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A Mosque in New York: A Test of Our Mettle

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On its surface, it seems obvious. Who would support the construction of an Islamic cultural center on the ground where Islamic extremists committed mass murder? But it’s not obvious—not at all.

If we dictate who may or may not build a religious center on a piece of land, wherever it is; if we dictate who may worship where, the very foundations of what makes us unique as a nation begin to unravel. The Constitution begins to unravel. Religious freedom is, perhaps, the most fundamental of our freedoms in this great nation. Generations of immigrants traveled over seas and land, sweated and died to find religious freedom here. And so many have died to protect those freedoms. The true test of our mettle as a society is not how we act when it’s easy to wrap ourselves in the Constitution; it’s how we act as a people when it’s not.

I’m going to avoid the issue of whether the group might have chosen a different location or a better location because it’s really beside the point. And if opposition to mosque construction was restricted exclusively to Lower Manhattan, it might be worth arguing. But there has been a frightening rise in vigorous (and sometimes very nasty) opposition to the construction of mosques across the country: from Tennessee to Wisconsin to California.

I was a teenager growing up in Skokie, Illinois when the American Nazi party intentionally staged a march right through the heart of our village—a community in which numerous Holocaust survivors had settled. There was a huge controversy—a national controversy about whether or not to allow them to so disrupt and inflict emotional harm on the survivors and their families with displays of swastikas and much more.

I remember my parents’ reaction that we had no choice as a society: we had to allow the march. It was what our nation stood for—freedom of speech. That march was an intentional and malicious attempt to test the first amendment while being as menacing as possible to people who had been through many horrors at the hand of Nazis.

I am not comparing the construction of the proposed Islamic center to the Skokie Nazi march. They are not really analogous except that both test whether our embracing of the Constitution is mere lip service or real belief. It’s not always easy to be patriotic. It takes more than xenophobic flag waving and an “Us vs. Them” attitude.

The construction of the proposed Islamic center makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. What’s next? Will the construction of all religious centers be banned there, or just Muslim centers? Successfully prevent this Islamic center on “sensitivity” grounds (or whatever that term euphemistically represents) and the next prevented religious center may be yours. Or mine. ‘Nuff said.

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About Barbara Barnett

Barbara Barnett is Publisher/Executive Editor of Blogcritics, (blogcritics.org). Her debut novel, called "Anne Rice meets Michael Crichton," The Apothecary's Curse The Apothecary's Curse comes out October 11 from Pyr, an imprint of Prometheus Books. Her book on the TV series House, M.D., Chasing Zebras is a quintessential guide to the themes, characters and episodes of the hit show. Barnett is an accomplished speaker, an annual favorite at MENSA's HalloWEEM convention, where she has spoken to standing room crowds on subjects as diverse as "The Byronic Hero in Pop Culture," "The Many Faces of Sherlock Holmes," "The Hidden History of Science Fiction," and "Our Passion for Disaster (Movies)."
  • If we dictate who may or may not build a religious center on a piece of land … the very foundations of what makes us unique as a nation begin to unravel.

    If by “we” you mean local government, municipalities have long dictated who may build on a particular property. When communities objected because porno shops were sprouting next to schools, public officials revised zoning laws to create “combat zones” where sleaze parlors could operate legally; elsewhere in that town or city, such businesses were banned. Municipalities routinely segregate commercial districts from residential neighborhoods. This has been going on for decades, and while the very foundations of what makes us unique as a nation may have unraveled some during that period, nobody is blaming it on the fact that strip clubs are disallowed next to grammar schools.

    Fact is, certain types of enterprises are inappropriate in particular places. A scant nine years ago, Muslim fundamentalists–no doubt muttering “Allahu Akbar”–took 2,750 souls from this earth at Ground Zero. Now we’re debating whether or not a brand spanking new Islamic center belongs in that neighborhood. For all your alarmism, I honestly don’t see how banning the damned thing is likely to unravel anything. Just seems like common decency for it to be built elsewhere.

  • Ugly, opportunistic demagoguery: in other words, American politics at its worst.

    The GOP exploits shamelessly, and the Dems cower pathetically. It’s nauseating.

  • Handyguy–I think the Dems pathetically cowering bugs me even more than the GOP’s exploiting.

  • The tabloid-style news coverage of this and of the “change the 14th Amendment” rhetoric bring out an ugly animosity in some Americans, and it seems to be drawing on ethnic and religious prejudice.

    Some Dems are calling both bits of nonsense out for what they are. But in an election season that already had them nervous, it doesn’t take much for some others to run for the hills.

  • Zedd

    #3 Agreed!

    More so, it always baffles me that a nation that was concieved by Christian slave owners who had the blood of 10 million souls who ended up on the bottom of the ocean and the murder of more millions of the natives of this land on their hands, can be so judgemental

  • zingzing

    col kurtz: “Just seems like common decency for it to be built elsewhere.”

    yay! i can disagree with kurtz politically.

    it seems like the american ideal to allow it to be built wherever the space is. at this point, and after all this debate, if that islamic community center (not mosque, because that’s not all it is) fails to be built where it is planned, it becomes a symbol of america and the west’s hatred towards islam. it proves to them that we hate them. if it goes as planned, it will show them that we accept their religious freedom and want peace between our peoples. it’s a great step towards making a lasting peace.

    if i had my way, the thing would sit right on top of ground zero. it would take the hatred that spawned that attack and totally reverse it. it would be a point of conciliation. if once that spot was the target of religious/political hatred, now make it the spot where that hatred can be taken apart. terrorism can’t win that. neither christianity or islam wins either. we all win in that situation.

    the protest against this is just another symptom of the sickness of the “war on terror” or whatever we call this. if you don’t want this to happen, you are against free speech and freedom of religion and all sorts of things that america stands for. it’s time to prove that america is actually the country it claims to be, not just a pseudo-christian warmongering hate-filled backwater.

  • zingzing

    “we all win in that situation.”

    except the terrorists, of course.

  • if that islamic community center (not mosque, because that’s not all it is) fails to be built where it is planned, it becomes a symbol of america and the west’s hatred towards islam. it proves to them that we hate them.

