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All About Trusting Bush and Other Leading Liars

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In the latest round of calls for truth and transparency, a defiant U.S. government resists accusations that charge secret elements within the executive branch with violating human rights around the world. George W. Bush defends his decision to empower and authorize the CIA (and other secret organizations under his authority) to run amok throughout the world, exerting its will as it sees fit.

The ugly truth has outraged the citizens of this country and many others. We now know our government has been involved in making and executing secret decisions that run counter to the morals and values of most Americans. Bush's response to the outrage is merely to state that the secret prisons where the CIA "detained" its suspects illegally, immorally and without due process of any law, much less the laws of the United States (that do not apply in every region and quarter of the globe), have been emptied of whatever captives were once being held.

Okay, so the lying president who authorized the license to kidnap, torture and kill in secret now says that the still undisclosed number of prisons used by still secret factions of our government are supposedly empty. And who can determine he’s telling the truth? Furthermore, don’t the decisions made by Bush to send secret cells into other nations to conduct activities of a terrorist nature constitute state-sponsored terrorism?

Not one member of Congress—where the representatives of the American people establish the laws governing our nation—has a clue about the actual number and location of the CIA's secret prisons. The CIA doesn't answer to Congress, the president does. But Congress hasn't determined this issue is big enough to meet the standard necessary to call for an independent investigation of the executive branch and its leaders. In fact, it appears that treason, treachery and sacrificing the lives of Americans and innocent peoples in Iraq and Afghanistan, based on decisions made by this president, don’t amount to the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors" in the minds of most members of Congress.

"Whoa, partner! Are you calling for an impeachment of the President based upon the actions of the CIA?" some will reluctantly wonder. Before one gallops headlong into the arena of charging the President (and Vice President) with treason and treachery against the American people, please consider the facts as they are currently known. The President has used the events of 9/11 to launch an unprecedented assault upon the freedoms of Americans, and citizens of other nations, specifically expanding the authority of covert operations and instituting new elements within his chain of command that have massively expanded the power and scope of the executive branch of government. The resounding truth is that 9/11 is not accepted by the American people as a foregone conclusion of "terrorist" attacks.

Even a former National Security Advisor testified to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in February that the U.S. government is not only capable, but quite readily willing to sacrifice American lives in a false flag operation that could galvanize support for a war against Iran. This very notion is the crux and foundation of suspicions by millions of Americans regarding the secrets and unexplained phenomena surrounding the events of 9/11. Was it an inside job to garner support for rampant military force that seeks to advance a clandestine agenda that focuses on the oil resources in Iraq and Iran?

Not everyone will accept that our democratically elected, freedom-touting government willingly murders innocent peoples, despite historical evidence that proves otherwise. The unfortunate outcropping of such short-sighted thinking is that the U.S. government certainly would never do to its own citizens what it has done to those of other nations. But those who think so gullibly ignore the facts that cannot be hidden.

Consider the establishment, under this administration alone, of an expanding secret government that operates in plain sight: Establishment of the Department of Homeland Security with its secret budget and evolving missions without accountability to the people, the new Director of National Intelligence (DNI) who oversees 16 secret agencies and answers only to the president, the new Secretary of Defense (former CIA head), the move of former covert ops leader John Negroponte (DNI) into the No. 2 spot in the U.S. State Department, and most recently the institution of a National Continuity Coordinator and the formulation of a secretive "Plan" the president intends to sign in August.

Add to all of that the fact that the president's father is a former leader of the CIA. Consider his influence of U.S. foreign policy as Vice President under Reagan for eight years, his four-year presidency. Consider the continuation of his military invasion of Iraq throughout the Clinton administration (eight years) and an escalation of U.S. military control of Iraq into an outright occupation and government control through the auspices of the current Bush administration.  By the end of the term of this administration, the U.S. involvement in the Middle East will have gone unchanged and unhampered for 28 years under the leaders of just two families that have remained at the pinnacle of U.S. policy-making the entire span.

