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A Different Type of President

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The myth of a post-racial America dies quickly as opponents of the president use innuendo and unfounded allegations to damage the nation’s first non-white Chief Executive.

Why is there so much talk about who Barack Obama really is? When has an American president in modern times ever had to defend his citizenship, loyalty to the country and his religious affiliation? At what point in the left’s criticism of George W. Bush did anyone ever question whether he actually attended Yale and Harvard and how he was accepted to those prestigious institutions or ask to see his transcripts?

Why wasn’t ‘W’ or Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan or Jimmy Carter ever asked to publically prove he was born in the USA?

Why are politicians, some media outlets and a certain segment of our population so quick to abandon tried and true policies that have been the followed in our country for over 50-years at a drop of a hat? Why have established national policies suddenly been labeled Socialist?

Why has the truth taken a back seat to political rhetoric and propaganda in our country?

We cannot explain these phenomena away by insisting it is politics as usual because it isn’t. During the bleak days of Watergate, our nation’s ominous mood during the Carter years or, the shadowy governance of the Reagan White House the American people respected the office of the president and wished our president well. Although we may have disagreed with his policies we never questioned his loyalty to our country or, his citizenship.

There was indeed political one-upmanship, there was plenty of harsh rhetoric and each political party constantly sought an advantage over on another. However what we are witnessing today if different than anything I have seen. 

It began during the general election campaign in 2008 as his political opponents sought to depict Senator Barack Obama as an outsider and “exotic.”

Obama was literally forced to run away from his Chicago Church home because his pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, a decorated war hero dared to criticize the country he served in wartime. Then about one-month prior to the election he was accused of “palling around with terrorists” because of an old association with Bill Ayers, one of the founders of the group the Weather Underground. Both were efforts to depict Obama as unacceptable to American voters.

Those attacks were frontal but at the same time there was a relatively clandestine campaign on the Internet and on talk radio that was much more insidious. In the dark bowels of the right wing chatter class Obama was being denounced as a Muslim, a Communist, and there was talk that he wasn’t even an American citizen.

Through the years there have been attacks on our politicians but none more coordinated than the attacks against the first non-white president. The signs have been present from the beginning and after his Inauguration the drum beat constantly grew louder and louder culminating in the formation of the TEA Party when thousands of mostly white Americans, disgusted with the policies of the Obama Administration declared they were going to, “Take OUR country BACK!”

In the face of these weird and unfounded challenges the president and the members of his Administration have decided the issue of race as it pertains to the irrational opposition to Obama should not be discussed publicly. The fact is “playing the race card” has been effectively demonized by white people and the mass media since the OJ Simpson murder trial in 1996. Since that time white society was given an instrument to defray the talk of racism in most all circumstances. When African Americans or any other racial or ethnic minority mentions race now there is a collective sigh by our society and the murmur of Ronald Reagan’s 1980 comment to President Jimmy Carter, “There you go again.”

But now there is really no other place to go to understand the visceral opposition to this president.

Policies that have been long-standing pillars of the GOP legislative agenda in Congress that have been co-opted by this president are summarily rejected by those same Republicans.

The irrational talk of the president being a Muslim has persisted in the face of his avowed Christianity. Some even accuse him of being a terrorist sympathizer.

The incessant wrangling that the documents recording his birth in a hospital in Hawaii were forged and that no one remembers him in high school has continued in the face of official documentation.

Now, his academic records at Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law School are said by his far right distracters to be questionable.

Take back our country. That is the cry of the far right wing.

My question is, take it back from whom? From the nearly 70 million voters who elected Barack Obama president?

No, the answer has more to do with the color of our President’s skin than any of his middle-of-the-road policies and, as a result of these facts I have one thing to say to those cowardly individuals and groups who peddle hate and deception in our country, “There you go again!”

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About Ronald W Weathersby

  • Baronius

    United We Stand: How We Can Take Back Our Country, by H. Ross Perot (1992)

    Thieves in High Places: They’ve Stolen Our Country and It’s Time to Take It Back, by Jim Hightower (2004)

    You Have the Power: How to Take Back Our Country and Restore Democracy in America, by Howard Dean and Judith Warner (2006)

    Take It Back: Our Party, Our Country, Our Future, by James Carville and Paul Begala (2006)

  • http://tmackorg.com/ Tommy Mack

    In the in the early 60s South, people hated President Kennedy for his Catholicism and openly said so. The Klan celebrated his assassination. They hated Martin Luther King for his race and openly said so. The Klan celebrated his assassination and was infiltrated by the FBI.

    The tea party has flashed hateful Klan rhetoric and appealed to bigotry, stopping just short of openly saying racist things about President Obama. They stop just short of wearing sheets, reciting Biblical scripture and vilifying the president because of his ethnicity.

    Much of the 60s was a hateful time because the bigots hated change. That is part of what bigotry is about, that and loving war. Bigots have infiltrated the Republican party. I cringe when I hear the chanting, Take the Country Back because it means racism is on the way and that train is always on time.

    Tommy

  • Baronius

    Tommy, I’ll bet you didn’t cringe when Carville, Dean, et al wrote about taking the country back. You didn’t see it as Klan-like because that’s not how you pictured the authors. When you hear the Republicans say the same thing it sounds racist, but that’s because you picture them that way. A party can’t be held responsible for the images in your head, and it’s unfair for you to judge them on that basis.

  • Gary

    Let there be no doubt that those who we see speak in the manner as they do, most definetly directed at your president, are to be held in contempt, hateful of his heritage, his race.

  • Boeke

    3-baronius: tu quoque.

  • zingzing

    “The tea party has flashed hateful Klan rhetoric and appealed to bigotry…”

    actually, the klan publicly distanced themselves from the tea party recently. their membership is forbidden to attend tea parties or support it in any way, including attending little girl tea parties with all their little dolls and tiny little cups and folding chairs and all that. (they also distanced themselves from koran burning and westboro baptist…)

    the kkk does say that the tea party seeks to compromise the republican party (although it doesn’t say in what way, although i guess there must be something positive about the gop that the kkk likes), although they don’t go so far as to actively support any party. bunch of spoil sports if you ask me.

  • zingzing

    and “positive” is a relative term up there.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ronald –

    When African Americans or any other racial or ethnic minority mentions race now there is a collective sigh by our society and the murmur of Ronald Reagan’s 1980 comment to President Jimmy Carter, “There you go again.”

    Quoted for truth…and even more so when it’s a white guy pointing out racism by other whites. I’ve pointed out several times the April 2011 poll showing that forty-six percent of Mississippi Republicans STILL think interracial marriage should be banned. And let’s not forget the former RNC chair and almost GOP presidential candidate Haley Barbour who supported the extremely-racist Conservative Citizens Council and also said that racism “wasn’t so bad” when he was growing up in Civil Rights-era Mississippi.

    And what do the BC conservatives do? They pooh-pooh the poll and ignore the rest of the facts…but not once have I seen one actually address what these facts strongly imply about the character of the Republican party.

    It is true that most Republicans are good and nice people…but they stubbornly ignore the racism that DOES influence their party, and castigate any and all who point it out, claiming that Dems and liberals are ‘just as bad’…all the while never understanding that it is a matter of degree, that while some Democrats are racist, it is FAR more prevalent and accepted among the Republicans than among the Democrats

  • Baronius

    Boeke – Tu noque.

    I’m not claiming that both sides are racist. I’m saying that the use of the phrase “taking back our country” isn’t racist, and that can be seen by the way both sides use it.

  • Delmer

    The same 20-25% that right-wingers can always depend on, are the same ones who perpetrate this insolence. These folks are patriarchal and need to be lead. and refuse to, or can’t think for themselves. They should be marginalized, and not highlighted.

  • Cannonshop

    It’s projection. If the man in the white house were white-anglo-saxon, with the same policies and the same speeches/staffers/affiliates, the same opponents would likely be levying the same criticisms (minus the tinfoil-hat brigade of Birthers-who originated mostly among the Democrats…)

    However, because he is black, the logic goes, all opposition must be racially-based, particularly any opposition not from the Party.

    The reason’s of course really simple-a WASP with his record would never have come in glue-sniffing distance of the Democratic Party Nomination in 2008. His supporters did so to be “Historically Historic” in nominating a Black Man, i.e., they supported him SOLELY because of his race-therefore, anyone who opposed his election, or opposes his policies or critiques negatively his performance, must be a racist.

  • zingzing

    cannonshop, must you simplify everything down to black and white? what’s your hangup?