    Exactly. I do hate Islam. And I’m not alone. Until you change our minds, you can indeed build that monstrosity “right on top of ground zero,” but you’ll accomplish nothing except to intensify our hatred. And if you do jam it down our throats, how long to you think it’ll stand? Both sides have fanatics who can play the demolition card. I’m not advocating that, but you know as well as I do it could happen. Why create such needless provocation?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Yeah, but you pretty much hate everything. Hardly an example of “our minds” at work, but the thinly veiled “how long do you think the mosque will stand” threat is probably pretty accurate among your ilk. You live to rile up others, however you can accomplish it, and then spend the rest of your time forming some sort of cowardly rationalization for your abhorrent, hateful behaviour. And history tells us that it isn’t a very long step from that to violence, is it?

    The hatred celebrated by individuals like Kurtz here probably would lead to vandalism and violence directed at the mosque, such is the West’s general attitude towards Islam and Arabs in general. And blind hatred based on generalizations doesn’t change, either, so there’ll be no “changing of hearts and minds.” Alan isn’t suddenly going to see a charming film on Islam and weep elephant tears.

    “Why create such a needless provocation?” Because those who aren’t crippled by fear and paranoia have to start somewhere to prove that hatred isn’t the dominant line of thinking in America.

  • I don’t see how a Canadian has any say in this one way or the other.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I know it’s hard to understand Alan, but there’s a little box here that I write my comment into. I hit “Post Comment” and, amazing I know, I get a “say.”

    As to whether I have a say in “the facility at Ground Zero,” I don’t. Neither do you.

  • Well, for that matter then, neither does Barbara Barnett, the author of this article, whose dateline is Chicago, Illinois. handyguy lives in NYC, so he gets a say. I don’t know where Zedd hails from, and I frankly doubt that zingzing exists. So apart from handy, we’re all just blowing smoke.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Of course we’re all blowing smoke, Alan. We’re sharing our opinions and discussing various issues. How meaningful any of this is in any practical sense is entirely relative.

    I’m not really sure what you’re on about, but, uh, enjoy yourself.

  • STM

    Al: “I don’t see how a Canadian has any say in this one way or the other.”


    True … but then nor do you in any meaningful way.

    And he’s got as much right as you to his opinion, which is all he’s offering.

    Or do you still not get that?

  • I don’t think he’s gotten over the fact that women have opinions.

  • Looks like this discussion is moot anyhow. CNN is now reporting that New York Gov. David Paterson plans to meet later this week with leaders planning the Islamic center and mosque “to discuss plans to move to an alternate site,” which is just what I suggested in comment #1. It truly is the only sensible solution.

  • STM,

    Did you see all of the coal links on, The British Experiment thread?

    : ) Morning or should I say,G-Day?

  • Alan,

    If you don’t live in NYC then no opinion for you! isn’t this the jist of you on this thread?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Interesting article here from Joshua Holland. It’s called “Why America Needs More Muslims” and it’s a damn fine read.

    Quotation: “Absent personal interactions with adherents of another faith, many people have nothing to go on but media-driven stereotypes.”

  • Corey May

    Mr. Kurtz – The comparison of zoning regulations preventing pornography stores and gun shops from operating next to schools to using the same to prevent a religious building from operating in a particular location (where it would otherwise comply with the then existing zoning regulations) is inept. There are many constitutionally based limits on the exercise of the power of the state to limit the ways in which personal property can be operated. These limits, in large part, are based on the first amendment and equal protection clauses of the constitution, i.e., the zoning regulations cannot be based exclusively on content (unless obscenity standards are met, which are detailed by our illustrious Supreme Court), nor can they be discriminatory. A change in or use of zoning regulations to prevent the construction of a religious building solely because of the religion to be housed in the building would be anti-American and unconstitutional. You can’t get around this. To ban the prayer center in the name of protecting American ideals is oxymoronic.

  • zingzing

    alan: “I do hate Islam.”

    all of it? why? that’s a waste of time. hope you have no fun with that.

    “Until you change our minds”

    you “hate islam” and you can’t abide the idea of a community center dedicated to creating an interfaith dialogue… sadly, it’s not islam that will change your minds. it’ll have to be you.

    it’s a stupid useless war with terrorists on one side and fucking idiots on another. you must be having fun with this war to be going on the way you do.

    “handyguy lives in NYC, so he gets a say. I don’t know where Zedd hails from, and I frankly doubt that zingzing exists. So apart from handy, we’re all just blowing smoke.”

    i live in nyc. yay! i get a say… psh. if you don’t think you have a say in this, you know what you can do.

  • zingzing

    “Looks like this discussion is moot anyhow. CNN is now reporting that New York Gov. David Paterson plans to meet later this week…”

    that happened last week and they rejected the idea then. where have you been on this?

    “It truly is the only sensible solution.”

    well, as we known your idea of “sensible” is hating every last one of them, i’m not sure it’s best to let you decide what is or isn’t sensible in this situation.

  • Baronius

    I’ll agree with Alan this much: it does seem like common courtesy to build it elsewhere. There’s no legal reason they can’t build it there, but it’s unnecessarily provocative.

  • Though I don’t live in New York nor care whether Alan thinks I get a say, how is four blocks away the same thing as “the ground where Islamic extremists committed mass murder”?

  • It’s provocative only to people who, like Alan, “hate Islam.” The religion did not blow up the World Trade Center. The moderate groups behind the center had no provocative intentions. The “provocation” resides entirely within bigoted minds.

    [And have any of you ever visited lower Manhattan? Buildings that are “only 2 or 3 blocks away” may as well be in the next county, certainly not visible to each other…this building would be separated by concrete canyons from the memorial site. All of this is based on ignorance and prejudice. Period.]

