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ACORN Exposed in Undercover Video Investigation

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This week, video blogger and conservative activist James O’Keefe released videos of two successful undercover investigations carried on this summer where he went to ACORN offices, one in Baltimore and one in the District of Columbia, and found the employees eager to assist him in committing and covering up multiple crimes, including tax fraud, prostitution, human trafficking and defrauding the federal government.

In both cases, O’Keefe presented himself as a pimp and his associate Hannah Giles as a prostitute looking for assistance in qualifying to get a federal low income loan so that they could purchase a house to use as a brothel to which they would be bringing underage Salvadoran girls smuggled into the country illegally to work as prostitutes. The ACORN workers seemed completely unsurprised when confronted with this scenario and in both cases gave him extensive advice on how to conceal profits from the illegal business, how to avoid paying taxes for their underage sex workers, how to keep from being harassed by the police and other pimps, how to launder money from prostitution and how to obtain public assistance for underage sexworkers claimed as dependents. They were even willing to fill out fraudulent tax forms for him.

O’Keefe’s presentation of his intent was completely unambiguous, repeatedly referring to the business as prostitution, leaving no room for any claim that the ACORN workers didn’t know what they were discussing. O’Keefe also presented himself as a law student with political ambitions and got excellent advice from the ACORN staff on how to distance himself from the prostitution business to protect his reputation for his future political career.

Major media outlets had been largely ignoring this story until today’s announcement that the Census Bureau would not be following through on a plan to use ACORN workers as data gatherers, specifically because of this scandal. O’Keefe’s work is now getting considerably exposure, but some outlets like the New York Times remain strangely silent on exactly why the Census Bureau decided to fire ACORN. This scandal may also have repercussions for the eligibility of ACORN to receive additional federal funds from the federal Stimulus plan.

As is standard practice at ACORN the workers implicated in the videos have been fired, but no one in management will be held accountable. In an ironic twist, O’Keefe may face charges in Maryland for making the videos without the consent of the subjects.

With the mainstream media facing budget cuts because of shrinking subscriber bases they are doing a lot less investigative journalism. O’Keefe’s work may signal a new frontier in citizen journalism which could fill that gap, though clearly there are risks involved.

The following videos of the two undercover investigations are heavily edited compared to versions released earlier, but provide a concise and effective summary of events leaving little question about the intent of the ACORN workers.


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About Dave Nalle

  • volunteer

    Obama used to represent and work with ACORN and has been protecting them since his election in order to continue building him a larger base of voters (legal or not)

  • Arch Conservative

    The leftist whackadoos are already claiming this means nothing and that Acorn was set up.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Dave, glad to see this here. My kudos to James and Hannah for their concern, creativity and bravery. We need more like them!

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle

    Arch, the spin on this is that O’Keefe went to a number of other ACORN offices and only these two helped him out. IMO that’s a pretty weak argument, because the honesty (or caution) of a few groups of ACORN workers who may even have been tipped off, doesn’t lessen the guilt of these ones.

    Meanwhile, this week another 11 ACORN workers were arrested in Florida for voter registration fraud. This time the FBI was involved, which might finally lead to action against the organization as a whole.

    At what point does ACORN management lose the protection of plausible deniability? How long can they keep blaming the workers, fire them and then hire them back? At some point it has to be classed as a conspiracy case and a smart prosecutor will go after the leaders.

    Dave

  • Baronius

    Dave, they didn’t just tell him how to distance himself from the prostitution for political reasons. The ACORN people told him how to launder her prostitution money into a campaign fund. The damage from this would be huge if some federal prosecutor pursued ACORN as a criminal enterprise under RICO. I imagine the Obama camp will make 100% sure that doesn’t happen.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Dave,

    The idiots on another thread managed to ignore the very same story you have as an article that I posted as a link. I see they are being awful quiet here. The sorry faker you elected is being shown for the smelly beast he is, by the associations he keeps.

    Obama still hasn’t quite fulfilled the purpose I hoped he would in convincing Israelis that the Israeli scum who bow down to him ought to be ejected from office and hung for treason – so in my eyes, he is still useful. But every news story that cuts the bastard’s credibility is a pleasure to read.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s comforting to know, Ruvy, that all those who don’t see the world exactly like you do are idiots.

    Carry on.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Ruvy is not known for his promotion of civil discourse. However, I agree that anyone who is still trying to defend ACORN at this point is some kind of idiot, useful or not.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I have been doing nothing of the kind, Dave. And Ruvy’s reference seem to be directed not at the defenders of ACORN but rather all those who thus far have not commented on the article – a different matter entirely.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We really have nothing to say to one another, so let it stay that way. I should have known better to have even bothered.

    Adios!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    That’s a lot of comments for people who basically have nothing to say.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Correct. The last ten, including this one, have nothing to do what the subject matter. What does it tell you?

  • Arch Conservative

    Jeez Roger hardly qualifies as a leftist whackadoo. Where are all the real ones on this post?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Archie.

    Somehow I knew that if I paid you a compliment, I’d get one back.

    Keep the faith. We all need to.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Nice job, Dave. There are many things that concern me about ACORN and none of them have anything to do with Mr. Obama. I am concerned by Mr. O’Keefe’s motivations. Regrettably, Mr. O’Keefe is a distant cousin and that’s about all we have in common. I respect the concept of investigative journalism but find his methodology suspect. However, what he exposes proves there is a problem within ACORN. To indict an entire organization is hardly fair. It’s akin to blaming the entire GOP for the likes of Limbaugh, Wilson and Golden Boy Boehner.

    When it comes to the census. I believe that the entire program should be managed, monitored and administered by the United States government by United States government employees sworn to uphold the Constitution. And if an employee of the Census is accused of wrongdoing and found guilty, he/she should receive the maximum penalties as prescribed by law. We need a WPA-type agency to help stimulate the economy. The Census is a great vehicle to accomplish the task. We are bound by our Constitution of conduct a census. We are morally bound to insure that such an endeavor is carried out on a level playing field by people who will be held to the highest account. ACORN consistently displays abuses of power and questionable tactics. In order for the organization to redeem itself, it must take a deep look inside itself and get their acts together. They owe this to Barack Obama, but ultimately they owe it to themselves.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “That’s a lot of comments for people who basically have nothing to say.”

    Exactly. The people who really don’t give a shit shut up and move on.

    It’s good that O’Keefe outed these scumbags. Hope he keeps all sides honest rather than turning a blind eye to his side.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    El Bicho is a satirist, no doubt about it.
    And that’s despite Ruvy’s recommendation that he had better to stick to music review.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Silas, I don’t see how O’Keefe’s motivations are relevant. I’m sure they’re as base as can be. He’d like to be the next Geraldo, practicing overblown “gotcha” journalism and digging up Al Capone’s vault purely to service his ego. But that in no way alters what happened in these two ACORN offices. Those events are important on their own merit.

    Dave

  • Mark

    It’s good that O’Keefe outed these scumbags.

    agreed

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    But that in no way alters what happened in these two ACORN offices. Those events are important on their own merit.

    Oh, I agree, Dave. Notwithstanding O’Keefe’s motivations what those ACORN workers did was wrong, period. Termination was appropriate and I think ACORN erred by not terminating management who was responsible for these workers. ACORN must be held accountable, as all community activist organizations. I don’t dispute it — in fact, I encourage it. It’s just that when we monitor these operations it has to be on an even playing field whereby the ideology of the organization is not the motivation for monitoring.

    I also feel the same about religious institutions. If a religious organization is directly involved in the body politic then it stands to reason that they should not be exempt from taxation and subject to even closer scrutiny.

    Government has its purpose. I believe that it is responsible for implementing a level playing field for all the citizenry. That includes regulation of business, charitable and religious practices in cases where those “exempt” organizations exert undue influence on the secular side of the aisle.

    I honestly believe that there would be no health crisis in America if we had laid a foundation whereby medicine was treated as a not for profit enterprise with strict regulation of insurance companies. If those practices were in place there never would have been a need for Medicare, Medicaid or this uncivil unrest.