Consider the notion that Hillary Clinton may very well be crowned the next U.S. leader and if her reign continues for 8 years the total span of leadership at the highest levels of U.S. government for just two families will equal 36.All of the current administration's covert and overt military decisions and unprecedented expansions of the power of the executive were created in response to the U.S. "war on terror," which is a direct outcropping of, and directly related to 9/11. Also add to the secret elements that have no accountability to the people, the current and continuing overt operations of the U.S. military in direct defiance of the will of the people. The will of the American people, presumably represented by Congress, isn't represented at all. The "thousands of mistakes," admittedly made by this president in exerting its will militarily despite the outcry of the American people, have resulted in literally hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocent people, as well as the destruction of vital resources that have impacted millions in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

And given the heightened civil war for which the U.S. government has been charged as catalyzing, the American people are being compared to the naive population of Germany leading up to, and during World War II. The facts: 

  • Today, we know that the rationale for President Bush's decision to send troops into Iraq in 2003 was bogus. The rationale is today considered a "mistake."
  • We know the former President George H. Bush, sent American troops (more than 500,000) into Iraq in 1991 proclaiming the notion that Saddam threatened world peace and must be stopped from possessing nuclear weapons, and the U.S. would defend Saudi Arabia. All of Bush's assertions were false.
  • We know the U.S. has maintained a military presence in Iraq, controlling more than 2/3 of its skies, and bombing that nation continually since 1991 when the U.S. initiated an invasion and attacks that have never ended. 
  • We know the same rhetoric has been used by the presidents (Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, and Bush 43) since 1980, when President Jimmy Carter declared the Persian Gulf would be controlled and defended by force from the U.S. military. That rhetoric has been reiterated by leaders since Carter and ramped up to the definition of anything that threatens "U.S. vital economic interests" anywhere will be met with brute force.
  • We know that since the 1953 overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government by covert CIA ops (led by Kermit Roosevelt), the U.S. has determined that the oil in the Persian Gulf (Iran, Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia specifically) is considered "U.S. vital interests."
  • We know that the events of 9/11 produced contradictory explanations and statements by the White House and Pentagon, in addition to suspicious accounts made by the FAA and NORAD, along with the fact that none of the recovered plane pieces and assorted associated wreckage has been made available to independent investigators outside of government control.
  • We know the scenes of the 9/11 events (Pentagon, WTC Towers, and the field in Pennsylvania) were all cleansed without investigative processes employed even though these were the scenes of mass murders.
  • We know that President Bush and former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld have both made contradictory public statements about the events of 9/11, contradicting not only each other but themselves as well.   
  • We know the president and Congress have stonewalled and defied all efforts to independently investigate 9/11.
  • We know the president reluctantly allowed a manipulated and fixed inquiry into 9/11, nearly two years after the fact, through the facade of an investigative authority under the 9/11 Commission.
  • We know the president and vice president have never testified under oath regarding the questions posed by the Family Steering Committee, and suspiciously demanded the leaders sit together and speak only to two individuals who were appointed by the White House to lead the 9/11 Commission.
  • We know, to date, that the executive branch refuses to answer the questions that remain unasked by the rigged 9/11 Commission.
  • We know that 9/11 was the catalyst for the "war on terror" that has been used to conduct illegal and immoral secret operations both inside and outside the United States.
  • We know that Iraq's claim regarding nuclear weapons was true, and the U.S. claim was false.
  • We know that the U.S. is building permanent U.S. bases in Iraq despite the overwhelming opposition by the American people to remaining there.
  • We know the U.S. has employed secret strategies that include kidnapping, torture, murder, manipulation of the media, illegally spying upon American citizens, false charges, unlawful detainments, indefinite imprisonment without charge or due process of law, failure to provide legal representation, and a host of other facts that continue to be discovered as individuals outside of the government's executive chain of command maintain rigorous investigations of the lies posed by the president and his underlings.
  • We know the image of the U.S. around the world has deteriorated into one that paints us as one of the most dangerous nations threatening global peace.

The list goes on. But the radical opposition to criticism of this administration ignores virtually everything Bush and Co. do, even to the point of ignoring those admissions made by this administration that run counter to the beliefs of even the most ardent Bush supporter. It is a sad state of affairs when tyranny visits America and no one recognizes this stranger. It is made even worse when we embrace him and identify with him as the standard-bearer of what America is and should be.

This is not a nation of freedom-loving patriots who defend the cause of freedom everywhere, as the propagandists would proclaim. Instead, this is a nation of hypocritical leaders who have overthrown several democratic governments based upon the secret decisions of presidents utilizing secret elements within our government that have no accountability to the people. These secret powers, within the executive branch alone, retain immunity from prosecution even when illegal acts they've committed are eventually discovered.

Thus, the power of the judicial branch has no authoritative "balance," and the power of Congress is rendered moot when members of both houses act as operatives of the executive branch, rather than representatives of the people. The lives destroyed by executive decisions, and by both covert and overt forces, cannot be recovered. The generations of people whose nations have endured the irrational destructive forces fueled by American hypocrisy naturally breed contempt for the assault upon their families and those who committed such immoral acts.