  • zingzing

    baronius: “it does seem like common courtesy to build it elsewhere.”

    it also seems anti-american to deny their freedom of religion. this argument really shows just how easily the right wing will forget about the constitution in order to get their way. it’s all about freedom, eh? or is it about your feelings?

    as someone pointed out in another article about this subject here on bc, it would seem like the right would applaud the fact that a moderate islamic organization is taking a stand for peace and understanding and against hatred. but “not like this, not like this,” they say. you blindly deny that moderate islam ever speaks up, then when they blatantly do so, you try to quash it.

    the right wing is seemingly getting to be just as bad as the islamic terrorist groups. there is nothing islam can do to appease them, as the only end the right wing can see is the destruction of islam. unless they start proving me wrong, the evidence is continuing to pile up… it’s hard not to think it true.

  • Baronius

    Zing and Handy – Can you really not see why I sometimes confuse the two of you?

    I thought I made the distinction clear between the legality and the appropriateness of the building. I’m not denying the Constitution. That’s a cheap shot. Also, I don’t know what you think the right wing is saying, but I’m hearing a full range of views from the right.

    The analysis that won me over came from Charles Krauthammer. He wrote about the similarity between this situation and the convent located at Auschwitz. A few years back, Jewish groups complained after some Carmelite sisters moved into a house at the former site of the camp. It was perfectly legal for them to be there, and I personally don’t see what the offense was, but out of respect, John Paul II ordered them to relocate. It’s not about the law; it’s about decorum.

  • This is artificially constructed “decorum.” Many of the loudest voices in the argument know little or nothing about New York [or, apparently, about Islam].

    PS: An Easy Hint:
    zing does not use capitalization.
    I Do.

  • And to emphasize a point that doesn’t seem to sink in easily to non-New Yorkers: The proposed cultural center may be “in the neighborhood,” but it is certainly not “on the site.” Without the ginned-up controversy, visitors to the memorial, once it’s completed, would never know the cultural center is there.

    When Newt Gingrich and Charles Krauthammer drag out the Nazi comparisons, anyone with any sense should run the other direction.

  • zingzing

    “It’s not about the law; it’s about decorum.”

    of course it’s not about the law. no one can deny their legal right. it is, however, still about religious freedom. you want to deny it simply because it’s an islamic thing. if it was a church, there’d be no problem. if it was a mcdonalds pumping fat into your veins, fine. if it was a gas station pumping saudi gas, it’d be ok. but this? no…

    all of america has called for moderate islam to take a strong stance against the actions of radical islamic terrorists on 9/11. and when they do, the haters out there still call foul. the thing is a respectful distance away, yet close enough that the power of its message reaches to the center of the problems islam and america have. if i put you down at ground zero, you’d have no clue how to get there, and you couldn’t see the thing. you could, however, see the porn shop. ain’t america great?

  • Ruvy

    Muslims are not building a mosque. The Wahhabi are building a victory monument, not dissimilar to the arch in Rome commemorating the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple 1,940 years ago. They can call it whatever they want, but those of us who know something about Islam know better.

    The project to build this building is called the “Cordoba Project” and is proposed by a fellow with ties to the Egyptian Brotherhood, the Wahhabi who rule in Arabia, and of all interesting folks, Hamas. And the folks at Hamas demand that the only place this “mosque” can be is near the site of what was once the WTC. These people are all heretics to Islam, not Moslems at all. But, since the Wahhabi own and control Makka and Medina, and pay for thousands of madrassas world wide to teach the lies of the Wahhabi, and have militant Arabs who will kill anyone who says otherwise to silence people, everyone calls the Wahhabi “Muslim”.

    The Cordoba Project is named after the city of Córdoba, a city conquered by Muslims 1,300 years ago in Iberia. And in this fine city, many Christians were massacred, and the churches (most of the main ones, anyway) became mosques. Muslims build mosques where they have won a victory; the Wahhabi, having won a victory by knocking down the WTC, want to piss on Americans by building a “mosque” – really a victory monument – right near where the WTC used to stand in New York.

    Romans at least had the class to stick their victory monument over Judea in Rome. The Wahhabi are sticking their victory monument right in the faces of the survivors of their treacherous attack on my 50th birthday (by the Christian calendar). They are sticking it right in New York City – where I was born and raised.

    You Americans, particularly you New Yorkers, can stand on your hind legs and let the world know that nobody pisses in your faces – no matter what some suit in the White House says. Or you can take your pocket constitutions, recite the First Amendment a few times and hope it still applies to you when the Wahhabi start shoving Sharia down your throats. The choice is yours.

    Finally, I do understand where Barbara comes from. I understand with my gut. That is why, when I was young and had hair, energy and more strength, I hung out with the Jewish Defense League. Because, the solution I proposed to all of you was one I followed. I stood up my hind legs and was willing to fight – as in break heads – for the honor of my people.

    Boy, am I glad I moved to Israel!

  • I have a strange feeling of déjà vu.

  • zingzing

    where’s the spam catcher when you need it?

  • Baronius

    HANDY – I can generally spot the difference between you and Zing by looking at the names on the comment. Sometimes I slip up. Nothing personal.

    What’s wrong with Krauthammer’s example?

  • Ruvy

    Whattsa matta, zing? Opinions you don’t like – from native New Yorkers – are spam? How LIBERAL of you!

  • zingzing

    no, the same message littered all over is spam. it’s fine once, but there’s no need to post the exact same message everywhere. you made your point already.

    you know as well as i do what point i was making, so don’t try and make up shit.

  • Ruvy

    Rubbing your nose in the truth is not spam. It’s driving a point home. I modified the comment to make it relevant to what Barbara actually said – as well as to Alan Kurtz’ comments about who had the right to comment on all this. Finally, I would not recommend to you what I had not already done and was willing to do myself. There are too many chicken hawks running around who get mad over stuff like this. I’m not one of them.

    As Alan pointed out, a structure that can be built can be blown up. Terrorism is a two way street, and a free enterprise industry. The Wahhabi, who have made Americans (not to mention Israelis, Pashtuns, Spaniards, Brits, Australians, Iraqis and a whole bunch of others) die and cry need a good dose of what they hand out. They need to learn how to die – and cry – from grief, not anger.