  • Jordan Richardson

    It’s just that when we monitor these operations it has to be on an even playing field whereby the ideology of the organization is not the motivation for monitoring.

    Quoted for truth.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Good article, Dave. I’m only through the first video. I’m impressed, as usual, with the ethical souls possessed by my fellow humans.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    “That tree is rotten, so that means the WHOLE forest is rotten!!!!” That in a nutshell is Dave’s logic.

    Dave – do you remember your diatribes against ACORN’s voter registration fraud cases? Did you give ANY credit to ACORN for being the ones who blew the whistle on its workers in Nevada last year for fraudulent registrations? Did you give ANY credit to ACORN for turning in yet MORE workers in Florida for the same reason THIS VERY WEEK?

    No. You linked to an article which gave ACORN NO credit for turning in its workers. In fact, the article falsely accuses ACORN of the “voter fraud” (a felony) and NOT “voter registration fraud” (usually a gross misdemeanor IIRC).

    If you had done your homework, Dave, you would have seen this quote in other references: “Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernández Rundle praised ACORN for its work exposing the fraudulent acts by some former employees. “We’ve been very aggressive about a lot of these cases,” she said. “But we would not have known about these workers unless ACORN brought it to us.”

    But your reply gave no such credit, did it? To you, it was just another excuse to attack ACORN…never mind that NOT ONE FRAUDULENT VOTE was cast due to those fraudulent voter registrations. NOT ONE, Dave. Not a single one.

    According to the Wikipedia, ACORN has about 400,000 members. That’s more than the Navy had back in the 80’s when there were several spy scandals, the worst of which was when a senior chief and his son were arrested for spying and putting our entire submarine force at risk.

    I can personally attest there’s is crime and fraud perpetrated by some active duty members in the military (some of it organized) – and every year, this includes cases of murder. It’s not just the junior people, either – just a few years back, the most senior enlisted man in Naval Base Kitsap was arrested for trying to arrange a sex romp with a 12 year-old.

    And on cases not known to the public, the military does its level best to keep them from public knowledge (i.e. covers-up). Does this mean that our entire military is corrupt and should be fired for the danger it presents to our democracy? Of course not – but if we applied the same logic that you imply in your articles against ACORN, that’s precisely what we’d have to do.

    What’s the point? In EVERY large organization – including the Republican party, mind you – there are going to be some who are corrupt or even flatly evil. It doesn’t matter that one organization is military and one’s civilian. What matters is that every single one is comprised in its entirety by HUMAN BEINGS.

    That’s EVERY large organization, Dave. Why do you think I haven’t been posting anything recently about how this or that Republican’s dalliances or corruption is indicative of the party as a whole?

    But by your article, you ARE strongly implying that the corruption videotaped ARE indicative of the organization as a whole.

    “That one tree’s rotten, so the WHOLE forest must be rotten!” That’s your logic, Dave – because in all your rants against ACORN I have YET to see you give ANY credit for the times that ACORN has reported its own workers to the police.

    And BTW – I once gave you a challenge concerning ACORN: for every vote actually illegally cast due to those illegal voter registrations, I could show you a thousand voters who were wrongfully disenfranchised by Republican and conservative efforts. A thousand to one, Dave – care to take me up on that?

    No, you won’t – because if you do, you’ll be party in exposing the strawman you and the conservatives have made of ACORN.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You should be paid for that fantastic commercial for ACORN, Glenn. You did a splendid job attempting to put powder on a pig’s nose. You should mail that comment off to ACORN’s White House Office, at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

    I wanted to work for that outfit once. I wanted to be an activist, and get paid for it. But each time I went on an interview, my gut told me that this was a bunch of crooks, not a bunch of activists.

    You saw at two samples of that crooked and criminal mentality on display in Dave’s article. This was not a hatchet job – O’Keefe’s efforts might fall under entrapment, but this was definitely no hatchet job. You saw the true face of ACORN in Baltimore and DC. You saw the true face of “activism”, the likely face of ACORN’s grunts in Chicago as well as New York.

    But, rather than realize that this was the true face of ACORN, you have decided to wax wrathful with righteous indignation.

    That comment was worth at least $1,000. You really do deserve to get paid for your brilliant efforts.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Does this mean that our entire military is corrupt and should be fired for the danger it presents to…democracy?

    Yes, I think so.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    What matters is that…[most are] comprised in [their] entirety by HUMAN BEINGS who have been corrupted.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy,

    Does this mean that our entire military is corrupt and should be fired for the danger it presents….?

    No. It means you start your housecleaning at the top, because corruption tends to start at the top and seep downwards. This would be especially true of the police and military in Israel. This is likely true with ACORN. The leaders set the standards for the rank and file to follow – and the videos you saw demonstrated the extremely “high” standards the leaders set for the field offices.

    Of course, Cindy, when you argue with Glenn, you will find that he believes that corruption cannot really be rooted out – that you need to work with it.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Then I think I agree with Glenn. Corruption cannot be rooted out in a system that is designed to foster corruption.

    I don’t know what ‘housecleaning’ means. I’d think I’d have to be able to read people’s minds. Can you tell a child molester by looking at them? Doing a background check? Asking them questions? Deceit is part and parcel with corruption.

    But the military is a special case. It demands corruption before it can even fulfill a single task. That’s what it’s advertisements are aimed at. Enticing people to do something based on what change it effects in their self-image.

    You can be a man, a hero, a patriot–brave, tough. You can command sophisticated machinery. These are playing on a person’s self-image. They are offering to fulfill fantasies–not realities.

    Nowhere does anyone honestly assess the idea of killing other people in the military. That’s the last thing that’s wanted. It’s wanted rather to make it anything BUT what it is. To get people to kill other people by trying to say it’s something else.

    Call other humans ‘collateral damage’, dehumanize them in any way possible…they’re gooks, they’re not people.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave – do you remember your diatribes against ACORN’s voter registration fraud cases? Did you give ANY credit to ACORN for being the ones who blew the whistle on its workers in Nevada last year for fraudulent registrations? Did you give ANY credit to ACORN for turning in yet MORE workers in Florida for the same reason THIS VERY WEEK?

    No, Glenn. Because quite simply they only “turn in” their employees when the crimes become public knowledge, so they sacrifice the employees to create plausible deniability for the larger organization and to make themselves look good while short-stopping any deeper investigation.

    No. You linked to an article which gave ACORN NO credit for turning in its workers.

    Not only that, but I think that MORE guilt attaches to them for encouraging this behavior and then not standing by the employees who follow what is clearly organizational policy.

    In fact, the article falsely accuses ACORN of the “voter fraud” (a felony) and NOT “voter registration fraud” (usually a gross misdemeanor IIRC).

    The registration fraud enables the voter fraud which is the ultimate goal.

    If you had done your homework, Dave, you would have seen this quote in other references: “Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernández Rundle praised ACORN for its work exposing the fraudulent acts by some former employees. “We’ve been very aggressive about a lot of these cases,” she said. “But we would not have known about these workers unless ACORN brought it to us.”

    I’ll look into it, Glenn, but in past cases this has almost never been the case. When you look into it, ACORN is always on the brink of public exposure when they decide to cut their losses and take action.

    But your reply gave no such credit, did it? To you, it was just another excuse to attack ACORN…never mind that NOT ONE FRAUDULENT VOTE was cast due to those fraudulent voter registrations. NOT ONE, Dave. Not a single one.

    You have evidence of this, Glenn? Because lots of fraudulent votes HAVE been cast, and one of the reasons why it is possible is becauce of ACORN’s ongoing contamination of the voting registration records.

    What’s the point? In EVERY large organization – including the Republican party, mind you – there are going to be some who are corrupt or even flatly evil. It doesn’t matter that one organization is military and one’s civilian. What matters is that every single one is comprised in its entirety by HUMAN BEINGS.

    There’s something called “corporate culture” where the way the organization is run encourages certain behavior. In the case of ACORN that behavior is largely criminal.

