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300 Million American Souls

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According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the population of the land of the free and the home of the brave officially hit 300 million at 7:46 a.m. EDT on Tuesday, October 16, 2006.

The Census Bureau, which uses administrative records and surveys to estimate monthly averages for the births, deaths, and net immigration that occur between its decennial surveys, has a “population clock” that estimates a birth every 7 seconds, a death every 13 seconds, and a new immigrant every 31 seconds, for a total of one new American every 11 seconds.

The growth rate of the United States is less than one percent, with the population increasing by about 2.8 million people per year. Around 40 percent of our growth comes from immigration — the Census Bureau includes illegal immigrants in its official population estimates — while the rest comes from births outnumbering deaths.

America’s population reached 100 million in 1915, and 200 million in 1967. During the last 39 years in which the U.S. population increased by 100 million souls, the entire world population grew from 3.5 billion to 6.5 billion.

In its population growth, the U.S.A. stands alone among industrialized nations, having grown by 13% during the 1990s, which is five times the average of other developed countries.

We are the world’s third most populous nation, behind the burgeoning economic superpowers of China (1.31 billion) and India (1.09 billion).

According to Census Bureau estimates, the U.S. population is expected to reach 400 million by 2043.

Celebration

When America’s population reached 100 million in 1915, the milestone was celebrated as a sign of the nation’s economic and geopolitical might in the world.

When our population surpassed 200 million in 1967, cheers rang through the lobby of the Commerce Department, and President Lyndon B. Johnson’s celebratory speech was interrupted by many bursts of enthusiastic applause. Life magazine found a baby boy born in Atlanta at the exact moment, and dispatched photographers and reporters to anoint him as the 200 millionth American.

Now that we’ve reached the 300 million mark, Census Bureau employees observed the occasion with cake and punch.

Today’s population growth is driven by immigration almost as much as by births and many are speculating that the 300 millionth American did not arrive in a maternity ward, but from across the Mexican border.

In light of the past year’s controversy over how to handle the estimated 11 to 12 million immigrants here illegally, and the midterm elections being only weeks away, the lack of government-sponsored hoopla is somewhat understandable.

Doomsayers

Environmentalist and anti-immigration groups do not see America as a robust and flourishing nation, but rather as one whose growth and consumption are spiraling out of control, threatening the purity of our air, water, and food — and the complexion of our demographics.

The environmentalists lament that our wildernesses are being paved over to make room for “urban sprawl.” They are concerned that more traffic burning fossil fuels will cause an increase of greenhouse gas emissions that are widely believed to be a cause of global warming.

Anti-immigration groups complain that many of our communities appear to be changing almost overnight as schools and roads become increasingly crowded with Spanish-speaking people. They are worried because immigrants, legal and illegal, account for about 40% of our population growth, and that Hispanics from Latin America account for the largest share of immigrants. Some fear that these trends could result in “Anglos” becoming a minority here — as if that would be a Bad Thing.

Internecine Immigration Incongruence

The ongoing immigration controversy is a product of politics, not economic pragmatism, which is why there are between 11 and 12 million illegal immigrants working here, regardless of immigration policies that serve the ambitions of politicians whose constituencies are not quite ready to embrace the ethnic and cultural and plurality that is America.

Few people will argue that illegal immigration isn’t a problem that needs to be reduced, not only for the sake of the rule of law, but for the welfare of the workers who are exploited by unscrupulous businesses looking for cheap labor that is unregulated, undocumented, and unprotected.

Dealing with the 11-12 million illegal immigrants who are already here filling 11-12 million jobs should, in theory, be a manageable problem, considering the basic laws of supply and demand, and the fact that when America absorbed large waves of immigrants in the past, our economy and culture were enriched.

However, the notion of granting some form of amnesty to illegal immigrants — no matter how economically beneficial that could be — presents a moral conundrum. Is it fair and just to show clemency toward those who broke the law to enter America after so many other people immigrated here via the proper, legal channels?

Of course it isn’t fair! But that doesn’t solve the actual economic problem at hand, which is that our immigration policies are in need of realistic and practical reform so that jobs that need to be filled can be filled legally, and with workers who enjoy the protections and benefits of documented work.

A workable compromise would be a system in which illegal immigrants and the businesses that hire them are fined, and then given a chance to comply with the law or face increasingly severe penalties for repeat offenses.

But that idea is unappealing to those whose pride, prejudice, and pretentiousness make them more concerned with demographics than current economic realities. For such people, the ingredients in America’s melting pot have taken on too much of a Latino flavor.

Thus the ongoing immigration controversy that actually has very little to do with securing our borders against a surplus of labor, and more to do with fear of the minority-majority state.

Environmental Efficiency

The hand-wringing pessimism of environmentalists and city dwellers who complain that humanity is crowding out and paving over Mother Nature belies the fact that America still has plenty of wide-open spaces.

A mere 84 people per square mile means we have a lot of room left for growth inside our 3,537,438.44 square miles of land area. Considering that there are about 300 people per square mile in the European Union, and almost 900 people per square mile in Japan, the U.S. is comparatively under populated.

It’s not the actual size of our population that causes environmental problems, but rather how people are distributed. A little more than half of the U.S. population is clustered in cities and along the coasts, while large swaths of the country are struggling to keep their populations from shrinking. For example, there are 6 million people living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area of Texas, which is nearly twice the entire population of the nearby state of Oklahoma.

As more people move away from crowded cities and into the suburbs, land use is becoming less efficient. Single-use zoning and low-density land use have created car dependent communities, which have lead to more traffic and emissions.

The solution to the environmental impact of our increasing population is not the limitation of growth, but more efficient planning, such as the implementation of “smart growth,” policies that encourage compact land use patterns, optimal access to public transportation, pedestrian-friendly and bicycle-friendly roads, and mixed-use development.

Smart growth principles are focused upon the total long-term economics of development, rather than the short term profits of improving individual parcels of land, so they are a hard sell to developers whose priorities are minimizing costs and maximizing revenues for their investors, not preparing environmental impact assessments that may oblige them to cover the potentially high expense of mitigating the environmental impact of their development projects.

Policy-makers, in their efforts to challenge obsolete ideas of urban planning (such as the need for more single-family homes that necessitate more prevalent automobile usage), must provide financial incentives to developers in order to negate any perceived need for authoritarian restrictions on free enterprise.

If smart growth is profitable to developers, they will not only implement those techniques in their future projects, they will promote the idea in their marketing collaterals.

Auspicious Abundance

Contrary to popular pessimism, America’s growth is a Good Thing. Many demographers believe that our reaching the 300 million milestone shows that America, in spite of our image around the world being momentarily tarnished by the inconsistent progress of the war in Iraq, is an economically powerful republic that is admired in most of the world.

“As almost nothing else can, immigration-led growth signals the attractiveness of the American economy and polity,” says Kenneth Prewitt, a former head of the Census Bureau and now professor of public affairs at Columbia University. “You don’t see large numbers of immigrants clamoring to move to China.”

Stagnant populations, such as those of Japan and some European countries, will face severe retirement crises in the future. Sub-replacement fertility rates are leading to a situation in which there will not be enough young workers to support retirees. It should also be noted that their populations are not growing as fast as ours through immigration because they are not creating as many jobs.

The fact that the U.S. population is growing faster via immigration than other developed nations will allow us to better deal with the financial pressures of an aging population whose life expectancy has climbed from 71 to 78 years since 1967. Immigrants and their children will help reduce funding shortfalls for Social Security, Medicare, and other social programs that benefit older people.

In the past 80 years, America has experienced both explosive population growth and unprecedented prosperity, in spite of major wars and a decade-long economic depression. In more recent times, our resilient economy has survived the September 11 attacks, rising oil and commodity prices, increased global competition, corporate scandals, and the geopolitical risks associated with the war in Iraq and nuclear proliferation.

On Wednesday October 18, 2006 the Dow Jones industrial average rose above 12,000 for the first time in its 110-year history. And if history is any indication, the stock market will continue to grow at a significantly faster rate than the population because businesses and workers are steadily becoming more productive due to the accelerating rate of our technological progress.

American innovation, a product of our ever-expanding diversity, has brought us prosperity, even through the toughest of times. Our technology has improved our overall quality of life, with advances in medical science that have increased our longevity while decreasing our infant mortality rate, and exponential progress in transportation and telecommunications that has made us smarter and more efficient and productive.