  • zingzing

    well, if you modified it (i only got through the first few lines before i didn’t want to read the same thing twice), then i apologize and take it back.

    don’t get all silly now. you wouldn’t want to read the same thing twice either. i’d bet that by repeating so much of your original comment, the modifications that you did make will be missed by many people.

    as for your “terrorism is a two way street,” that’s true, but we’ve already killed plenty more of their people than they have of ours. we’ve responded in kind already. we’ve already given them “a good dose,” and then some.

    by doing so, we’ve only prolonged this shit. time for a different approach.

  • Baronius

    Zing, you’re missing the point. If we kill more of them, G-d will like us more.


  • zingzing

    no, no baronius, you’ve got it backwards. if we kill more of them, it proves that god is on our side. it was “god’s will,” remember?

  • Ruvy

    And if the Wahhabi gang-rape your women, perform honor killings, produce the kinds of no-go zones in your cities they have introduced all over Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany, France and England AND YOU ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN, what does it say about you as a people defending your culture and way of life?

    To me it says you haven’t got the guts to, you no longer understand that the tree of liberty is watered with the blood of those who defend their homes, and a whole lot of other nasty things about you that you do not want to hear.

    So go stuff your ears up. Stick your heads in the sand. Recite your constitutions and self-righteously proclaim that those who want to kill you have every right to celebrate their having done so.

    Have a goyisher good time! And see what it gets you in the end – and I do mean that literally.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, if we want to live in fear, we’ve always got you for a vicarious horror show. to always live in such terror would drive one insane…

  • Baronius

    You’re wrong, Zing. To Ruvy, if more Jews die, he’s right, and if more Muslims die, he’s right. He doesn’t have to wait to find out if G-d’s on his side. His G-d handed down a book of laws, and it only had one law worth talking about: the Holy Land belongs to Ruvy and his brothers. This G-d isn’t served with hearts or minds, only with knives. 3500 years of reading the same book, and he doesn’t even know what it’s about.

  • Zedd


    Based on your logic….

    As a White human in these United States, what are YOU doing or not doing to show that you feel bad for something that was done by people that you don’t know to people that you don’t know AND don’t have a beef with but may or may not share a genetic similarity with; who held attitudes that you probably abhor and cheated, abused and killed millions and their off spring for generations?

    How are you demonstrating your sensitivity to Native Americans and African Americans in your transactions through life?

    I await your thoughtful, deep, and motivating response. It could serve as a lesson for healing the racial divide nation wide.

    You have the floor. Go!

  • The Golden Age of harmony amonc Christians, Jews & Muslibs also orrucced durinc the Caliphate of Cordoba. Anytdinc might happen in this buildinc.

  • Ruvy

    Well, Baronius, I see you were intelligent enough not to respond to Zedd’s baiting you with her race card….

    But your comment #43 was rather rich. Considering that you Catholics have been crapping all over Jews for 17 centuries, making it an utter necessity to have and maintain a refuge against you, and considering that your spiritual boss, the Bishop of Rome, sides with our enemies in wanting to kick us out of our homeland, I believe there is the matter of the “pound of flesh” you owe us.

    Let me put it to you this way. Were the trigger in my control, the first target would not be Tehran (which is what it should be). It would be the Vatican, just to teach you Catholics that shitting all over the Children of Israel was the wrong thing to do for 17 centuries. Nuclear smoke would teach you a great deal you need to learn.

  • Baronius

    I believe that the US is at a point of dangerous fixation on race, the kind that can spill over into a new cycle of racism on all sides. At such a moment, it seems to me the best thing to do is to avoid paying race any attention at all. If a particular case seems egregious, then sensitivity is prudent. I’m thinking like a “Trail of Tears Fun Run”. In most cases, insensitivity is the wiser course.

  • Good quote, Jordan

    “Absent personal interactions with adherents of another faith, many people have nothing to go on but media-driven stereotypes.”

  • Baronius

    Ruvy illustrates the pathology of racial revenge. If we as a society try really hard, we can all end up sounding like him. In fact, we may end up that way unless we try really hard not to.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, you know you’re totally insane, right? someone should really compile a good list of your most violent, hateful, blood-curdling, idiotic, bigoted, paranoid, genocidal, hypocritical and silly comments. to avoid any accusations that it’s a “personal attack,” they could be run without commentary and presented as they stand. they could be broken up into subjects, like nuclear annihilation of thine enemies, conspiracy theories, torah codes, jew-hatred, world net daily citations, etc, etc.

    it’s a big project… it may be too much for one person. we may have to form a team and spend a few months working at it. of course, by then, you’ll generate another few hundred little nasties. maybe a series? with updates? maybe it’s own website… or a twitter feed–“shit ruvy says” or something like that. maybe they’d make a television series. the internet’s own archie bunker.

    (actually, this could be a money-making proposition for us all. let’s conference.)

  • zingzing

    hrm. maybe i should have kept that to myself… too late, it’s out there.

  • doug m

    Someone needs to secure the straps on ruvy’s straitjacket.

  • Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

    26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

    27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

    28 then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

    29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

    30 for mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
    31 which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

    32 a light to lighten the Gentiles,
    and the glory of thy people Israel.

  • #53 was cut & lasted. 🙂 I thinj I can turn off Dvorak to sreak glearly.

  • Ruvy, #45 was for you. What do you think?

  • #53 was for Christians.

  • And so is this. The Jews ARE a chosen people, if you believe this, you believe Jesus is “the glory of the people Israel.”

    They don’t act like the chosen people sometimes, and the U.S. shouldn’t be letting AIPAC lead them around by the nose, but the fact is the Jews, according to the Bible, were,are, and will be the chosen people.

    And Christians–Catholics AND Protestants– have “grieved” and “quenched” the Holy Spirit. And Rumi the Sufi poet of peace, at whose funeral Jews, Christians, and Muslims ALL mourned, would absolutely be rolling in his grave at what he sees some Muslims doing.

    European (white) Gentiles, and African (black) Gentiles are not the only Gentiles for which the promise in 30-32 was made. There are at this very hour, people from radical Muslim communities who are having supernatural dreams of Jesus, and living their lives after him, letting them be their Lord and salvation, who are NOT taking on the culturally loaded name of “Christian.” Same with Messianic Jewish believers.