    That’s EVERY large organization, Dave. Why do you think I haven’t been posting anything recently about how this or that Republican’s dalliances or corruption is indicative of the party as a whole?

    But certain types of corruption and misbehavior are clearly indicative of a particular culture of corruption in the Republican Party. No question about it. I would point to the ongoing problems with gay republicans getting into trouble as a good example. If the culture of the GOP were more accepting of their lifestyle then they would be less likely to get into compromising circumstances.

    But by your article, you ARE strongly implying that the corruption videotaped ARE indicative of the organization as a whole.

    Yes. The evidence is too great to ignore. Come on, Glenn. They paid people below minimum wage to work on “living wage” campaigns and hired crack addicts to canvass neighborhoods. You like the occasional hackneyed metaphor – how about “where there’s smoke, there’s fire?”

    “That one tree’s rotten, so the WHOLE forest must be rotten!” That’s your logic, Dave – because in all your rants against ACORN I have YET to see you give ANY credit for the times that ACORN has reported its own workers to the police.

    CYA is not a positive virtue.

    And BTW – I once gave you a challenge concerning ACORN: for every vote actually illegally cast due to those illegal voter registrations, I could show you a thousand voters who were wrongfully disenfranchised by Republican and conservative efforts. A thousand to one, Dave – care to take me up on that?

    And I can show you thousands of voters disenfranchised by Democrats and thousands more allowed to vote illegally, all having nothing to do with ACORN. None of that is relevant to this article.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    I’m getting tired of the SHOUTING…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy,

    You can be a man, a hero, a patriot–brave, tough. You can command sophisticated machinery. These are playing on a person’s self-image. They are offering to fulfill fantasies–not realities. Nowhere does anyone honestly assess the idea of killing other people in the military. That’s the last thing that’s wanted. It’s wanted rather to make it anything BUT what it is. To get people to kill other people by trying to say it’s something else. Call other humans ‘collateral damage’, dehumanize them in any way possible…they’re gooks, they’re not people

    All this is America and its military – be all that you can be, etc. There is no draft, no compulsory service. Thre hasn’t been since ‘Nam. The dishonesty in portraying the military as something other than organized killing comes from having to sell military service.

    Recruiters are liars, and more than one person has told me that about the American military.

    In Israel, it’s a whole different ball-game. Military service is a necessary evil – made necessary by the bloodlust of our Arab neighbors. But it is still an evil, and we all know that. Even in 1967, had I faced being drafted to fight in ‘Nam, which I knew was a losing proposition, I would have fled to Israel to get out of being sent there. At least I could believe in defending my home. Fighting so that America could get cheap aluminum was not “patriotic” in my eyes.

    I still believe in defending my home. But I’m in the ironic situation of having to be willing to defy an army I once admired. This is because the corruption is at the top; the traitors are at the top. The kids who do the fighting are my son and my neighbors’ sons. They are not the corruption – the commanders who lie to cover the asses of the traitorous politicians here are the corruption.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I understand now why you talked about corruption at the top. But, how could it be that the next ones would not be the same?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Clav, lol

  • Zedd

    I’m guessing that you just came to the awareness of ACORN when they came up during the election season.

    They have done a great deal of good for quite some time. There are crackpots and kooks in every company and organization. Lets not get all happy about ACORN. Take a breath. Do some research and come back with something worthwhile.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Of course, Cindy, when you argue with Glenn, you will find that he believes that corruption cannot really be rooted out – that you need to work with it.

    Ruvy, can you name even _one_ large human organization that does not have at least some level of corruption?

    No?

    Then one does what one can. There will be corruption that is _not_ found and will not be found. When corruption _is_ found, then prosecute it if you can; but of course such is not always possible…or prudent. However, if you do decide to expose the corruption, make sure you’re willing to pay the price. I learned that lesson the hard way, and came to realize that there are other ways to fight corruption rather than to only use the hammer of the legal system.

    This is the reality of humanity, Ruvy.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Because quite simply they only “turn in” their employees when the crimes become public knowledge, so they sacrifice the employees to create plausible deniability for the larger organization and to make themselves look good while short-stopping any deeper investigation.

    And your proof is…? Please give me some kind of real evidence, Dave. Last I recall, it’s innocent until proven guilty…and unless you present evidence of your claims, you’re presuming guilt before innocence.

    The registration fraud enables the voter fraud which is the ultimate goal.

    I’m still waiting for your proof, your hard evidence of that claim.

    When you look into it, ACORN is always on the brink of public exposure when they decide to cut their losses and take action.

    And your proof is…?

    Because lots of fraudulent votes HAVE been cast, and one of the reasons why it is possible is becauce of ACORN’s ongoing contamination of the voting registration records.

    I’m still waiting to see the smoking gun, Dave. All I see are your claims with nothing to back them up.

    Yes. The evidence is too great to ignore. Come on, Glenn. They paid people below minimum wage to work on “living wage” campaigns and hired crack addicts to canvass neighborhoods. You like the occasional hackneyed metaphor – how about “where there’s smoke, there’s fire?”

    I agree that when you pay poor people to work on commission, if they can find a way to defraud the system in order to get more money, some of them _will_ do so. The problem is, you’re making assumptions that this is part of a grand conspiracy…with no real evidence to back it up.

    And I can show you thousands of voters disenfranchised by Democrats and thousands more allowed to vote illegally, all having nothing to do with ACORN. None of that is relevant to this article.

    You say you can show me, so _do_ so. And my challenge to you _is_ relevant because it is used to show a pattern of erroneous assumptions on your part.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And lastly, out of order:

    You have evidence [of this voter registration fraud resulting in no voter fraud], Glenn?

    You’re trying to get me to prove a negative, and I’m not going to play that game. It is you who is making the assertion that such did lead to voter fraud, so the onus is upon you to positively prove your assertion. If you cannot do so, then that proves my own assertion.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    _See_, I do pay attention to what you say. ;)

  • zingzing

    to #36, what, dave, paranoid and hyperbolic? oh, never. this IS a conspiracy. we want hoookers! lots of them! tax-free hookers!

    the democratic party is the party of sexual slavery. (we’re going to lose the hooker vote, however. can you win the presidency without the hookers? i think NOT.)

    one day, when acorn rules the earth, i’m going to be dave’s pimp. and as a good communist, i’ll pimp him out to EVERYONE, as according to their need.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s outrageous.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    “This is the reality of humanity…”

    Why?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    That’s outrageous.

    It sure is, just look at all those capitals he used!

  • Zedd

    That’s outrageous

    It sure is. Eewwww who wants Dave?

    Sorry Clav. Eewwwww other than Clav, who wants Dave.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And Ruvy –

    The reason I’m defending ACORN is _not_ because I’m a big fan of theirs. I’m defending them because I hate false accusations.

    I once came a hair’s breadth from losing my Navy career due to a false accusation, and ever since then I’ve made a point of fighting against false accusations against anyone. If I saw a false accusation against Dick Cheney, I’d defend him.

    Now if you and Dave can somehow prove those accusations I’m disputing, I’ll support your side against ACORN…but so long as accusations are made against ACORN without evidence and against common sense, I’ll defend them.

    “Innocent until proven guilty” – there’s a reason why we have that tradition in our legal system, as imperfect as it certainly is.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Cindy –

    Why? Because of the great variations between the mindsets of any large group of human beings. In any large group of human beings, you’re going to have some that hold their own self-interest above that of others…and who are sometimes willing to even go to criminal lengths to get their way.

    That’s one reason why mass psychology is a much more exact science than individual psychology.

  • Clavos

    Clavos –

    _See_, I do pay attention to what you say. ;)

    Well, thank you Glenn, but I think you missed the point…

  • Clavos

    In any large group of human beings, you’re going to have some that hold their own self-interest above that of others…

    Some?

  • zingzing

    “Some?”

    point, clavos. but…

    “I think you missed the point…”

  • Clavos

    Not missed, zing, ignored.

  • zingzing

    shrug. how’s that any better?