The American people, mostly blind to the machinations of a lying, deceptive government, do suspect the leaders. We know they lie. We know they are untrustworthy. And the saddest part of it all is that even while knowing these facts, when the President proclaims a nation, or even a person, is an enemy of the United States, we, the people, look at that person with far more suspicion than those leaders making the accusation—even though we know for a fact that our leaders are liars.

How then, did America evolve from a nation that once proclaimed, "In God we trust," to a country filled with mostly apathetic, ignorant citizens who trust in the liars we know we cannot trust?

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About Mike Green

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    Thanks, Mike.

    Your facts are clear, your writing succinct, and your conclusions well-supported.

    We just don’t take serious things very seriously in this country anymore;after all, we have another ball game or reality show to watch, or another shiny overpriced gadget to buy.

    Remembering D-Day this week could remind us that there were once important things to be done and our people and leaders did them with truth, common sense, focus and commitment–but it probably won’t.

    It’s good to read the words of someone who does care, and questions the nakedness of the emperor.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I’ve sometimes wondered what it’s like to live inside the head of a paranoid psychotic. Thanks for the free tour.

    Your bullet points ‘know’ a whole bunch of things, but many of them are just not true.

    If you start from assumptions about reality which are fallacious, then all of your conclusions are tainted and should be disregarded.

    Dave

  • Doug Hunter

    Good points Nalle, I enjoy looking into the abyss myself.

    The author of these rantings posits opinion as fact, a trait he shares with those he claims are lying scumbags, etc, etc. We get the government we deserve. If you don’t like it have a look in the mirror.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    It’s not just posting opinions as facts, though. He subscribes to a whole set of alternate ‘facts’ which others also believe in, which are basically concocted out of coincidences and wishful thinking, and then promoted as facts, when if you trace them back to their roots they’re just nonsense. But it’s much more dangerous than just passing opinions off as fact, because there are all these idiots out there on the net discussing these conspiratorial fantasies as if they are real, and that makes them more effective in deceiving the foolish and gullible. It’s insidious.

    Dave

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    #2:
    So, Dave, if you think it is a completely fallacious assumption about reality that our current crop of leaders do lie, spin, cover-up, act from self-interest and could be guilty of misfeasence and malfeasence(Iraq, CIA, etc.)– and therefore are untrustworthy and should be carefully watched and constantly questioned–then YOUR presumably opposite assumption about reality must be that they haven’t lied, deceived, failed in their duty, or acted selfishly, and are to be taken at their word, trusted and followed faithfully.

    “Your conclusions are tainted and should be disregarded.”

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    No, Lee. I didn’t say that everything in the article is wrong. That’s what makes it so pernicious. You can throw out an obvious platitude like the fact that policitians lie, spin, cover their asses and act out of self-interest, and no one is really going to disagree. Then you follow it up with outlandish claims, as if the sleaziness of politicians somehow makes the bigger lies you’re spreading true.

    Is this an actual rational process:

    Bush misrepresented why we went into Iraq.
    Therefore he lied about who attacked us on 9/11.

    It sounds good, but there’s an important step – like evidence – missing. Everyone lies, but that doesn’t mean that someone caught lying automatically lies about everything else as well. By the same standard the government has covered some things up, but that doesn’t mean that they are constantly covering things up and engaging in a broad campaign of deception.

    Dave

  • Alec

    Mike –

    The short answer of course, is that the Bush administration has ably capitalized on fear. People still support him because he has promised to protect them from shadowy enemies. And despite what we have seen both from Democrats and Republicans, there are people who give authority figures the benefit of the doubt, and who refuse to believe that a president ever lies or deceives.

    There are Christian fundamentalists and other religious people who honestly believe that because Bush is born again, he is incapable of deception and dishonesty, and that he must be supported because he is doing God’s work. The irony is that these people are closer in their sensibilities to Islamic fundamentalists than they would ever be willing to admit.

    And of course there are those who blindly support the supposed war against terrorism even though the aims, adversaries and objectives of the war are constantly — and falsely — re-defined in a way that is so confusing and inconsistent that it would even make Orwell’s Ministry of Truth dizzy. But as long as Bush promises to defeat somebody, or to attack some country that has been defined as “evil” or an opponent of Western Civilization, then these people will be as happily unthinkingly comforted as a baby with his favorite pacifier.

    Many people value security over liberty. It doesn’t matter to them that there are secret prisons or torture because as long as it is somebody else who is detained and imprisoned, they don’t particularly care that the Constitution has been rendered meaningless.