    I have high hopes for this “mosque” YMCA, YCMMJA…whatever it may turn out to be.

    Now, I will…siut up & listen 2 you-all.

  • Zedd


    “In most cases, insensitivity is the wiser course”

    Then you should apply your detached attitude to your poorly considered fixation and move on.

  • Ruvy


    You needed to slow down your typing a bit. I barely understood what you wrote.

    From my reading of history, the Caliphate of Cordova was not the “golden age” it has been purveyed to be. Fool’s gold might be more of a better term. Living as a second class citizen anywhere is not a fun experience. Zedd, who is a Zulu who lived in South Africa during the apartheid years, can confirm that statement for you. Jews and Christians were all second class citizens in el-Andalus and had to watch their “p’s” and “q’s” – or whatever the Arabic equivalents are – very carefully if they expected to live.

  • Zedd


    No one was race baiting. You’ve been gone for a really long time- its not the 80’s (AND you are really wacky), so you missed it.

    I was logic baiting. He fell into it. Did you miss it? More than likely he did too.

  • Baronius

    Zedd, what do you mean?

  • Zedd


    Does your Bible tell you what the Jews are chosen FOR?

    According to what I read, its to demonstrate just how fickle and ungrateful humanity is. They kept making the same mistakes over and over again then asking God to bail them out. God kept punishing them over and over again for being bratty knuckle heads.

    So moral of the story…. A hard head makes a soft behind Ruvy. We get it. Thank YOU for displaying that to all of us, with every post you make. You’ve demonstrated the usefulness of your being chosen. NEXT.

  • Zedd


    You are saying “let it go”. I am saying that to you. “Let it go”.

  • Ruvy

    I gave Baronius just a small dose of the contempt Catholics have heaped on Jews for centuries – and he couldn’t take it! Ruvy illustrates the pathology of racial revenge.

    What the Catholics actually DID to the Jews for 17 centuries – take racial revenge – is what he accused me of. We’re entitled to racial revenge. And what the lot of you have a hard time with is a Jew who tells you to your faces that we are entitled to racial revenge for the shit you’ve made Jews go through for 17 centuries.

    That’s just too bad. It is a message you NEED to hear. Before some Jewish leader actually does haul off and slake the Jewish thirst for vengeance. Believe me, it is there.

    But the other message you NEED to hear is that the Wahhabi WILL take racial vengeance on you and kill you – and regard themselves as thoroughly justified in doing so. If you Americans are stupid enough to let these “people” build their victory monument on YOUR land, their efforts to subdue you and strip you of your liberties will be redoubled. And if they succeed, life will be a nightmare for the majority of you. You will discover exactly what the “golden age” of el-Andalus was all about. And you will deserve your suffering.

  • Ruvy re:#59 re:#45, I am learninc the Dvorak keyboard — long story — see convo vith STM- at end of comments on Alan Kurtz’ recent article “BC without cobbents.”

  • OYVAY Ruvy,

    we are entitled to racial revenge for the shit you’ve made Jews go through for 17 centuries.

    give it a rest already…we too have suffered! all of us…you don’t have dibs on suffering.

  • We have enough trouble getting through to each-other in English.

  • Typinc in Dvorak bakes me think…a lot…before I post.

  • But if everyone can’t read it, why bother?

    I thought you were my Pa Puff Gool-friend? 🙁

  • Ruvy

    Yeah, Irene,

    So whatcher baking now?

  • Sorry, Irene…I’m getting paranoid when I question who is here on this thread…I once went to sleep after posting here, absolutely convinced that none of you even existed! 8 O

  • @ p.p.g. Jeannie & hebrew tutor ruvy : 2 many ?s 4 me 2day. 🙂

  • bye…kavorkian woman 🙂

  • Bill B

    This is just so much more ridiculousness. I’m sorry – I feel for those who lost loved ones on 9/11 – but I refuse to pander to their shortsighted inability to distinguish between an entire religion and those radicals who attacked us.

    Not to mention the other folks who are of similar mind without the pain and suffering to lean on – and then the worst of the lot are those who oppose similar construction around the country and don’t even have any pretense on which to base their opposition.

    As pointed out anyone who knows anything about NYC (I live 20 minutes n/e of the city) knows if it’s 2 blocks away it might as well be 40 blocks away. For those opposed how far away is ok? 4 blocks, 6 blocks, and who decides?

    IMHO it’s the perfect place for moderate Muslims to be. It’ll be a place ripe for healing for those with open hearts.

    As has been pointed out it’ll (denying the construction) also be viewed as confirmation of those who think the worst of our intentions around the world.

    It can ONLY be offensive to those who have bigoted views of Islam to begin with. If they can not distinguish between those Muslims who would do us harm and those who want to live as we do, then their protests should be met head on pointing out their simplistic viewpoint that caters to stereotypes and prejudice.

    It’s not about a group being insensitive, planning to build an Islamic Center with a prayer room near ground zero; it’s about others being incapable or refusing to distiguish that group from those who attacked us on 9/11.

  • Interesting, now the left is all worried about religious freedom. Utah just ruled that crosses cannot be displayed on the highway to honor fallen Officers because of separation of church and state, so where is your concern for religious freedom? Where is your concern for religious freedom when kids can’t pray in school? Oh, but it is okay for high school football players in Michigan to have their practices at night to accommodate the islamic players. Such a double standar! It sickens me. I am a member of the LDS church, where was your concern for my religious freedom when in Boston MA they ruled we couldn’t build a temple for zoning reasons? Where was your concern for religious freedom when there was still an EXTERMINATION order against Mormons in Missiouri until the 1970s. Your only concern for religious freedom seems to be with the muslims. No other religion’s freedoms deserve protecting?

  • Jordan Richardson

    We’re talking about the construction of a private facility, Kristy, not the imposition of one particular brand of religion on the general public.

    Kids can pray in schools all they like, too. Usually right before exams.