  • Zedd

    zing,

    Pimp out someone else please.

    Stop pouting Clav.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    Yes, ‘some’. You see, I’ve come to believe that in many cases (or perhaps most), a man suspect of others what he himself would do in their situation.

    If this applied to you, then that would explain why you might suspect that most people put their own self-interest above that of others…and if this applies to me, perhaps that’s why I said ‘some’ and not ‘most’.

    But I can’t say that it applies to you – I am in no position to judge.

    But in any case, yes, ‘some’. Call it naivete if you like, but I believe that most people do the right thing if they can…it’s just that we usually don’t hear about it, whereas the news is eager to let us know the bad things that happen.

    Listen to Kenny Loggins’ “Dirty Laundry” – truer songs are rarely sung.

  • zingzing

    zedd: “zing, Pimp out someone else please.”

    no! dave is my bitch! mine! (and i have loyalty to my bitches. i’m a good pimp, i am.)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    45 Glenn

    If you look into the monkey cage, all you’re bound to see in there is monkeys.

  • Baronius

    One or two people conspiring to traffic in sex slaves shouldn’t soil the reputation of such a fine organization.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    Your obvious sarcasm is noted…so let’s look where your logic would lead: should the former GOP congressman from Tennessee who murdered his girlfriend soil the reputation of the Republican party as a whole?

    Or what about any of the other plethora of Republican scandals?

    When you’re getting ready to paint with a broad brush, be careful that the same logic doesn’t apply to those you support.

  • Clavos

    should the former GOP congressman from Tennessee who murdered his girlfriend soil the reputation of the Republican party as a whole?

    Not only on the GOP, but on everyone in Tennessee as well…

    And all Americans.

    Murderous Nazi SOBs.

    Your analogies are always amusing, Glenn.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “Not only on the GOP, but on everyone in Tennessee as well… And all Americans. Murderous Nazi SOBs.”

    and all humans! we all want to murder our significant others… don’t we? republicans, lead the charge! kilL! oh wait… let’s just save that for death row and the middle east. (we dems will take care of the babies. and the republicans.)

  • Clavos

    500,000,000!

  • zingzing

    500,000,000 what?

  • Clavos
  • zingzing

    woah. 500 million? far, far too late for that.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    So instead of discussing a particular point, you avoided serious discussion altogether and used sarcasm instead.

    You know what happens when you refuse to enter into serious discussion with those you oppose? You limit the possible outcomes to the present level at best…for the relationship can only go downhill from there.

    If you _do_ patiently and seriously discuss matters with those you oppose, then there is always the possibility you and your ‘opponent’ would be able to come to agreement on the issue.

    But if you refuse to discuss it, no agreement is possible. That was the error of ‘Bush diplomacy’, wherein he seemed to expect that the nations of the ‘Axis of Evil’ would meet all his conditions, and only then would he talk with them.

    Diplomacy – or any serious discussion between opposing viewpoints – doesn’t work that way. Please, Clavos, let’s discuss this as intelligent men such as you and me should.

  • Cannonshop

    Once is Phenomena
    Twice is Coincidence.

    ACORN better hope there’s not a Third in there.

    Huh…wait…there is a third. Nevermind.

  • zingzing

    glenn, call clavos a “wetback.” apparently, he loves it. just ask him. (he ran away from that discussion too.) he also highly suggests you call all your mexican friends “wetbacks,” because they don’t mind, in fact they’re proud of being “wetbacks.” if you don’t think so, you “don’t know shit.” like, culturally and shit.

    clavos is a strange, funny man. shrug.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    This is Part III of the post I made on the Black Conservate/Moderate Blog “Booker Rising” on this matter:

    “In a statement, ACORN Maryland board member Margaret Williams said the video was an attempt to smear ACORN, and that undercover teams attempted similar setups in at least three other ACORN offices. Police were called when undercover activists turned up at a Philadelphia ACORN office.

    O’Keefe seems to refute that claim on this website. Regarding a similar CNN report he wrote, “First CNN pushed the false ACORN line that ‘[t]his film crew tried to pull this sham at other offices and failed.'”

    STATEMENT OF STATE’S ATTORNEYS OFFICE FOR BALTIMORE CITY RELATIVE TO THE ALLEGED BALTIMORE ACORN INCIDENT

    “Baltimore, MD – September 11, 2009 – We have received inquiries from citizens and the media asking whether the Baltimore City State’s Attorneys Office would initiate a criminal investigation for acts allegedly committed at ACORN offices located in Baltimore. The only information received in reference to this alleged criminal behavior was a YouTube video. Upon review by this office, the video appears to be incomplete. In addition, the audio portion could possibly have been obtained in violation of Maryland Law, Annotated Code of Maryland Courts and Judicial Proceedings Article 10-402, which requires two party consent.

    If it is determined that the audio portion now being heard on YouTube was illegally obtained, it is also illegal under Maryland Law to willfully use or willfully disclose the content of said audio. The penalty for the unlawful interception, disclosure or use of it is a felony punishable up to 5 years.

    The Maryland state prosecutor’s office went after Linda Tripp in the 1990s on two wiretap charges. Tripp was accused of illegally taping a phone conversation with Monica Lewinsky about her relationship with then-President Bill Clinton and disclosing the conversation to Newsweek. Prosecutors decided to drop the case when Lewinsky’s testimony was suppressed.”

    Cobra’s Conclusion:

    At least two young White Conservative activists traveled across America this summer visiting ACORN buildings running a stereotype “pimps & hos” skit ala Borat/MTV Punk’d. They get nowhere in other cities until they get to Baltimore, where they find two part-time, seasonal people who, quite sadly, fall for the scam. They run back, edit the video and upload it, knowing full well that they have connections through Town Hall.com to get on talk radio and Fox News. With those right winged media ties, they conspire to time the release to be the day after President Obama clears the bases with his address to Congress, and Republican Joe Wilson makes an ass of himself in front of the world; they make the Fox News’ Prime time line-up LEAD STORY (on 9/11 of all days) to be the firing of 2 seasonal, part-time Black women in Baltimore’s ACORN office.

    The problem…which is why P.T. Barnum would be proud:

    Apparently the only people who may be prosecuted for this are Hannah Giles and James O’Keefe for possibly illegally recording these ACORN part-timers.

    After reading the arrogance, mean-spiritedness and IMHO bigotry beaming off of Hannah “watch-me-play-a-ho-named-Kenya-after-Obama’s-fathers-homeland” Giles, I couldn’t hope for a better result than for her to spend five years in prison right alongside the REAL street prostitutes, most of whom are desperate, abused women, she mocks on tape.

    Moreover, an addendum for this blog. Let me make this perfectly clear. I’m aghast that these two part time ACORN workers, one a receptionist, and the other a tax assistant, would act in the inexcusable manner depicted on the obviously edited You Tube clip. If the full, unedited video shows that weren’t simply playing along with these video instigators, then they certainly deserved to get fired, if not worse.
    My problem is that this fixation and consistant attacks on ACORN is IMHO, a thinly veiled attack on President Obama, who had the audacity to spend years of his young life trying to help the poor, downtrodden and disenfranchised in the inner city, sometimes with this organization.

    To give disproportionate coverage of two part time ACORN workers merely “talking about” criminal activity, while giving in comparison, as opposed to the coverage of Blackwater/XE the Mercenaries (founded by White Christian Conservative Son of a Billionaire, Erik Prince) US taxpayers shells out over a billion for…

    …you can easily understand my ire.

    –Cobra

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy, Glenn,

    I understand now why you talked about corruption at the top. But, how could it be that the next ones would not be the same?
    ——————————————————
    …if you and Dave can somehow prove those accusations I’m disputing, I’ll support your side against ACORN…but so long as accusations are made against ACORN without evidence and against common sense, I’ll defend them.

    I’ll answer you both in the same comment. It’s just easier.

