Home / A Bible and a Bullhorn

A Bible and a Bullhorn

Please Share...Print this pageTweet about this on TwitterShare on Facebook0Share on Google+0Pin on Pinterest0Share on Tumblr0Share on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

An anti-abortion activist leads her child past the group’s signs.

Counter-protesters face off with ‘Pastor Mark.’

A bible and a bullhorn.

Spirit One parishioners, including young children, hold up signs. I visited the Spirit One website, and it says that every other Wednesday they bring their young children to protests and have them march around with ballons. “There is no such thing as being too young to participate.”

Protest leader Louis Goseland argues with anti-abortion activists.

WICHITA, KS– The atmosphere around 1515 Harry Street is usually pretty subdued. There are few restaurants and shops, slightly run-down, and a few other businesses. Spirit One Christian Center is also located on that street. It is a fairly typical building itself, boxy and functional. The only thing that makes Spirit One an exceptional building is the people who occupy it, for the parishioners at Spirit One are some of the most active abortion protesters in Wichita.

On October 3 through 8, Spirit One embarked on a campaign called ‘Operation Save America. OSA is an out-growth of the well-known Operation Rescue which chose to specifically targets high-school and college students for protests and demonstrations.

During the week of OSA’s regional event in Wichita, demonstrators came to Wichita high-schools West and Southeast and distributed fliers to students arriving at school. The demonstrators broke no laws, but many in the community were still upset about OSA’s tactics and about the fact that they targeted students.

George Harper, a student at West who was present at the protest was upset.

“They were harassing students and not allowing them to leave until they took a paper. We were yelling that they don’t have a right to judge,” said Harper.

Harper also said that the protesters disrupted classes, “They were there for about an hour after school started. They had their speakers aimed at the school.”

The brochures that were distributed included graphic pictures of aborted fetuses. One brochure said, “The bible and the 10 commandments have been outlawed, illegal, made contraband, in your public school. Your Christrian rights are being denied you.”

Another brochure had to do with Mark Tiller, the controversial local doctor who specializes in abortions: “Following the shedding of their innocent blood, he then places the children he has slaughtered on his altar to burn them as an offering to his god. This makes him a priest of Satan.” Below this message is a picture that looks like it came out of Napoleon Dynamite, of a lady handing a baby to a priest. In the background is a cackling horned demon, his hands dripping with blood.

Students at West High were so upset by the protesters at their school that they planned a counter-protest to take place at the Spirit One. Louis Goseland, an editor of the school newspaper and a director of the Peace and Social Justice Center, organized and led the protest. The event took place as planned on Sunday, October 9. Goseland was pleased with the outcome.

“At least three schools that I know of– WSU, West, and Southeast have come out to protest. We printed about three hundred brochures and sent out press releases. We’re just really happy with the turnout we got,” said Goseland. Several members of the Muslim Public Affairs Council were also present.

Goseland made it clear that the protest was against hate speech and not specifically in in favor of abortion. Some of the signs bore messages such as ‘No More Gore,’ ‘Stop the Hate,’ and ‘Hate is not a family value.’

“We came because we were aware of these people at the WSU campus. They were making hate quotes against Buddhists, Jews, homosexuals– and a lot of students upset,” said Donna Sibaai, a member of the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

The Spirit One protesters did not carry signs; instead they had two large billboards, one with a picture of a smiling baby, and another with a gruesome picture of a fetus. They also had two large faux-stone tablets bearing the ten commandments, and between them a large bell.

“OSA brought the bell,” said a Spirit One protester, “Every twenty seconds a child is aborted, so every time we ring this bell a child is killed.”

The OSA protesters sought to explain that they were not engaging in hate speech, but merely spreading the ‘truth,’ or the word of God. A pamphlet that was distributed references more than a dozen Bible verses to support their activities.

“Buddha can’t get anyone to the Father, Chrishna can’t get anyone to the Father, not even Mohammid can get one to the Father. … Either Islam is a lie or Christianity is a lie. Both can not be true,” the pamphlet said.

“God hates things,” said Greg Hedrick, a Spirit One member, “he hates sin, but he doesn’t hate people. And I think some of the people here have got the wrong idea about what we’re about.”

As generally happens at protests, both sides at times were ‘off message.’ The counter-protesters were heard to chant “Rapist, rapist” whenever a certain man spoke. One protester said, “There’s a rapist over there that’s over there preaching.”

When asked how chanting ‘rapist’ gibed with their message of tolerance, the protester said, “He’s over there trying to preach to us the word of God, and it’s kind of hypocritic.”

OSA protesters chanted, “Necrophilia is wrong.”

The Spirit One youth that were spoken to at the protest seemed very involved in the movement. The website gives the impression that there at least four church-organized protests per month, and says that many members protest more frequently.

“Back in 1988, my dad got involved in Operation Rescue in California. In ’98 or ’99 we came in Wichita, and we’ve been doing it ever since. Every two weeks we’ve been going down to Nevada, Missouri, and at Tiller’s Clinic, and now we’re going down to Springfield,” said Isaac Yoder, who is homeschooled.

Spirit One’s website says that twice a month parishioners bring their children to abortion protests. “Children carry balloons and celebrate LIFE,” says the website, “Then they are given free lunch of pizza or something similar. There is not such a thing as being too young to participate.”

Is there such a thing as being too young?

Mark McCormick, a Local and State columnist for the Wichita Eagle quoted a mother as saying, “Several of the larger boys at school helped to hold back these people, as they kind of ganged up on one of the school buses and were making the students coming out of the bus door take these handouts. … Our kids go to school to learn, and they should have the right to enter their school, without this abuse.” The mother also pointed out that students are forced to be exposed to the protests, since they must go to school.

“My kids saw that Truth Truck with the pictures of the aborted fetuses, and they asked me what it was, and you know, what am I supposed to tell them? I just think it’s really irresponsible,” said a father at the protest.

The OSA activists wore shirts that said, “Truth is hate to those who hate the truth,” and over-all their argument was that no one is too young to know the ‘truth.’

When the protest was over, both sides had yelled, exchanged pamphlets, rung bells, quoted the Bible, and played sirens. What neither had done was listen to the other. Eventually both groups retreated from the streets and returned to their homes and churches, preparing to battle on another day.

Powered by

About Leoniceno

  • Pierce R. Butler

    Bravo to Louis Goseland and his classmates!

    Dr. Tiller’s first name is George. The Operation Rescue/SaveAmerica people have been targeting him for years, and the movement they represent has done so for decades (including an attempted assassination by the “Army of God”). Did they really get his name wrong, or did Sam Jack?

  • Sam Jack did… I’ve corrected it on my web-log and it’ll be printed correctly in my school newspaper. I was mixing him up with the head of the Spirit One group, whose name is Mark Holick.


  • Brother Donald

    The students were pure hypocrites. Denying the anti-abortionists their free speech rights and harassing a church. They were the ones obviously filled with hate and they proved it by their actions. Innocent babies deserve to live and not be murdered by George Tiller. If they will murder helpless babies, I’m sure they are capable of any other evil thing.