In the future, it will be our inventiveness and entrepreneurial spirit that will see us through to the 400 million milestone, and beyond — regardless of the foreboding exhortations of doomsayers, crepehangers, defeatists, and cynics who think pessimism is synonymous with realism.

So here’s to 300-plus American souls, among whom could be the doctors who will discover the cures for cancer, diabetes, and AIDS; the engineers who will negate our need for fossil fuels, and the national leaders who will diplomatically and peacefully spread the American vision of freedom and prosperity throughout the world.

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About Margaret Romao Toigo

  • Sgtmajorbrad

    Here is another example of someone touting a biased version in favor of open borders and amnesty to the invasion across our borders without any empiricle data to substantiate her claims. In reality all of the available data contradicts her position as illegal immigration is a menace to our society. What is also conviently absent is any statistical data from our government. Why? because there is none or it is sanitized so as not to offend a minority. Use criminal statistics as an example. THe hispanic population is lumped in with the caucasian or white race to prevent objections by certain individuals. These are not my words they are of the FBI. With great effort and using the census statistics you can extrapulate that this country’s hispanic crime is much higher than that of white criminals. What is also conveniently missing are any statistics concerning the need for immigrant labor. The government has many programs to use immigrant labor but publishes no statistical information on their use. It is much more profitable and easier to hire an illegal alien then go through the red tape of a government program. You would think that the immigration proponents and employers would be touting this statistical government data as the information to prove the need for immigrant labor when in fact I know of no government program that realistically forcasts the need for immigrant labor. All through the senate debates no one provided actual figures of requests for immigrant labor let alone the usage of the existing programs. Amnesty advocates preach their sermon that that action is the humane way to resolve the 11-12 million illegal residents. What is humane about burdening our health care system into insolvency. This country would be better served by enforcing our existing immigration laws. That means dragging the sanctuary lady out of the church by her hair and strapping her butt in a one way bus seat to her country along with the other freeloaders hidden in plain view. Cut off all federal funding for sanctuary cities and make the employers liable for all court and transportation costs to deport the illegal alien in addition to substantial penalties to make them think twice of hiring another illegal alien. My advice to the illegal alien is leave, get in line and get legal.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Sgtmajorbrad, when I write news articles, I make an effort to be fair and balanced. However, when I write editorials, I editorialize. In other words, this is an opinion piece, it’s supposed to be biased.

    I don’t believe in the pseudoscientific concept of “race.” We’re all humans here, and we come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, colors, and styles. Cultural differences, which are often mistaken for manifestations of the archaic notion called “race,” are based upon geography, not genetics.

    Resolving our immigration situation is not just a matter of compassion, it is a matter of economics, and our economy is not served by the reduction of our numbers, nor by the denial of the existence of 11-12 million people working 11-12 million jobs.

  • Arch Conservative

    Can you please explain to me how or economy is served by millions of illegals recieving healthcare they don’t pay for Margaret?

    How is our economy served by millions of illegals sending billions of American dollars to central and south America every year?

    How is our economy served by illegals recieving social welfare services for which they pay no taxes?

  • ASSIMULATE NOW

    If we don’t do something now we will all have to learn various languages. There should be one language spoken in America and that is ENGLISH. There should also be one culture and that is American. I can’t believe we cater to all this bull#$!@ and the fact that we have to pay for it blows.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Arch Conservative, our economy is ill-served when we fail to recognize that those millions of people are filling millions of jobs and that our immigration quotas ought to reflect that as green is the only color with which economics is concerned.

    Now, if you are concerned about these people being a drain upon our resources, you should support amnesty for illegal immigrants so that they may become legal, get health insurance, and pay taxes.

    That way, they pay their fair share toward social services, and they will pay taxes on the money they send to their families in Central and South America.

    But the practical, economic solution is very unpopular with folks like ASSIMULATE NOW and Sgtmajorbrad, who appear to be more concerned about state our demographics than they are about the state of our economy.

  • Zedd

    Toigo:

    Well written piece. It is concise. Great explaination of what could be tricky demographic basics. It took my professor in University a third of a semester to explain what you stated in just a few lines. Bravo

    I enjoy your balanced aproach and the logic. We miss logic.

    I will have to perculate over the suggestions that you propose, punch a few holes in them here and there to see if they stand up before I decide to grab on to your solution as my very own :o)

  • Zedd

    Toigo:

    I do however have to say that there is a responsibility that comes with being a citizen within this fragile experiment that we exist in.

    I am concerned about the affects of the low education emphasis within the Mexican pupulation (Mexican immigration in my neck of the woods). The children start off really well in elementary school. In the large near coastal metropolis that I live in, the parents are EXTREMELY involved in careing for their children. They walk them to the door step and eat lunch with them (putting the most dotting soccer moms to shame). Once the children hit Middle School, ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE. The kids go wild. I’ve had teachers tell me that the kids turn in tests with grades of 13 and 10, consistantly. I didn’t know that was possible. Driving by the school I’d see several kids under portables hiding during school, waiting for their chance to run, DAILY. I’m talking about TWELVE YEAR OLDS. On choir nights the girls (babys) are dressed extremely SEXY like the people on those tv shows that we drop our mouths at when we switch channels. The same girls who were little angels a year before. Its as if they are given complete atonomy. I went to pick up my child on the first day of Middle school and it was like a war zone. The same SWEET kids she went to elementary with had LOST THIER MINDS and turned into gangster-wanna-be’s.

    I hate the suburbs but I moved within 6months.

    The crime rate in this near coastal metropolis is insane. New types of crime. Gang initiations are causing havoc.

    While the immigrants themselves are SALT of THE EARTH hard working people, thier children are hellions.

    We will not have the type of economy that we had in the 40’s to employ the large numbers of unskilled 7th grade drop outs in the very near future. They will not be satisfied with their parents wages. What will happen? I am scared. People are scared.

    Also, you and I know that in a lot of economically challanged countries the law is often not present in day to day life so people gerririg everything Building codes, car permits, etc, forget it. You just do what you have to do. This mentality has creeped in with the new immigration.

    Have the pro amnesty groups come up with solutions for undoing the issues which will make this population even more dreaded and iagainst AND cause an enormous destablization to the American culture.

    People are seriously afraid and have very valid reasons to be.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    as always Margaret, an excellent Read…

    one Variable to add to an already dizzying Equation…

    i contend that there is an artificial downward pressure on domestic hourly wages directly resultant from blackmarket illegal labor

    this has caused a drastic skewing of the primary market forces when it comes to the cost of labor, and thus the prices paid for said labor artificially decline in relationship with actual purchasing power

    just a Thought

    Excelsior?

  • Zedd

    Margaret:

    I would also add that the biggest mistake that the immigrant proponants would make is to focus on discrimination. While it is there and is abhorant, it will be a waiste of energy. African Americans made it a priority moreso than focusing on picking themselves up and they are still paying the price for it. Unfortunately, for AA’s it was necessary for them to make the demands that they did in the manner that they did because we have the democratic world that we do now (world over) because of their sacrifices. But were they able to pursue their goals in todays climate, the focus would have to be different in order to attain the best result for themselves.

    While its only natural, we all want to be accepted, you really cant force people to do so, thusly, a lot of lost effort will be expanded and you will create more enemies because no one likes to admit they are wrong and no one wants to be told what to do (especially to change).

    In the same way that the homosexuals are having difficulty progressing with their concerns because the underlying desire really is to be accepted by people, hispanics will have to learn to not make that their primary goal. They will have to push beyond that (as difficult as it is) and focus on THIER success despite….

  • Zedd

    Arch Conservative:

    To help you understand…. Simply stated. Margaret is saying that we should make them citizens. That is the point of her article.

    I don’t know if conservatives are proud of your touting yourself as their representative.

    I’d just change your name to Arch and put myself in learning mode. But that is just me.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Thanks, gonzo.

    Economists have some fancy arithmetic that effectively demonstrates how underground labor deflates the hourly wages of above-ground labor, which is why business interests would rather keep the status quo with regard to immigration — and the federal minimum wage, too.

    Immigration is an economic issue that has been politicized into a social issue.

    Looking strictly at the numbers, the solution to the illegal immigration problem is quite simple: if there are 11-12 million workers filling 11-12 million jobs there is not surplus of labor and our immigration policy ought to be adjusted to accommodate those workers.

    Sure, there is that moral question about the fairness of letting 11-12 million people get away with a crime when so many others came here legally, but is it fair that our immigration policies reflect the politics of prejudice rather than the pragmatism of economics?