    The American people aren’t blind. They haven’t simply been deceived. Many actively embrace, and support the policies of the Bush Administration. They find comfort in the false nostrums of right-wing radio that the media should be dismissed because of their liberal bias and that the Congress and the courts are enemies of the people unless they meekly support an increasingly authoritarian executive branch that supposedly will make America strong again and return it to “correct” religious, moral and political values.

    Unfortunately, many who oppose this administration are infantile and disorganized. Instead of attempting to persuade people that there is a better way, they fall back on simplistically demonizing the administration or calling for impeachment (never going to happen). They also fail to consistently vote for alternative candidates, and instead settle for their own version of the status quo.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Indeed, Bush promised to protect us by clearly stating that no matter what the government does there will probably eventually be another terror attack on US soil. Wow. That made me feel all warm and fuzzy about Bush.

    Dave

  • Sharon Blasingame

    Thanks Mike,
    Im so glad to come across your comments. I know a lot of American citizens believe this to be full truth but at the same time feel our hands are tied to do anything. There has been an impeachment petition going around for years that has gone no where. Our senate continues to ignore us. Can we vote “no confidence” on the whole goverment? What can we do? After reading hundreds of blogs ..all asking the same question …what can we do? We the people are angry and fed up but we feel we have no power to make any changes. Some will say the elections coming soon are the answer and I say hog wash. Even those running..if they are not part of this Bush regime..well they dont even get equal air time on debates and infact or largely ignored in the debates. We feel…and I have felt for a while that even voting doesnt count…mainly because I dont think the counting is done legally. This is a very scary situation in this day and time. I expect attacks anyday on USA…another 9/11 because Bush is going to go to Iran and he just recently lifted restritions on passports…You can get one with just a receipt for applying for one? My God..where is this heading? I for one have to turn on something stupid and mind numbing before bedtime…like Paris Hilton or Roseanne just to keep from have political nightmares! I hear and read from milliions of people who bitch about all of this but so far no good suggestions on how to change this state of affairs. Do you think this will come to a civil war in America just to get our rights back and a just system in place.

  • http://www.impeachspace.com/profile/amikegreen2 Mike Green

    The U.S. is not a place where civil war can occur, at least not under the current conditions. Civil war requires two ardent opposing enemies, each willing to fight to the death for what they believe. The American people have been long lulled to sleep. At the moment of a rude awakening, they will be unable to discern between what is truth and what is purely propaganda. They will accept any plausible explanation of events, regardless of how outrageously impractical or implausible the explanation may be. And when finally faced with the truth, they will discover, to their dismay, that there is nowhere to turn. We have left the point of no return far behind long ago.

    Consider the notion that prior to the next election, another “terrorist” attack takes place. Bush then calls for suspension of the elections due to safety and security. The National Continuity Coordinator put the “Plan” in action in order to facilitate a continuous stream of communication (i.e. chain of command – see Uniform Code of Military Justice) between all branches of government on all levels, including the private sector.
    Once the president extends his power from the executive branch to all branchs on all levels and into the private sector (it is a foregone conclusion but there has to be some formal awareness) then what will people do in reaction?

    The asnwer is nothing but comply and complain.

    No one has a legitimate answer to this scenario other than to say it cannot and won’t happen.

    But what if it does?

    Who steps up?

    The president controls all secret elements within the executive branch. None answer to the American people. Congress controls nothing, including itself. Nearly half are committed to the president.

    The judicial branch is a joke with no power, and Bush flouts the laws at any point he desires anyway. Every president since FDR has done the same, so Bush isn’t an anomaly.

    Who controls the military? The Pentagon, which works for Bush.

    The private sector elements who support Bush desire the status quo because it benefits their “economic interests.”

    I am hopeful there is an alternative scenario that makes this illustration moot. but unfortunately no one has been able to provide a reasonable answer to how this nation would respond in the event elections, and subsequent handover of power, are suspended indefinitely.

    The answer, I fear, is moot, since the continual expansions of executive power have occurred since Jimmy Carter, with the federal government conducting secret wars and overt wars against the wishes of the people.

    The water is already boiling and the frogs are dead. We just don’t know it yet.

  • Billybob

    I get all my fack’s from the view and now I is educated. I know It may be hard to believe but I have only a 5th grade education.

  • http://www.impeachspace.com/profile/amikegreen2 Mike Green

    To my detractors, I welcome your rantings as well. The difference we seem to have is not in the point of believing that politicians lie, but in the point of believing when they are lying.

    As a matter of course, I am suspicious of leaders, since history offers us definitive evidence that not only do they lie, but they lie in matters of life and death. They cannot be trusted.

    Is that to say they can notbe trusted on any issue for anything? Well, in a word, yes.