    We do no know that the next leader at the top will not be corrupt For my proof, I go to the Bible, to the Second Book of Kings, which begins with the story of King Solomon. Other than Josiah and David, Solomon was Israel’s greatest king. He built the First Temple in alliance with Hiram, he set up a fleet at what is now Eilat, he subdued the enemy nations around the Kingdom of Israel and established a small empire. But he married a thousand women, and these women he allowed to sacrifice to foreign gods. He loved them, and built their temples for them too. Warned by G-d to cease, he refused. Thus he brought about the eventual fall of Israel – a fall that not even King Josiah’s piety and goodness could stop.

    So, all we can do is pray – and choose very carefully – realizing that until the Redemption, eventually, there will be corruption even at the top.

    This largely answers Glenn’s arguments- but his question above remains unanswered.

    So.

    The videos are evidence of corruption at the bottom, in more than one place. They are evidence, not the final proof. Proof must be decided by a jury of peers, or a judge, if that is what the jurisdiction calls for.

    The evidence calls for an investigation – of major proportions. I suggest, for the reasons I’ve given above, that the investigation start at the top, rather than concentrating on the bottom, as is likely to happen.

    The thickest item on Obama’s portfolio is his community work – with ACORN. ACORN has propelled its “graduate”, so to speak, into the White House. My healthy distrust of politicians – and my gut feelings when i had job interviews with these guys on a low level – tells me that the corruption in ACORN runs right through from top to bottom, and were it not for Obama’s victory last year, it would never even be noticed.

    But the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven always holds and is paramount in civil law.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    Looking at Cobra’s angry comment above made me remember something from when I went on job interviews with ACORN.

    You cited 400,000 members of the organization. If you look at the second Baltimore video, you see O’Keefe being asked to join ACORN, with annual dues of $120. These part time employees were not well trained enough in the most basic part of their job – recruiting members! For the most part, ACORN hires part-timers on a seasonal basis – it’s the cheapest form of labor they can get, aside from day-laborers.

    If you do the math, 400,000 dues paying members at $120 a pop per year comes to $48 million. That is the organization’s budget. The point is that ACORN does not have 400,000 employees, it has 400,000 members, with a small cadre of paid employees who recruit and motivate members to do the actions of ACORN. These are the “community organizers”, organizing ACORN’s base. Operating an organization on $48 million a year is operating on a shoestring when you consider the national scope of ACORN’s operations – this is why they fight so hard for federal funding – from any source….

    Consider:

    The non-profit I was a member of the board of in St. Paul had a budget of abour $50 million a year – and it just operated in St.Paul and the rest of Ramsey County!!

  • Arch Conservative

    The Acorn apologists on this post are acting as if this tape is the first piece of evidence against Acorn.

    That is a list of Acorn voter fraud cases that we know about.

    I see Acron’s standard defense is being used on this post by the defenders. Acorn has it’s people enguage in fraud and then cut them lose if they’re ever found out, claiming “well these are just a few bad apples in our great organization.”

    The only problem is that the examples of fraud are far too numerous and widespread for that defense to be believable.

  • Mark

    end…b?

    I don’t understand the call for balance here. What do investigations of ‘the other side’, blackwater, etc have to do with corruption in ACORN?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    What do investigations of ‘the other side’, blackwater, etc have to do with corruption in ACORN?

    Bingo, Mark! As we say in Hebrew, ein késher – there is no connection. Blackwater is a huge pustule of corruption – and from the looks of things ACORN is a pustule of corruption of a size yet to be determined.

  • Zedd

    If this applied to you, then that would explain why you might suspect that most people put their own self-interest above that of others…

    That was my thought precisely when I read the comment. Dave and Clav do that a lot, telling a lot about their own character.

  • Mark

    Clavos, 500,000,000

    Quoted for truth

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    You know all this back and forth about ACORN from the fringes on both sides is getting old. Those on the Far Right should shut their damn mouths and quit trying to tie every ACORN misstep to the Oval Office. Barack Obama is NOT ACORN. Nor is the GOP Christian or Right WIng. Currently the GOP is being held hostage like Americans were in Tehran back in the Carter Administration.

    To those on the Left, you also would do best to shut up by trying to throw up smokescreens to take attention away from ACORN. The truth is that a great deal of ACORN’s practices deserve the same scrutiny as you all demand of the Bush Administration.

    The bottom line is that all of us, regardless of ideology should not accept the scummy practices of fringe organizations. Their practices take our attention away from those issues which require real debate and reform. We’ve become seduced by media sensationalism and sound bites. We only worry about a singular thought of the day. The issues that confront this nation and the globe are not issues which can be reported, debated and solved within a 24 hour news cycle. We’ve got to stop listening to the pundits from FOX, NPR, EIB and MSNBC — and start TALKING amongst ourselves. Politicians from both parties are bought and paid for by special interests. Broadcast media is bought and paid for by advertisers who also happen to be special interests. Joe Scarborough is brought to us by Starbucks. Birthers, tea bag parties and bullshit are brought to us by FOX News and their Australian-born leader Rupert Murdoch. If I were you, Far Righters, I’d be more pissed off that a man who was NOT born in the United States rules the far right roost.

    Wake up, America.

  • Clavos

    clavos is a strange, funny man.

    Quoted for Truth.

  • Clavos

    You know what happens when you refuse to enter into serious discussion with those you oppose?

    Yes.

  • Clavos

    That was my thought precisely when I read the comment. Clav do[es] that a lot, telling a lot about [his] own character.

    As always, very perceptive, zedd.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Mark writes:

    “end…b?

    I don’t understand the call for balance here. What do investigations of ‘the other side’, blackwater, etc have to do with corruption in ACORN?”

    I’m not calling for “balance”. I’m saying, IMHO that the ACORN video, and subsequent racially tinged witch-hunt is a joke inspired by White conservative media outlets and right winged political activists to destroy an organization that aids the poor and disenfranchised because America had the temerity to elect a Black POTUS.
    It doesn’t need to receive the “same” coverage as REAL legal investigations/lawsuits against Blackwater/XE. IMHO, it’s not even a valid national news story.

    In my post, which nobody has refuted with facts, I point out that the only people who may be in legal trouble right now are the two White Conservative Political Operatives, Giles & O’Keefe.

    Silas, I agree with much of what you said, but with all do respect, this is not 1925.
    This is 2009. Minorities, especially those on the left no longer have to “shut up” and turn the other cheek when faced with reactionary conservative racially-motivated White activism, and hope that there’s some kind of “silent shame effect” that will influence the majority of Americans.

    In just a relatively few years, WE will be the majority of Americans.

    –Cobra

  • Baronius

    Cobra, I get the sense that you used to write manifestos for student radical groups in the 1960’s. There’s something unusual in both the style and the content.

  • Baronius

    Glenn, murdering your girlfriend isn’t part of the Republican agenda. I don’t know the case, but I assume the incident didn’t happen as part of his official duties. No one trained him in the GOP way of dealing with girlfriends; he wasn’t sitting at a desk as an expert in girlfriend relations; there was no one sitting next to him also murdering his girlfriend while exchanging advice.

  • Clavos

    In just a relatively few years, WE will be the majority of Americans.

    Good! Then YOU can take over paying for all the “entitlements.”

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Cobra:In just a relatively few years, WE will be the majority of Americans.

    Clavos: Good! Then YOU can take over paying for all the “entitlements.”

    Are you stating here for the record that only White people pay taxes in America?

    –Cobra

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    67 – Ruvy,

    There’s not an argument I can make that can address that idea you have about a non-corrupt leader. So, I’ll decline on that.

    I would like to say what I think as a pacifist about military solutions to anything. I can’t find the right words. So, ongoingly I will try in the future. I’ll just say, when I look at the big scheme of things, military actions seem very much the problem rather than the solution to any problem.

  • Clavos

    Are you stating here for the record that only White people pay taxes in America?

    I have never in my life “stated anything for the record,” Cobra. I don’t believe in anything strongly enough to do so.