  • tobra

    operation save america is an extremely dangerous group, i hope and pray the high school students will read their Bibles, trust Christ and not let OSA’s incorrect statements influence them. tobra, OR worker in 1994

  • Jennifer Swackhamer

    It is unbelievalbe that people actually get outraged at organizations like Operation Rescue, The Center for Bio Ethical Reform, sidewalk counselors…etc for displaying graphic horrifying images of what “choice” truly is in America…but the same people express NO outrage that THIS IS THE REALITY of what abortion does to a REAL LIVING BABY! The word ABORTION has lost ALL it’s true meaning in society…the ONLY way to ignite America’s consience is to OUTRAGE people with TRUTH! YES it is awful to see…YES it is a nightmare…YES it is disgusting…NOW do something about it! VOTE Pro Life and promote the PRO LIFE message! Get educated about abortion, the after affects on a womans health and emotional state, the humanity of the unborn child being torn to shreds at the hands of abortionists…IF WE DONT SPEAK FOR THE MOST VULNERABLE AMONG US, THE UNBORN CHILDREN, WHO WILL????

  • I don’t think that anyone ever contested these people’s right to protest. Of course they have the right to protest. They have the right to pass out their crudely drawn and frantically worded pamphlets, and they have the right to set up in front of schools with their posters. Does that mean that they should?

    It’s not like the students at that school are particularly heathenous. There are so many high schoolers with infants that the school has a day-care.

    I think that the pro-lifers authentically have a reasonable case that they can make, but no one wants to be that crazy guy on the street corner who is foaming at the mouth. If the goal is to change minds, the pro-life protesters do a very poor job.

  • tobra

    phillip benham is the leader of OSA and should take responsibity for his group’s actions. perhaps a picket at his house in concord, north carolina would be benefical, mr. benham has made pubic threats against prolifers so please be careful when picketing his house.


    The mother?

  • Guppusmaximus

    People always abuse something…. Parents that have no control over their kids who then have babies should foot the bill for that baby, Not the High School. The parents should home school them because now it just gives the other students bad ideas…Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions!!

    Pro-Life is a great idea but the burning question for me is,”What should a woman do if she is impregnated by a rapist?”

  • tobra

    give birth, don’t kill a child for the crime of it’s father.

  • oh yeah, and there’s a child that won’t have any issues.

  • tobra

    all children and all people have issues.

  • and there’s nothing like growing up with the knowledge that your dad AND your mom didn’t want you.

  • tobra

    there is nothing like a lot of things. you don’t kill someone because they have issues.

  • a fetus doesn’t have issues.

  • tobra

    a human fetus is a baby and babies have issues, survival is a big issue with unborn babies.

  • did they tell you that personally?

  • tobra

    i beg your pardon, i don’t understand who they is?

  • the unborn babies. Did they tell you that they have issues?

  • tobra

    it is called crying and it occurs shortly after birth.

  • Joey

    Babies are so adorable! I could never understand why anyone would want to harm one, let alone end the life of one. End the life, end the life… that’s harsh. That’s extreme prejudice.

    I agree that choice is an issue here, but I believe the key is when to exercise choice.

    Then comes the ‘ol rape scenario. Would capital punishment for rapists curtail some of the activity?

    It the baby of a rapist guilty of the rape?

    It’s complicated. But the babies are still adorable.

  • Joey, they aren’t babies, they are balls of matter. There is no life involved. Us living things(plants, turkeys, apes, humans) need air to live. Fetuses don’t need air, because they would sufficate in the womb if they did, therefore they aren’t alive. So don’t call yourself pro-Life, call yourself pro-Matter.

  • tobra

    my goldfish is alive and jaws doesn’t need air to live. the baby of a rapist, like the baby of a president is guilty of nothing.

  • Goldfish have gills, balls of matter don’t have gills.

  • abortion is not a choice, it’s an action…one makes a choice when one decides which action to take…
    there is only one other action one could choose to take when pregnant and that’s carrying the child to term…at that point there is the choice between two actions: keeping the child or adopting the child out, unless nature intervenes…
    the choices that follow the decision of carrying a child to term usually come with considerably less interference from all sides, a curious thing given the number of abused, abandoned, and neglected children in the world with no one yelling and hollaring on their behalf, but i digress…

    there are other choices in life as well, such as choosing to engage in activities like those in the photographs above or hashing it out with the opposition online — neither of which has ever proven to get anyone anywhere…

    for all the woulda-coulda-shoulda in the world there’s even more can-will-did…
    woulda-coulda-shoulda deals with both the past that can’t be changed and the future that isn’t even an issue yet…
    can-will-did is what’s happening right now, and right now there are people who don’t know enough about their own bodies and their own sexuality to make informed and educated decisions and choices…the last thing they need are people just as uneducated as they are yelling at them for any reason at the precise moment in their lives when everything is at its worst…where were these yellers when that person was making the decision that got them there in the first place?
    ah, but it’s easier to find pregnant people because you know where they gather…it’s not as easy to find people wandering around trying to decide whether or not they want to have sex…it can be done, it’s just not as easy…i suppose some people just aren’t up for the extra work…

    there does not exist a single reputable and accredited institution of education or qualified educator on this planet that uses guilt, shame, humiliation, embarrassement, passive-aggressive torment, emotional blackmail, name-calling, insults, yelling, fear, threats of any kind, or violence to educate students…these are the tools of people who refuse to accept that others’ behavior is outside their control and that educating others is well within their control…instead of educating themselves and others, they resort to the aforementioned tactics in much the same way an abusive husband destroys his wife’s life to insure her compliance — even if the cost is everything he married her for in the first place…

    every unwanted pregnancy started with unprotected sex…every unprotected sexual encounter started with a failed contraceptive device, ignorance of the human reproductive system, someone’s idea that a pregnancy wouldn’t occur, and/or apathy about the potential outcome…
    these are the causes of unwanted pregnancies and this is the starting line in the effort to bring about real change…any pro-lifer trying to win converts at an abortion clinic is nothing more than a vocal and disgruntled fan at the finish line of a race…
    no one ever won a race by starting at the finish line…yelling at the guy who came in second or third doesn’t change his running time, and continuing to yell at him instead of training him for the next race will do nothing for his run time come the next race…additionally, sending untrained runners into a race with the expectation that they will somehow win is just stupid — this is the dynamic behind abstinence-only “education”…
    see the guy who fell down in the middle of the race with cramps and a dislocated knee? his coach said he didn’t need training, he just needed to have faith and a mantra of “just say ‘no’ to preventable injuries!”…the poor, unbelieving sap…let’s go protest him as he’s being carried away on the stretcher!

    pro-choice advocates waste equal amounts of time and energy arguing with pro-lifers, and for many of the same reasons…

    if one is not willing to educate themselves with at least the very basics of physiology, anatomy, sexual development, biology, psychology, and sociology, and share that knowledge in a caring, understanding, non-judgemental way with their fellow human beings, then it doesn’t matter which side of this issue one is on, one is just a putz on the corner with a sign…

  • KJ

    Did we forget that the biological purpose of Sex is to create babies?

    I dont think that murdering my wife should be protected under the law because I dont want her; even if its my choice to kill her.

  • if the only purpose of sex is to have babies, then why are there people who are unable to conceive still having sex?
    are they wrong to do so?

    law or not, there are men who kill their wives because they no longer want them…the law doesn’t stop them…what would help is listening to a man’s discontent and helping him address his issues way before he gets to the point of a desperate act…

    in the same way, abortions were chosen by the desperate even when they weren’t legal…
    to prevent an action you have to adddress what leads to the first thing (unprotected sex)…to address the result (unwanted pregnancy) of the first thing rather than its cause is, again, starting the race at the finish line…
    who cares that you don’t like whose at the finish line?
    where were you at the beginning of the race?