    That doesn’t mean we toss up our hands and run headlong into the streets in a panic. It means we scrutinize more closely. We watch for missteps and falsehoods. We ensure when they speak and when they act that the road has been paved with serious and intense investigative scrutiny. They are to NEVER be given the benefit of the doubt.

    The decisions they make result in the deaths of innocent people. They send innocent naive warriors to kill in the name of false religious ideology (religious meaning faithfully adhered to without proof). In the end we often find through historical accounts that all was for naught. All was built upon lies.

    With this backdrop, when Bush says he saw the first plane crash into the tower and thought it was a terrible pilot before he was whisked off, we can easily determine this was a lie.

    Therefore, if this statement, given in a public venue 3 months after the fact is clearly a lie (the tape of the first plane was not available until the following day and Bush was not “whisked off” by the Secret Service into the classroom to read to kids if he witnessed the WTC tower being hit prior to entering the classroom (as he stated). This is an obvious lie.

    Rumsfeld offer his own misstep when he inadvertently mentioned the plane over Pennsylvania being “shot down” as he was offering a list of the events that we consider terrorism. A mistake? By the Secretary of Defense? Regarding a plane that to date has not turned up, even in pieces on the ground?

    Liars do not get the benefit of the doubt, especially in matters of life and death with motives and benefits favoring them on all sides.

    Stonewalling, coverups, lack of independent investigations all lead one to conclude something is wrong.

    My detractors would have the public believe that I have some sort of insane methodology, but in fact, it is my detractors whose premise is hard to swallow.

    If we just take the things we know, while dismissing the conjecture, the drawn conclusions, and the various theories posed by anyone outside of the administration. If we just look at what the administration has said and done in the aftermath of 9/11, any reasonable person, knowing how to discern between contradictory statements, those that offer plausible deniability, and the simple straightforward truth, can determine that what we’ve been told cannot be trusted.

    And if we look at the actions based upon a foundation of unproven and shaky groundwaork of propaganda, we find that a power grab has taken place in the aftermath of 9/11.

    Any historian or anyone who cares to do a modicum of research will find the U.S. leaders have a long history of lies regarding activities in the Middle East. And the numbers of lives that have been negatively impacted by those nefarious and devious decisions is staggering!

    How then, can anyone today, ignore the fact that close scrutiny of obvious blunders, contradictions and stonewalling has been conspicuously missing within the legislative branch of our government, which is presumably there to “balance” the power and thwart the attempt of tyrannical reign by executives. How can anyone ignore the fact that the mainstream media is totally compromised.

    How much of the American public is even aware that the U.S. has already made commitments with the British to remain in Iraq through 2012? And that’s just for starters. how is it that our government already knows this to the degree that it has defied the will of the people in committing to a plan that opposes the American people?

    The simple answer is because folks on this blog who have seriously high intellect choose to use it as a laser beam focused on undermining folks like me who persuade people to look closely, scrutinize more carefully and do not accept propaganda posed and promoted by politicians merely because they hold high positions.

    If my detractors were to focus their razor-sharp minds upon this administrations, as well as those that preceded it, in the same manner as they pick apart and parse my statements, they would find the glaring misrepresentations of truth. They would easily uncover contradictions, conundrums and dilemmas that cannot be easily dismissed. And perhaps they, with all of their rationale and logic, would conclude that something really is wrong.

    Then we’d all be on the same page trying to halt the massive expansion of power until our questionsand investigations of apparent lies and distortions are cleared up by this administration.

    It is at that time those folks, like those of us who have already discovered, this administration does not need to consider the questions raised outside of it by the people. The people are subservient. We are allowed to complain. But in the end we have no choice but to comply.

  • MCH

    “Bush promised to protect us by clearly stating that no matter what the government does there will probably eventually be another terror attack on US soil. Wow.”
    – Vox Nalle

    Actually, GW was referring to a “TERRORIST” attack. A “TERROR” attack is more like what stray dogs are capable of in the backyard of a fortified compound. And we all know the best answer for that situation is a loaded 30.06 near the back door…