    Nor was I saying that only white people pay taxes. However, as the majority (including the majority of the rich people, who collectively pay the majority of the tax revenues), it stands to reason (you have heard of “reason,” haven’t you Cobra?) that they pay the majority of the taxes, yes.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    How one group became “rich” in America as opposed to others is an entirely different thread in and of itself.

    Your statement didn’t allow for majority of tax revenues. You said:

    “Then YOU can take over paying for all the “entitlements.”

    Your words.

    Baronius,

    I actually take that as a compliment.

    Thank you.

    –Cobra

  • Ruvy

    Cindy,

    You may be right in your assertions – but the bottom line is this: if the other guy’s only “solution” to me is to kill me, then the only “solution” I can have to him is to kill him – before he succeeds.

    I know that stinks, but that is the way the world works. I’d much rather stand aside with my mouth open while G-d took care of the problem – and that may happen with the final Redemption, as it did when G-d parted the waters of the Red Sea while holding the Egyptians at bay. But till then, I gotta watch my own ass and pray that whatever I do, I’m doing because I’m on G-d’s side (notice I didn’t put the other way around – I’m not that arrogant).

  • Clavos

    “Then YOU can take over paying for all the “entitlements.”

    Correct. But since entitlements don’t consume ALL the tax revenues, there’s nothing wrong with the statement.

    Had I said you could take over paying for ALL government spending, you would have a legitimate beef.

    But I didn’t.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Clav, that was about as convincing as a soap actor trying to do Shakespeare.

    I’m disappointed.

  • zingzing

    so, as soon as white people aren’t the majority, they’re going to stop being rich as well? and the former minorities are suddenly going to get rich because they are now the majority? i am confused.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Hasn’t happened in Zimbabwe or South Africa, despite the strenuous efforts of some.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Arch-Con –

    I looked at your references – and you still seem to be guzzling that grape Kool-Aid like nobody’s business.

    All but four of those scandals were concerning voter registration fraud. Do you know the difference between “voter fraud” (a felony in all states) and “voter registration fraud” (a felony in NO states)?

    Apparently you don’t.

    So I’ll give you the SAME challenge I’ve given Dave Nalle: show me where ANY of these fraudulent voter registrations resulted in even ONE fraudulent vote?

    Even one?

    The rest of the challenge is this: for every fraudulent vote cast due to the voter registration fraud committed by what is a small minority of ACORN employees, I’ll show you a thousand voters who were wrongfully disenfranchised by Republican and conservative efforts.

    A thousand-to-one deal in your favor, Arch – will you go for it?

    One last thing – looking at the ENTIRE list of crimes committed by ACORN…did you notice the list is beginning in 1998? Seeing as how there’s fewer Republicans in government than ACORN has employees, if I post a list of crimes committed by Republican government office-holders (elected or appointed) since 1998…

    …which list will be longer – that of ACORN, or that of the Republican government office-holders?

    Jesus spoke of the hypocrisy of pointing out the mote in someone else’s eye when the accuser has a LOG in his own eye. That, Arch, is the hypocrisy of those who point the finger repeatedly at ACORN but never hold their own accountable for doing far worse.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    Okay…you want scandals that were part of policy? No problem!

    Look here at this list of American political scandals. It lists scandals of both parties…and the scandals overwhelmingly involved Republican lawmakers.

    I guess that’s why Republicans are so convinced that government’s the problem, that the government’s so corrupt…because since 1970, every time we’ve had a Republican administration the number of scandals has skyrocketed, particularly concerning the executive branch.

    No, you don’t like reading that…but that’s what the list show.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    It lists scandals of both parties…and the scandals overwhelmingly involved Republican lawmakers.

    I wouldn’t say overwhelmingly, Glenn. The most obvious thing about that list is that the vast majority of scandals in any given period tends to correspond with whoever happens to be in the White House at the time.

    I’d guess that the reason for this phenomenon is that the eye of the media focuses a lot more sharply on the party in power, rather than the opposition. Which is as it should be.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Interesting that you brought up Solomon – because every time I point out to a mainstream ‘Christian’ that Solomon may very well not be saved, the ‘Christians’ I tell this to become offended and defensive. For anyone who is curious, though, the last verse describing the life of Solomon (it’s in II Kings, IIRC) says that he forsook God and began building temples to the gods of his non-Hebrew wives…and then there’s another verse (can’t remember where it’s at right now) that is if you forsake God, He will forsake you.

    So things don’t look too good for Solomon…and to me, this is an important moral lesson: it does not matter how wise a man may be or may believe himself to be, but if he does not follow the will of God, he will go astray.

    But as to your other comments, as you said, the videos were taken in more than one place. Seven total employees out of three major cities, to be exact…

    …and for having seven bad employees (out of tens of thousands), you think that all of ACORN is corrupt?

    As I said, the only reason I’m defending ACORN is because I hate false accusations – and I’d defend even Dick Cheney if I thought he were falsely accused.

    Show me REAL proof that the corruption goes all the way to the top, that it’s as endemic as you believe, and I’ll join your chorus against them. Until then, I must stand against accusations that have not been proven.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    However, as exciting and entertaining as many modern political scandals are, for my money nothing, but nothing, tops this one:

    “Preston Brooks (D) Congressman from South Carolina burst onto the floor of the US Senate and beat Senator Charles Sumner (D) with a cane until he was bleeding and unconscious while two others held the Senate off at gun point. (1856)”

    The original PUMAs? :-D

  • Baronius

    Glenn, that’s not what I’m saying. You compared this scandal as a stain on the Democrats to a murder as a stain on the Republicans. I pointed out that such a comparison is invalid, because one goes to the heart of the party’s policies, and the other doesn’t. If you want to make a fair comparison, you could use maybe Blackwater or Halliburton. There are comparisons to be made. But the particular example you chose wasn’t apt.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dr. Dread –

    Yes, it is true that during any given presidency, there are more scandals involving those belonging to the same party as the president…

    BUT did you look at the overall numbers?

    Add up the total Democrats who were indicted during the Carter and Clinton administrations, and leave out the House banking scandal where House members (who were at the time mostly Democrat) were allowed to basically kite checks at will…and what do you get?

    By my count, eleven. Eleven, period.

    Whereas the Nixon, Reagan and Bush 43 administrations EACH exceeded that total. Bush 41’s administration was fairly clean…but that was also in the aftermath of Iran-Contra.

    So my point stands, Doc. Look at the numbers of the politicians of each party against whom charges were brought:

    Democrats from 1970-2009: 33
    Republicans from 1970-2009: 78

    Bear in mind, now, that while the Democrats only held the presidency for 12 out of those 39 years, the Republicans were only the majority in Congress for 12 out of those same 39 years.

    Yes, politicians are often corrupt…but the numbers show that the Republicans are corrupt more often than the Democrats. Whatever ‘logical error’ the BC conservatives may claim, that’s what the numbers show.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    You’re right, my example was not apt. I do appreciate the constructive criticism – and I always show gratitude towards those who prove me wrong on any point.

    Thanks –
    Glenn

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Cobra –

    Good posts, and well said.

  • zingzing

    “one goes to the heart of the party’s policies”

    i would think tax breaks for pimps and prostitutes would be more of a republican thing.

  • Ruvy

    Glenn,

    …and for having seven bad employees (out of tens of thousands), you think that all of ACORN is corrupt?

    You said that ACORN had 400,000 members – I’ll take you on faith on that number – can you provide a link that can give a reasonably accurate number of employees?

    According to their site, they have “400,000 member families organized into more than 1,200 neighborhood chapters in 110 cities across the country.” But the site is silent on the number of employees.

    Bear in mind that at $120 a family per year, that is an annual budget of $48 million. You can’t pay “tens of thousands” of employees across the country on that kind of money. If they have 1,200 chapters, figure two to three part-timers per chapter, with about 200 full-time organizers, and an administrative staff. That would be well within the reach of $48 million a year.

    Do the math. If they have 4,000 employees, they have a lot, probably too many. Now, seven part-timers out of 4,000 is only .2% of the total – but the point is that if this mentality is common to three offices, it came from somewhere – most likely from someone higher up in the organization.