    “The reason’s of course really simple-a WASP with his record would never have come in glue-sniffing distance of the Democratic Party Nomination in 2008.”

    and yet palin and trump can possibly make it from the republicans. you may have a point in that the usual dem nominee has significant washington and/or governorship experience. at least they won’t have to give up their tv contracts. sheesh.

    “His supporters did so to be “Historically Historic” in nominating a Black Man, i.e., they supported him SOLELY because of his race-therefore, anyone who opposed his election, or opposes his policies or critiques negatively his performance, must be a racist.”

    that’s your take. but you know that’s a vast simplification. some simply voted for a black man. some are simply racist against the black president. most have a lot of varying reasons for supporting or opposing the president.

    you conservatives are just as bad as us libs on the whole race thing. admit it. you bring it up as much as anyone. if we’re going to stop the race-based politics, it’s going to take all of us. so do your part, because fuck if you’re not among the worst around here.

  • KMcDow

    As far as we have come as a nation, we will never be able to legislate against internalized hate and all that ensues as a result of it. Our country has been embattled since the holocaust of slavery in the U.S.,which by the way, many would like to strike from the history books. Sadly, there are some who are racist and refuse to change. There has long been a double standard that exists for everyone who isn’t white, anglo-saxon male.

    When it comes to our President, Barack Obama, I believe there are more Americans of all races who are for him then they who are against him. After all, he was elected to the highest office in this nation and the world. And this will be the legacy of our great nation concerning the first African American President of the United States.

    I beleive people’s actions define who they are. When they publicly call for birth certificates, how one qualified for enrollment in prestigious institutions and transcripts of one president without having required the same from previous presidents, it becomes very clear. Any business setting would deem these actions employment discrimination and attach severe penalties for the infractions.

    However, the record speaks for itself and, I say we not give vitriolic hate speech a place it doesn’t deserve. In the meantime, my prayer is God bless President Barack Obama and God bless the United States of America. This would include all those who have the right to be wrong!

  • Dan

    Isn’t diversity great! Oh the joy of perpetual scrutiny for racism. Whitey has certainly progressed.

  • zingzing

    things were certainly easier when we just didn’t give a fuck, eh, dan?

  • http://cinemasentries.com/ El Bicho

    So Cannonshop doesn’t like when Obama critics are seen only being against Obama because of race while he states Obama supporters only do support him because of race?

    Hypocritical much?

  • Dan

    Or maybe things were better when we did give a fuck zz.

  • zingzing

    do you mean that when we actively tried to separate the races into different bathrooms, different parts of the bus, different social strata, different layers of freedom, all of us in america were better off?

    if that’s what you mean, it’s a good thing for you that you’re white, i guess. luck of the draw. when we’re a “despised minority,” as you say, do you hope whatever majority develops is bent on treating you as you would seemingly treat them? or do you just hold out no hope for america once they “take over” your exclusively “for and by whites” country?

    if i’m not accurately portraying your vision of race in america, just let me know. it’d be a relief to know that such diseased thought has been eliminated from the american mindset.

  • Clavos

    …whatever majority develops…

    Seremos los que hablamos español.

  • zingzing

    most likely so, clavos. dan’s on the losing end of history and inevitability. and i hope the monolingual buckets aren’t judged with him as some sort of standard.

  • Dan

    “do you mean that when we actively tried to separate the races into different bathrooms, different parts of the bus, different social strata, different layers of freedom, all of us in america were better off?”

    Well, certainly whites were better off. That’s why integration had to be forced, through threat of violence (as Clavos has noted income tax collection is), as it still is today.

    “if that’s what you mean, it’s a good thing for you that you’re white, i guess. luck of the draw.”

    Nope, that’s not what I meant. The civil rights movement was based on the assumption that integration–even though forced on whites–would result in the elimination of racial prejudice and even consciousness of race, as hardworking and capable blacks would quickly demonstrate the validity of egalitarian theory.

    That did not happen. Nature is a stubborn thing, as evermore sophisticated scientific investigation continues to bear out.

    But, instead of recognizing the social engineering error and the truth of genetic determinism, Political elites, consisting mostly of white “progressive” sociopaths began to see the advantage in suppressing a white collective racial consciousness. At the same time non-whites were, and are, encouraged to organize, fret over, and pursue a racial consciousness to actively work for their exclusive racial interest.

    Through a comprehensive program of coercive persuasion, manipulation, and thought reform, things such as media, historical revision, public educational indoctrination, mandatory diversity workshops etc. etc. whites were eventually convinced that black failure was the result of white evil. (this is what happened to you) The more failure, the more evident the wickedness.

    “when we’re a “despised minority,” as you say, do you hope whatever majority develops is bent on treating you as you would seemingly treat them?”

    My way would have been colorblind equality. That didn’t work, remember? Since non-whites are progressively privileged–at the expense, and to the detriment of whites–as their numbers and influence grows, I see no reason for why the trend would suddenly reverse.

    Though the media suppress much of it, models of a barbaric persecuted future for whites already exist in Zimbabwe and, to a less progressed extent, South Africa, since the transition to non-white rule.

    “if i’m not accurately portraying your vision of race in america, just let me know. it’d be a relief to know that such diseased thought has been eliminated from the american mindset.”

    And I’ll happily continue to reveal the truth and expose your grotesque caricatures until such time as you lapse back into anger and incivility. Or, I just get tired of your dishonesty. I’m truly happy to demonstrate this contrast to readers.

    “dan’s on the losing end of history and inevitability”

    You’re not a very deep thinker are you. We are on the same train. Whatever direction the surrender of white legitimacy to live, think, and exist takes us, we go together.

    On Fox news last night, they showed film of osama bin ladin “sympathizers” violently attempting to storm the US embassy… in London. I hadn’t realized England was so far ahead of us in this exciting element of multicultural enrichment.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    “The truth of genetic determinism” could be a real turn-off phrase, Dan. Could you explain what you mean by that?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    This is not part of a pile-on, Dan. As was just demonstrated, I’m very tired of the way whites who need to be pulling together WITH blacks to fix this country, are instead wasting time and energy making or defending against charges of racism amongst themselves.

    But I really do think that phrase needs clarification.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    He means the facts he has distorted to fit his predetermined conclusions, because the actual science does not support his position at all.

  • zingzing

    “The civil rights movement was based on the assumption that integration–even though forced on whites–would result in the elimination of racial prejudice and even consciousness of race, as hardworking and capable blacks would quickly demonstrate the validity of egalitarian theory. That did not happen.”

    you are assuming that the integration was carried out as well as it could have been. many “hard working and capable blacks” have demonstrated that, given the opportunity, they can succeed and are as gifted and intelligent as any white person.

    “the truth of genetic determinism…”

    which is…? blacks are what? stupid? violent? when did they take over for the irish? (god, i hope you’re irish.)

    “whites were eventually convinced that black failure was the result of white evil”

    there are inequalities still present within our society. these things are hard to change. it will take change in everyone, including white people. and given the balance of racial power in this country, white people will have much asked of them.

    “My way would have been colorblind equality. That didn’t work, remember?”

    you seem pretty blase about the whole thing. you give up suspiciously easy. oh, the convenience of being born white (yawn). it was never going to be an overnight transformation, and we’ve been making serious strides towards a more racially integrated and harmonious nation. but because you are who you are, you can only see it as the doom of the white race.

    “Though the media suppress much of it, models of a barbaric persecuted future for whites already exist in Zimbabwe and, to a less progressed extent, South Africa, since the transition to non-white rule.”

    what strikes you as different about zimbabwe and south africa as compared to the united states? nothing? are we a white-ruled country at this point? not in the way zimbabwe and sa were. so, maybe their present (and please don’t bring up mugabe as any sort of standard by which you judge things…) is not our future.

    “You’re not a very deep thinker are you. We are on the same train. Whatever direction the surrender of white legitimacy to live, think, and exist takes us, we go together.”

    i don’t envision the same hellish minority-run future that you do, remember? not everyone thinks like you do, mr. deep thinker. and “the surrender of white legitimacy to live, think and exist”? are they going to kill us? is that what you think?

    “I’ll happily continue to reveal the truth and expose your grotesque caricatures…”

    your words create a better picture than i could ever hope to. i expected they would. you may not think of yourself as racist, just “race conscious,” but you certainly do have a negative opinion attached to the color of a person’s skin. can you even see an individual at this point?

    you know, there’s an organization out there that was created to “save the white race” from just the kind of future you speak of. it’s called the kkk. look ‘em up. check on how much you agree with them. if it doesn’t bother you, well…

  • Dan

    “This is not part of a pile-on, Dan.”—Irene

    Oh I know Irene. Not to worry. Truth is powerful. Even if you are wrong, but believe yourself to be true. Wrong isn’t evil. Implying someone is evil (or piling on to question motivation) for speaking a carefully considered opinion, just demonstrates a desire to suppress truth.