  • From a “fact-check” article today by the AP:

    Islam is already very much a part of the World Trade Center neighborhood. And Muslims pray inside the Pentagon, too, less than 80 feet from where terrorists attacked.

    No mosque is going up at ground zero. The center would be established at 45-51 Park Place, just over two blocks from the northern edge of the sprawling, 16-acre World Trade Center site. Its location is roughly half a dozen normal Lower Manhattan blocks from the site of the North Tower, the nearest of the two destroyed in the attacks.

    The center’s location, in a former Burlington Coat Factory store, is already used by the cleric for worship, drawing a spillover from the imam’s former main place for prayers, the al-Farah mosque. That mosque, at 245 West Broadway, is about a dozen blocks north of the World Trade Center grounds.

    Another, the Manhattan Mosque, stands five blocks from the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site.

    To be sure, the center’s association with 9/11 is intentional and its location is no geographic coincidence. The building was damaged in the Sept. 11 attacks and the center’s planners say they want the center to stand as a statement against terrorism.

  • Zedd


    1. The issues about crosses and schools have to do with people paying their money to the government and being forced to condone a religion that they don’t support. Just as you would have a problem with a pentagram being placed on highways that you pay for. Its your property. Its everyone’s property.

    2. If you are a Christian, you know that no one can stop you from praying. Prayer is a conversation between you and God. You don’t need a law to allow you to do so. I prayed my entire way through school. What you are advocating is for everyone to pretend to have a relationship with God just to make YOU feel good. That is not good. It’s actually bad. It lulls people into a false sense of security in the spiritual maturity, when in actuality, there is nothing there but parroting something that is done for show. What type of prayer should be had? Can I say a prayer to my class that denounces Mormonism because I think its a cult?

    3. You are mixing all sorts of municipalities from various parts of the country and are assuming that they represent ONE group of people. That’s naive and simplistic. EXPAND your understanding of your world.

    4. Are you serious when suggesting that Muslims get preferential treatment in this country? Either you are really really dishonest, even to yourself or your are really clueless about your world. Either way, you need to change.

  • Hey Nedd,
    No, my point is that if you are going to defend religious freedom, you have to defend it across the board, not pick and choose. You don’t hear of groups on the left standing up to defend any other religion. I am saying Muslims and atheists get preferential treatment from the LIBERAL LEFT, not the country as a whole.
    And no, you are wrong again, what about the private memorial of a cross to WWII soldiers that was forced, from an atheist’s lawsuit, to be taken down in the desert of NV. Who was that bothering? Tax dollars didn’t have to pay for it. And the crosses for the police officers were donated by a private organization. And as far as prayer, I’m not saying anyone wants anyone else to pretend anything or make me feel good. But like I said, if you are going to use the defense to build the mosque that they have a religious freedom to do so, then you have to defend across the board. Honestly, I think you are the naive one who can’t see past your own “great” thinking. “When they are learned they think they are wise”
    I am as entitled to my point of view as you are to yours. You, my friend, don’t have to agree with me, but don’t be patronizing and condescending.

  • You don’t hear of groups on the left standing up to defend any other religion.

    Yes, you do.

    what about the private memorial of a cross to WWII soldiers that was forced, from an atheist’s lawsuit, to be taken down in the desert of NV. Who was that bothering?

    It evidently bothered Mr Buono, who brought the lawsuit. The point of contention was that the cross was on federal land, and the subsequent sleight-of-hand transfer of the piece of land which happened to have the cross on it was rather negated by the decision to promptly designate it as a national monument.

    if you are going to use the defense to build the mosque that they have a religious freedom to do so, then you have to defend across the board.

    Where in Zedd’s comment is she suggesting that she is not willing to defend religious freedom across the board? Do please show us.

  • 3,three,THREE links in one. Good ones, too.

  • Thank you, Irene.

    Or should I say, thanj fou?


  • “The private memorial of a cross to WWII soldiers that was forced, from an atheist’s lawsuit, to be taken down in the desert of NV. Who was that bothering?”

    This would annoy me as well, Kristy, & I am aware of similar cases, but read Zedd’s #3 again. “They Always” and “They Never” language
    often trips one up.

  • then are we to surmise that Kristy is in support of the mosque so as not to sicken herself?

    and what’s wrong with practicing football at night?

  • STM

    EB: “and what’s wrong with practicing football at night?”

    Maybe it’s different in America, but isn’t all footy practise done at night, under lights, in the cold??

    The madness of it all … the smell of linament on a tackle bag, and steam rising from people’s heads.

  • STM

    And those time-worn, immortal lines:

    “Who’s pinched me f..king tape?”

    “F..k, I forgot me mouthguard.”

    And, “Shit, I left me f..king boots at ‘ome.”

  • STM

    Love winter …

  • Zedd


    1. Are you okay with pentagrams being placed all along the highways in your city?

    2. Do you want a Mormon hater to lead your child in prayer everyday; what about a devil worshiper? My beliefs are very specific. I don’t want anyone else indoctrinating my children. I chose our church because of their theology among other things. I don’t want someone whose belief i am not sure of giving my child spiritual guidance. Do you?

    3. Do you realize that most Liberals are Christians. So which THEY are you talking about?

    4. You do realize that this activity center is not being placed on government property. There is nothing for Liberals to support. Liberals don’t get a vote on this. They buy land and use it. If its zoned for private clubs, they get to have their club or activities.

    5. I haven’t read the article on the statue in the desert. Was this on private property or public property? Also, as a side note… so this person erected the cross in support of Christian soldiers only? Why that’s kinds mean isn’t it? It’s certainly not Christ like. So he was dissing all non Christian soldiers? Why? Why would he go out of his way to do that to people who have served and gave their lives for this country. No comprende on that. I await your answer.

    On a personal note:

    As a Christian, Kristy, KNOW that a cross has nothing to do with Christ and his message for you and me. A lot of people died on a cross. All sorts of criminals did. If Christ had been stoned to death, I suppose you’d be all in a tizzy about rocks? Im a Christian. Im more concerned with my personal walk and showing people in my daily walk, what his love does, instead of trying to make them look at two sticks that intersect two thirds up the longest stick and halfway the shorter one. Its silly and its is a HUGE distraction from what Christ stood for. Its also a type of idol worship if truth be told. So fellow Christian, refocus.