  • Sharon Blasingame

    Mike Green said “Then we’d all be on the same page trying to halt the massive expansion of power until our questionsand investigations of apparent lies and distortions are cleared up by this administration.” Cleared up by this administration? What administration? My question is how do “WE THE PEOPLE” clear this up? Millions of others out here in blog land on 100s of blogs would like to know how to stop them. Where and how do we unite? If we cant accomplish that…we might as well just tuck our tails between our legs and watch Paris Hilton! Please tell me this is not our only option. No One in power listens…they all seem to be part of it…No One in news listens…they have all been muted. Should I just start researching what/how other people in other countries do to survive under a dictatorship? Problem with that is if I start surfing the net to research this, well I might be deemed a terrorist under the Presidents ‘I got the right to spy on anyone’ act and be put in one of those “secret prisons”. Sorry for ranting but I am truly concerned here and what you say means we are already under a dictatorship. I had planned on opening a business in the near future until my eyes opened to the fact I cant get a business grant because 1. Im not a foreigner 2. I dont want to open or transfer my business to a foreign country. Nowdays Im trying to keep my mind from going into the mindset that I need to just concentrate on planning ahead just to survive as a human and an American citizen, i.e. food and shelter and self protection instead of putting into action a business plan. Thanks for listening and answering my rants here.

  • Sharon Blasingame

    Mike…to answer your question “To my detractors, I welcome your rantings as well. The difference we seem to have is not in the point of believing that politicians lie, but in the point of believing when they are lying.” Everytime they open their mouth! They are only interested in lining their pockets (Cheney/Haliburton, getting votes from immigrants (soon to be if they have their way on the bill who will vote for them for just passing the immigration bill)or to further their political standing in the eyes of other politicians who hold more power then themselves!

  • Sharon Blasingame

    Mike …here one for you from USA Today…”DETROIT (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton told union members and their families Saturday that the country must spend more on manufacturing.
    “If we don’t have a strong manufacturing base in our economy, it won’t be long until we don’t have a strong economy,” the Democratic presidential candidate said.

    She also cited education, said she wanted to work for universal health care and would bring troops home from Iraq.

    Clinton said revitalizing the beleaguered manufacturing industry is critical, given fierce global competition and growing health care and retirement costs.

    “We borrow money every day from other countries like China,” Clinton said.”

    My answer to this is to make the government stop paying our manufacturers to move their plants to other countries! End NAFTA

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Obviously, Hillary has her target demographic down pat…

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    To my detractors, I welcome your rantings as well. The difference we seem to have is not in the point of believing that politicians lie, but in the point of believing when they are lying.

    Which is worse, Mike, the well-intentioned lie of a politician or the creatively packaged collection of lies which makes up a destructive conspiracy theory?

    I prefer to get my lies from professionals, becuase I know why they lie and when they lie, and how far they’re willing to go. The lies you get from amateurs tend to be more destructive and more extreme and their obscure motivations make me nervous.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Dave

    Great posts

  • Dr Dreadful

    One the one hand: If anybody, anybody on this thread mentions ducks and specifically ducks walking and quacking, I will smack them down. Life is not that simple, except in the sense that the whole duck thing is very old and stale.

    On the other hand: As far as trusting Bush goes, that depends what you’re trusting him to do. From the point of view of one living overseas, I knew he was trouble from the get-go. He had somewhat less foreign policy experience than a Nebraska-based gopher and in fact, I believe that at the time he won the Republican nomination he had never even traveled outside the US. Furthermore, unlike Daddy – who in spite of having run the CIA and been schooled for eight years as VP under Reagan, was relatively harmless – Junior had embraced something called ‘neoconservatism’, which didn’t sound very nice and seemed even less so once I learned more about what it actually meant. It seemed certain that, with a GOP-controlled Congress at his back, Bush would proceed to systematically dismantle all the policies and progress put in place by his predecessor, purely on principle* – whether they were good for America and the world at large or not. On the foreign policy side, I was absolutely confident that such a man would embarrass both himself and his country with some sort of ham-fisted cowboy notion of diplomacy.

    (Not that his predecessor was much better in that regard. I recall cringing at the news of the missile strike on the factory in Sudan where a certain Mr bin Laden may, possibly, once upon a time, have been hiding; and at the far-fetched notion of defeating Saddam and Milosevic through air power alone.)

    No-one could have anticipated 9/11 but in retrospect, Junior turned out pretty much exactly as I outlined above. Foreign policy actually probably wouldn’t have been much different: he would have found some pretext or other for a war. I suspect that following the initial shock of those planes hitting the buildings, he couldn’t believe his luck.

    So yeah, I trusted Junior. But not in a good way.

    *That was a lot of Ps. Purely accidental. I’m not turning into our alliterative friend Richard Brodie, I assure you. ;-)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “I’m not turning into our alliterative friend Richard Brodie, I assure you. ;-)”

    Good Lord, I hope not. ONE of him is one too many…

  • Doug Hunter

    “Foreign policy actually probably wouldn’t have been much different: he would have found some pretext or other for a war.”