    I was disappointed that you didn’t comment much on the Elizabeth Wright link about white brainwashing. I know you are a gentle Christian lady that is eternally optimistic. Most likely, thinking about race relations and terms like “genetic determinism” harsh that reality.

    What happens though, when you read zingzing and pals speak gleefully of promoting the end of the white race? Their race. Not that I’m motivated to speak out against their creepy mental twist. I’m wondering about you. Do you feel any squeamishness at that that might make you ask for clarifications? It’s Ok if you don’t.

    “i don’t envision the same hellish minority-run future that you do, remember? not everyone thinks like you do, mr. deep thinker”

    Then you needn’t sneer about “being on the wrong side of history”, everything will turn out great and I’ll love it as much as you.

  • zingzing

    “What happens though, when you read zingzing and pals speak gleefully of promoting the end of the white race? Their race.”

    see, dan, you think that the lack of a white majority in this country will create “the end of the white race.” why? will we suddenly stop making babies? or will THEY hunt us down and kill us? or will we be “grayed” out of existence (if that’s so, someone of the white race must certainly like someone of some other race a whole, whole lot)?

    and i notice you didn’t answer irene’s question. why not?

    “everything will turn out great and I’ll love it as much as you.”

    nope. everything will move along its historical line, and the world won’t suddenly change to something drastically better or drastically worse. demographic shift creates gradual change, not sudden utopia or hell. and i get the feeling you’ll be unhappy not being massa top dog.

    “Implying someone is evil (or piling on to question motivation) for speaking a carefully considered opinion, just demonstrates a desire to suppress truth.”

    not when you believe that person to be spouting junk. you decided i am mentally incompetent in order to “suppress truth.” what’s fair is fair, no?

  • Dan

    spouting junk is evil? Glad you cleared that up.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Elizabeth Wright, whose blog you pointed me to, sounds like a black clone of me. There, I can offer her no higher endorsement. Her blogroll is what my blogroll would be if I had a blog: Veterans for Peace, Courage to Resist, Evangelicals for Human Rights, boy, she even has Idaho’s Will Griggs and his anti-ProLibertate blog.

    I can do a site-specific google search on her blog to see how she defines genetic determinism.

  • zingzing

    “spouting junk is evil? Glad you cleared that up.”

    well, not quite. it’s not the “desire to suppress truth” that motivates one to speak out against what one considers “junk” (i.e., crap that is ill-considered and of dubious worth).

    did that clear that up?

    i think you’re the biggest victim of whatever “evil” there may be in you personally, so whatever. it’s more sad than evil.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    I’m coming up with nada.
    Looks like I’m going to have to hear your explanation, Dan. I can handle it.

    I won’t be around BC anymore today, so if I don’t respond, it doesn’t necessarily mean I’ve swooned.

    Gentle Christian Lady. DANG. The new me is ACERBIC, Dan. Don’t you forget it.

  • Ronald W Weathersby

    Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. It seems my little piece touched a couple of nerves and has elicited a good discussion.

    It is revealing to me that in the 21st century there are still individuals who believe in the concept of racial superiority. Scary actually.

    Oh well, it seems as far as we have traveled down this road we still are far, far away from a truly “post-racial” America.

    It is truly amazing to me that so many of the people who talk about how much better this country was ‘before’ a certain time in history actually came here AFTER a majority of those of us who are of African heritage. Maybe, just maybe those who believe in that myth should return to their homelands and leave us Americans alone to continue our to work our truly unique miracle.

    My fore-bearers have been on this land for centuries. They helped build America. They fought and died to preserve and protect it. This is MY home also and no one is going to tell me, my children,their children or their children’s children any different.

    When will we truly learn to look beyond skin color in our great country? It will be then and only then that America will indeed reach her fullest potential.

    Once again, thanks for reading and I hope you continue to do so.

  • Cannonshop

    #12 Simple, I base my argument on your first defense of the President-that his critics are all a bunch of white-supremacy racists right off of Stormfront and the Aryan Nations.

    I base it on the reflexive attempts to paint groups like the TEA Party (who formed in opposition to GW Bush’s poisonous bailout policies) as an arm of the KKK and ANP.

    Your first defense is ALWAYS race, and to paint any critic as being a “birther” (code for Neo-Nazi), unless you happen to know that the critic in question is a minority.

    #32 Mister Weathersby, there are scumbags all over the world. There’s racism in africa, between persons of darker-skinned persuasions. (Darfur, the Tutsi/Hutu civil wars, Eritrea/Ethiopia, etc etc. etc.)

    Racist scum exist in every colour, flavour, style and type, from the dickhead who abuses scientific hypotheses via bad science, to the creep using religious scriptures, to the manipulators who try to use economic data to prove that ‘x’ group is brutally exploiting ‘y’ victim-group.
    (the last trick was popular with both Communists, and Fascists, with the result of the Georgian Genocide and the Holocaust as blazing examples of the typical end-state.)

    One of the prime reasons for freedom of speech is to expose the dickheads, creeps, and manipulators to public scrutiny, so that they and their followers may be identified clearly by the rest of us as what they, in fact are.

    When it suppressed by official means (laws, for instance), what happens is that your problem does NOT go away, it festers in secret, poisoning not only the racist feeps, but those who would oppose them, sine they re not readily identified and paranoia can thus grow. This un-does actual work toward racial and ethnic harmony, and promotes the division of society into warring factions grasping for power, rather than citizens working toward a common good (whether through altruism, or enlightened self-interest. Civil wars and Racial Strife are bad for everyone in the long run.)

    The short-term benefits of course, of racial strife include expanding government and using it to redistribute wealth in an effort to pursue some ephemeral “Social Justice” ideal.

    This is, imho, a bad bargain. If you trust the government with ALL your resources, you should maybe ask an Indian if the Government is trustworthy and keeps its bargains in good faith.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Dan, I’m not afraid of Blacks taking over the United States. No way the Asians are going to let that happen.

    Seriously, if you look at some of the later Bell-Curvy (2008) type research, which examines IQ data world-wide, you find Asians consistently outperform

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    outperform whites. And who owns most of the US debt?

    If Whites, Blacks, Indians (continental and Native American), and Asians who live here can’t figure out how to stop the “who’s the smartest” “who has been the most oppressed” “you don’t like my presidents color that’s why you’re disagreeing with economic and foreign policy” CRAP, the United States is finished.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Dan, that is my minus-two-standard-deviations way of saying, “I think #33 makes a lot of sense.” Done talking about race for…weeks and weeks, I hope. Have a good spring.

  • Dan

    “see, dan, you think that the lack of a white majority in this country will create “the end of the white race.””—zingzing

    Nonsense, I was asking Irene if she regarded *your* stated ideal of ending the white race as something she would seek clarification on. just as she sought clarification on my use of the term “genetic determinism”.

  • Dan

    “When will we truly learn to look beyond skin color in our great country? It will be then and only then that America will indeed reach her fullest potential.”—Ronald Weathersby

    This platitude illustrates the kind of muddled thinking that so often accompanies discussions of race. Looking “beyond skin color” would mean dismantling the entire civil rights edifice. The racist preference structure so central to the Democrat party.

    Indeed, if Ronald truly wanted to look “beyond skin color” he couldn’t have written this article. Critisism of a President he notices to be black by tea partiers he notices to be “mostly white” is the central reason for his charge of racism.

  • Dan

    “Seriously, if you look at some of the later Bell-Curvy (2008) type research, which examines IQ data world-wide, you find Asians consistently outperform”—Irene

    So then, you are familiar with some of the research on IQ data. Careful with that stuff. It’s very upsetting to some people.

    “Genetic determinism” refers to whatever portion of group differentials, not just intelligence, that is inherent to the group. It is the “nature” part of the “nature vs nurture” argument. That’s all.

    The Elizabeth Wright article I refered you to didn’t address genetic determinism, It was far more interesting: an intellectual black womans take on the massive psychological abuse of whites that permeates society.

    I would still be interested in hearing what you think of it. But I understand if you find talking race uncomfortable. That is what the brainwashing is intended to do…for whites.

  • zingzing

    “#12 Simple, I base my argument on your first defense of the President-that his critics are all a bunch of white-supremacy racists right off of Stormfront and the Aryan Nations.”

    funny. that’s EXACTLY what i’d thought you’d say and proves my point. why don’t you go look at what i wrote again? all you can see if race this race that. so cut it out. you’re as bad as what you criticize. in fact, you are what you criticize.