    Zedd, it’s called puberty, and it happens to all sweet young children, right about the time when they enter middle school.

    Your empirical data does not support the case that there will someday be large numbers of unskilled 7th grade drop-outs who will not be satisfied with their parents’ wages.

    Gangsterism is the direct result of the drug war and has nothing to do with immigration.

    I understand that people are afraid of lots of things and that they almost always believe their fears are valid, but that does not make them rational.

    I don’t focus upon discrimination, which is a social issue. However, those whose economic interests are well-served by the status quo have no trouble finding politicians who are willing to stoke fear and bigotry as a social means to that economic end.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    Margaret…

    thanks, and i knew that some econimists see the same things i notice…

    as for the *answer* being to just make these folks citizens…

    firstly..the 11-12 million number is accurate as we can get…

    BUT…we have no way of stating that they occupy 11-12 million jobs, which is part of your thesis’ axiom

    the numbers coudl be less(saying some are astay at home folks, chronically unemployed, criminals, or children/older folks)

    all that considered, i DO find it VERY objectionable to reward folks who violated out Laws and Borders to enter the country illegally by pushing them in front of th eline past all those who have followed the Rules and have been waiting to enter our Nation legally

    it’s not abotu “prejudice” , it’s about the Law..and fairness to those who desire to becomes a Citizen that they have waited and followed the Rules versus those who deliberately break them

    just my one sixth billionths of the world’s Opinion…

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior?

  • Nancy

    Zedd hits the nail on the head, and that is regarding the quality of the immigrants in question. Most of the illegals, especially, may be hard working, but they are also illiterate, prone to ignore most laws pertaining to basic health & safety standards in favor of continuing to live on the pigsty levels they’re used to, violent – at least, most police actions seem to involve them & their various fracases & tendencies to do whatever they please, regardless of public interest – and riddled with diseases long eradicated in the US but now making a comeback thanks to them.

    They breed like the human vermin they are, spawning hordes of offspring just as ignorant, violent, and disease-riddled as they; they monopolize public facilities for housing, health care, and schools; huge percentages of publically-funded monies for education, hospitals, police, social work, and every other aspect of public facility must now be devoted to them, to the exclusion and deprivation of the LEGAL citizens who pay the tax & must support this infestation, yet cannot avail themselves of their own services because the illegals have used them up.

    You say this is an opinion piece. Fine. My opinion is that the bulk of illegals should be shipped back to where they came from before they ever get any kind of chance to apply to re-enter. Those who employ them should be heavily fined, and/or jailed. Those who support or succor them should be likewise fined and/or jailed, as co-conspiritors to violating the laws. No excuses, no exceptions. Compassion? We can’t afford compassion – not for this level of quality, or lack thereof. Nor are we obligated to provide it. Compassion is the responsibility of the governments of the countries these vermin come from, & which are in fact actively shoving their failures & dregs over our borders, for us to support, while apologists like you wring your hands at the “plight” and hard-luck stories of these scum & whine about compassion & making room for them. Bullshit. Go be compassionate to these lowlifes on your own time and your own dime, not mine. This country and the facilities provided by the legal, taxpaying citizens thereof, either native or legally immigrant, should be for the benefit of themselves ONLY, not for the support of every hard-luck maggot who sneaks in.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    gonzo, I have been struggling with the fairness question for quite some time.

    I also find the notion of rewarding those who broke the law objectionable, but as an advocate of free enterprise, I also have to consider the practicality of that principle and whether the moral lines that have been crossed by these people are as clear and bright as the Mexican border.

    I am currently trying to resolve my cognitive dissonance between justice and prudence by taking into consideration the history and circumstances that lead to the current situation with regard to immigration.

    The troubles we have now have been a long time in coming, and I cannot help but think that if we had implemented realistic immigration reform back in the 1980s, we would not be in this mess and those 11-12 million workers would not have had a law to break.

    That 11-12 million, is of course, an estimate, and it is likely that some of those approximately 11-12 million people are not actually occupying 11-12 million jobs because, realistically speaking, there are children and seniors and those who stay at home to care for them.

    The trouble with black markets is that they operate under the radar, leaving us with no way to accurately account for their true effects upon our economy.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Nancy, you are, of course, entitled to your opinions, while others are entitled to theirs, and since your point of view is so far away from mine, I think it would be best if we could just agree to disagree on this issue.

    But I am curious about one thing, and whether I think “shipping them back” would be the right or wrong thing to do is irrelevant to the logistics.

    I am wondering how, if such a policy was implemented, we would go about finding and rounding up 11-12 million illegal immigrants in order to ship them back from where they came.

    I just want to know how, not why it should or should not be done.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    how?…simplicity itself, Margaret…

    the Military Commisions Act…they woudl be “enemy combatants” and illegal ones at that!

    but i digress…

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    The Military Commissions Act applies to enemy combatants who have been captured.

    I was curious about how 11-12 million people could be captured in the first place.

    Is there any practical way to round them all up at once? Because if the rounding up is done sporadically as people are found her and there, more people will be coming in the meantime, and it never ends — just like outlaw drugs that keep coming into America, regardless of how many multi-ton busts are made by the DEA.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    :::hands Margaret back the leg that came off while he was pulling it:::

    now now..i’m well Aware of the logistical nightmare

    but, just because the Right thing is hard, doesn’t lessen the Fact that it IS the “right thing”, in fact..it makes it all the more needed to be done correctly

    as i’ve statedpreviously, the only Way i can see any progress getting made is to start “supply side”…

    enforce the Law against hiring illegals, remove these jobs that have gone to the black Market, and the market itself will dry up… no “demand” , no “supply”

    it’s not until you do this, and secure the borders properly, thatyou can even begin to address the rest of the problem

    that’s the systemic diagnosis on it all, as far as i am able to Reason it out…

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior?

  • Zedd

    Margaret:

    That is exactly what I was afraid of. I agree with your premise and your original post.

    But when you say that the distructive behavior of the children that I know is simply puberty, it scares the dickens out of me. Perhaps you are not aware of “the hood”. Which when it comes to hispanic immigrants in my city, it is spread all over. Next to EVERY neighborhood is a hispanic neighbor-“hood”.

    Dont make the mistake of fighting for the CAUSE at the expense of the people and the nation. Its great to be right or to win but at what expense. What I am speaking of is not just puberty. THese kids are not finishing middle school. They are dropping off in the 7th grade. That doesn’t work HERE in the United Sates. While the parents of these children may look at that 7th grade education as a lot more than they have, it is ridiculously deficiant for functioning in the U.S.

    In today’s world we are concerned about kids who dont go to collage not kids who dont go to high school. What do we do with these people. Offcourse they will turn to crime. Offcourse they will rely on public services (citizens or not)

    Focus on these very real and practical issues and people wont be so relucted to invite you to get amnesty.

    How many African and Asian immigrants kids are dropping out of school? African kids are blending in. Look at your NFL (meaning they went to collage). African and Asians are in your Engineering and Science departments. They are from developing countries.

    Its not puberty. Its irresponsibility on the part of the parents and people like yourself who are so focused on one issue and turn a blind eye to a larger issue.

    I don’t agree with Nancy’s comments about calling them vermin. I however KNOW why she feels that way.

  • Zedd

    Nancy:

    I am shocked that any woman would refer to another woman’s child as vermin. That is chilling. Hard luck maggot??? Wow. I actually shivered when I read that.

    Words like that obviously come from shear terror on your part but your attitude is part of the problem. Viewing them as non humans will force them to behave further like non-humans. You will get exactly what you are asking for. Whites are in the majority and the most powerful sector BY FAR. How you veiw ANYTHING shapes it.

    We need to put pressure on hour politicians. We make all sorts of trade alliences with boardering countries. We need to start holding these countries accountable for mantaining civility and installing a stablized governance.

    You need make sure that OUR wealthy are not influencing wars and distablization in these countries to benefit them.

    We are not cartoons and this is not a movie. There are no good guys vs bad guys. You want something in your world, you need to role up your sleeves and make it happen.

    You cant kick out 12mil people. YOU CANT. So work on a real solution.

    When the pilgrams took this nation from the Native Americans, they didn’t figure that being the only Whites in the region may cause a challange at some point? Well it has. What did we expect???

  • Zedd

    I very rarely agree with Pat Buchanan but his suggestion for two walls with an area and a road between seems logical…. it seems that it would be easier patrolable.