    Now to get back to Solomon. I’m not done using him for an example. The wise king built pagan temples and planted asherá trees for his wives (and their children), thus erecting a class of pagans, and introducing an enormous amount of evil contaminating the land. And the Children of Israel, seeing their wise and just king doing this, followed suit.

    The evil comes from the top down. That’s why a people are held responsible for the sins of their rulers. So the investigation should proceed the same way sin proceeds – from the top down.

    This does no mean that all the employees of ACORN are corrupt, nor does it mean that they are guilty until proven innocent. But the wise thing to do is to proceed from the top down.

    You’ve already had a dose of how “justice” works under the Obama administration, though, Glenn. Americans still do not have the right of habeus corpus returned to them, but the “New Black Panthers” are virtually immune from prosecution – in spite of crimes they have been accused of in preventing voters from casting ballots.

  • Clavos

    “Hasn’t happened in Zimbabwe or South Africa, despite the strenuous efforts of some.”

    Good point Doc. I was ignoring that the US government is on a par with the Zimbabwean government. Possibly not even as efficient.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Glenn,

    FWIW, I (being the nerd that I am) added up the party affiliations of those involved in political scandals since 1860 – the year that the Republican Party first won the White House. I found that there were 136 Republicans involved in scandals and 90 Democrats. (31 had no identified affiliation.) In other words, 60% of the scandaleers with a known party affiliation were Republicans.

    Next I went back over the presidential administrations since 1860. I discovered that there had been a Republican president for 88 of those years and a Democratic president for 61 (including this one). In other words, a Republican has been in the White House 59% of the time.

    60% and 59% correlates pretty closely. Make of it what you will. I’m not saying that one or the other party is dirtier, only that it appears the dirty laundry of a given party tends to come to light more often when that party holds the White House.

    However you look at it, it’s hardly evidence of ‘overwhelming’ scandal-proneness on the part of the GOP.

    BTW, your cut-off point of 1970 is valid in some ways, but the reason I went all the way back to 1860 is that your argument hinges on corruption being part of the GOP’s culture. Whereas it actually seems to be part and parcel of politics, period!

  • kayla

    actually if you Google “ACORN” the top 5 posts are from FOX News. I’m not sure if this says more about FOX News’ insistence in covering the story or other media outlets’ denial of the story…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I don’t know either, Kayla, but it is interesting that Fox News has gone absolutely ballistic over the few recent scandals involving Democrats (Sandy Berger, Cynthia McKinney, William Jefferson etc) while either staying as quiet as possible or putting as positive a spin as possible on the GOP ones.

    Another curious little phenomenon is that when it becomes unavoidable for Fox to avoid covering GOP scandals, they have a habit of ‘mistakenly’ putting a (D) instead of an (R) after the scandaleer’s name on their chyrons.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doc –

    The reason I cut off my search at 1970 is that it was the first point at which the site began having more complete lists of the scandals – because when I saw that the ones prior to 1970 were relatively few in number when compared to the length of time covered, I knew that the list prior to 1970 had to be seriously lacking.

    That’s the main reason I felt the cutoff should be at 1970…but another reason is that Nixon was the first president after the ‘Goldwater revolution’ of conservative politics, and the beginning of the real transformation of the Democrats to a party that was proactive in civil rights.

    In other words, it was in the 1960’s that the two parties began to strongly diverge. Prior to then both were strongly conservative by today’s values. Another reason we can’t use the Democrats and Republicans of the 1800’s as part of the comparison is that their positions and platforms were largely reversed from today – the Republicans were all for civil rights, and the Democrats were the staunch Jim Crow conservatives.

    Anyway, that’s why I feel the 1970 cutoff date is proper.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doc!

    Now, now – you know that Fox News is fair and balanced. That’s why they feel it is only right to give the ‘birthers’ and the ‘tenthers’ and the ‘global warming deniers’ equal play.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Good reasons, Glenn, but I don’t see how a party’s position on civil rights has much, if anything, to do with its susceptibility to graft.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doc –

    In order to really believe in civil rights for all, one must have a rather altruistic sense of fairness…and I think that may well translate to a lower level of corruption – not ‘no’ corruption, but a lower level of it.

    I know that’s a bit of a nebulous answer – and almost certainly can’t be the whole answer – but how else are we to explain the disparities in the numbers?

  • Marcus L. L. L. Bingbong

    Intriguing piece of journalism, brings up a salient point. Makes me wonder if we should tax “thingy.”

  • Cannonshop

    #109 “Lower Level of Corruption”???

    Charles Rangel
    Barney frank
    Senator Dodd
    Secretary Geithner…

    yeah…right. whatever. Being a tax-cheat’s all american, so’s selling influence…then using your position to avoid the penalties every other citizen would face when you’re caught. I’m having a tough time finding sitting republicans who don’t pay their taxes, Glenn. Maybe you can help me with that?

    For that matter… which Repbublican left the scene of an accident involving drunk driving, thus killing one of his staffers again, and used his family AND political influence to get a pass on something that would be a felony for everyone else?

    Democrats and Republicans will prosecute Republicans for this kind of shit-but Democrats will NOT prosecute Democrats-they will protect them strenuously instead…as we’re seeing here.

    Loyalty to the Party exceeds loyalty to the Nation with Democrats. ALWAYS.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-shop –

    Since you’re blowing your top, here’s my reference, and check back to reply #97 – and to make it easy for you, here’s the pertinent paste:

    “Look at the overall numbers:

    Add up the total Democrats who were indicted during the Carter and Clinton administrations, and leave out the House banking scandal where House members (who were at the time mostly Democrat) were allowed to basically kite checks at will…and what do you get?

    By my count, eleven. Eleven, period.

    Whereas the Nixon, Reagan and Bush 43 administrations EACH exceeded that total. Bush 41’s administration was fairly clean…but that was also in the aftermath of Iran-Contra.

    So my point stands. Look at the numbers of the politicians of each party against whom charges were brought:

    Democrats from 1970-2009: 33
    Republicans from 1970-2009: 78

    Bear in mind, now, that while the Democrats only held the presidency for 12 out of those 39 years, the Republicans were only the majority in Congress for 12 out of those same 39 years.”

    C-shop, whatever ‘logical error’ you may claim, these are the numbers.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-shop –

    Loyalty to the Party exceeds loyalty to the Nation with Democrats. ALWAYS.

    That is a patently false statement. All you have to do to prove it false is to check the voting records of the congressmen who did NOT vote with the party – as in, have you ever heard of “blue dog Democrats”?

    C-shop, which party has earned the reputation of voting as a bloc? Not the Democrats. Not only that, but do I need to list for you the examples of Republicans who would persecute or even fire someone for not supporting the Republican party? Here’s two hints: one Republican had to resign for doing so, and a whole lot of others (in a different scandal) had a habit of claiming “I don’t recall” when asked about why nine attorneys general were fired.

    “Loyalty to the party above all” is a REPUBLICAN trait, C-shop. That, sir, is what the evidence shows. You will of course find SOME instances of it among the Democrats, but if you have the COURAGE to do so, then LOOK AT THE NUMBERS of legislators involved and you will see the great majority of the time, this is a trait that is MUCH more prevalent among the Republicans.

  • Clavos

    Clav, that was about as convincing as a soap actor trying to do Shakespeare.

    Why thank you, Doc. The acting skills in evidence on most soaps is often far superior to other venues, and many of today’s biggest (American) film stars got their start on soaps, including an American next-door neighbor of mine in Mexico, Justin Deas, who, like me, was a kid at the time we were neighbors.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The acting skills in evidence on most soaps is often far superior to other venues

    Um, no.

    Justin Deas

    Who?

    :-)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    but Democrats will NOT prosecute Democrats-they will protect them strenuously instead…

    Whatever happened to that nice Mr Blagojevich?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Gettingyourfactsstraight Nazi

    when asked about why nine attorneys general were fired

    Glenn, shouldn’t that be “why nine US attorneys were fired by the attorney general”?