    “I base it on the reflexive attempts to paint groups like the TEA Party (who formed in opposition to GW Bush’s poisonous bailout policies) as an arm of the KKK and ANP.”

    even the kkk doesn’t want to be associated with the tea party.

  • zingzing

    dan: “Nonsense, I was asking Irene if she regarded *your* stated ideal of ending the white race”

    put on your reading glasses, dan. or maybe you’re hallucinating. i never wrote anything close to that, that’s just what your racism leads you to believe. you really do see threats to your poor white race from around every corner. you are so damn frightened.

    “the massive psychological abuse of whites that permeates society.”

    oh, for fuck’s sake. what fucking pity party is this? take your banky and go to your room, dan.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    I’m not uncomfortable talking about race, Dan. I’m TIRED of talking about race.

    I’m tired of talking about race with Glenn.
    I’m tired of talking about race with ZingZing.
    I’m tired of talking about race with you.

    Couldn’t help but notice that you couldn’t bring yourself to finish this quote: “Seriously, if you look at some of the later Bell-Curvy (2008) type research, which examines IQ data world-wide, you find Asians consistently outperform…”

    Asians outperform whites. PWNED!

  • Dan

    “Couldn’t help but notice that you couldn’t bring yourself to finish this quote:”—Irene

    I cut and pasted it from your #34, exactly the way you left it. I’m quite aware of asians outperforming whites. I’m comfortable with any truth. What does PWNED mean?

    Irene, if you’re tired of talking about it, simply stop. No need to abandon civility.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    You haven’t told me what you mean by
    “genetic determinism.” I don’t have to tell you what I mean by pwned.

    Yes, tired. Good night.

  • zingzing

    i think we can all figure out what he means by “genetic determinism.” but if he’d like to explain it, all the better.

  • Dan

    I think we can all figure out what I and everyone who’s ever used the term mean by it if we look at comment #39, where I cheerfully defined it.

    I’ll assume “PWNED” is not a nice thing to say.

    “put on your reading glasses, dan. or maybe you’re hallucinating. i never wrote anything close to that, that’s just what your racism leads you to believe. you really do see threats to your poor white race from around every corner. you are so damn frightened.”—zingzing

    Don’t need reading glasses yet zingzing. It’s not surprising you don’t remember, you can’t even remember what you said in your nasty tantrum that was deleted for personal attacks. And that was much more recent.

    the incident I recall, you and pals were fantasizing how humans will eventually get rid of whitey, and everyone will be one homogonously brown race. And that would be swell. Sorta Hitlerian, only the master race isn’t white. Your strategy for achieving this was to encourage miscegenation. You then made the cringe inducing boast that your last three recent sexual conquests were women of color. Does that ring a bell?

    Seriously though, I didn’t mean to put you in a bad light. I just assumed that you were as open and honest about your desire for the destruction of the white race as I am about my desire to preserve it.

  • zingzing

    you need to put on your reading glasses, your thinking cap and insert your memory card, dan. this incident you recall was clearly tongue in cheek. you didn’t get it then, and even when you were told, you still didn’t get it. get it this time:

    “the incident I recall, you and pals were fantasizing how humans will eventually get rid of whitey, and everyone will be one homogonously brown race. And that would be swell.”

    i understand that sarcasm and hyperbole can be a little hard to grasp online. the context of what you read was how will the human race ever get rid of racism. in that context, i wrote that the surest way would be for there to be only one race. i then referenced conquering aliens (extraterrestrials) in that context, as you’ll note they usually seem to be very homogeneous. (if the aliens didn’t tip you off to the rather silly nature of my “fuck those most different from us and eventually meld into one super-race,” i really don’t know how to help. you’re obviously not supposed to take that seriously. the fact that it seems like a possibility is troubling. it’s like you’re running away from a lord of the rings screening screaming “HOBBITS AREN’T REAL!!!!”)

    at the time, you said, “As the comments here about how true racial strife will only be cured by eliminating the white race…”

    which is much like you’re doing here. you took something that was clearly tongue in cheek, and not about “eliminating the white race,” but about eliminating RACISM, and decided that all us “progressives” want nothing more than the end of the white race. why only the white race? you didn’t seem to notice that everyone was included. very strange, that. so defensive.

    and here you are doing it again. YOU SAW SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT THERE. get it? i told you this in the thread you are referencing. i really don’t know how to make this clear to you.

    as for the “cringe inducing boast” about “sexual conquests,” here it is: “two out of the last three women i’ve seriously dated have been mixed.” oh lord. women are fainting at the vulgarity. so why do you cringe? is it the miscegenation? or did you go and misremember something?

    “I just assumed that you were as open and honest about your desire for the destruction of the white race as I am about my desire to preserve it.”

    you were wrong. do you understand that now?

  • zingzing

    and just to be clear, the context for my “two out of the last three…” comment was doug hunter’s comment: “I don’t just talk the talk, I’ve done my part for the melding (how else am I to know I’m not marrying a distant cousin but to go outside the race!)”

  • zingzing

    you can see the entire exchange here.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    “Genetic determinism” refers to whatever portion of group differentials, not just intelligence, that is inherent to the group. It is the “nature” part of the “nature vs nurture” argument. That’s all.

    Exactly. That is all. It means genetically-determined details; small variations in human populations. So, for example, black people tend to have dark skin (hello!), can suffer from sickle-cell anaemia, are disproportionately prone to diabetes, strokes etc; Askenazi Jews have a high incidence of Tay-Sachs disease; Slavs tend to be tall; and so on.

    But there’s no reason to attach any particular significance to any of these traits than there is to attach significance to the gene that gives some people detached earlobes, or enables them to curl their tongues.

    Bottom line, we’re all the same species. All this “my race can beat up your race” stuff is so much bollocks.

  • Dan

    zingzing, There’s no need to rehash. I only referenced it as a thought experiment for Irene. Just joking around or not, the sentiment exists.

    I didn’t take exception to the notion at the time either. (And clearly stated so.) I’m for complete freedom of association and complete freedom of thought. The only point I even made then is that the acknowledgement that racism could only ever be eliminated by melding into homogenity is an admission that diversity, at least in this one aspect, is a source of conflict, not strength.

  • zingzing

    “I only referenced it as a thought experiment for Irene.”

    well, here’s a thought experiment for you. why did your mind immediately jump to the defense of the white race, when every race would be effected by such an attempt?

    (and also, you’re clearly backpeddling, but, that’s ok. “cringe inducing” indeed. speaking of, did you just misremember the “sexual conquests” thing that never was, or did you do it on purpose, or was it the miscegenation that caused the cringe?)

    “diversity, at least in this one aspect, is a source of conflict, not strength.”

    like all things human, it has its pluses and minuses. and we’ll always find something to fight about. pre-diversity, we came across africa, we raped and pillaged it. we “discovered” the mayans and aztecs and we encroached on native american lands, so we slaughtered them. we found china and india and we made them our drugged-up servants. oh, but they were just heathens and savages. and we’ve stopped being such savages as well. right? maybe it’s just harder to subjugate other races when they are an integral part of our society.

  • zingzing

    “zingzing, There’s no need to rehash.”

    yeah, dan, there was. you lied through your teeth. and i’m quite free to point out what was actually said. do you have a problem with that?

  • Dan

    “why did your mind immediately jump to the defense of the white race, when every race would be effected by such an attempt?”

    Because I think of my race first, and it’s normal and healthy. Why not you question why you think something’s wrong with that? I don’t overlook that fact.

    “or was it the miscegenation that caused the cringe?)”

    dig deeper zing, admittedly it was a snide remark, but I was actually thinking of the type of woman, not race, that I thought would be attracted to what I think of you as. sorry for that.

    “maybe it’s just harder to subjugate other races when they are an integral part of our society.”

    It’s easy for many people to consciously avoid examining that integration has always needed to be forced.

    “i’m quite free to point out what was actually said. do you have a problem with that?”

    No, not at all. I’m always glad for the contrast.

  • Dan

    “we came across africa, we raped and pillaged it. we “discovered” the mayans and aztecs and we encroached on native american lands, so we slaughtered them. we found china and india and we made them our drugged-up servants.”

    Really really screwed up. who’s this “we”? I don’t see any slaughtered Indians. If you’ve been slaughtering Indians, turn yourself in.

  • zingzing

    “it’s normal and healthy.”

    you think of your race first, and it’s normal and healthy? why not think of shared american society, or our shared humanity? we’re talking about ending racism and you start railing about the doom of the white race. do you not see the problem?