    I don’t agree with a lot of the other stuff in his latest book off course but that solution seems to.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    for both Margaret and Zedd…

    pondering the issues of the millions already here, and the ethical conundrum that arises from facing that actuality…

    i’ve got a tentative possibility forfurther examination and exploration…

    as i said previously, dry up the black market jobs.., seal the borders as best as american know how can do so…

    as this is put into place, and you are certain that no new influx of illegals can swarm in , you make the announcement that all current illegals can avoid deprtation and criminal charges(ONLY those stemming from arriving illegally) by coming out into the light of day and registering, getting their green card (or new equivalent made just for this temporary purpose)…

    set a deadline for this, beginning and end…those who take advantage are forgiven for the crime of entering the country illegally and go to the back ofthe line for legal immigration…but now they can work legally…covered by the labor laws on the books(including minimum wage requirements, w2’s ..all of it)

    this woudl allow those that want to become citizens, and or do the right thing to do so…

    once the end datehas passed, after you have been cracking down on employers with criminal charges and fines…

    THEN you can go zero tolerance on unregistered illegals…

    thoughts?

  • Zedd

    Margaret:

    I have often wondered if there are public service announcements that can instruct people on proper driving methods or general courtesies. In grocery store isles, the ninos running all over the place opening things, people parking their carts and blocking the way, gathered and just talking. You say excuse me until you just go to the next isle. I WILL NOT GO TO WAL-MART. I will NOT!!!! It becomes a collosal, mortal test of patience. Driving, you just have to take a lot of deep breaths. People have come to say, “don’t even look, you know its a Mexican”. When there is a case of bizzare driving. 99.9% of the time they are right. What is odd is that you look over and the driver is having a good time in his car, totally oblivious that the entire highway is infuriated. He and his very red faced, winking and cat calling (from an obvious recent time of “merriment”, beer cans still in hand) passangers, are clueless as to just how horrible they are driving.

    HELP US ALL. Goodness gracious!!! What is it????

    There are a variety of ways to win the fight for amnesty. Its not just pointing at the government or Americans and saying do XYor Z for us. Its also pointing at the illegalies and saying, do XYZ. There is a price you have to pay if you want to stay here, this is how to be a good neighbor.

    Push for public service announcements. Lets not romanticize this issue and deal with the cold hard realities of it.

    That is logical.

  • Zedd

    Gonzo. I agree with you.

    I think however that the citizenship process should be in steps. I also belive that the children born to those that are in the process of becoming citizens should not become citizens until their parents have completed the process.

    I believe that if the parents do not educate their children, they should be deported and their consideration for citizenship should cease with no oportunity to return for the children and the parents. If the children are in the juvelnille system, they and their parents should be deported.

    Do you know that American citizens in my state can not get public housing if their children don’t go to school and if they get incarsarated? They get booted out!! It makes sense. Why should we pay for that foolishness.

    Its ungrateful to bring your horrible brood to a country and expect it to suffer through crime and economic drain just because you are a bad parent.

  • JR

    Margaret Romao Toigo Stagnant populations, such as those of Japan and some European countries, will face severe retirement crises in the future. Sub-replacement fertility rates are leading to a situation in which there will not be enough young workers to support retirees.

    Talk about pessimism!

    You must realize that the population cannot grow forever. There is only so much physical space on the planet. At some point, be it in 100 years or 100,000 years, we will reach some inexorable limit to growth. Is it inevitable that we will then face a crisis in stagnant or declining population?

    I think not. I think the problems of declining population, and I agree there will be some, can be mitigated or eliminated. And now is as good a time as any to address the issue. There will also be some wonderful benefits to smaller populations, at least for some of us.

    Population growth already threatens my quality of life, and not in some abstract, intangible way like the Dow Jones average or GDP. Every year more wilderness is devoured by development, and I lose hiking/biking trails and I have to travel farther and longer to escape air/noise/light pollution. No it’s not catastrophic, but by no means are things getting better for me.

    Our population is going to continue to grow for several years yet; that’s a given. But it will also inevitably max out and begin to decline, probably in this century. Along with mitigating the effects of growth, we should start thinking about how we are going to face the subsequent decline, rather than using economic fear-mongering to spin unlimited population growth as a Good Thing.

  • Baronius

    Margaret, I agree with much of your article. Nice piece, even the parts I disagree with. (OK, maybe a little heavy-handed in dealing with culturally-motivated opposition, but of course I’d think that because that’s my position.)

    The US can’t aim for Singaporesque levels of population density and retain our status as a net exporter of food, but we can easily support more people. Whatever immigration’s effects may be, its cause is simple: you’re doing better than your neighbors. People would rather be here than where they are. We can admit that without gloating.

    I believe in assimilation, the primacy of the English language, and rigorous enforcement of our laws. I have no problem with a country putting a temporary stop to immigration, although the idea is creepy. We shouldn’t or can’t deport every illegal in the country. Maybe we should just increase our enforcement to the point that it becomes a credible threat, and a deterrent. There might not be a big, splashy solution to the problem – and wouldn’t the politicians hate that – as much as a steady, serious effort.

  • Zedd

    JR

    The issue of subreplacement levels of population growth in Europe has been an issue for quite some time. When I was studying demography in college in the early 90’s this issue was a hot button topic even then. The goal is for each person to replace themselves in as far as offsprings so that we don’t encounter the challanges that have already been pointed out.

  • gonzo marx

    all of this raises the Question…

    what is the “optimal population”??

    now this is going to vary from country to country, from culture to culture…

    but the entire point of population levels good or bad is moot, until and unless you can clarify and prove what the optimal desired number is…

    you have to reach close to max production levels, but before the point of overextension and the diminishing returns from too much population…

    until you have that one figured out, all the assertations about “growth is good” or “there are too many people” one way or the other are silly at best

    just a Thought…

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Logistics was never my strong suit, but I have studied black market economics, and when I read suggestions about demand and/or supply side intervention, I am reminded of the political rhetoric surrounding the drug war and how it should be fought.

    The same basic principles apply, whether the black market is in drugs, guns, or people, because supply and demand are inextricably linked to one another, and humanity cannot change the laws of nature.

    In the case of people, the demand side has the money and clout, while the supply side is poor and powerless, which is a mirror of the drug trade. But in the end, it’s the same sort of hydra — cut off one head, and two more grow back in its place.

    If you go after the demand for undocumented workers by penalizing those who hire illegal immigrants, it’s like fighting the demand for drugs by arresting addicts.

    Those who are “addicted” to cheap, undocumented labor are not some fixed, finite group as businesses open and close in a continuous cycle during which managements change and paradigms shift — just like there are always new addicts, while existing addicts pass in and out of the revolving doors of rehab.

    Going after the supply of undocumented workers is like going after drug dealers, there’s always another one.

    Now some call this position “defeatism,” but its not really about throwing our hands up in despair and accepting the status quo because nothing can be done about black markets, for there is something that can be done — it’s just an unpopular idea with those whose sense of justice is inflamed by the notion of amnesty for law breakers, and those who oppose realistic immigration reform because of “cultural” concerns.

    Indeed, doing the right thing is usually hard, and that fact doesn’t lessen the fact that it is the right thing.

    Doing the right thing is often hard because it involves making sacrifices, which is a hard sell in our “you can have it all” culture.

    In this case the sacrifice is justice in the form of punishing illegal immigrants and the businesses that hire them in violation of written law, and there’s no question that that’s a really big sacrifice.

    The reason why such a sacrifice has become necessary is beginning to inflame my sense of justice more than the idea of how amnesty would be unfair to those who immigrated here legally.

    What Baronius calls “culturally-motivated opposition” (I like that one, BTW) has been shaping our immigration policy for decades.

    The businesses that profit from undocumented labor have been supporting the politicians who use that culturally-motivated interest as a social means to an economic end.

    The results have been the formation and reformation of economically unrealistic immigration policies that please special business interests and culturally-motivated constituencies, but do not serve justice.

    Is it fair that the jobs and the workers have always been here, but we refuse to acknowledge that fact because powerful business interests want their supply of cheap, unprotected labor and do not care how their representatives in government work to maintain the status quo?

    How we got into this moral quagmire we’re in today is the result of many years worth of social and economic injustice, and now there’s no clean and righteous way out of it. Sometimes, life is unfair, and sacrifices need to be made.

    But the momentary pain of that sacrifice will pass, and the end result will bring more justice than we currently have.

  • Zedd

    Gonzo and Margaret

    Take a look at these sources.

    cis.org

    npg.org

    They provide an interesting perspective on US population growth

    I’m still poking holes and will come to a conclusion.