  • Bill B

    For kristy-

    You don’t read about liberals supporting christians because, among other things it doesn’t play as well as those mean old liberals oppressing christians in their war on christmas etc. in the right wing echo chamber. So much for the librul media, huh?

    So either you’re simply unaware or you just haven’t looked.

    Understand that (w/o actually researching your claims) all of your claims of so-called oppression against christians are, likely, actually designed to PROTECT religious freedom and the practice of same.

    It simply seems like christians are persecuted since they generally rule the roost in this country (what 80% or so?) so naturally when they “spread their wings” a bit too far it’s going to raise flags and create litigation.

    See below for liberals (aclu) defending christians.

    Try here, here, here and a whole bunch across all religions religions here.

    This is a good one of the aclu defending fans of jesus who wore “Islam is of the devil” t-shirts to school and got in trouble.

  • Bill B

    Oops, the last to hyperlinks are backwards.

  • Zedd


    Christians should be against mistreatment of people, because its Christ-like. If as a Christian I see that Buddhists are being persecuted or singled out, it’s my DUTY as a Christian to defend or support them. It’s unChristlike to join the mob and attack them. For a Christian, its sinful.

    Also, be convinced that God has no value for Left or Right leanings. YOU are judged by how you show love to everyone, not just Christians Kristy. Right now Muslims in America have been ostracized, put down, targeted, and blamed for something that they have not done or have no affiliation with, by so called Christians. You jump on the bandwagon further by chiding those who are standing up to say the persecution is WRONG. You do so pretending to be a representative of Christ. As a believer, I am admonishing you. You need to repent. Your political views are not Christianity and have become your idol and you have allowed them to overshadow your spiritual beliefs and God’s simple mandate. Nothing in the Bible supports your actions and you will find a great deal that speaks against what you are doing. If you are a Christian, you know this to be true and you know you need to ask for forgiveness.

    What is particularly disturbing to me is that you dare wear Christ as a cloak for your pharisaic and quite frankly bigoted behavior.

    Lastly, you have caused people to view Christ in a negative way and may have cause people to stumble, because of your lack of love for your fellow man. In America, Muslims are the least among us, right now. What have you done about that.

    It’s important for people to know that what you stand for is unChristlike. It stands against the same Word of God that you are pretending to be a disciple of.

  • Kristy,

    You should be more tolerant of the, Liberal Left. we buy candles…

  • War on Christmas! Give me a break!

    Christmas hasn’t meant the birth of Christ for many, many, many years…the remembrance of the birth of Jesus has been so polluted by the corporates, that it is now unrecognizable!

    Ask a little one, “Who was born on Christmas day? and they will answer, “Santa Claus!!!!!”

    So don’t give me this, we are more pious, holey and devote than the LIBERAL LEFT

  • More blood has been spilled using the name of Christ to justify it than any other religion on earth. in modern times

    I believe the basic message of Christ, not the perverted politically motivated lies that are being perpetuated to justify, greed, corruption and Godlessness.

    Jesus(as interpreted), said simply to tolerate and love one another and also don’t live just for material wealth but wealth of the human spirit…I’m not religious, but I bet I come pretty close for an Agnostic.humility is not one of my virtues!

  • Ruvy

    While all of you are singing praises to Jesus and working yourselves into a fury of Christian virtue and rapturous joy, on the other side of the world of Lies and Deception, are the Muslims who threaten those Muslims who dare oppose this mosque.

    While you bury your foolish heads into the sand, the Wahhabi developers of this victory monument are preparing one huge kick in your collective derrieres. Enjoy it! Your richly deserve it!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ruvy continues to peddle the notion that we should all be afraid, vewy vewy afraid. Oooh.

  • Ruvy

    Afraid – no. Watchful and careful that you are not played again.. After all, the man who murdered Rav Meir Kahane, z”l, hy”d, in New York turned out to be a fellow who was involved in trying to destroy the World Trade Center. The FBI was sop busy trying to whitewash this disgusting animal, so happy were they that Kahane was dead, that they missed oodles of evidence of his plans which only came to light years later.

    Red flags go up all around these “moderate Muslims” – really Wahhabi activists – who sing to you songs of peace and brotherhood while planning to piss in your faces. If you enjoy piss in your face, Roger, you will support this mosque – and plans to force Sharia in British Columbia.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, what would you have a secular state like the US do? Outlaw Islam? Declare war on a religion? On what basis could we do that? There are peaceful Muslims who deserve to worship freely, and there are Muslim criminals who should be locked up. Or, if you’d prefer, hung from meat hooks. Either way it’s practical, ethical, and Constitutional to permit just about everything and surveil anything that looks questionable.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ruvy, you know nothing about any “Sharia” in my province. And you know nothing about what “moderate Muslims” have planned. You’re speaking out of complete and total ignorance, my friend.

    Sooner or later your paranoia has to lead to action or else it’s just mindless drivel. As Baronius says, what would you suggest?

  • Jordan Richardson

    And just to prove your ignorance, Ruvy, why don’t you tell me how many Muslims there are in B.C.

    In the U.S., Muslims account for a mere 0.6% of the population. There are more Buddhists than there are Muslims. The “danger” American Muslims, Wahhabi or otherwise, represent to the United States on any significant scale is non-existent.

  • Ruvy

    Again, Baronius, you miss the fact that nowhere here have I condemned Muslims. Unlike Alan Kurtz, I do not hate Islam.

    But I do recognize an unpleasant truth. Islam is a dominionist religion that has not outgrown its militancy, while Christianity (or most of it) has. This, in the final analysis, requires an unpleasant response to this religion – for where it is in the majority it will force itself down your throats. This, unfortunately, is as true of Sunni and Shi’a Islam as it is of the heretical and murderous Wahhabi version. Only the Sufi may differ. I honestly do not know. The Sufi have also authored religious persecution in the past, in India.