    “It’s easy for many people to consciously avoid examining that integration has always needed to be forced.”

    huh. i don’t recall the national guard coming out when i moved to this predominantly puerto-rican/dominican neighborhood. some people are quite happy living around other races, and have no problem with it. you, on the other hand, are a racist.

    “I was actually thinking of the type of woman, not race, that I thought would be attracted to what I think of you as.”

    wow. what a prickish thing to say. want me to talk about the type of woman i’d imagine you coming out of? no? you are low.

  • zingzing

    “who’s this “we”?”

    the white race, before all this terrible diversity, when no one (no one human anyway,) ever got hurt and we of the pure white blood could walk where we pleased. but you knew that.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Dan, why celebrate, uphold or uplift a fact about yourself (your race) you had nothing to do with?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    It would be great if blacks and whites could celebrate one another’s blackness and whiteness. Blacks celebrate black history month, go to churches that are specifically called, by them, Black Churches, have developed a Kwanza holiday to keep alive some of the traditions of Africa. Soul food. Drumming rituals.

    “Celebrations of pure whiteness” include various European ethnic festivals that feature curiously attired people (in liederhosen and such), accordian music, and plenty of beer. Celtic music and dancing–that’s another way whites celebrate their roots. Bluegrass music, another celebration of whiteness–something beautiful that comes from the culture of the American redneck hillbilly .

    People celebrate the distinctives of the people(s) whose blood runs through their veins. Why not? And you can join — as a guest at a wedding does–in the celebrations of other families of the world, other races.

    Jazz is a bridge between the celebration of whiteness and blackness. The Cotton Club was one of the first places whites and blacks celebrated together in America.

    I’ve always been warmly welcomed and “made a fuss of” when I visit Black churches, and I really am glad there are separate black churches to keep their distinctive forms of Gospel music and worship alive and authentic. I don’t know how many blacks really feel welcome at the St. Patrick’s Day parade in certain parts of Boston for instance. I think that’s a shame.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    …and I DO mean that bit o’ twee in #59, but I’m STILL TIRED OF TALKING ABOUT RACE.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    If I want to talk about Ron Paul and the Fed, nope, nope, nope, someone makes me talk about race instead.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    I want to get discussions started questioning the endless war on terror, but nope nope nope, SOMEBODY’s decided that we’re gonna be talking about race instead, because, I need to be reminded, for the umpteempth time, that there were these newsletters thirty years ago…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    *So* very tired of it. I need to go ask my husband to play some Scott Joplin for me on the piano. He has one very old original book of sheet music, which Scott Joplin has annotated this way:
    Strain 1 – “Panic in Wall Street, Brokers feeling melancholy”.
    Strain 2 – “Good times coming”
    Strain 3 – “Good times have come”
    Strain 4 – “Listening to the strains of genuine negro ragtime, brokers forget their cares”.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Irene: some questions –

    If you are tired of talking about race, why did you come back to the site and bring it up again?

    Why do you even consider black or white meaningful terms? People with dark coloured skin are originally from areas of the planet where it is hotter; people with pale skin from areas of relatively low sunlight.

    Africa isn’t a specific place, it is an entire continent with more than 50 countries and is more than three times the size of the USA.

    There is no coherent black identity, just as there is no coherent white identity.

    To reject more of your lazy stereotypes, not all people with black skin go to church; nor do they all celebrate Black History Month.

    Similarly, “various European ethnic festivals that feature curiously attired people (in liederhosen and such), accordian music, and plenty of beer. Celtic music and dancing… [and] Bluegrass music” are not “Celebrations of pure whiteness”.

    Sheesh!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Sorry, Christopher Rose. I’m tired of talking about race.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Besides, the discussion is kind of an American thang, you wouldn’t understand.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    (Okay I got up early to get some more work done, popped in thinking I’d have the dang place to myself I’m finished not not talking about race.Goodbye again.)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Christopher Rose, well. It looks like you didn’t accuse me of being incoherent. Thank you. I mean that. Now, so you will have the proper context for understanding #66, there was a time (can it REALLY be more than a decade or so ago?), when a certain kind of racist black would say to a certain kind of white (such as myself) who just wanted to be all-cross-cultural and why-can’t-we-all-get-alongish:

    “It’s a black thing; you wouldn’t understand.”

    Part of the emotional affirmative action plan, I guess. Maybe through the positive influence of Black Churches they cut that crap the heck out. And yes, in America, the influence of the Black Church is quite significant, politically as well as other ways. Certainly musically. In fact, you probably wouldn’t have had the Beatles if you hadn’t had Black Gospel.

    Now (maybe) you can appreciate the irony of the way (#66) I tried to tell you the following: while your remarks about blacks on a global scale are spot-on, this discussion is about
    race relations between blacks and whites in America, still strained because of our history, which, unlike the UK’s enlightenment vis a vis race, did NOT include a bitter civil war, whose effects still linger.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    …um….which unlike the UK’s journey toward enlightenment vis a vis race, DID include a bitter Civil War, etc. etc.

    All right. Will read responses, if any, much later.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    So, to summarise; you’re tired of talking about race but came to the site and started talking about race.

    Then you post a load of remarks full of lazy stereotypes and inaccuracies.

    You follow that up with saying – again – that you are tired of talking about race and then you make a racist remark directly to me, followed by a load of inaccurate, patronising nonsense.

    Hmm…

  • S.T..M

    So, good doctor, if blacks are from hotter places, are white-skinned anglo-European Aussies all going to turn black, eventually? Will it start in Queensland and head south, and be curtailed by the cold Victorian and Tasmanian winters. Will we be a two-tone nation instead of a 20-tone nation?

    I’m fascinated by the idea that white anglo-celtic-European Aussies spend most of their time trying to get brown skin, when all they have to do is … absolutely nothing, except stay here and let evolution take its inevitable course.

    Amazing.

    The rednecks and bogans will be telling their kids to stay indoors.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    “Lazy stereotypes.” I cannot communicate with this man. It’s impossible. I give up.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Stan, I’m no doctor, nor am I dreadful! You’re probably just taking the mickey but yes, given enough time for evolution to kick in, pale skinned folk in hot climates will turn blacker.

    Irene: “I cannot communicate”. There, fixed it for you!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Christopher frequently says the smartest things in a thread, but some people [Dave Nalle, Irene] have an immediate allergic reaction. It’s too bad.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    19 – The new American National Anthem.

    The new t-shirt slogan.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    wish I hadn’t chose the version that features someone’s paper plate and plastic fork…

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Story of my life, handy!

    ;-)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Cindy you are fairly objective, plus you don’t hate me. Was there anything in what I posted this morning that sounded lazily stereotypical?

    I will take it like a woman coming from you.

    I’m on my lunch break. Fortunately, where I live, there are plenty of Taco Trucks selling authentic Mexican food.

    Sorry if that was too stereotypical for *some* people, but that’s kind of what Mexican people eat. I enjoy it. If there was a Ye Olde English Foode Truck, I’d have NONE of their swill, no matter HOW hungry I was.

    The end.

    Except to maybe respond to Cindy, after the rest of the events in my busy day.

  • troll

    just learned that Ruvy has been banned here along with Irv and Alan…I’m a bit behind on the soap

    I suggest that you watch your step Irene

    as for me – I’m outta here pending lent or my next bout with tourret’s whichever

  • Clavos

    there was a time (can it REALLY be more than a decade or so ago?), when a certain kind of racist black would say to a certain kind of white (such as myself) who just wanted to be all-cross-cultural and why-can’t-we-all-get-alongish:

    “It’s a black thing; you wouldn’t understand.”

    Zedd still does. Right on these threads.

  • Clavos

    Cindy #75.

    ¡Brava, mi hija!

    Aprendete el idioma y también las palabras de La Bamba.

    ¡Ahora! Mañana hay examen.

  • Costello

    Irene, do Mexican people not count as a race?

  • zingzing

    ruvy got banned? what for?

  • Clavos

    Irene, do Mexican people not count as a race?

    Actually, we’re not a race, Costello, we’re a nationality; Mexico is a country which,like the US, is populated by people of many races and ancestries, including: indigenous people of dozens of different tribes, Europeans (including Spaniards, Germans, Irish, Brits, French, Scandinavians, Eastern Europeans, etc.) Asians and some Blacks.

    To call Mexicans a race is as erroneous as lumping all Latinos together as “Hispanics,” which the US government does. Hispanic refers to the Roman name for today’s Iberian peninsula, Hispano, and to lump all the people from more than two dozen different cultures together under one umbrella name is a travesty and ignores the numerous and significant differences among them. It’s ignorant — a hallmark of the US government and the provinciality of the American mentality.