  • Nancy

    Sorry for the delay; I was having to attend to mundania.

    We start, small as it may be, by rounding up & deporting those illegals we ARE able to find. We start by enforcing the damned laws already on the books. Montgomery county, MD deliberately refuses to deport ANY illegals. The schools are crawling with illegals, yet the county makes NO efforts to track them down, apprehend the parents, and ship the entire brood back to their homelands. We start by enforcing the laws against employment of illegals, we start by enforcing laws against giving illegals access to medical, housing, or other benefits paid by legit taxpayers, we start by enforcing laws (if any) against those who give them aid & succor – and if there aren’t any, then creating such laws and then ENFORCING them. If they have no access to housing, public aid, free medical care or schooling, and most of all, employment, they will not stay and they won’t be as tempted to come. If the penalties are high enough, and the payment certain, it will most certainly act as an effective deterrant. I can point with pride to Herndon, VA as an example of a town that has declared zero tolerance on illegals, by enforcing laws against hiring them, allowing them to gather, allowing them to live crowded into single family houses or apartments, etc. Fed up with the idiocy of the previous pro-illegal mayor & council, the town almost unanimously voted them out and an enforcement-prone new mayor & council in. The big thing is, they ENFORCE the laws, and where federal law is lacking, they created and now enforce their own, local laws against illegals. Result: illegals have been flocking OUT of Herndon. The crime rates have dropped, the drains on social welfare programs have dropped, and doubtless future data will also show that disease incidence rates have dropped.

    As for your objection to the label “vermin”, I call ‘em as I see ‘em. Vermin is precisely the correct label for such trash. They are, first and foremost because they are ILLEGAL, criminal – and therefore VERMIN. Frankly they are damned lucky I’m not in charge because I’d make it open season: shoot to kill, with bounties for dead illegals. Now THAT would most certainly inspire them to leave and/or not to come in the first place, wouldn’t it.

  • Nancy

    I missed a previous comment, Zedd: it interests me that you think I’m “afraid”. Afraid of what? Of possible elections fraud being perpetrated by illegals? Yes, certainly. Of people using publically-subsidized facilities & funds that should go to legit residents? Absolutely I am. Of diseases that have been eradicated here in the US becoming prevalent again? Of course. Of increases in crime, violence, and gang activity? I’d be a fool not to be afraid of that. Are you saying none of these fears are valid, that illegals aren’t connected with these problems? On the other hand, if you’re referring to something else, I missed what it is. What else do you think I might fear?

  • gonzo marx

    Margaret…a clear and thoughtful Response…

    i must, however, disAgree with part of your Reasoning

    to wit: illegal Labor is not synonomous with druge, tho i admit both operate under black market dynamics..

    a closer, and more proper Analogy woudl be to Slavery, not drugs

    the Reasoning; outside of hard drugs which cause a chemical dependance (such as heroin), the rest are a conscious Choice the user makes..in the case of illegal Labor…they woudl MUCH rather have legal status and legal jobs, but instead are forced( due to their illegal status) to take sub-standard jobs (in many cases) at sub-standard wages…and always under Threat of beinig turned over to Immigration if the pseudo-slave does nto comply or even complains

    please do note that my Thoughts and commentary do not come from any kind of social bias, but rather from the desirefor fairness towards those who do play by the Rules as well as genuine concern for those operating in pseudo slavery, and their own Rights as human beings to not be exploited unfairly by unlawful business practices

    my proposal in comment #22 takes most of the valid Concerns into account, notice no mention of jail time or anything for those willing to enter into the System as well as a formal Announcement to allow Employers a time period to comply… as well as a clear Path for the illegal immigrant towards a legal status as a green card worker with all the rights and responsibilities involved

    if one does not remove the demand for said black market labor, by making the Cost and Risk of utilizing such to be greater than the *benefits* of knowingly using such Labor… then the Problem will NEVER be resolved, and the black market of Labor, with all the inherant and discussed problems will nto cease

    unlike the drug issue, this is a clear INstance of peoples basic Rights being violated in exploitation for cheap Labor…willingly and knowingly on the part of said Employers… also giving them an unfair advantage in business by breaking the Rules and violating the very spirit of a free Market with fair competition…

    example: if persons A and B both own restaurants, but A follows the Rules fo the Market and the Law, hiring legally..following regulations on food, cleanliness, safety and the like…

    but B hires illegals and cut every corner possible with no regard to the Law…

    shoudl B be rewarded by greater Profits due to lower costs garnered in violation fo the Rules set for the Market?

    or is it, as i Think of it, an unfair Advantage and skewing of the very principles of a free and fair Market?

    does the Right of “B” to run his business supercede the Rights of those illegals who are working outside of the protections and regulations of the Labor Market?

    does the Rights of “B” also supercede the Rights of “A” to fair competition in an open Marketplace as well as th eLabor “A” utilizes legally?

    i guess partof my problem here in accepting the Postulate proposed is that most people who talk about a “free market” seem to usually forget that Labor is part and parcel of said Market, and practices such as the ones under discussion “poison the well” of said Labor in the free Marketplace

    Excelsior?

  • Nancy

    Gonzo, what you’ve cited has actually been an ongoing problem here in the DC area where there are so many embassy staffers. They illegally import others (usually from their own countries) and then hold them as virtual slaves. We’ve had about 7 cases in the past 2 years that have gotten big press about this. In one case, the wife (who was enslaving household workers) fled to her own country; the husband is in jail. They were not only requiring them to work without pay 24/7, but he was using the women as sex slaves as well as ‘renting’ them out to fellow countrymen on the side. This sort of abuse is also common among wealthy Americans who knowingly employ illegals.

  • Zedd

    Nancy: I’m afraid too. Very afraid.

    I was acknowleding your fear and saw your respoonse as a sign of your fear.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    gonzo, I think we’re sort of arriving at the same basic conclusion that some form of amnesty is needed. I think we may differ on the “how” and perhaps the “how many” parts, but not the “what,” and probably not the “why.”

    I think your basic proposal in comment #22 is, in theory, a good one, although the details of the logistics may need to be fleshed out a little more to make it workable in actual practice. Such as how to make the cost and risk of utilizing black market labor greater than the benefits — and how to get our government to enforce those laws, several of which are already on the books. Nancy is right about the lack of enforcement.

    (BTW, I know that you are not motivated by cultural bias, but rather by justice. Would it were that more people would concern themselves with fairness as removing the cultural factor would greatly simplify this whole immigration equation.)

    My use of the analogy between illegal labor and drugs was strictly for purpose of demonstrating black market dynamics, which are the same regardless of the products or services involved.

    The slavery analogy is fitting, too. Because that’s essentially what is being practiced here, even though the workers are nominally paid and they’re not likely to be physically whipped by their “masters” (although they are subjected to psychological whippings).

    So, we have the injustices of exploited and unprotected labor, and the taking of unfair business advantage to the detriment of the free market. And, on top of that, the moral quandary presented by the notion of amnesty.

    As if all that is not enough to complicate things, there are those who want to throw their cultural worries into the mix, too. No thanks, there is already quite enough to contemplate without that nonsense getting in the way of realistic immigration reform.

    I understand the current problems, and how they came about, but I have no solutions to offer other than my vote for some form of amnesty, however it might be realistically implemented.

  • gonzo marx

    well said, Margaret…

    i will differ on the “amnesty” bit..

    it was tried in ’86 by the Reagan administration, and the direct results are an increase form about 2 million illegals to the 12 million or so figure we are talking about now

    a large part of that is directly due to the non-enforcement against employers of those very Laws you spoke of

    i do NOT want to see such repeated, hence my emphasis on enforcing the Laws towards employers who hire illegals

    what i proposed was definately NOT amnesty..which removes the responsibility for violating the Lws..but instead giving legal worker status via green cards to those who want to comply, and setting them at theend of the line…what actual penalty (fines, back taxxes , longer waiting periods..whichever public debate settles on) would be left to our legislators to hammer out

    a subtle difference, i know..but crucial in regards to the fairness and equal application of the Law to all that want to immigrate to our country for the purposes of becoming citizens

    thanks again for the rational Read, Margaret..i share in your Wish to see this looked at openly and honestly

    and hopefully resolved

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    I have been suffering from cognitive dissonance on this issue because I feel that it is very wrong to remove the responsibility for violating the laws, and I also think it is impractical for the US to publicly deny entry to people who come here to work, while not enforcing the existing laws, allowing the black markets to thrive, leaving the employers free to cheat, and the workers unprotected.