    What led you to the conclusion Bush was a power hungry warmonger before 9/11?

    a) His ownership of a baseball team.

    b) Barely getting elected and having no mandate.

    c) Spending 80% of his time vacationing at his ranch.

    d) His history of drinking, partying, and cocaine.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Clav, I think actually MBD is the laughing stock of the site.

    If there is indeed anything funny about his unhealthy obsession with Dave…

  • Dr Dreadful

    Doug –

    I’ll take (e) All of the above.

    Unschooled playboy from an old-money family suddenly finds himself commander-in-chief of the most powerful and sophisticated military machine ever assembled.

    Why wouldn’t you want to play with that kind of toy?!

  • http://www.impeachspace.com/profile/amikegreen2 Mike Green

    I respectfully disagree with those who believe Bush (41) was relatively harmless. A former CIA director with 8 years of experience in the White House ascending to the throne of power isn’t harmless in any way. He is precisely the man the unknown powers behind our governent want at the helm.

    Speaking with calm and intelligence, Bush claimed he wanted a “kinder, gentler” government. This is the man who was in charge of Reagan’s counterterrorism team.

    This was the man who, in 1976, as the leader of the CIA was in the perfect place to watch the ascension of Saddam from prison to Iraq’s version of National Security Director. This is the man who was in-the-know when Kissinger directed the Shah of Iran to assist the Kurds in Iraq battle Saddam and the Baathists until Saddam signed the Algiers Accord in 1975 which moved the border between Iraq and Iran to the middle of the Shatt River, which allowed Iran to use barge transportation of oil to the Persian Gulf. Iran then promptly removed its support of the Kurdish fight for independence. Of course the rebels were then slaughtered.

    That was under Carter, who proclaimed the control of the Persian Gulf would be done by military force if necessary. I would like to take this moment to remind Americans that the Persian Gulf is not ours and we ought not sacrifice one life to defend the control over it.

    By the time Bush became president in 1989, he had a history o fintimate knowledge of U.S. lies and covert ops in Iran and Iraq. It is no coincidence that he then orchestrated the invasion of Iraq in 1991, utilizing more than a half-million U.S. troops.

    The lies the U.S. told leading up to that invasion have been forgotten by the American public. And that is a sad state of affairs, since we send our sons and daughters to kill and be killed, sacrificing their lives upon an altar of political allegiance and public apathy.

    Today, I doubt if anyone on this or very many other blogs can recollect the lies told by Bush to get our troops into Saudi Arabia to “defend Saudi Arabia” as proclaimed by Bush.

    Since that time this nation has never left Iraq.

    Now we argue and debate whether Bush (43) knows what he’s doing in Iraq … or at all.

    If we would take the time to see the pattern that has unfolded we would know that Bush (43) is continuing to follow a plan set in motion by his dad, who some consider relatively harmless.

    Throughout the Clinton administration covert ops were used in “terrorist” acts to try and overthrow Saddam. but why? We had SUPPORTED him during an 8-year war with Iraq. We supplied him with chemical weapons (even a Senate investigation disclosed this). We helped him kill indiscriminately and suddenly we had a change of heart on August 2, 1990? Just one week earlier on July 25, 1990 we were having a dialogue with Saddam in which we specifically told him we wanted to STRENGTHEN OUR FRIENDSHIP with him.

    Gentlemen, what happened in that one week for Saddam to become someone with whom we wanted a closer friendship to somone who was a threat to world peace? The invasion of Kuwait?

    Puhleeze.

    He told us the same day we were asking to strengthen our friendship that his intent was to resolve the boder dispute over oil with Kuwait by military force since he had exhausted diplomatic efforts. Did we express outrage? Did we tell him we would be horrified and run to the U.N. for support to invade his nation?

    No. We told him we had “no opinion.”

    Gentlemen, Saddam was set up by a “relatively harmless” president. And we are in Iraq today, not because of the 2003 ground invasion, but because of the 1991 invasion.

    From that day to this, America’s military has never left Iraq. But you wouldn’t know that from media reports or conversations on various blogs.

    Let’s stop pretending our leaders have an ounce of integrity. And if you believe that “terrorists” attacked us on 9/11, thus opening the door for the massive expansion of power by the executive branch ever since, then perhaps you should have a talk with former National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski.

    Discounting what I say is anyone’s prerogative. But when a man who has been at the pinnacle of U.S. foreign policy offers us a plausible scenario that includes our government staging a terrorist attack in order to garner support for an invasion of Iran, that undermines all of the arguments that maintain our government owuld never or could never do such a thing.