  • Boeke

    Irv is no loss: his posts were merely prolix and not informative. Not even linguistically titillating, actually. Dry as dust.

    Sometimes Ruvy had a brief flash of insight.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    all-cross-cultural and why-can’t-we-all-get-alongish presumes that there is equality, when in fact, there is a dominating culture and institutionalized racism against poor non-whites, being white makes this difficult to see (we just think “our” reality IS reality)

    Note: I sill luv you, Irene. :-)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    t

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Clavos: My Spanish teacher taught me that the word Hispano, or Hispania to be more precise, was the name given to what is now Spain by the ancient Phoenicians and means land of rabbits!

  • Clavos

    Well, Chris, what I wrote above was what I was taught in school in Mexico; Wikipedia, though not exactly like either your or my version, is closest to mine, FWIW.

  • S.T..M

    Ruvy, Irv and Alan are banned???

    I spent too long away obviously over the past few months, doing a special project at work.

    What happened?

  • S.T..M

    I like Iberians, BTW … they’re good folk. If you don’t want ‘em over there, send ‘em this way for a time, and you can have our Chinese and Indians.

    The price of motor-vehicle insurance will immediately fall in Australia, you’ll never end up going slow in the fast lane behind a Lexus or Mercedes that looks like no one’s driving it, and India will stop complaining that Australia is a racist country. They can turn their wrath for every made-up imagined slight on the US instead (the most recent one being that a swimsuit designer put Hindu sybols on a swimsuit and obviously did it on purpose to annoy Indians).

    It probably helps if you don’t play them at cricket or invite thousands of young male Punjabi (alleged) hairdressers and cooks (yes, that was on the Australian government’s skills list for study/and/or/migration) in to sit for their Bachelor of Permanent Residency.

    An Indian once told me I was racist because I wasn’t keen on Indians, many of whom I find have a sense of entitlement and seem extremely arrogant (and I don’t mean Aussies of Indian background or migrants who’ve happily been here for a long time), but since I feel the same way about many Germans and Afrikaners, I asked if that made me only half racist. No, he said, only the Indian bit counted.

    Actually, I’ve been in cabs in Portugal. Maybe the cost of car insurance won’t drop. Oh well ….

    We’ll do a swap for a couple of years anyway.

    Give US your poor huddled masses instead of the poor huddled rorters who’ve been coming our way lately.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    There are many scientists that will tell you there’s no such thing as race, no scientific definition. This makes “protecting the purity” of something so amorphous seem even more irrational.

  • zingzing

    “To call Mexicans a race is as erroneous as lumping all Latinos together as “Hispanics,” which the US government does.”

    maybe sometimes, but i’ve seen the two separated just as often. sometimes, there’s “hispanic,” then “latino/mexican,” but i don’t know if that covers every possibility. nonetheless, “the us government” doesn’t seem to do any one thing all of the time, and it’s hard to call it “a hallmark of the US government and the provinciality of the American mentality” when it’s simply not true.

    if you want, go find a gov’t form or two. see if what you say is correct. i’m looking at one right now that says it isn’t.

    also, the us census, certainly a good way to tell how the gov’t defines “hispanic” and “latino”, says the following: ““Hispanic or Latino” refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.”

    it goes on to say: “The 2010 Census question on Hispanic origin included five separate response categories and one area where respondents could write-in a specific Hispanic origin group. The first response category is intended for respondents who do not identify as Hispanic. The remaining response categories (“Mexican, Mexican Am., or Chicano”; “Puerto Rican”; “Cuban”; and “Another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin”) and write-in answers can be combined to create the OMB category of Hispanic.

    all i’m saying is that you should at least try making your point with something true, as i’m sure it can be made without resorting to statements that aren’t true.

  • Clavos

    zing, youdidn’t even come close to my point: it’s not the stupid word it’s lumping us all together as if we’re all the same; it’s akin to lumping americans, Brits, and Canadians together on the assumption they are all the same. It’s insulting, prejudiced and humiliating (It’s OK, they all speak Spanish and are brown).

    Mexicans (for example) have nothing in common with Argentines except the language, and even that we speak so differently from each other that it’s almost two separate languages.

  • zingzing

    come on, clavos. what do you want? a category for every nation upon the planet (that’s kinda silly)? you seemed to claim the us gov’t thought of “hispanics” and “latinos” were one monolithic group, when it’s clear that they do not.

    if that’s not what you were trying to point out, i apologize. do you consider the whole category to be ridiculous (that’s what it seems like now)? or do you want more specificity in the category (that’s what i thought you were after)?

    obviously, when you look at those who would claim to be “hispanic” or “latino,” there is lots of diversity within those groups. same as within white, same as within asian, same as within black, same as within anything else.

    every “race” gets quite a bit of “lumping,” because race is a slippery thing. is “white” easy to identify to you? if so, why? if not, why not?

  • zingzing

    and you’re not brown…

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Isn’t a large part of what Americans stereotype as Hispanic ethnicity really native American ethnicity? And aren’t Argentines generally more European in appearance because they practically eradicated the natives historically? This is my impression; I may be mistaken.

  • zingzing

    there’s also all the african blood mixed into what is known as “hispanic.” that whole area is a confluence of white, aboriginal and black racial lines all mixed up to varying degrees.

    colonialism, interbreeding, the slaughter of lots and lots of people, and a bunch of other things created the “racial confusion,” i’ll say, although i don’t want him to take that the wrong way, that clavos is complaining about. no, they are not all of similar or even necessarily related blood lines, and even if the han chinese would complain about being lumped in with the japanese, that’s just the way things are with what we’ve come to understand as “race.”

    the minuscule differences between us bring up ridiculously enlarged emotions. i don’t think clavos should be any more “insulted” or “humiliated” by the “prejudiced” classification than i would be by being associated with germans just because my grandmother on my father’s side was from luxermbourg and my grandfather on the same was from what was then france.

    they weren’t all the same, but racial categorizations have never been about getting to the truth of people. taken for what they are, they’re just demographic information, useful or not. taken for what they’re not, they become something else.

  • zingzing

    truth be told, i’ve got a lot more in common with my black hispanic next door neighbor than i do with my first cousin in finland (mother’s side), at least as how our thought processes and voting patterns go. if the gov’t could quantify that, they’d get somewhere. cumbia, bitches.

  • zingzing

    and up there in 98, i meant that my father’s mother’s and father’s families were from those countries… both of their families were in america for at least a generation or two by that point, far as i know.

  • Clavos

    and you’re not brown…

    EXACTLY!! I’m not, and neither are nearly half of all Mexicans; Almost NO Argentines, Chileans, Colombians. etc. are brown.

    The ONLY commonality we have is the freaking LANGUAGE!! THAT”S IT!!! But your imperious (and imperial) government insists on treating us all as some sort of homogenous spic group.

    Tell Chris Rose you’re gonna refer to him as an American from now on because he speaks English and see what kind of reaction you get.

  • Clavos

    there’s also all the african blood mixed into what is known as “hispanic.”

    Actually, with the exception of Brasil, and the two Spanish-speaking Caribbean nations, (well, two nations and one territory) there’s almost no black blood in South America, Central America or Mexico, because it wasn’t necessary to import blacks; there were plenty of indigenous people to enslave.

  • zingzing

    clavos, i’m well aware of the diversity amongst the “hispanic or latino” grouping. calling it a “race” is kinda silly, and i think i’ve made it clear that racial categories seem rather strange on the whole to me. (not that i think we’re all the same, but we’re only barely different in the larger scheme.)

    but i think that we can agree, given the evidence at hand, that the us gov’t does agree that it’s not a monolithic group, which is what i thought was what you were trying to posit earlier. i dunno if you were or not at this point, but given what you initially wrote, i’m sure you could see how i would come to that conclusion.

    that they are classed as such (solely because of their language, you say,) should only give you as much displeasure as the fact that germans and british people and russians are considered to be the same due to the color of their skin. it’s all silly.

    and the visual evidence of that should make it clear to most americans that all “hispanics or latinos” are not the same, unless you consider them to be blind.

  • zingzing

    “Actually, with the exception of Brasil, and the two Spanish-speaking Caribbean nations, (well, two nations and one territory)…”

    well, that’s a big exception, and one that plays heavy around nyc. many students that i see, if i had to make a snap judgment of their race, i’d say “black.” but many of those put down “hispanic.” and their last names are generally names i’d think of as hispanic.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Thanks for you input Cindy. Troll, I just am not sure what I am going to do, I don’t know what is going on here.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Clavos, are you on a regular schedule of being the Comments editor? I think I’d like to schedule my visits to BC during those times that you are comment editor.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    78 –

    Irene,

    I actually missed that comment. My only response was to that sentence fragment where Clav quoted you.