    Perhaps a different word is needed here. How about “clemency,” which means leniency and mercy?

    Does a fair and practical solution exist? Would it matter anyway since it appears that the existing laws are not enforced very strictly?

  • Zedd

    Margaret:

    I feel a little offended that you don’t reply to my posts to you.

    This is a complex matter and the cultural issues have a direct affect if not the greatest effect on the public considering amnesty for this population.

    I understand the tendancy for us to feel free to speak negatively about our family members yet not feel at all comfortable with others doing so. However, as it has been the case with the AA community, ignoring the negatives (which EVERYONE sees) gives the impression that you are ignorant or don’t care about your own challanges and are ill equiped to deal with them.

    Ignoring the glaring negatives and communicating only with those who will tell you want you want to hear, will discredit you and your cause.

    As a daughter of immigrants, I am sympathetic to the cause. VERY MUCH SO actually. I have many friends who don’t have their papers so I am watching this issue very closely.

    I would like this matter resolved and don’t see the benefit of engaging in sophistry for the sake of displaying my verbal creativity. I suppose we could do that but I would like to deal with the REAL issue that is preventing an overwhelming reception for the ratification of an amnesty legislation. IT IS CULTURAL. The cultural factors are THE ISSUE. Ignore them and you loose the battle. PR rules the day. You have got to sell your population to the public.

    It doesn’t matter how many wonderful SOULS are waiting at the border for entry. If people feel as if their lives will be changed for the worse if this population merges with the larger population, they will reject them.

  • Zedd

    Gonzo:

    I fear that if the process is too punative (fines, etc), the underground will continue. Speaking of a logistical nightmare, how would those taxes be assessed? We would also end up criminalizing the employers… a mess.

  • Zedd

    Margaret: you said

    “Your empirical data does not support the case that there will someday be large numbers of unskilled 7th grade drop-outs who will not be satisfied with their parents’ wages.”

    Are you serious?? Are you engaging in this dialouge just for the sake of flexing your verbal muscles; are simply displaying your ablility to volley using the english language? What about your statement is rational??

    It is not MY empirical data that supports my statement. It is the current drop out rates for hispanics that is the predictor. As for the types of jobs that this population will be comfortable with, these individuals will have been raised in this culture with the same wage expectations as all other Americans…. do we really have to go through this??

    Invite your leaders to deal with this matter.

    In reference to this election a common slogan is “ITS THE WAR STUPID” remenicent of “ITS THE ECONOMY STUPIT” from a few years back.

    To you Margaret I say “ITS CULTURAL STUPID”. You will not find throngs of people who will be convinced of your cause through a discussion on demographics. Talk about education, crime, burden on public entities and all of those to many people fall under the umbrella of RESPECT, and you will have an ear.

    If you were to tell us that hispanic children have the highest grades, the lowest incendents of crime amoung all ethnic groups, I garauntee that you would not have the resistance that you do right now to welcoming this group.

  • gonzo marx

    Zedd in #40 sez…
    *We would also end up criminalizing the employers… a mess.*

    yes…that’s because they ARE criminals

    i fault the employers MUCH more than i do the immigrants themselves, the Reasons are many…but i’m sure you know them

    Margaret – i grok the dissonance…hence sharing my Thoughts on it all, no other solutions present themselves to the Problem that satisfy…

    objects in mirror are closer than they appear

    Excelsior?

  • Zedd

    Gonzo:

    The employers have been given a nod and a wink by government officials.

  • SHARK

    Coupla comments:

    1) In the medical world, unlimited growth is called “Cancer”.

    2) Reading an essay that trots out data/statistics to give us a warm fuzzy about the arrival of the 300 millionth american is ALMOST as sad/sickening as watching people at the census bureau “celebrate” when their American Odometer clicked over from 2,999,999.

    3) To suggest that we have plenty of room and plenty of resources based on humans per square mile in America is just absurd. Call us when you decide to start blogging from the Mojave Desert, Margaret.

    4) Overpopulation is the ROOT of all evil, and will become THE defining issue of the future, ie environmental destruction/degradation, pandemics, etc.

    5) Margaret sez derisively: “The hand-wringing pessimism of environmentalists and city dwellers who complain that humanity is crowding out and paving over Mother Nature…” and apparently, she’s never been to texas, where we’re losing literally hundreds of square miles a year to concrete strip centers filled with Home Depots — where ya can buy stuff to build more shit. Once it’s gone — ya can’t get it back. [at least on a relatively human, short-term time-scale]

    6) re. Nancy with the “humans as vermin” talk — jeesus!

    Um, You ever actually MEET OR KNOW a Mexican immigrant? And I’m wondering if your name is pronounced “nantzi”?? You sound like an irrational, reactionary redneck Republican.

    xxoo
    S

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Sorry Zedd. I also haven’t gotten back to any of the good people who inquired about population growth in general. Stay tuned. I’ll be back a little later after I get my young-uns off to school.

  • Zedd

    Between 2000 and 2005, 4.1 million immigrant workers arrived from abroad, accounting for 86 percent of the net increase in the total number of employed persons (16 and older), the highest share ever recorded in the United States.

    Of the 4.1 million new immigrant workers, between 1.4 and 2.7 million are estimated to be illegal immigrants. This means that illegal immigrants accounted for up to 56 percent of the net increase in civilian employment in the United States over the past five years.

    Between 2000 and 2005, the number of young (16 to 34) native-born men who were employed declined by 1.7 million; at the same time, the number of new male immigrant workers increased by 1.9 million.

    Multivariate statistical analyses show that the probability of teens and young adults (20-24) being employed was negatively affected by the number of new immigrant workers (legal and illegal) in their state.

    The negative impacts tended to be larger for younger workers, for in-school youth compared to out-of-school youth, and for native-born black and Hispanic males compared to their white counterparts.

    It appears that employers are substituting new immigrant workers for young native-born workers. The estimated sizes of these displacement effects were frequently quite large.

    The increased hiring of new immigrant workers also has been accompanied by important changes in the structure of labor markets and employer-employee relationships. Fewer new workers, especially private-sector wage and salary workers, are ending up on the formal payrolls of employers, where they would be covered by unemployment insurance, health insurance, and worker protections.

  • Zedd

    The previous information is attributed to Andrew Sum, Paul Harrington, and Ishwar Khatiwada in an article for The Center of Immigration Studies

  • Zedd

    Gonzo:

    The mess would be in prosecuting all of them. Offourse this would be a failed attempt, thus making a mockery of the entire endeavor.

  • gonzo marx

    Zedd…as i said before, not doing the right thing merely because it is “a mess” or difficult is NOT any kind of acceptable excuse, imo

    if we only did what was easy, we would all still be living in caves…

    just a Thought

    Excelsior?

  • Zedd

    I have finally had time to look at this article and evaluate its relevance where it comes to the issues that we face with immigration. The holes have been punched and this is my conclusion.

    Margaret sez: the demand side is rich and powerful and the supply side is poor and powerless.

    While I agree that they are poor, they are however quite powerful. The fact that an entire nation is has been shaken in such a tremendous way; from the average man on the street to the most powerful governing bodies, the immigrants have made a commanding impact. Also, The elderly gentleman with a landscaping business in my neighborhood is far from rich and powerful…

    Margaret sez: “As almost nothing else can, immigration-led growth signals the attractiveness of the American economy and polity,”

    This quote was sighted to eluminate the fact that immigration is a good thing. What it actually says is that America is considered to be a great place to live and a lot of people what to live there but it doesn’t say anything about whether there should be an increase in immigration.

    Margaret Sez: Thus the ongoing immigration controversy that actually has very little to do with securing our borders against a surplus of labor, and more to do with fear of the minority-majority state.

    Again, wrong, very wrong on this. You said you are not focusing on discrimination and yet you are. The issue is not cultural prejudice it is intolorence for a disrespect or disregard for American values and culture.

    Margaret suggests “smart growth”: Implementing smart growth principles requires a change to the entire culture of the natural born inhabitants. Why don’t we just suggest that the Mexican government conduct itself in a manner which provides for its own citizens. You cant suggest that an entire culture overturn first because it wont happen also because why should America change to accomodate people who are leaving their country because it is not working for them? How about proposing a change for their country… Is it me??