    Of course, numerous hostorical accounts of our government doing exactly that sort of thing on a massive scale also undermines the credibility of those who say that the government may have done that but wouldn’t do the next thing.

    But in case someone will paint me as the conspiracy theorist, may I remind you all that I am the investigator asking you all why you aren’t asking questions of the suspect, but rather inhaling deeply the intoxicating aroma of the stench of lies told by that suspect who has, by the way, proffered the official conspiracy theory that many seem willing to accept without scrutiny.

    Well, i do not worry. I know the truth cannot remain hidden. And since I predicted the invasion of Iraq in the summer of 2002, as well as the targeting of Iran in that same year, I look forward to the period of awakening by those who ceaselessly deride the questioners instead of asking questions themselves.

    Unfortunately, I will, yet again, find no pleasure or comfort in being right. After all, what I am saying today requires a monumental effort to resist the tide washing over this nation in the guise of security, but in reality is tyranny cloaked as a friend.

    By the time of the awakening, it will be far too late to do anything. And I fear perhaps that time has already passed.

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Apologies for recent heavy comment editing, but the person who was posting under the name of Emry was obviously determined to cause havoc by repeatedly posting under multiple names of others. Their IP has been banned. Let’s hope life gets back to abnormal soon! ;-)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    No need to apologize, Chris. That commenter was disruptive, to say the least.

    Thanks!

  • Zedd

    Funny Dave Nalle!

  • bliffle

    re:#25, Mike,

    Yeah, my enthusiasm for Bush 41 has been considerably dampened since I started looking hard at his record. 41 laid a lot of the groundwork for the truly horrible situation that 43 has gotten us into with his dangerous combination of ignorance and willfulness.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Doug, you left out (e) Saddam’s attempt to assassinate his father.

    then your question would have a sensible answer.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    I’m surprised Emry wasn’t banned before this. This all goes back to not having a hard & fast rule on this site about everybody posting under ONE name, & one name ONLY.

    That said, IMO the article & most of the following comments are exellent. Dave, if you want to defend Junior, then stop just asserting he’s innocent, & start putting up some bullets of your own stating WHY. The author & others have produced & listed DOCUMENTED actions etc. by BushCo; you haven’t listed anything at any time to contradict them, except your assertions that they’re wrong. Sorry – no credibility on this issue with me.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Nancy, in the US people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That’s what a court would give Bush and it’s what I give him. Until the accusers can come up with some evidence of a real crime that’s not primarily subjective, the presumption of innocence applies.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    Dave, that’s a crock & you know it, otherwise NOBODY would ever be accused & indicted of anything, because indictments are by their very nature unproven allegations of wrongdoing. And I repeat, Dubya himself has provided more than enough evidence to hang him 15 times over. It’s all there on video, in print, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.

    You do live in a world of wishful thinking, don’t you.

  • bliffle

    Every day we must make decisions without having all the facts, as one would attempt in a court trial. Even a court trial can fail, as the number of exonerations attests.

    Despite the lack of thorough evidence, each person has to make decisions and judgements. We have to vote without having conclusive evidence of which is the best candidate. Even in the face of conclusive evidence of lying, as with Bill Clintons famous lie about Monica, we may vote against that information for other reasons.

    My personal judgement, YMMV, is that Bush makes poor decisions. Maybe he lies a lot, or maybe he just brings poor tools and experiences to the decision making process. Maybe he’s just shallow and lazy. But, IMO, he makes poor decisions. Were he not protected by a rich and powerful family in his early life he would have either failed badly or he would have had to improve himself greatly. Were he not protected by a rich and powerful nation, now, he would be swept away by history.

    I don’t like Bush making so many important decisions that affect me and mine. He’s not good at it.

  • Nancy

    Along with poor decisions, he has absolutely NO judgement capability when it comes to judging character of those around him. All his life he’s surrounded himself with sociopaths, thugs, & slimeballs like Rove – people even his father rejected. A double reason he should never have been allowed to be in power.

  • bliffle

    Whatever, Bush seems to be supported by cadres of people who constantly work to distract attention from his failures. Sometimes they create useful distractions in the service of their leader. Sometimes they just stifle discussion. For example, right here on BC the discussion of Iraq policy has almost disappeared in favor of such pressing topics as a simile with a Gilbert And Sullivan character, or beating up Dan Rather one more time.

    I suppose we can give thanks that poor Dave Nalle, the Poitical editor of BC, isn’t getting his feelings hurt by yet another discussion of the failings of the Iraq Invasion.

    No naughty questions, such as:

    “if Petraeus is such a great general that he’s going to save our ass, why wasn’t he appointed 3 years ago?”