  • the biological purpose of Sex is to create babies
    Actually, KJ, interesting side-note, most people have sex for pleasure. Shocking, I know. Most of us even go out of our way to make sure it doesn’t result in reproduction.

  • Also, any argument about whether a fetus is a baby or not is irrelivant. No human, of whatever age, has the right to comandeer my body and put MY life at risk so they can use me as a walking, talking incubator for nine months. It i choose to let a fetus use me in that way it’s one thing, but no person has a right to another person’s body, even if they need that body to survive.

  • Joey
    Would capital punishment for rapists curtail some of the activity?
    I love that your suggestion for preventing rape is to kill people… I am humbled by your respect for the sanctity of all human life.

  • tobra

    oh yes, a human can use someone’s body to survive, siamese twins have done so through the years. your feminists speech will work great in a muslim country.

  • your feminists speech will work great in a muslim country.
    Do you actually support the way women are treated by people like the Taliban?

    oh yes, a human can use someone’s body to survive
    So the government can take a lung from you against your will to give it to someone else? You shouldn’t have a choice what is done with your body on behalf of other people?

    siamese twins have done so through the years
    In that case each twin depends on the other to survive. It is mutually beneficial. In some cases it is parasitic, but then either the children are seperated and one dies, or they are left together, and both die.

  • tobra

    babies and siamese twins are examples. it is wrong to kill a dependant person, hitler killed his useless people and it is sad so many young americans follow hitler’s example. in muslim countries feminists remarks like the kind you wrote are usually not allowed. i do not agree with the taliban, nor do i agree with feminists remarks that promote child killing.

  • You still haven’t answered the question. Do you think the govenment has the right to take your lung to give it to your relative? Yes, donating the organ would be the right thing to do, but can the government compel you to do it? Do they have that right?

    hitler killed his useless people Interesting to see you think the 12 million people slaughtered in the holocoust were “useless.” What a lovely thought for Yom Kippur. (/sarcasm)

  • tobra

    nor will i answer your question as i do not like your rudeness. the policies of hitler labeled people. “useless” is a way to describe how hitler determined who was destined to be removed from his nation. there are other words to describe hitler’s victims. useless to hitler is one of them.

  • You won’t answer the question because there is no answer.

    It is right and noble to give blood, organs, bone marrow, etc. to save the life of another person, especially if there are no other available matches.

    Nonetheless, the government does not have the right to force you to do those things.

    It is also incredibly self-sacrificing and noble to carry an unexpected pregnancy to term. Women who do so, especially under difficult circumstances, have earned anyone’s admiration.

    Nonetheless, the government does not have the right to comandeer people’s body parts for the benefit of others even if doing so would be the only way to save a life.

    Also, you didn’t say “useless to Hitler;” you said “useless.”

  • tobra

    God will destroy nations that kill and/or allow innocent people to be killed. abortionists kill innocent babies. the babies mother is usually the one hiring the abortionist. a Godly nation would condemn her for child murder and the abortionist as well.

  • and that still doesn’t answer the question.

  • God will destroy nations

    Not to worry, we always have Halliburton.

  • tobra

    God is eternal, not the u.s.a. or halliburton.

  • nor, apparently, humor.

  • “God is eternal, not the u.s.a. or halliburton.”

    an acquaintance of mine says “i exist in a vacuum and imagine all things around me; prove i’m not”…
    God is only a figment of her imagination, as is the US and halliburton…

  • tobra

    you can mock me, you can make God, but you can not make the temperature of Hell one degree lower. God destroys unrepentant sinners and i hope you do not find yourself spending an eternity in Hell for your foolish sins.

  • wasn’t mocking you, was making a comment on nation building. But yes, I understand the fundamentalist viewpoint you tout. ANY different thought is condemned to hell. We are aware of your kind.

  • >nor, apparently, humor.< If you think abortion is humorous...

  • tobra

    you can think whatever you like, i don’t condemn anyone to hell. some people regard fundamentalist views one way and some another. i simple believe the Bible is God’s Word, accept Christ as my Savior and try obey God’s Word.

  • >i simple believe the Bible is God’s Word, accept Christ as my Savior and try obey God’s Word.< My dear God, is this man serious??? This is America, there is no room for God here. Don't you know that???

  • tobra

    God created this nation and there is room for Him and you, but when He removes you, you gone.

  • re: comment 45, you miss the point, it wasn’t about abortion. (The initial comment was, but not my response, it was about nation building).

    going back to the original comment:

    a Godly nation would condemn her

    Here is the crux of the matter. If you would like to live in a Godly nation, I suggest Syria.

  • >God created this nation and there is room for Him and you, but when He removes you, you gone.< (Ducking) Stop shooting!!! I am on your team!!! Freindly Fire!!! Freindly Fire!!! I was being sarcastic in 47 brother. We are truly ONE NATION UNDER GOD. We are the center of the world. Our Revolutionary Militamen were guided by God. We were meant to lead this world. We do so much for the world.

  • tobra

    our founding fathers as well. unfortunately we honor the minutemen for fighting in the war of independence, but so often fail to honor the people who defend babies from abortions. a fine Christian gentleman named steve jordi has been imprisoned and now faces being labeled a terroist by our nation’s corrupt government officals. steve has a wife and 4 young children and needs our prayers.

  • Tobra, if this abortion thing gets out of hand and we fail to overturn Roe v. Wade, will you answer the call and join the Militia to ovethrow these oppressors who are going against the public opinion???

    Stephen Jordi’s intentions were good, but that is not how we are going to overturn Roe v. Wade. But if it gets worse then we got to do what we got to do.

  • tobra

    a mutual friend’s execution plays a larger part in this and if paul hill is like john brown in american history, then civil war will occur.if paul’s executionis not a catalyst for civil war, then we can continue playing politics while babies are killed. will you help steve? i have no comment about the militia.

  • RogerMDillion

    “a fine Christian gentleman” doesn’t plan on blowing up building, tobra. If you pray for abortions to stop and they don’t, maybe god is trying to tell you something.

    Look at Abortion Grande. Talking about violent overthrow in this country. I thought you were going to Iraq. Provide some details on your masterplan.

    Imagine if you all focused your energies on the people that are living.

  • tobra

    many fine Christian gentlemen blew up buildings in the revelutionary war, why do you condemn steve? our first president killed many in war, you want to know my plans? they are none of your business.

  • RogerMDillion

    I’m sorry. How many people did George Washington kill?

    I condemn Steve because he is an evil, disgusting man.

    “you want to know my plans? they are none of your business.”

    Yet if you were going to have an abortion, you feel that it should be everyone’s business.

    In the Bible, it doesn’t say that the hypocritical shall inherit the Earth.

  • Guppusmaximus

    We have finite minds and will never fully understand God’s plan so we must live by his word and not judge or condemn others. You need to pray all the time not just when other people are in need….

  • tobra

    yes, roger you are sorry.

  • Rory

    “My kids saw the truth truck with the picture of the aborted fetuses and they asked me what it was…” I have a hard time believing that high-schoolers haven’t heard about abortion, it is one of the most commonly practiced medical procedures. If they haven’t heard they need to be educated on such a common practice, what are pro-abortionists afraid of? They’re so proud of the right to choose, why not show the effects of that choice?

  • RogerMDillion

    Wow. that’s some debate skill you have there, tobra. you must be right about god with that keen intellect you exhibit.

