and father” or “thou shalt not steal” is “telling someone what to do or think.”

    But, of course, only according to the accepted definitions of the words in the sentence and the logical order in which they are placed.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    More proof of the vileness of the non-people known as “Palestinians” (see comment #12 on this article)

    Pesach Massacre Averted: Hamas Mass Murder Car was in Tel Aviv

    Quoted from the story:

    The Shaba”k (General Security Service)said that a Hamas terrorist had successfully entered the Greater Tel Aviv area in a car laden with 100 kg. (220 lbs.) of explosives before Passover. Besides the explosives, it contained large amounts of shrapnel material, intended to maximize carnage. For reasons that are not yet known, the attack was not carried out and the terrorist drove the car back to Kalkilye, from where it had come. The car exploded in Kalkilyeh, in what the Shabak says was a ‘work accident.’

    Some reports say the suicide terrorist simply “changed his mind.” The terrorist carries a blue Israeli ID card as a result of his marriage to an Arab-Israeli.

    The would-be suicide terrorist was able to drive the car into Tel Aviv with the help of his Israeli ID card, which he received as a result of his marriage (or his father’s, according to some versions) to an Arab-Israeli from Taibeh. The ID made it easy for him to drive past IDF roadblocks from Kalkilye – which is under Hamas/Palestinian Authority control – into the nearby Tel Aviv area. His vehicle also carried Israel license plates.

    Te full story can be read at the link provided.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    I’m going to keep rubbing your nose in the fact that these Arabs are the shitty bastards devoted to killing your relatives and friend here – whom you defend so readily –

    ast update – 08:19 01/04/2007
    New Fatah Gaza force training for future clashes with Hamas
    By Avi Issacharoff , Haaretz Correspondent

    This story from 1 April describes a force of troops being trained by the Egyptians to fight Hamas – and who else?

    From the article:

    So far the organization – known as the Special Force – has recruited 1,400 combatants, a thousand of which have undergone military training.

    Fatah intends to recruit an addition of at least 1,000 men to the organization, loyal to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas. The organization is headed by Sami Abu Samhadana, a notable operative in the first intifada.

    Palestinian sources told Haaretz that the new recruitment effort was initiated some six weeks ago. According to the sources, officers from Palestinian General Intelligence service and the National Security Force were assigned to the ranks of the new organization.

    They added that the organization is designed to function as an intervention force in case of a second conflagration of hostilities in the Gaza Strip between Hamas and Fatah.

    A force trained to deal with Hamas can also deal with the IDF. An Israeli “incursion” into Gaza, if it decided to be necessary, will be a very bloody venture – particularly considering the incompetent hands of Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni at the country’s rudder.

  • Ruvy, until you learn to discriminate between militants and ordinary citizens, these remarks of yours just sound like racist crap.

    If every single Arab in the Middle East really wanted Israel gone, there would be no stopping it, despite the vastly superior Israeli weaponry.

    As a self-professed spiritual person, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself, in my opinion. I find the constant hate you keep publishing deeply offensive.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. Ruvy:

    Your religion causes you to hate others. This is symptomatic of mental disease. It’s also dangerous and disgusting.

    To repeat: Your religion causes you to hate others.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “until you learn to discriminate between militants and ordinary citizens,…”

    Boy, Chris, you can’t even bring yourself to say “terrorist”, can you? Just like the BBC, eh?

    As I pointed out in comment #12, these are the people – this non-people, “Palestinians” – that dances in the street when Jews die. They smile when they hear that our widows will cry, and that our parents will mourn the loss of their children. I’ve seen this at bus stops in Jerusalem when I lived there.

    Distinguish between ordinary citizens and terrorists? Because of these bastards, every Israeli has to regard himself as a frontline soldier – no matter how much of a civilian hew is – this includes me, my wife and children.

    My religion causes you to hate others? Right, Leslie. Keep the bullshit flying. It looks good on the electronic page, false as it is…

  • Ruvy, making up spurious cheapshots is so easy for the zealot, isn’t it? It’s tragic how living the dream has turned your life into something more akin to a waking nightmare.