    For the safety of your own population, Wahhabi and their sympathizers must be expelled. They are a class who are essentially terrorists who from the gitgo will seek to overthrow and subvert your nation. But the remaining Muslims will be good citizens, living in peace so long as they are in the minority in the communities where they are. So, in order to maintain that situation, a numerous clausus system, which is an unpleasant solution, is the long range solution for the Muslims living in the States. The trouble with such a system is that no matter how idealistic the original plan may be, it will turn to be oppressive to those who are its victims.

    In New York City, Muslims are ten percent of the population. In Detroit, the percentage is higher. In these counts of Muslims, Wahhabi are not counted separately.

  • Ruvy

    This article is not related to this subject at all – but the title is very relevant to this issue, and the issue of the Wahhabi threat in the USA – and in Canada.

    The title? “If you ignore it, it won’t go away.” ’nuff said.

  • Ruvy,

    They are a class who are essentially terrorists who from the gitgo will seek to overthrow and subvert your nation.

    I’m going to take this statement out of context and say, like you?

    Of course you are not a terrorist…we all just throw that word around a lot!

  • Ruvy

    When I blow up a building with 3,000 Americans, or kill 15 US soldiers, you’ll be entitled to call me a terrorist, Jordan.

  • Do you mean, Jeannie? and I didn’t call you a terrorist. #103

  • Baronius

    “Again, Baronius, you miss the fact that nowhere here have I condemned Muslims.”

    No, Ruvy, I didn’t. I described the exact same thing you want to see happen in Israel: a purge of the violent Muslims, and peace with the others. That’s what you always say you want, right?

    You never explain how we’re going to know the difference. You say the whole problem is Wahhabism, but also that Wahhabi influence runs throughout Islam. So what’s the tip-off? When you guys pull out your knives and go on a nationwide killing spree (which you’ve previously described), how are you going to only kill the bad Muslims?

  • John Wilson

    My 90 year old uncle is still pissed that there’s a Toyota dealership in downtown Honolulu! “Those dirty japs”, he hollers.

    Beware, beware! The Shintos may enslave us yet!

  • Baronius

    “More blood has been spilled using the name of Christ to justify it than any other religion on earth. in modern times”

    “In New York City, Muslims are ten percent of the population. In Detroit, the percentage is higher.”

    I’d love to see some numbers supporting either of those statements.

  • I thought you would, Baronius’

    So…I’ll be back as soon as I find some.

    Cindy! help

  • Go on Questionhub dot com, it pulls in answers from many sites. It’s really busy right now, so I wasn’t able to log on.

  • Ruvy & Baronius. I hadn’t thought about the funding. Hmmmm. If Jews & Xns suggest a co-op? Same reaction likely?

  • Zedd

    Why do we only purge violent Muslims. I thought law enforcement deals with all criminals. Are Muslim criminals different?

    On a personal level, I’ve never had a single bad experience with a Muslim. Not sure why I should be alarmed about them. I’ve had some really REALLY horrible, dangerous and degrading experiences with members of other groups. From what I have read on this thread, I should be vigilant and on high alert regarding anyone that may be affiliated, however remotely, to the individuals of that/those offender’s.

  • Clavos


    Irene, the flaw in the paper you link is that the author attributes all those killings to atheism, rather than the concomitant philosophies (?) practiced by such as the Nazis. Using the Nazis as an example, he does not prove his point that it was their non-religious attitude (atheism if you will), that caused them to to commit those atrocities.

    He (she?) assumes that correlation equates to causation, which is a logical fallacy frequently seen in these threads.

    Some of the most truly (i.e. non hypocritical) moral people I know are atheists.

  • Clavos you’re right. Some of the most non hypocritical and moral people are atheists. However, most of the people who spread the meme that Christians are the #1 shedder of innocent blood in history are also atheists. The paper was in response to them. I also had trouble with the last sentence, til I read the qualifier…”if they PRACTICED what the founder preached.”

    (Dvorak keyboard Progress Admission: I cheated with this last comment—it was not typed with Dvorak.)

  • Irene,

    Which comment are you talking about? Who made it?


  • …& sadly, I will add this Clavos. If [some] Christians, Jews and Muslims continue to believe that God’s mission for them is to exterminate all those of other faiths, then it is likely that the 110,000,000 deaths caused by atheistic Communists in the 20th century will surpassed by those who killed in the name of God.

  • #94

  • Then see 2nd link in #111, Jeannie. Clavos and I are talking about the first link in #111.

  • Do you agree with me? Or is it some sort of blasphemy that I have interpreted what Christ’s teaching’s meant to me.
    who does not go to any organized church or group for worship.

  • Jeannie, I’ve quoted your #94 in italics.
    “More blood has been spilled using the name of Christ to justify it than any other religion on earth. in modern times” DISAGREE

    I believe the basic message of Christ, not the perverted politically motivated lies that are being perpetuated to justify, greed, corruption and Godlessness. AGREE

    Jesus(as interpreted), said simply to tolerate and love one another and also don’t live just for material wealth but wealth of the human spirit… AGREE PARTLY.

    I’m not religious, but I bet I come pretty close for an Agnostic.humility is not one of my virtues! THIS IS BETWEEN YOU AND GOD.

  • Jeannie, pa puff gools can agree to disagree. This in fact, was part of our founding document.
    Now, I have to grill some corn.

  • I’ll be right there…yum, corn with butter 🙂

    I’ll have to write a response in the morning this, Pa Puff is all puffed out… :)nite, Irene

  • Jordan Richardson

    So basically, Ruvy, you’re not going to answer my question about how many Muslims are in BC. That’s okay, I never thought you would.

    Once again, you prove your “knowledge” of the alleged Wahhabi “threat” in Canada comes from the same place most of your other ideas come from. I’ll let you fill in the blanks from there.

  • Islam is the religion on Peace.. if you think the people you see in the tv, movies and news channels with beard and nonsense are muslims.. than you are absolutely wrong.. If you want to know about the Islam read Quran which majority of Muslims dont read.. (Masjid Tuscon Arizona) Check it out!