  • tobra

    i try to show Him some respect and recommend you do as well.

  • >Yet if you were going to have an abortion, you feel that it should be everyone’s business.< How come a doctor can kill a baby and you say it is known of our business, but when people kill those doctors then you guys insist it is everyone's business??? Look, blowing up abortion clinics isn't the answer right now. It brings us to the same level as the abortionists. Roe v. Wade will be overturned. But when worst comes to worst my argument will change. Also, we cannot kill Abortion doctors or blow up Abortion clinices in the name of God, because Jesus came here and made it clear that violence is wrong and is not the way to go.

  • RogerMDillion

    “blowing up abortion clinics isn’t the answer right now.”

    It’s never the right answer.

  • tobra

    i think you are wrong, i have never said it is everybody’s business when an abortionist is killed. like the resistance that fought the nazi’s in WII, killing an abortionist can be done quietly, in fact if you have no body you have no case is a good rule of thumb. dead abortionists don’t kill babies. in revelations Jesus leads an army that kills many.

  • Just in clarification with regards to comment 59, I believe that the man’s kids were younger than high school age.

  • tobra

    high school age is different in different parts of the nation,in some countries, girls 13 or younger marry, showing young people a picture of an aborted baby is very relevant. and many girls from other countries come to america. a picture is worth a 1000 words so they say, and perhaps the baby killers should use the aborted baby pictures to illustrate a sucessful abortion.

  • in some countries, girls 13 or younger marry
    riiight… but that’s child abuse, and we don’t allow it here.

    many girls from other countries come to america
    and when they get here, we don’t let them marry pedophiles.

    baby killers [sic] should use the aborted baby pictures to illustrate a sucessful abortion
    Doctors dont’ show people gruseome pictures of a person’s recently removed appendix to display that the fact that the surgery is possible. It isn’t informative.

    You still have never said why the government should be able to force a person to donate the use of an organ (in this case a womb)to save or support the life of another person. Does the government have right to force people to donate organs, or even to donate blood against that person’s will?

  • tobra7

    mrs. loretta lynn probably doesn’t like knowing you consider her late husband a pedoplile. a young lady married in a foreign country and visiting our nation is still married even at age 13. some doctors show post surgery pictures. you can ask stupid questions all you like, i shall not answer them.

  • I think it’s wrong for a person to get married when they’re 14. I really don’t care if that hurts their feelings.

    some doctors show post surgery pictures
    Fair enough. I think they’re probably trying to show how the healing procedes not shock people with blood and gore, but I actually don’t have anything against doctors showing pictures to women, as long as they’re doing so for medical reasons.

    you can ask stupid questions all you like, i shall not answer them.
    Honestly tobra7, if you ever want to change a pro-choicer’s mind about abortion, you have to address their concerns. Most of us will not change our minds just because you show us pictures of aborted fetuses.

    It may surprise you, but many of us (myself included) think carrying the baby to term is the right thing to do and that abortion is something that we, as a society should be trying to prevent. The problem is, most of us feel that the government doesn’t have the right to force a woman to risk her life and use her body for someone else if she doesn’t want to. That sort of concern is what my question is getting at, and you won’t get anywhere with people by ignoring those types of concerns.

  • At any rate, I’m beginning to suspect you’re just a troll anyway, so I’m out of this discussion. You aren’t interested in any kind of exchange of ideas.

  • tobra

    the Bible is more important to me than people’s opinions, if you want to kill a person to promote some idea of women’s rights, i think that is cruel and deadly. i am not interesting in debating medical issues. abortion is a killing, women are sacrificing their children to the god of convenience and the Bible says to get rid of altars of child sacrifice. sacrificing your child is an abomination like homosexualality. these practices are contrary to the Will of God, and need to be removed from america. you want t abortion here, then plain and simple, i hate you. advocating killing innocent babies is why i hate you. the Bible explains the reasoning, hope you will read and understand it.

  • nugget


    Jesus Christ did/does not hate anyone. God does not hate anyone. You should not (nor does the BIBLE justify you) hating anyone. The hate you manifest is your OWN.

    I believe abortion is wrong, but women are going to do it. I believe they are stupid for doing it, but they’re GOING to do it. Roe vs. Wade has more to do with the health and safety of the mother who would be willing to perform an illegal abortion than the fact that abortion is wrong. This is logic.

    Also, I have a problem with calling anti-abortion “pro-life”. If you support the death penalty, yet take a pro life stance on abortion, then you are clearly contradicting yourself. If you are pro-life, then you are pro-life about all life. Not just babies that are easy to love because they havn’t committed a crime.

    I should reiterate. Abortion is morally wrong. There is no question about this.

    An unborn baby is a human. It is not a parasite. It is not some newly evolved organ which has developed with furious speed to aid in specious adaptation. Let’s compare an unborn baby to a newly born one. A new born baby’s proportions are nothing like that of a grown man. It’s head is huge. Its arms and legs are very short. You get the picture. So presenting the following as valid, “a fetus is not a person because it likens a chicken or pig,” would be silly.

    The developing child inside a woman is exactly that, DEVELOPING into a person, growing. A newborn baby is capable of hardly anything more than an unborn one. It cannot comprehend morality, moreover, it may feel pain, but it is doubtful that any pain (including pain caused by death) would be of any consequence considering a) it would already be dead, and b) if it survived, it’s memory is not yet sufficient enough store that information. Plus, people aren’t afraid of death because of the attached pain, nor do we go on living because we are scared of the pain of death. To say “the fetus does not feel pain”, thus, is irrelevant.

    Now let’s assume the unborn baby is in fact a human. The pro-abortion stance is that the mother’s right to choose what she “wants to do with her body” trumps her child’s right to live. It is not true. If we assume this logic to apply in all walks of life, consider this scenario: I’m in a grocery store and see a woman violently beating her 4 year old child. Should I interject? It’s clear she may kill the child. No one else is around. Is it my duty to protect life at all costs at the expense of this mother’s right to beat her child? I don’t think so. I am arrogant enough to decide FOR her…for the safety of her child and what was once part of her in her body. Notice that I make no distinction between her already born child and one that might still be in her. The premise of this idea did not warrant a distinction.

    The real question is, how do you channel women’s (and mens’) thoughts and ideas concerning sex and responsibility? Sex education is an ominous task with which so many people seem to butt heads in its progress. Abstinence AND contraception use should be taught together. The validity and implications of both should be discussed. It makes no sense to brood and bicker over the excessive teaching of either because of religious or anti-religious agendas.

    Teachers must implant a practical awareness of the great RISK that is having sex. That is, not only is it an emotional roller-coaster ride, but there’s a chance you or your partner might get pregnant! They also must reiterate that sex is great and wonderful. It is something which should not be feared. Monogamy and safety should be the preferred topics.

    I think many of these issues are being handled quite well across america, but sometimes they are not.

  • nugget

    let me clarify my hypothetical grocery store situation. It IS my duty to interject. I typed “i don’t think so” for some mind-fart reason.

  • RogerMDillion

    “killing an abortionist can be done quietly, in fact if you have no body you have no case is a good rule of thumb.”

    according to your logic, and I use the term loosely, killing a fetus can be done quietly so you should have no problem with it.

    “if you want to kill a person to promote some idea of women’s rights, i think that is cruel and deadly.”

    yet you are okay with killing a doctor to protect a fetus’ rights, which it doesn’t have. by the way, you aren’t alone when it comes to thinking that killing a person can be deadly.