    Until you can accept the darkness in your own heart, you will always be this way. I can’t imagine what it is like to be so ethically craven…

  • Leslie Bohn

    Ruvy, you are right. I don’t actually know what makes you hate others. I only assume it’s your religion, because that is all you ever write about, and the folks you so badly want dead are of a different religion. But, you are right, something else may be causing you to hate others (like a mental disease).

    Here, in five minutes of searching through ONE POST, are some examples of the hate you spread. I ask you to stop, as your words are offensive, racist and violent.

    these Arabs are the shitty bastards devoted to killing your relatives and friend

    So we have in the Palestinians a non-people who are vile.

    A no-nation that is a vile people

    Rabbi Meir Kahane, ZTUQ”L, HI”D (may he be remembered for his goodness, may he be a blessing in his holiness, and may his blood be avenged by god)

    Pure racism, pure hate, in the name of a god. Praise the lord!

  • Zedd


    At some point its okay to admit that you are wrong.

    YOU ARE WRONG. You are brainwashed and have a worped sense of reality. Fix it.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Received in e-mail courtesy of Steven Shamrak.

    You see kids, each Arab terrorist attack brings people into my camp. I’m not isolated at all in my views and the number of Israelis who agree with me grows daily. This is because we can see the facts on he ground while the traitors in our midst flee – like Ilan Pappe, who took his lying mouth to England.

    Think, Jamie! You can do what Liam Bailey did – an interview with that pig and get it published here and everywhere else your friends feast their eyes… What an opportunity for you!

    And now, for a taste of the truth.

    1.Weakness Encourages Enemies

    (source: Debka.com)

    Several Arab organizations are preparing the most radical showdown ever between their community and the state of Israel . Its security and judicial institutions will be called on to stand up to a wholesale assault on the very nature of the Jewish state and its right to live in security. Israeli Arab leaders are preparing to harness world opinion to their challenge of the legality of state rule over the Arab national minority and gather support for restrictions over the jurisdiction of Israel national security services, including the police, in Israeli Arab locations.

    The apparent weakness Israel displayed in the Lebanon war of last summer emboldened major Israeli Arab organizations to launch a strong bid for a revision of the Jewish state’s structure and character, so as to satisfy their national aspirations as a part of the pan-Arab community.

    Followed the Shin Beit’s discovery of a serious breach of security, the controversial head of MK Balad, the radical Arab National Party and a Protestant Christian, secretly left Israel some weeks ago. Members of his family have just joined him. The family clearly had no intention of returning to their home in the Galilee village of Shfaram. (May all Arabs, the occupiers of the Jewish land, follow him!)

    2. Dear friends, you may visit shamrak.com and view the introduction letters, the log of recent editorial letters and archive of my articles .

    Terrorists, captured in Lebanon and held in Israel, are allowed to communicate regularly and directly with their families with Red Cross assistance. Nothing has been seen or heard of the Israeli captives – Gideon Shalit, Udi Goldwasser and Eldad Regev – since they were seized in June/July 2006 by Hamas and Hezbollah. – This is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention! Where are the UN resolutions and condemnation? Why are the so-called liberals and academics silent?

    3. Food for Thought. by Steven Shamrak

    a. First and foremost we must tell both ourselves and the Jewish leadership: “Stop behaving like we are still living in a Ghetto!”

    b. The Mind Terrorising Games. Hamas Militants who captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit nearly 10-months-ago have named hundreds of prisoners they want freed in a swap deal. Shin Bet security service officials are now reviewing the list, which was received via Egyptian mediators and contains between 500 and 1,000 names. PA Information Minister Mustafa Barghouti said. “If the Israeli government is serious, there is now a very good opportunity to end this chapter.” (By making such demand, the Hamas government has proved once again that it is a terror organization. It offers no “Proof of Life”, but only terrorizes and torments Israel and the family of kidnapped Israeli soldier with false hope. Gaza is Jewish land and is a terror-infested nest at the moment. It must be cleared of Arabs and then the terror will end!)

    c. Ancient Jewish City is Found. Workers digging a new Jerusalem light rail line have stumbled upon the remains of an ancient Jewish city from the first century C.E. under what is now the Arab suburb of Shuafat. (Why do we tolerate Arab occupation of Jewish land?)