    Margaret sez: American innovation, a product of our ever-expanding diversity, has brought us prosperity, even through the toughest of times. Our technology has improved our overall quality of life, with advances in medical science that have increased our longevity while decreasing our infant mortality rate, and exponential progress in transportation and telecommunications that has made us smarter and more efficient and productive..

    Again if the immigrants offsprings are not educated and are a heavy burden on public institutions (courts, jails, health and human services, etc) we will not benefit in any way and we will not become “smarter and more efficient and productive”. We will become bottom heavy just like all of the South and Central American countries.

    Your piece is beautifully written it makes good arguments but the problem is with the population that you speak of. Were you writing about Africans or Asians who have, with the exception of a few, been model citizens, your argument may have SOME validity. But because you speak of a population that has proven itself to be burdensome to the American culture, your argument falls flat.

    My suggestion is that the proponants of this movements should seriously pursue an intense PR compaign. Creating a sensativity on the part of the newly arriving hispanic communities as to what is expected of them in this great land of oportunity. This effort should be evident in every sector of the media. Do that and your road will be made much easier. Human nature though isn’t it. Its always easier to point outward than inward but often the solution is quite a a bit more easily reached if we fix ourselves first. Don’t you just hate that?

    While your article may provide an oportunity for light verbal play or a chance for some to proudly display their recently acquired vocubulary; manufacturing dissonnance for the sake of partaking in such folly is understandable, I’ve done it, however the topic at hand is a serious one; one in which the future of this nation hedges on. I suggest that we look at the real issues at play as apossed to romanticizing this matter with themes of rich vs poor, hard work and innovation, challanges with moral delima, etc. Lets get down to the brass tacks on this one folks.

  • Zedd

    Gonzo:

    You have no argument with me on that (doing the right thing). You wont find a better groupy if that is your platform.

    I made my point while considering the reality of our system. The immigration crisis was created by the “pro-business at whatever cost” conservatives. Bush nearly publicly made out with Fox while he was governor of TX. It was clear that he was giving the entire matter an enormous nod and wink. His speeches actually condoned the act saying that we need to find a way to make it OK. He basically said that there was no other way to run the economy. It was then that the small business men became emboldened about their illegal practices.

    Yes it is illegal but this situation was created by our “law makers”(a la child molestors..different topic I know). The climate that has been created by the Republicans for business enabled this chaos to take place.

    With that in mind, wrong as it is, “it aint gonna get fixed like that”. No one will be held accountable. Especially not the precious business owners.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Zedd, I do understand the politics surrounding this issue — too well for may taste sometimes — and how cultural concerns are a big part of public opinion regarding both legal and illegal immigration.

    I know that a lot of people are angry, afraid, apprehensive, etc, (and that’s just the A’s) about the influx of Spanish-speaking people and how their presence here has affected our culture.

    I know that they are concerned about the education and job skill levels of these people and what effect that demographic set may have upon our economy as well as our educated culture.

    However, I do not have the personal constitution for such discussions, especially when some of the participants barely bother to contain their bigotry and snobbery — if they even bother at all — as they pass arbitrary and over-generalized judgments upon their fellow human beings.

    In the meantime, I submit that the current immigration problem will not be reduced or resolved if we cannot get past the culturally-motivated objections to focus upon the economics.

    BTW, I happen to like the idea that more people are speaking Spanish and that there are more Spanish language television and radio stations.

    Although I am madly in love with my native tongue, and I really enjoy flexing my verbal muscles in it, I think that Spanish is a beautiful language and I’m happy to have good reason to work on my fluency.

    I am also quite fond of many other aspects of Hispanic culture, such as its work ethics and family values, as well as the music, art, foods, and clothing.

    You see, another reason why I would rather focus upon the economics is because I have no culturally-motivated objections to 11-12 million immigrants becoming legal, even if I may feel somewhat conflicted about letting them have a free pass for having broken our laws, when so many others immigrated here via the proper, legal channels.

  • Zedd

    Margaret:

    I understand your possition clearly. However I think that you are naive when it comes the evolution of a cultural mindset.

    You said ” In the meantime, I submit that the current immigration problem will not be reduced or resolved if we cannot get past the culturally-motivated objections to focus upon the economics.”

    It wont happen. You wont get 294 Million people to change in order to accomodate 6 million illegal aliens. It just wont happen. It would be nice if we could change public opion on a dime but again, look at the plight of the African Americans. Its been 40 years and you still have opinions which are baseless which govern public and business policy regarding this group. Reason does not prevail when it comes to such issues.

    People want to see graduation rates, grade averages, and such things…. bottom line types of things.

    Its simple Margaret, if I ask you to give me something, the first thing that you will evaluate (conciously or subconciously) is if I deserve it.

    If you ask to live in my home, I will evaluate what sort of guest you would make.

    This one seems simple to me.

  • Zedd

    As for the language issue.

    I like languages too. Spanish is not among my favorite but I there are languages that I simply love. I make it a point to learn how to say thank you in every language possible.

    I’ve mastered the phrase in
    Portugese, Cambodian, Laosian, French, Hindi, Zulu, Vietnamese, Cantonese (my fav),Shona, Italian, Swahili, Spanish, Korean, Japanese, German and more

    As I stated, I am a child of immigrants. I have a second language. I LOVE IT!! I think differently in that language. I think I am so cool because I can speak it.

    There are thousands of languages that are represented in the U.S. I am not sure if Spanish should get such reconition. What about Hindi or Manderine, Swahili, or Italian.

    Big deal, everyone comes from a culture with a different language, if not dialect. Where my parents are from, they speak British English and 8 other languages. All of those languages are represented here in the States because of people who have migrated here (legally or illegally). Big deal.

    If someone from across the world can learn English, why wouldn’t someone from next door not be able to?

    Is it me???

    As for the culture. I love mexican culture. Actually I love and am curious of all cultures. I studied Anthropology and Sociology in my undergrad…. Am thrilled and fascinated by other cultures but not JUST MEXICAN culture.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    SHARK, I understand that pessimism is far more popular and entertaining, and I am truly sorry that you feel saddened and sickened by my optimism, but somebody has to present the positive side, if only for the sake of variety.

    Now, I’m not promoting Pollyannaism here. I am well aware of the fact that we are not 300 million shiny happy people holding hands, that the regulation of development is far more accommodating to economics than environmentalism, and that increasing population density is becoming a problem in some communities, while some other localities are struggling with the economic impact of negative population growth.

    Then there’s crime, disease, poverty, the worsening health care crisis, deficits, etc. — and that’s just a sampling our domestic troubles. Add to that our numerous international struggles, and there’s plenty of good reason for pessimism.

    But it’s not all doom and gloom, there is always some good news among the bad, and we are better off today than we ever were in the past — and nobody can prove that we are not.

    There are plenty of doomsayers and crepehangers out there, wringing their hands and bemoaning the dire state of our nation, and I think the occasional pointing out of silver linings is necessary so that we don’t lose our balance.

    BTW, did anyone take note of the movies I chose for the Amazon.com ads? Most of them were made in the 1970s, but they take place around the turn of the 21st century, which did not turn out to be nearly as dreadful as it was depicted in those celluloid classics. (Anachronisms aside, Soylent Green remains one of my favorite science fiction epics.)

  • nugget

    Zedd: Though I don’t have time to comment on issues such as these at length, I am very impressed with the level of thoughtful passion you put into them. I think you give a realist’s perspective. Carry on.

  • troll

    the human infestation will sink or swim together…no border fence will protect anyone from the overpopulating horde

    come one and all I say as I feebly try to learn the Spanish language – again

    I look forward to the inevitable ‘browning’ of America not only because I don’t care particularly for my fellow white folk and our racist culture but additionally because…latino girls are cute

  • JR

    SHARK: Call us when you decide to start blogging from the Mojave Desert, Margaret.

    How do you know she isn’t already?

  • SHARK

    Coupla more random Scraps for Thought:

    Here in texas (and I would venture to guess this includes most of the southwestern US), the upcoming water shortage is gonna make the “oil crisis” look like a picnic.

    Marg sez: “I think the occasional pointing out of silver linings is necessary so that we don’t lose our balance”

    We’ve LOST OUR BALANCE. About thirty years ago. That’s the fucking point.

    Add to the list of pessimistic/realistic predictions for the immediate future:
    resource shortages,
    blackouts/brownouts,
    social contract service budgets stretched to the breaking point,
    viral pandemics, < --{evolution's population control/God's Cosmic Flyswatter!!!}
    birth defects,
    asthma epidemics, etc. etc.