    “in revelations Jesus leads an army that kills many.”

    And a magic hat brings a snowman to life in a different book, yet neither one is true.

  • Here is an article on msnbc, I believe it is from today, about abstinance. A key note from it:

    A recent study found that teens who took pledges of virginity as part of abstinence-only sex ed classes ultimately had STD rates similar to other young people and were less likely to use contraception or other forms of protection when they did become sexually active.

    So we can assume they either end up raising a child in poverty, unprepared or they are the ones getting abortions?

  • Abortions KILL, “thou shall not kill”. Killing abortion doctors kills, “thou shall not kill”.

    Don’t ever kill in the name of Jesus or God.

    But even though I don’t want to see abortion doctors killed, I’d prefer a couple of abortion doctors die then have a thousand abortions.

  • the Bible is more important to me than people’s opinions…i am not interesting in debating
    Then why come on BlogCritics and comment in the first place? Did you just want to brag about your murder plans, or did you just give up on debating when it became obvious you couldn’t keep up?

  • nugget

    hey steve. I have no doubt that abstinence-only education is ridiculous and yields negligible results. I address you because I think most people on this thread didn’t read my above post. Perhaps you will?

    I find it odd that you would expend energy pointing out the obvious inefficiencies of abstinent-only ed programs. Wouldn’t you agree that teaching BOTH abstinance AND contraception is a good idea?

  • I did read your post. My thought is that abortion should be legal, safe and rare.

    why is it odd that I point out the inefficiency of abstinence only programs? Bush is spending 1 billion on them with the bulk going to very few states.

    My thought is that teaching abstinance only until marriage is a moral issue and therefore fit only for the parents to teach.

    teaching contraception is a health/social issue and therefore fit for certain classes like biology or, of course, sex ed.

    It should not be up to the school to say when sex is appropriate, outside of the consenting adult factor. (Meaning they can teach, don’t do it at least until you are of legal age. Beyond that, it isn’t their business).

  • Nugget, sorry i didn’t respond to your post before. Other people were being more incendiary, and much less thoughtful, and I was distracted.

    Now let’s assume the unborn baby is in fact a human.

    The pro-abortion stance is that the mother’s right to choose what she “wants to do with her body” trumps her child’s right to live.

    I am not “pro-abortion.” I have never met anyone who was “pro-abortion”

    It true that the mothers rights to her body trump her child’s rights to use her body.

    If we assume this logic to apply in all walks of life, consider this scenario:
    I think the scenario you describe is distinguishable, not because of the fact that the child has been born, but because, unlike with abortion, it isn’t a case of the woman’s bodily integrity vs. the interests of the child.

    I am not saying that the fetus is an organ. I am saying that the uterus is an organ, and that the fetus has to use the uterus, as well as the woman’s metabolic functions, to keep itself alive. Pregnancy and childbirth both incur risks and health costs for the women. I do not think the government has the right to force a person to give any part of their body over to another person, even to save that person’s life.

    I don’t think you can do whatever you want to whomever you want whenever you want. I do think the government should not be able to make you donate blood, or marrow, or lungs, or wombs to anyone, even if doing so would save that other person’s life and you are the only available donor.

    As to your comments on education: all I can say is, I agree 100% percent. Teach abstinence. Teach contraception. Teach monogomy. Don’t just say that sex is dangerous, because 10,000 years of human history show that people sill often decide that sex is worth the risk, no matter how high.

    If a woman is having an abortion, we already failed somewhere.

  • The question of whether abortion is right or wrong is a red herring.

    The real issue here is: does one special interest group have the right to force everybody else to do things their way or should people be free to choose to do what they want?

  • nugget

    steve: you don’t think teaching abstinance has anything to do with biology? You may find it self-explanatory, but to say that abstinance is only a moral issue is silly. I understand you said abstinance before marraige. But I didn’t. I said, strictly, abstinance. If you don’t have sex, you won’t get pregnant. I do not find that morally intrusive at all.

    also, I’m not talking about telling kids “when” is appropriate after they are legal. I’m talking about educating about the biological risk-related benefits of staying abstinent or monogomous.

    TA Dodger: Forgive the “pro-abortion” oversight. I was just typing in a hurry.

    I can’t help but think you’re saying that the government can’t tell a woman not to make her kid disappear. I understand that the fetus may be expensive, inconvenient, and tiresome for the woman. But you said it too, we’re talking about another human. We’re still discussing convenience versus life. Whether or not the fetus is attached to the uterus is still irrelevant. A rambunctious (sp?) child causes physical and emotional stress on a woman. This may mean she has to see a doctor because of her kid. Her kid, in that sense, is destructive to her health AND her pocket book just the same as he/she was when they were shacked up in her uterus. Does it really matter if that kid is physically attached to her? If so, then how? I simply don’t understand that point.

  • RogerMDillion

    Notice, nugget, that even in your scenario the man responsible is nowhere around. This is a woman’s issue. Let them decide.

  • nugget


    you typed: “I do not think the government has the right to force a person to give any part of their body over to another person, even to save that person’s life”

    I don’t understand why you are saying the “government”. In a democracy, people are the government. You are talking as if we live in a commune and the government would act adversely to the will of the majority vote. We are the government, (I say that in a non-cheesey way), so any comments regarding “the govt.” are superfluous in this discussion.

    I’m not trying to be nitpicky, i just don’t believe comparing forced blood donations to the outlawing of abortions is a very target-oriented facet of this discussion. Blood/organ donations (if forced) would encompass very few parallels to the issue of abortion which deals with the rights of two humans that happen to be connected.

  • nugget

    roger that’s a silly thing to say.

    Do I need my wife to type that for me for a stamp of rhetorical approval?

    Ok, suppose I were a woman and saw the same thing. I doubt the woman would say “kid had it comin’ to him”.

    It’s not a gender issue. It’s an issue that concerns humanity. I’m not arrogantly sticking my nose in someone’s business because I think I know what’s best. If you want to think that, then I guess you can, but you won’t understand what I mean.

  • RogerMDillion

    All I’m saying is that while men can’t completely understand the issue because it will never affect us the same way. We are bystanders.

  • nugget

    I understand what you mean, but you act as if men can have no judgement in this case because they can’t get pregnant. that’s like saying I can’t understand addiction unless i’ve taken heroin. The logic is still there. I can argue against heroin use without ever “experiencing” it because I understand the concepts of addiction, health, and self-destruction.

    If anything, women are MORE disposed to being delusional about the issue of abortion because it would be much more difficult to be objective if it meant YOU had to sacrifice and do things that were inconvenient in order to have a baby.

  • Nugget,
    The government may be “the people” but the “the people” have no more claim over my body than any other government. The difference between a democracy and totalitarian government is (in part) in whether or not they assert control over every facted of a person’s life, not whether it is alright for them to do so or not.

    If you prefer to look at this purely as a relationship between the two individuals, I think it works that way too. Needing something does not give you a right to it. My body is mine alone. No one else, including a fetus, has any right to it at all. You will say that the fetus has a right to life. My answer is it isn’t my job to save everyone even, when I’m the only one who could do it, and especially when doing so requires me to sacrifice bodily integrity.

    FOR EXAMPLE if someone needed a bone marrow transplant and I was the only donor, the person in need to would hae no RIGHT to my marrow regardless of the desireability of their survival. I think that example is on point because the person in need and I share the need for my bone marrow, just like a pregant woman and a fetus share an interest in her womb. As in the case of pregnancy, if I choose not to share my body, the other person dies.