    d. Attack at Cave of the Patriarchs. Two members of the Border Police were stabbed near the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron . The attacker was a 17-year-old Arab. Knesset member Nissan Slomiansky of the National Religious Party blamed the stabbing on recent attempts to evacuate Jews from Hebron home.

    e. Quote of the Week:

    “Why did miracles happen in Egypt ? Because we believed they would. Those who didn’t believe in miracles saw only plagues.” – >From the teachings of the Lubavicher Rebbe. – Creation of the State of Israel was also a miracle. We must help and actively participate in the realization of another miracle – Liberation of all Jewish land from Arab occupation!

    f. PR Strategy to Receive Aid. While the world sees the Arab Summit peace initiative as a serious proposal, for the Palestinian Authority (PA) it is a well-orchestrated PR strategy that has nothing to do with bringing about peace. By proposing conditions it knows Israel can never accept, the PA hopes to renew international political and financial support for itself while isolating Israel as intransigent. According to the new PA Foreign Minister Ziyad Abu Amr, the goals of the Arab Summit include “lifting from it [the PA] the international blockade.” In exchange, he says, ” Israel must be put under an international blockade.”

    g. Stealing IDF Weapons for PA. A non-commissioned Arab officer in the IDF, Arkaan Bashir was indicted last week for stealing weapons from the army for sale to PA Arab terrorist groups. (Most Israeli-Arabs have pledged their loyalty and it is not to Israel!)

    h. What UN does in Lebanon ? About 13,000 U.N. troops patrolling southern Lebanon have found few arms caches there. Meanwhile, Hezbollah has openly bragged of stockpiling 33,000 missiles and regrouping its fighters in case of another war with Israel. “We in the resistance have weapons, and we openly declare that we have weapons, that we are completing our preparedness for a greater and more dangerous stage,” Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah’s leader, said last month. “They used this land during the war, and nothing has changed. In fact, there are more fighters here now than there were,” says Hafez Kirwan, the leader of As-Srairi village, a Druze community.

    i. Rejecting Israel is Contempt for Quran Teachings.

    (source: Arabs for Israel.com)

    2:47 and 2:122 Children of Israel! Call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.

    10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.

    17:104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land of promise”

    7:137 And We made the children of Israel , who were considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, – lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy…

    20:80 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you to give you the right side (the blessed side) of Mount Sinai , and We sent down to you Manna (special food) and quails.

    32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel . [32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

    45:16 We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophet hood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favoured them above all other nations.

    44: 32 And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the ‘Alamîn (mankind) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

    [17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, ” scatter and live all over the world…and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land”.

    (Comment: The last verse proves that the Quran declared, that it is the will of G-d (Allah) himself to gather the children of Israel again in their promised land before the end days. Accordingly, No Muslim (as well as Christian) has the right to interfere with gathering the Jews in Israel again, as this is the will of G-d himself. In addition, honest analysis of the Quranic verses above leads to the conclusion that the West Bank and Gaza (and Jordan) are better called the “occupied” (by Arabs) Jewish land.

  • Zedd


    You don’t have a camp. You were born alone and you will die alone. Your delusion of an US vs THEM has consumed your life. You are responsible for what YOU do on this Earth.

    On this site you have been vile and racist. Your delusion about being part of something bigger continues to keep you in psychological slavery and spiritual depravity. Your Jewness doesn’t give you permission to be rude, hateful, irrational, hurtful, and RIGHT all of the time. It doesn’t absolve you from being introspective, apologetic, re-conciliatory, compassionate and caring.

    Your knowledge of scripture is meaningless if you don’t understand its significance. It is not to get you free land or a free pass from criticism. It is not a whipping tool for those who disagree with you or point out your misdeeds. It is there to teach YOU to love your neighbor. It exists to teach YOU to be patient and wise…. but the fool despises wisdom.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    Knowledge of Scripture does not give anyone the right to be rude, irrational or hateful. I’m citing the Toráh here to demonstrate what stood out to me like a sore thumb when I read it. You don’t have to like the citation, but unfortunately, every day that passes proves how RIGHT I am. In this instance, it is no fun to be right.

  • Sorry, Ruvy, you are seeking signs where there are none. You’re like a giant dog with a bone, you ain’t EVER gonna let go, even if it kills you. That’s a metaphor, not saying you’re a dog, just in case you’re in one of your touchy moods.