    I haven’t really read this whole thread. (sorry for the confuzzilation) I will be sure to do so tomorrow.

    I am really unhappy about all this banning. WTF???? Why is Ruvy banned?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    And this is a song for Kurz and company, whereever they are, about blogcritics, where I have so many happy memories, stored somewhere in the ether.

    You might like this one, too, Ruvy.

    Blogcritics then and now.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    I don’t know Cindy. It used to be such a great place to talk. Well, I gotta go, too.
    Will catch up on these threads ere long.

    Yeah, I’d like your input on all of it. I don’t mind being criticized and argued with, because that’s what conversation–well, some of it–is about. Learning and changing.

    Cindy, how is your husband?

  • zingzing

    actually, clavos, having given it some thought, i do see your point. most other races can distinguish themselves within that race through ethnicity. but the “latino or hispanic” quote unquote “race” is not really anything of the sort. the gov’t does see the distinctions within that category, as i’ve said, but it still does lump them all together in some fashion.

    i don’t know if i’d really get that upset about it (what’s wrong with argentinians?), but i do see the idea you were after.

    it is a lackadaisical grouping of people beyond what the grouping of people into “white” or “black” is. i guess it must be useful on some level for it to exist, although i’m struggling to figure out why that is.

    so you were right, in your way, and i was wrong. but i’ll still stand by the fact that the gov’t doesn’t lump them all together as a monolithic group, although it does decide to group them together for one reason or another.

    i guess it’s just geography, which you could equally say is the fact about “asians.”

    whitey simplifies other, i guess.

  • zingzing

    irene! i love the beach boys. check this one out. the weirdest, saddest, most beautiful song.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Actually, with the exception of Brasil, and the two Spanish-speaking Caribbean nations […] there’s almost no black blood in South America, Central America or Mexico

    Not even close to being true.

    There are sizeable black communities in Mexico, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Belize, Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and Peru.

    This is obvious if you look at the soccer teams these countries field at the World Cup.

    You of all people, Clav, ought to be aware of this.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    It’s like music therapy for me right now. I will listen to one more song (thankyou, ZingZing), then I will go.

  • zingzing

    i think the one i linked it one of the beach boys’ best songs, so i hope you enjoy it, irene. van dyke parks and brian wilson is like two gods making a baby. and then killing it, i guess. but only half doing so.

  • Cannonshop

    #75 Que?

  • Cannonshop

    Proposition: Race Baiters tend to be useless people…AS INDIVIDUALS.
    Statement in favour:
    This is America, your intrinsic value is not determined by who your parents were, or your ancestry. It’s determined by what you DO-that’s the thing that decides if there is anyone who will mourn at your funeral, or wish there was another YOU available when you’ve gone.

    There is no value to your skin colour, or your ancestry, the trials of those long dead don’t validate your personal existence, nor do they validate your potential reproductive existence. Someone is white, great, it means their daddy could find the hole, and mom didn’t get an Abortion. that’s it. Maybe the rubber broke, maybe she forgot her pills, it doesn’t matter. Superiority is not due to race, it is due to action. Skinheads and Black Panthers alike tend to display themselves as inferior examples of humanity, as do Klansmen and La Rasa Activists.

    Okay, Zing, demolish my argument.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    In Spain they use the word Hispanohablante (Spanish speaking) and I am delighted to be a junior, not very skilled member of that group.

    Learning Spanish has been a real pleasure in many different ways. Not only getting to know my neighbours and understand more of the wider community but also a very different way of thinking that is far more experience based than process based, which is a characteristic of English.

    More surprisingly, it has also deepened my understanding of and feeling for English itself, which we are told is a Germanic language but, having studied German at school, I find far more in common between English and Spanish – both linguistically and culturally – than between English and German.

    I am extremely pleased to have learned some of this great language and culture, one of the world’s three most widely used languages (the others being English and Mandarin) and the increased sense of connection with and understanding of many more people all over the world it has given me.

  • STM

    Geez, they speak bloody fast, though Rosey … do you have to ask ‘em to slow down a bit so you can catch up?

    It comes out at a million miles an hour with all the words running into each other. It seems like there’s no discernable gap.

  • STM

    Clav, don’t the Argentinians have a lot of Italian words? It was one of their largest migrant groups way back.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Not been to any of the countries south of the US yet but they sure do speak fast in Spain.

    I’ve had to ask people to slow down and speak more slowly hundreds of times, which most people are really good about.

    It does get a bit easier as you get more experience but even now I sometimes get completely lost.

    They also have this weird way of all talking at once and I have no idea if they are actually listening to each other or not.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    My favorite race story…

    We were living in AZ. One of my neighbors (Arkansas boy he was) asked me what I would do if one of my daughters dated outside her race. I told him I didn’t know.

    I called my cousin Shelley. Shelley is a black guy who married my cousin Judy about 20 years ago. Judy’s a few years younger than me, we grew up together in Jersey. I was one of the few east coast Marsh’s invited to the wedding. Believe it or not, some of my relatives consider me to be pretty open minded about some things.

    Shelley’s my buddy. When I lived out there, we played golf together pretty much every week. He was my realtor too. I bought my house from some Tennesseans and you shoulda heard what they said when one of their neighbors told them that my realtor was my cousin!

    So, anyway, I called Shelley and told him what my neighbor had asked me…Shelley said, “Outside their race? You mean like a dog or a chicken or horse or something?”

    Honestly, until Shelley had put it to me that way, I had never even considered us all as THE HUMAN RACE.

    That may be why I come here. Maybe, one day, one of you liberals will say something to open my eyes. It’s happened before, it can happen again. But you gotta get a little better at ‘splainin’ yourselves!

  • Clavos

    @ #112 True, Doc, I don’t watch soccer (or any other sport), but this much I DO know, there is NOT a “sizeable black community in Mexico,” and what blacks live there now, are of VERY recent vintage — when I was a kid, I never saw so much as ONE black person, and I literally traveled the entire country — city, town, village and field — with my father over the years we lived there. Those black soccer players are likely from elsewhere, methinks.

    In fact, when we moved to the US in my teen years, one of the aspects of this country I found VERY different from home was all the black people (another, which was incomprehensible and disturbing to me, was the attitudes about them that were expressed to me by the whites).

    As for the rest of those countries you mention: I spent 30 years (until very recently) working in Latin American aviation and traveling extensively throughout the region, and the only country I encountered with a sizable Black population was Brasil. True, there are Black people in many LatAm countries now, but few (if any) are native born — they are immigrants for the most part.

    That said, I’ll give you Belize, which I don’t consider to be Latin American, despite its location.

  • Clavos

    More surprisingly, it has also deepened my understanding of and feeling for English itself, which we are told is a Germanic language but, having studied German at school, I find far more in common between English and Spanish – both linguistically and culturally – than between English and German.

    Interesting. In Mexico, my teachers taught me that English, along with Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French and maybe one or two others, is primarily a Romance language with Teutonic mixed in.

    In any case, you’re absolutley right about the similarities. I was lucky that my parents, who were inveterate classicists, insisted I take four years of Latin when I was a kid (though I hated it at the time). As a result of that, and Spanish being my birth language, I too see the similarities very distinctly, and am more inclined to believe English is more Romance than Teutonic.

    Interesting point about Spanish being experience based vs English is process based. Hadn’t ever had that pointed out to me before, but I agree with you.

  • Clavos

    Stan,

    Yes, Argentina has a VERY strong Italian flavor — to the point that in my experience at least, there are more Argentines with Italian surnames than Spanish ones. The Boca district of Buenos Aires is the “seat” of Argentine Italian culture and is a very interesting place to visit.

    There is also a significant British influence there, and at one time, (maybe still, but I don’t know for sure), Buenos Aires was the home of what I was told was the only Harrod’s store outside the UK.

    Buenos Aires, IMO, is the most cosmopolitan city in LatAm, due in large part to the “melting pot” aspect of the Argentine population.

  • Clavos

    Chris #120:

    They DO speak fairly rapidly, at least in comparison to how we speak Spanish in Mexico. When my family left Mexico, we moved to Cuba (only briefly in the end; it was 1958, months before Fidel’s revolution would triumph, and my father caught on very quickly to what that would mean, so we moved on after only a few weeks there), we had a terrible time at first understanding the Cubans’ version of Spanish. Puerto Rican Spanish is very similar to the Cuban version (though both deny it), but the Dominicans are easier to understand, at least to my ear.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    @ #122:

    No, Clav, you’re wrong (or Wikipedia is, and the linked article has a lot of citations).