    If anything, women are MORE disposed to being delusional.
    Yes, I’m sure it’s easier to talk calmly about forcing pregnancy on others than it is to talk calmly about having it forced on oneself. People around the age of 20 were also most likely to be “delusional” about the draft…

  • tobra

    abortion is a baby kill, using medical terms is what hitler did, the jews were seen as a parasite to the german people. that is why i will not debate the medical issues of abortion. Jacob have i loved and esua have i hated. yes, God hates people. i am not interested in debating all this, i have other things to do. enough has been written about abortion, fortunately others are drawing that conclusion.

  • that is why i will not debate the medical issues of abortion

    You came to website dedicated to poltical debate, and you began to preach about abortion. You were looking for a debate. If you want to run home with your tail between your legs, go ahead, but don’t act it’s because you’re morally opposed to debating the issue, you just aren’t up to answering other people’s arguments.

  • using medical terms is what hitler did, the jews were seen as a parasite to the german people

    People on this thread aren’t making medical argument at this point. We’re arguing about the competing rights of the pregnant woman and the fetus to the use of the woman’s uterus. Nugget and I, at least, have agreed to consider the fetus a person for the purpose of debate.

  • Not to mention, comparing things to the Holocoust pretty much makes you look like [a word that i’m sure is banned] automatically.

  • tobra

    i have taken the right to choose to answer what i choose to answer. anyone choosing to kill a baby chooses to be a killer.

  • Steve, your right abstinence doesn’t work. Why???:

    Abstinence is only mentioned twice in 7th grade. The point isn’t driven home. Abstinence needs to be EVERYWHERE. We need to teach it in 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade more than twice.

  • I am once again amazed to see the intellectual/mental/emotional level that the average anti-abortioner operates on. For an adult to “reason” that “abortion is wrong because babies are adorable” is nothing short of embarrassing and, frankly spoken, an indicator that there might be some mental retardation issues at hand. The same goes for those people who are opposed to the usage of medical terms, as they don’t appear to be supportive enough of their propaganda, and for people who continue to point out “similarities” between abortion and the holocaust. Somebody must have been sleeping in history class.
    Thanks to these types of people, it has become completely impossible to take the anti-abortion movement seriously. Stupid people simply aren’t scary.
    As an avid defender of choice, I am however thankful that the “opposition” is merely laughable, putting the right to choose in very little danger to ever be fully eradicated.

    However, there are some things about the anti-abortion movement that DO worry me. Having excercised the right to choose myself, I have become a victim of stalking, harrassment, slander, attacks, threats, and online impersonation by members of the anti-abortion movement, both online and and in real life. While it is good clean fun to laugh at adults who are so ready and willing to totally embarrass themselves through public displays of their childlike “logic” and missing education, radical anti-abortioners tend to lack all understanding of where they end and where others begin, and therefore pose a threat to the personal safety of many. While I have always been all for free speech, after having made my personal experience with these people and their “witch hunt techniques”, I believe that it would be in the interest of any reasonable human being to make it illegal for anti-abortioners to assemble in public.

  • tobra

    the reason it is not illegal for anti- abortionists to assemble in public may be too many judges, military personel and other americans are anti-abortioners. i understand planned parenthood offers tshirts that say something like i had an abortion. the cost you can obtain from the largest provider of baby killing in america today.

  • tobra, that is true. In America, many people in leading positions are against abortion. It is frightening when one begins to seriously think about it. To be against legal abortion is to be in favor of one of the most repulsive forms of violatation of human beiongs possible: forced childbirth. The mindset of a person opposed to legal abortion is no healthier, saner, or more humane than that of a vicious sex offender. Both, anti-abortioners and rapists, believe that for the sake of getting their way, it is right and proper that people be endangered, degraded, physically and psychologically hurt and crippled, and unspeakably violated.
    It is an absolute outrage that people with such a mentality, reflecting a total disregard for the rights, freedoms, well-being, and dignity of others, would ever be able to get into/remain in any leading position in any country that dares call itself civilized, advanced, and humane. The USA invade and occupie other countries, reasoning that it is their right to do so because these countries’ leaders commit and/or support crimes against humanity, while at the same time the USA have a president who continunes to be cheered for and celebrated because of his sincere opposition to a woman’s right to remain physically unharmed and to keep her human diginity. It is outrageous and disgusting.

  • tobra

    your comment is wierd, as a rapist is commiting a crime, it is totally legal to be against the killing of the unborn. being against abortion, is just that, being against the killing of an unborn child. a person against abortion is showing compassion for the unborn child and displays a regard for the right to life.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I’m old enough to remember when abortion was illegal in the State of New York and a bill was brought up in the state legislature to “reform” the laws.

    This was in 1970, before Roe vs. Wade was decided in the federal supreme court.

    There was a debate on the issue on what was then WNEW, Channel 5. One fellow speaking against abortion was a Catholic prelate whose name is not worth remembering.

    What he said is, though. “Abortion should be banned to protect good Catholic girls.”

    It was the dumbest thing he could have said. Why should a nice Jewish boy (once I wasn’t a balding middle aged man) like me give a tinker’s dam about Catholic girls – good or otherwise – if they were not jumping into MY bed?

    Judaism does not forbid abortion, as does Catholicism. Why should I have to swallow Catholic dogma and put a nice Jewish girl at risk with a back room abortionist so that some Catholic prelate’s precious “good” Catholic girls would not be allowed to have abortions and HIS church would not have to really educate them as to why not?

    That seemed wrong.

    Sexual morals in America were just a tad better then than they are now.

    But the bottom line is this. If fourteen year old kids have sex for pleasure, they better damned well KNOW that babies do result from sex. That thought should be on the mind of both hormone crazed kids as they strip their clothes off, hot and hungry for each others bodies.

    There is more to sex than the foreplay, clit tickling and mind blowing orgasms that American and European culture focus in on and use to sell products.

    This means that parents have to educate their children. They can’t get off the hook with garbage like, “the school didn’t do it,” or, “I’m too embarrassed.” One of the responsibilities you sign up for when becoming a parent is being willing to educate your children
    about sex, about emotions surrounding sex, about how to deal with the fact that sex CAN and DOES result in babies.

    I don’t favor abortion. I don’t believe abortion ought to be illegal. This should be a matter between the mother carrying the foetus, her doctor, her pastor and G-d – and the people who will have to provide for the resulting child.

    I do believe there ought to be restrictions, and I believe the law here in Israel should be more restrictive. But at the same time, it is imperative to educate a child about life, love and sex, and it is imperative to provide a strong support network for that young woman who goes through with a pregnancy willing to give the baby up, knowing that she herself cannot provide or it.

    As far as a pregnancy resulting from rape, the central issue is “does forcing the victim of the rape to bear the child endanger the health of the victim?” If so, IMHO, the embryo should be aborted. This is a question that can only be answered on a case by case basis.

    As for what went on in Kansas, I can only remind you that before your nation fought its civil war in the 19th (Christian) century, there were seven years of “Bloody Kansas”.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I ought to add that normative Jewish law concerning abortion concerns itself with the question, “does carrying the embryo/foetus to term endanger the health of the mother?” and that the embryo/foetus is viewed as “potential life.” By Jewish law, “life” begins at birth. This paragraph ought to have been added to comment #99 above.