  • Cannonshop

    Glenn, you referred to “Severity” in the post I was responding to.

    A republican cruising for a knob-job in a public bathroom known for gay hook-ups just doesn’t compare to not-paying-taxes-for-TEN YEARS while sitting on (and chairing at times) the Committee that writes the TAX LAWS, then getting a ‘pass’ when it’s revealed (a No-Interest pass at that!)

    Republicans that get caught don’t get PROMOTIONS or cabinet-slots. Dems do.

    116-Is he in jail yet? NO. He’s out only because he’s an electoral liability. (Pissed off Soros or someone, probably).

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Is he in jail yet? NO.

    Last I heard he was making a buttock of himself doing karaoke in some Chicago dive bar. That’s got to be worse than federal prison.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-Shop (and ‘Nazi’) –

    You obviously didn’t check out the list. You picked out two examples and tried to make your point with them, and made a sweeping statement using those two examples.

    That’s why I said it would take COURAGE for you to look at the whole list, of all the names and numbers – not just two.

    If I want to play your game, then how about the politicization of the Department of Justice (it wasn’t just firing the ones who wouldn’t prosecute or not prosecute in order to skew the 2004 election)? How about the White House force-feeding outright lies (see the “Downing Street memo”) to justify us starting a war that has cost us nearly a TRILLION dollars (and nearly 5000 American lives)…even though the war was strictly illegal by legally-binding treaty and international law?

    How about Watergate (which began as an attempt to skew America’s presidential election by stealing the other team’s playbook)? How about selling arms to Axis-of-Evil member Iran and using the proceeds to fund a civil war in another country?

    How many innocent people have died in Iraq and Nicaragua because of the efforts of Reagan and Bush 43? Yeah, I DO hold Kennedy responsible for Vietnam – he was the guy at the top and therefore responsible, even though McNamara and whoever it was that started the Gulf of Tonkin incident were the real villains.

    C-Shop, in the 40 years since the end of the LBJ presidency, the Democrats have done NOTHING on the order of any of these! NOTHING! We learned our lesson with Vietnam…but did Bush 43? He was too busy being AWOL from his ’boutique’ fighter squadron, Cheney got a deferment, and so did Republican pundits Limbaugh and O’Reilly. There’s a term for those who never served but are so damned eager to send other men into combat – you know that term, too, so I won’t mention it since Dave Nalle complained about it last time.

    And concerning the two instances above of attempts to skew elections, I think I can safely assume you hate ACORN too – so I’ll issue you the same challenge I’ve given Dave Nalle and Arch-Con: for every fraudulent vote actually cast due to the voter registration fraud (a misdemeanor not to be confused with the felony ‘voter fraud’) committed by a SMALL minority of ACORN workers, I’ll show you a thousand voters who were wrongfully disenfranchised by Republican and conservative efforts.

    That’s a thousand-to-one in YOUR favor, C-Shop…but so far neither Dave nor Archie have been able to show me even ONE fraudulent vote actually cast as a result of the voter registration fraud.

    Not one, C-Shop.

    In the BIG picture – not the example of TWO people you gave – the numbers, the history, and the provable FACTS are ALL against you.

    It takes courage to OBJECTIVELY check your assumptions against the big picture, C-Shop. Do you have that courage? Because fact-checking your assumptions is not much more difficult than grading a test.

    But grading a test might be pretty difficult when you find out that the answers you’ve believe for so long turned out to be false.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    ‘Nazi’ was just me, Glenn. Just as Clavos is BC’s self-appointed grammar Nazi, I’ve decided to be its resident factual integrity Nazi (at least for the next ten minutes).

    I was just trying to make you look good. After all, it would have been a memorable (for all the wrong reasons) president who managed to get through nine attorneys general… :-)

  • Clavos

    Doc,

    The acting skills in evidence on most soaps is often far superior to other venues

    Um, no.

    In your opinion. Most movie directors would disagree with you; they find a lot of good actors there.

    What do all the following actors have in common?

    Meg Ryan
    Julianne Moore
    Lindsey Lohan
    Jason Briggs
    Marisa Tomei
    Ryan Phillipe
    Kevin Bacon
    Kyra Sedgwick
    Demi Moore
    John Stamos
    JanineTurner
    David Hasselhoff
    Shemar Moore
    Luke Perry
    Anne Heche
    Halle Berry
    Alec Baldwin
    Gary Sinise
    Viveca A. Fox
    Hugh Jackman
    Guy Pearce
    Kylie Minogue
    Taye Diggs
    Sherry Springfield
    Melina Kanakaredes

    Yep, they all started in soaps.

    Justin Deas

    Who?

    I gave you a link, here’s another, but he’s one of the two or three top all-time daytime Emmy winners and has some very respectable live theater credits:

    Justin has played a wide range of Shakespearean roles, among them the Duke in Measure for Measure at Washington DC?s Folger Theater Center and Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet at Minneapolis’ Guthrie Theater. For the Dallas Shakespeare Festival, he had leading roles in A Comedy of Errors and The Tempest. He also appeared in New York City as Brutus in the Brooklyn Academy of Music production of Julius Caesar and in the title role in Hamlet at the Manhattan Theater Club.

    He was seen on Broadway in The November People, played Kenickie in the first national company of the hit musical Grease, and played the lead in the Seattle ACT production of Streamers. Justin has also acted off-Broadway in the world premiere of Beth Henley’s Pulitzer Prize-winning play, Crimes of the Heart.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “What do all the following actors have in common?”

    with a few notable exceptions (and those only occasionally throughout their careers), they’re all pretty bad?

    actually, i do like jullianne moore, marisa tomei, guy pearce, alec baldwin’s comedy and kylie minogue’s ass, but that list isn’t a shining example of quality actors.

  • Baronius

    There’s a new ACORN video. San Bernardino. That girl Hannah, she must be tired of all the creepy guys proposing to her online. I mean, she might be single. And proposing on the basis of looks alone would be weird, but she’s conservative, so I know that about her, and we probably agree on a lot of issues, and some of those immigration marriages are successful and they don’t have anything in common, so compared to them, Hannah and I are like a perfect match, right?

  • Baronius

    Not me and her. But her and someone she met online, maybe someone who’s like me, right?

  • zingzing

    what are you talking about, baronius?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doc –

    Oh. Thanks. Sorry, but at the time I was feeling pretty defensive. My emotions do sometimes ride high when I’m fighting for Truth, Justice, and the American Weigh….

  • zingzing

    t

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    By, the way, Glenn, the number of rotten acorns in ACORN seems to be going up with each video O’Keefe releases.

    These people condemn themselves on tape, and the particular willingness to support a pimp running underage girls from a foreign country so that he can run for congress, seems to be rather foreign to a group that purports to help the poor….

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zing –

    precisely.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    You know what? A GOP senator yesterday called for an investigation of ACORN – and I’m happy to see it.

    You know why? Because INVESTIGATIONS require EVIDENCE to proceed to indictment. If there is probable cause to proceed with an investigation, then by all means proceed and let the investigation end where it will.

    The sad part is this is just like the Clinton years. More money was spent investigating Clinton’s dalliances than was spent on investigating 9/11…like why Bush Sr. was in a meeting with the Bin Laden family on 9/10 – I really don’t suspect him at all, and I think it was just a coincidence…but add that to the fact that the Bush family has had close ties to the House of Saud since before WWI, and the fact that Bush’s grandpa supported the Nazis…

    And one wonders why it was SO crucial that we investigated Clinton then (and ACORN now) when we see these interesting things about the Bush family.

    Honestly, Ruvy, what do you think the conservatives would be doing if Obama’s dad had attended a meeting with the Bin Laden family on 9/10?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    …what do you think the conservatives would be doing if Obama’s dad had attended a meeting with the Bin Laden family on 9/10?

    Good question, Glenn. Ask them. I’m a socialist, not a conservative.

  • Zedd

    Oh no Doc has gone and changed into an American. Sigh….

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    So when do we get the follow-up article now that some results are coming in?