    Although in a lot of Latin countries the black populations tend to keep to themselves (which is likely why you haven’t encountered them), they are there, they aren’t recent immigrants, and they are for the most part descended from slaves.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    In Mexico, my teachers taught me that English, along with Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French and maybe one or two others, is primarily a Romance language with Teutonic mixed in.

    English is the iconoclast of languages. It is basically Germanic, but it’s borrowed from and been influenced by so many other tongues over the centuries that it runs according to its own rules, and nobody’s even quite sure what those are.

    In fact, think of pretty much any grammar, pronunciation or spelling rule you were taught in school, and you can probably come up quite quickly with some valid instances where that rule is broken.

    For example: I before E except after C…

  • Clavos

    From your Wikipedia article:

    Approximately 5% of the Latin American population self-identify, or are classified by census takers, as being primarily of black ancestry.

    5%.

    And Mexico (my primary reference point) weighs in at less than 1%, mostly in Veracruz, which though located on the Gulf of Mexico, is to all intents and purposes a Caribbean port.

    Also from Wiki:

    Most of the slaves were sent to Brazil, and the Caribbean, but lesser numbers went to Colombia and Venezuela. Countries with significant black, mulatto, or zambo populations today include Brazil (86 million), Colombia (10 million), Haiti (8.7 million), Dominican Republic (up to 8.1 million), Cuba (up to 4 million), and Puerto Rico (20% to 46%).

    I mentioned all of these except for Colombia (my bad, but article also says estimates of their Black population “range from 4.4 million to 10.5 million”)

    They are a Caribbean nation, however, and I did miss that one. Haiti is not “Latin American,” I don’t care what Wiki says.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Yeah, if english wasn’t so screwed up, babelfish would work a lot better!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    5%.

    Counts as a significant minority by most statistical measures, Clav, and is a far cry from your original claim of there being scarcely any black blood in LatAm outside Brazil, Cuba and Hispaniola, and that what there is isn’t from African slave ancestry.

    That figure is also skewed because two of the most populous South American countries, Argentina and Chile, have only tiny black minorities.

    I mentioned all of these except for Colombia

    Yes, but you missed the country-by-country breakdowns in the Wiki article which give accounts of the origins of the black populations in each country. Some of those even link to more detailed articles about that country’s black minority.

    You can admit you were wrong, you know, Clav. Unlike some BC Politics denizens, I know you have the grace to do it! :-)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Andy, I quite often have to use Babelfish or Google Translate to decipher notes written in Spanish by my clients, and the results are usually amusing, especially since most of ‘em can’t spell.

    In my younger days I did quite a bit of original writing in French and German, and while it’s possible to have some fun with those languages, the grammar rules are still strict.

    English is the only language I know of in which you can write something that breaks away from normal grammar, syntax and word order and still have it make sense.

  • zingzing

    cannonshop: “Okay, Zing, demolish my argument.”

    why? no idea why you bothered to say that, or address it to me.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Friends have told me that Colombians are a bit snobbish about language, and that they consider Argentine Spanish to be a vulgar cowboy dialect.

  • Clavos

    Counts as a significant minority by most statistical measures, Clav…

    True enough when speaking of one political entity, Doc, but that 5% includes the 86 million (including mixed race) in Brasil, as well as the substantial Black populations of Haiti (95+%) (I know I said Haiti’s not Latin American, but Wiki included it in the group, so presumably its population is part of their 5% guesstimate), Cuba, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, etc., leaving the rest of the LatAm countries with Black populations in the hundreds of thousands and four with zero Blacks, n’est-ce pas?

    Oh, and I did leave out Venezuela, which of course is also a Caribbean country as well as Latin American, in my original remarks; its Black population numbers in the millions, also counted in that 5%.

    I think my claim of scarcely any Black blood outside these countries is not far off the mark, most have Black populations so small as to be invisible.

    And finally, there’s this to consider as well: (Wiki) The accuracy of statistics reporting on Afro-Latin Americans has been questioned, especially where they are derived from census reports in which the subjects choose their own designation, because in all countries the concept of black ancestry is viewed with differing attitudes.

    Thanks for your “grace” observation, and when I’m completely wrong, I tend to acknowledge it, but in this instance, my proportion of error I would estimate is only 5%. :-)

  • Clavos

    Handy #133:

    That’s true, but they have a right; most experts in the language acknowledge they speak the best (as in faithful to the mother tongue) dialect outside of Spain.

  • Clavos

    Oh, and almost all of us dislike the Argentines because they are very full of themselves — more so than any other LatAm culture. Illustrative joke:

    Q: Why do Argentines run outside when there’s a thunderstorm?

    A: Because they think God is applauding them.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Sounds a bit like an inside-out Polish joke.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I have American friends who travel frequently, and they say the Argentines are the warmest people they have ever met. They are not comparing them to other Latino people so much as Europeans, Asians, and even the famously gregarious Australians, who they thought a bit stand-offish, friendly on the surface but not interested in being friends.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Tomorrow, Irene…I will read. Long day today. :-)

    Hubby is hanging in there. Has to relearn the use of his left side. He isn’t walking yet. But he is making progress in very mall increments. I expect he will regain 90% of the use of his left arm and leg. For now, every day is a new day. We have PT, OT, Speech, Nurses and aids at home.

    I am really, really grateful that, in this world, despite the way people have created it, I do not have to go work elsewhere and I can take care of him. If I had to go out to work, he would be in a nursing home (or in our case, we would more likely be on the evening news featuring the wife who refused to leave the foreclosed house). I am exhausted, but it is a lovely exhaustion and I have a lot of help. I am utterly grateful every day for what I/we have.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Handy, I’ll second that. I love Argentina, and her people are very welcoming (even when they find out you’re a Brit) – although they’ve got nothing on Aussies, Americans, Irish, Thais and Cambodians on that score.

    The one big problem with Argentinians is that they do tend to have wandering hands.

  • zingzing

    i recently went to the argentina v us friendly in new jersey. messi is a monster. he was wearing little orange boots so everyone could identify him, and he made 4 or 5 americans look like fools several times. the man can just move.

    the first half was a travesty, with argentina messing with us like we were nothing. the second half, however, was much better, and we came away with a draw, even if we didn’t deserve it. either way, messi is a ridiculously good player… a genius, i might say.

    one of the best of all time, maybe simply the best, and i’m glad to say i got to see him in person. little fuck.

  • zingzing

    also, the “hand of god” play sucks, but the “goal of the century” kinda makes it suck less. he was a smart footballer, if not the greatest human being. argentina’s national team looked great at the last world cup until they suddenly didn’t, but that’s what germany does best. i would not want to face germany there. no more than i’d want to face ghana again. fucking ghana. what have we what have we what have we done to deserve this?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Yeah, those few minutes kind of sum up Maradona. One of the most blatant bits of cheating ever seen on a football field (although it overshadows the fact that the way he ripped apart the England defence to create the scoring opportunity in the first place was pure genius) followed three minutes later by one of the greatest goals ever scored.

    What a player.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    And Ghana may have squeezed America’s nutsacks until they cried, but speaking of great players: how about Asamoah Gyan in that quarter-final against Uruguay? Misses a penalty in the last minute of extra time that would have taken Ghana into the semis… then seconds later steps up to take the first kick of the shootout – and scores.

    Balls of steel.

    I could almost forgive him for signing for [spit! spit!] Sunderland.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Cindy–I’m glad I ran into you again. Listen, don’t bother going over the comments. Keep on being the loving support to your beloved that you are.

    I might run into you over the summer, Cindy.
    ZingZing, have an Endless One. :) Bye for now.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Eric H. Holder, Jr., the Attorney General said this about the US a couple of years ago:

    “Though race-related issues continue to occupy a significant portion of our political discussion and though there remain many unresolved racial issues in this nation, we average Americans simply do not talk enough with each other about race.”

    In conversations like these, where the goal is to reduce the animosity between adversaries, both parties are invited to talk about what bothers them, the things that stand as a barrier to harmony.

    I have not yet seen the venue in which a conversation like that is likely to happen, where both parties are free to speak their minds honestly, to move away from being what Eric Holder calls “cowards…in things racial.”

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    I’m tired of talking about race in venues that don’t encourage both parties to engage in that kind of discussion.

    A key role in conversations like these is a mediator, a facilitator, who is interested in the goal of reduction of animosity.

    Debates don’t seem to fit the bill.

    Well, that’s enough inarticulate rambling from me, I guess.

  • zingzing

    good point, irene. although i guess when people get stupidly offended over someone’s skin color, those of that skin color might get equally offended and maybe stupidly so.