  • Fenja: good words, bad layout. please use paragraphs so my eyes don’t explode!

  • Comment #99 was chosen as Comment of the Day for Tuesday 20th December 2005. Congratulations to the authors of both comment and the article that inspired it.

  • tobra

    when jewish law contradicts God’s Word, God will prevail. JOB 3:3 let the day perish wherein I was born,and the night in which it was said, there is a manchild conceived. just as the Lord can turn rocks into jews, he can strike down jews who allow the unborn child to be aborted.

  • It’s rurprising the Bible isn’t on the top ten bad fiction list,with crap like #103 in it

  • The Book of Job is unassailable literature. The cited verse is the wail of a man who has lost everything, and doesn’t have the first thing to do with abortion. Tobra appears to have read it while smoking crack.

  • uao

    Rodney’s right to call the Book of Job unassailable literature.

    When I was younger, I tried to read the bible starting from Genesis, and when I got to the list of “begats” I always gave up.

    Then, many years later, when life was hitting a persistant rocky patch, I randomly opened to the Book of Job.

    What a story! It got me interested in reading the rest again. Still haven’t done it cover to cover, but at least I no longer use it as a paperweight anymore.

    And tobra’s comment is just a mishmash, it doesn’t really mean anything, and Book of Job certainly can’t be read as a prohibition of abortion. Maybe tobra would make sense if he learned how to capitalize and use punctuation.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Interesting observations uao. I’ve always had trouble reading the book of Job – either in the Hebrew or the English. But I agree with you. It is unassailably literature, and nothing in it can be read as a prohibition of abortion. It is a book of wisdom, not a book of law.

  • tobra

    you can call God’s Word a piece a book or a boat, but when you stand before him you will regret not obeying His Word. and a baby is alive at conception and the old testament of the Bible will confirm this. any religion that denies a person in the womb the right to be called alive is going to be leading people into the sin of shedding innocent blood. the jews kill many babies with their unjust laws. in exodus the penalty for purposely causing a mother to lose the fruit of her womb is death. in the new testament, john leaped in his mother’s womb. a good man, paul jennings hill, saved babies from baby killer britton and on sept.03,2003, paul was executed by the state of florida. now it’s 20006 and forida is toast, God will destroy most or all of the state this year. watch and see. and for those that do not try to stop abortion, the Lord will surely punish as they had many opportunities to stop abortion in this nation.

  • It’s as much ‘god’s word as a Domino’s Pizza menu, not that either is not interesting or educational

  • tobra;
    In comment # 37, you said,

    “God will destroy nations that kill and/or allow innocent people to be killed. abortionists kill innocent babies. the babies mother is usually the one hiring the abortionist. a Godly nation would condemn her for child murder and the abortionist as well.”

    Do you currently know of any nations that should not be on God’s list to destroy? I’m curious.

  • tobra

    most nations practice immorality, england recently allowed faggot and bulldykes to have some sort of marriage ceremony, civil unions. canada and america have legalized fag and bulldyke marriage and legalized abortion, people say france is fag friendly and the netherlands too. sweden is allowing doctor assisted killings. many nations have muslim and hindu dominated religous laws, those nations violate the first commandment. hopefully some nations try to obey God with their laws.

  • And all these nations are eating your lunch – not America’s lunch, just yours.

  • The God you claim to follow isn’t the God of most people who call themselves Christians, BTW, or at least their perception differs.

  • tobra

    they are not, lies are typical from people who mock God and support baby killing and fag and dyke rights.

  • You’re lying – God does not love you anymore. He’s going to get on his Harley and come see you after lunch. He and you are going to have a small talk

  • I think I’m going to start a private foundation to subsidize abortions for the teenage daughters of OSA members.


  • tobra

    be sure and report this to the united states government as required by law, as girls underage 18 are considered rape victims in most states and if you don’t report their pregnancies you can be prosecuted in some or all states.

  • tobra

    God hates killers, fags and dykes.

  • Did you know the word fag has a completely different connotation in Asia, and England too? Actually two connotations – a cigarette and the end of something

  • uao

    Also a “faggot” is a bundle of sticks tied together. Learned that in the Boy Scouts (no irony intended)

    Fags aren’t permitted inside any public buildings, restaurants, bars, and offices here in California.

    Fags aren’t even permitted on the beaches anymore.

    Unless you keep ’em in your pocket, unlit.

  • And dykes are very important in Amsterdam – the city would drown without them. (It might be also drowning in them, but that’s another story)

  • Uao, check your dictionary again. “Fagot” is a bundle of sticks tied together. “Faggot” is a nasty term for a homosexual (like I was telling you something you didn’t know, right?). In my sixty year old Websters “New” Standard Dictionary, “faggot” is listed as a secondary spelling for “fagot.” In my 9 kilo unabridged versions of various dictionaries, “ar” is listed as an alternate spelling for “are.” That never helped me on spelling tests though.

    Life’s not fair.

  • Ruvy, actually Fagot is Old French/Old English. Faggot is the current usage

    From wikipedia,

    Faggot derives through the Old French fagot from the Latin facus (“bundle”) (see also fasces), coming into Middle English on or around the 13th century as a reference to a bundle of sticks or branches meant for firewood. It has also been used on occasion to refer to wood for funeral pyres or a burning at the stake.

  • tobra your god needs a chill pill.

  • Swingingpuss, it’s not G-d that needs a chill. It’s tobra.

    G-d – at least the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Israel – is a lot less condemnatory that tobra makes Him out to be.

    But when you read a text in translation, you generally do not know what you are reading anyway. That is why the putz of a preacher referred to in the original article is so much of a putz. He hasn’t got a clue as to what he is doing, and to the degree that he MIGHT be right in his theology, he is definitely WRONG in his timing.

  • Aaman wrote.

    “Ruvy, actually Fagot is Old French/Old English. Faggot is the current usage”

    Like I said – life’s not fair

  • uao

    To be safe, in the Boy Scouts and since, I usually stuck to “hand me that bundle of sticks”

    And no, nothing “fair” about life; with you on that, Ruvy.

  • And as you note, both faggot and fascist have the same latin root

    Just saying.

  • Ruvy, the big G more or less mirrors our individual personal belief systems- for some he is benevolent and for others a judgmental deity.

  • If your view turns out to be valid, Swingingpuss, tobra has got major league judgment coming her way.

  • tobra

    typing fags and killers and dykes burn in hell is often needed in a nation where preachers preach God loves everyone. just as followers of the islam religion are often called muslims. should muslims choose not repent of their false god worship, they will burn in hell with sexual perverts,liars,cowards and other sinners.

  • Let me get this straight then- every non Christian will burn in tobra’s hell. Hmmm….quite a party we are gonna have…who will get the barbeque sauce?

  • tobra,

    It may have not dawned on you that the people you have been commuicating with are NOT Christians and generally not interested in how you view heaven or judgment.

    This is a different point of view for you to comprehend.

    According to the Signs From Heaven web-site http://www.signsfromheaven.com, a soul once it leaves the body, is judged.

    What does the judgment consist of?

    Judgment consists of reviewing one’s life – through the eyes of those affected by one’s actions. So, every act done to you, the soul being judged gets to feel – from your point of view. Likewise, every act you commit, you get to feel – from the point of view of the person you did it to.

    The web-site is about an autistic girl, Galia, who was somehow contacted by her mother. The girl, using a special keyboard designed for the purpose, was able to tell her mother that she was the soul of the mother’s great-grandmother and that she had been sent back to correct errors that she had made in her own life. The errors were failures in educating her children. The mother was surprised to hear this. According to Galia, errors “up there” in raising children were very serious business.

    The description of judgment is hers.

    I advise you to go to the website yourself and read. It will open your eyes, tobra.

  • Ruvy,I can say this for most of us ‘Non Christians’ who tibro has been communicating with that we have no problem with his/her belief system up until we are told that we (homosexuals included) will go to hell.

    There is religious tolerance and then there is religious hatred and the last will not be tolerated.

  • tobra

    what is worse than being told you will spend an eternity in hell is arriving there. not believing in hell’s existence will not lower the temperature one degree.

  • uao

    tobra: So this “hell” you speak of… It is a hot place? Like with fire? How does the Devil live there? Does the Devil get to have cold things like Lemonade and ice cream, since he’s the boss of hell? Can God visit hell, or is it too hot for Him, too?

    Incidentally, there’s a nice lady in the Fatima thread I think you might hit it off with…

  • KYS

    I’ve never understood the inclination of zealots to convince others that hell exists. Seems to me that if you believe in heaven, you’d want to keep all the riff-raff out and let them just go to hell. Heaven is prime real estate, folks! Keep it on the DL.

  • tobra

    mocking hell is easy now, won’t be so easy in eternity

  • KYS

    But you and I both have the right to believe, or not believe, whatever we want. And I don’t believe in your hell, so I am not worried.

    You should know that when you use your religious beliefs coupled with hatespeech to defend your position you alienate a huge chunk of the population. You will reach more people without the fire and brimstone predictions.

  • uao

    I was mocking you tobra, not hell.

  • Bennett

    …and when I tell my wife that I’m going outside to ‘burn a fag’, it has nothing to do with belief systems or anti-gay lunatics.

  • tobra

    if i were the pastor of a large church i would be preaching love as it is popular with the paying customers. preaching that God sends sinners to hell is not popular, but it is the truth from God’s Word.

  • uao

    So, in other words, tobra, you’d be a hypocrite preacher. Just what the world needs another of.

  • Your God is not my, or most people’s God, Christians included, O Savonarola

  • tobra

    that is exactly what the Bible says, the road to destruction is wide and the road to heavan narrow. keep on sinning, hell probably ain’t half full. repent and spend eternity in Paradise. YOUR CHOICE is your choice because God gave you the right to chose.

  • Tobra,is the road cobbled? What are the best modes of transportation available? Is there any travel advisory? Does the great book talk about the local attractions of hell?

  • tobra

    the road may or may not be cobbled. keep living the way you live to arrive there. the Bible has travel advisories plenty. the attractions are always hot and the citizens are always miserable and realize they are in Hell for eternity.

  • uao

    Frankly, tobra, comment #142 is all anyone needs to see where your heart is at; you’ve lost whatever shred of credibility you had left (which wasn’t any).

    I’ll bet God takes care of bogus preachers right well. I wonder if Jimmy Swaggart gets to go to Heaven? If he does, hell starts looking better and better…

    Maybe Jim Bakker is there now, looking down upon us scoundrels.

  • tobra

    jimmy swaggert admitted he had sinned after he was caught with the whore. the second time, i am not aware of wether he has asked for forgiveness. the Lord is merciful and just and will remove our sins as far as the east is from the west when we seek His forgiveness. didn’t know jimmy baker was dead. coming home to a wife like tammy faye and expecting comfort from her would be hard on any man. easy to see why jimmy baker fell into the arms of his whore.

  • uao

    He had better have admitted he sinned, if he wanted to keep his meal ticket.

    Otherwise, the best he could hope for would’ve been carnival sideshows. Probably the dunking tank.

    Tell us some of your sins tobra… Ever covet the neighbors wife? Take the Lord’s name in vain? Dodge any bills (steal)? Bear false witness?

    ‘Cause you don’t seem very honest at all, and you seem like a rather dodgy character who doesn’t address questions very well. I’m not convinced you have the moral authority with which to speak.

    Convince me. About you.

    Jimmy Swaggart was a much more convincing speaker, so far.

  • tobra

    good, then listen to swaggert, i agree he is a convincing teacher.

  • uao

    Thanks, tobra, I’m convinced now.

    Good luck, podnuh!


  • tobra, do you berate people in real life also or is banging the online pulpit your current hobby?

  • tobra

    only when i have the time to spare to the online. americans had plenty of opportunity to read the Bible and obey it. unlike other countries, in this nation God’s Word is easily obtained. unfortunately americans chose not to obey God’s Word and were foolish enough to kill a good man with a definitive plan to stop abortion. his name was paul jennings hill. the chance for america to escape the sword of God’s judgment are over. florida is toast, perhaps all the faggots,dykes,perverts,killers,cowards and the entire jeb bush family will move there.

  • Luckily, god’s missing, possibly in action, so no worries there, tobra…

  • tobra, I studied in a Catholic school back in India where the majority of students were Hindus.

    The word of God was part of our curriculum – Christians went to catechism and we had ‘moral science’.

    There are subtle ways of spreading the word or should I say sowing the seeds.

    People respond better to dialogues than admonishes.

  • ClubhouseCancer

    Tobra, you speak in support of a murderer like Paul Hill, the assfuck Presbyterian minister who was put to death a few years ago for killing a doctor and his bodyguard with a shotgun. He also shot the doctor’s wife.

    Maybe because of the profane, annoying, sub-retarded puke you spit out here, some folks will look further into the history of the moronic Christian terrorist Paul Hill and conclude that you and those like you are just subsocial criminals.

    Your “opinions” are disgusting and completely immoral, and your writing show signs of mental retardation, or perhaps just Christian home-schooling.

    I love fags, dykes, perverts, liars and muslims.

  • ClubhouseCancer

    And Jews. And rocks.

  • tobra

    rev. hill nver sodomized you or any other pervert. you have your facts wrong.britton’s wife, if he had one, was not in the pickup truck. army of god, prolife virgina, streetpreach.some of the web sites with information about paul hill. going to a catholic school, they teach mary died a virgin, which is not what happened, she had other children after Jesus.He was the only child mary gave birth too, that was virgin born.

  • ClubhouseCancer

    Oh, I see. Retardation AND Christian home-schooling.

  • KYS

    Florida is toast? What’s going to happen? Let’s document a prediction. Please include a time frame. We’ll all meet back here after that to compare notes.

  • tobra

    before 2006 is over a large number of people living in florida will die. and also mrs. phillip (flip) benham will be destroyed before 2006 turns into 2007 and yourself, KYS. not by my hand, but by God’s.

  • the cubs will win the world series too.

  • KYS

    Okay. I’m off to go buy some boots so I can shake in them.

  • ClubhouseCancer

    Tobra has now wished death on a member of BC. Fuck you, Tobra. I plead with everyone to end this thread now. Commenting wth a sick moron like Tobra is useless.

  • Nancy

    We really need to hook Tobra up with Mary aka Catherine Reynolds; it’s a match made in psychosis heaven.

  • KYS

    Don’t take Torba too seriously. If he/she had any actual prediction he/she would have clued us in. The attack is an obvious attempt to dodge the question.

    I say we all meet in Florida for spring break 2007!!!

  • Fenja

    After reading tobras comments on gays and the such, I am convinced that he cannot be real. It must be somebody joking about being a freak or something.