    SHARK predicts China will be the canary in the coal mine for industrialized, overpopulating Humanity; let’s see how they do in the next 10 years.

    Personal Anecdote Warning:
    I used to live one block from the [rural] country; in a matter of 2 years, it now takes me a twenty minute drive to see a field of grass. My area (D/FW texas) IS GROWING EXPONENTIALLY.

    —Misc Questions for “Realist” Pollyanna’s with lot of data, good research and writing skills:

    When does it stop?

    At what point do we say there are too many people?

    When is enough enough?

    I would argue that quality of life is already beginning to suffer; at least mine is.

    Que puedo hascer? No tengo deniro.

  • troll

    shit…we’re fucked – !

  • troll

    so Shark – does this all mean that we don’t have to worry too much about those damned Muslim terrorists – ?

    just looking for the silver lining

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Aw Shark,

    Just come out here. It’s quiet, no noise (except for the occasional jet breaking the sound barrier, and helicopter flying nearby and the muezzin from the mosque calling the arabs to prayer). You can look out of my window and see the mountains of Samaria, the city of Ariel in the distance. You can ride a bullet proof bus to ‘Ofrá and hang out at the restaurant there, or go all the way to Jerusalem (for the equivalent of $2.55 one way) and eat in a restaurant there. Getting good pork chops may be a problem though…

    Just watch out for the dogshit and the uneven sidewalks…

    Oh by the way, did I mention that the population density in Israel is 900 people per square mile?

  • Zedd

    The dropout rate by race is: For Hispanics its 24%, AA’s 12%, Whites 7%, and Asians 4%.

    White kids make up 60% of the population and 41% of the dropouts.

    Hispanics make up 17% of the student population and 40% of the dropouts

    Blacks (AAs) make up 14% of the student population and 17% of the dropouts

    Asians make up 4.1 of the student popultion and 1.4% of the dropouts

  • troll

    why do you think that is – ?

  • http://mrbounce.blogspot.com/ Mistress La Spliffe

    What’s your point, Zedd? That the United States should let in fewer Hispanics and more Asians? Because you’ll have to let SOME people in, unless you want to change your whole measure of economic success and growth.

    Of course, then the better-educated Asians might take all the sweet jobs, instead of the lesser educated Hispanics taking the crap jobs, which means Whitey might not even be able to afford a computer to kvetch on about the inevitable cultural and economic realities changing his/her world anymore, even though he/she will have a hell of a lot more to kvetch about.

    Or were you just mentioning those numbers with no point at all?

  • JR

    Mistress La Spliffe: Because you’ll have to let SOME people in, unless you want to change your whole measure of economic success and growth.

    Yes! That is exactly what I want to do – change our measure of economic success and growth. The current measurement does not accurately reflect my quality of life.

    (Personally, I don’t care so much about who lives here, just so long as there are fewer of them.)

  • http://mrbounce.blogspot.com/ Mistress La Spliffe

    Yeah, JR, me too. I feel it will be a difficult thing in the United States because of its profoundly unrepresentative government’s involvement with industry groups that really don’t want such measures to be changed and that really don’t want a halt to an influx of people who want to go the United States and work.

    In the meantime, Americans who focus on the Hispanics who come like they’re the problem have been distracted from the central issue, so when Zedd quoted those stats like they meant something in this context . . . well, it’s dim.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    JR, I enjoyed that Digital Desert web site, but I’m blogging from the Sunshine State, where we have 15,982,378 people, with 296 people per square mile.

    Here in my home county, Pinellas, we have 3,292 people per square mile, which makes us the most densely populated county in the Great State of Florida. And I don’t think that figure includes the millions of tourists who come here from around the world to enjoy our beaches and resorts, and spend lots of money at our attractions, stores, and restaurants.

    I do indeed realize that our population cannot grow forever and that there is only so much space on Earth.

    We might just reach our limit some day, but the chances of that grim scenario becoming reality must be weighed against the chances of the even gloomier prediction, of a future natural or manmade catastrophe that could reduce humanity’s numbers by the billions, coming to pass.

    I stand by my assertion that growth is a Good Thing. However, I also believe that all that good growth needs to be planned and designed more efficiently in the future so that we can maximize land use and minimize sprawl.

    As far as numbers go, we do not really have a population problem here, but we do have a population distribution problem.

    Have you ever flown across the U.S. and looked down? There’s nothing but wide open spaces, with a few urban areas here and there. At night, the coasts are solid with bright, twinkling lights, but the middle — with the exception of the Great Lakes region — is mostly pitch black.

    We humans do not have control over nature — not even our own — but we are highly adaptive creatures, and we’re getting smarter all the time, so there is reason to be confident that we will be able to mitigate the negative effects of our growth while magnifying the positive ones.

  • Zedd

    La Spliffe

    Read my posts. I think my point is clear

  • Zedd

    Nugget, Gracias!

    If I stray off course, straighten me out.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy:

    You are a country of immigrants aren’t you?

  • http://mrbounce.blogspot.com/ Mistress La Spliffe

    Zedd, your point is lost in the face of the fact that while people think they “want to see graduation rates, grade averages, and such things…. bottom line types of things” in terms of how much they like immigrants, they don’t. And neither does your administation or industries – at least in the way you’d like them too.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Yes Zedd. Israel, like America, is a country filled with immigrants. About one sixth of the population is either born in Russia or has parents born there so they speak Russian as a first languaage at home. And you can always tell a Russian from the way his Hebrew is accented. The same usually is true with an English speaker, though I myself did my damndest to rid myself of an American accent in speaking Hebrew.

    Naturally, I’ve had to learn Hebrew, but I’ve picked up a lot of Russian, too. (Ya nye govoryú po Russkiy…). What is really interesting for me is to listen to the Ethiopian Jews talking Hebrew, particularly when it is their native language. This is because I’ve always associated black people with the southern accented English that they usually have had (in my experience). It is normal, on a Jerusalem city bus to hear at leat four or five languages in addition to Hebrew.

    Sorry, I’m burbling on with pleasuree. I love this country.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy: What percent would you say are children of immigrants

  • Zedd

    Exerpts from prepared statement of Sharon McCloe Stein Executive Director, Negative Population Growth.

    Consider the impact of population growth on the energy crisis. Between 1970 and 1990, when numerous conservation and efficiency measures were enacted, per capita energy consumption barely increased. But, because the U.S. population continued to grow during this period, total energy consumption increased by 36%, with more than 90% of this increase in energy consumption due entirely to population growth.

    The nation’s anti-sprawl, water conservation, and environmental protection priorities cannot be reconciled with the new infrastructure and resource consumption that continued growth will require. Unless we address population growth, our net environmental gains will be reduced (or even reversed) by the demands imposed by our growing population. If the population increases, as the Census Bureau projects, to 404 million by 2050, how will our current environmental victories survive?

    Quality of life:
    The problems associated with continued population growth reach beyond the environment to basic quality of life: overcrowded schools, urban sprawl, increased traffic congestion, and higher costs of living.

    As an area gets more populated, its infrastructure starts straining under the weight of all the new residents who must be served. Police forces, roads, and schools no longer satisfy the demands of a growing population. Farmland and forests are sacrificed to strip malls and housing developments. More and more schools, sanitary systems, roads, libraries, and water services must be built. Meanwhile, congestion increases, pollution rises, and school overcrowding goes up.

    As the county commission chairman of Barrow County, Georgia, which has experienced a 55 percent growth rate in the last decade, noted, “[Population growth] doesn’t increase the tax base as much as it increases the need for services in that area.”

    Education:
    In the last decade, school enrollments have increased by 16 percent, an increase that the Census Bureau attributes in large part to the immigration influx. Department of Education officials say that by 2100, the nation’s schools will have to find room for 94 million students–nearly double the number of school-age children, ages five to 17, the nation has now.

    How will our schools absorb the coming population increase, when already they are struggling to meet the needs of existing students? Across the country, students are attending classes in portable classrooms and eating lunch in staggered schedules starting as early as 10:30 to ease the strain on crowded cafeterias. In Georgia, a recent law requires schools to cut the class sizes over the next few years, but principals report that they simply don’t have the space to do it. There are too many students for the available classrooms. More than 14,900 new classrooms are needed. In Florida, schools are so overcrowded that legislators are considering paying students to go to private schools instead of public ones. In Kansas City, one class meets in what used to be a restroom.

    Rather than being used to improve the quality of education for current students, communities are forced to spend their limited tax dollars to build new schools to accommodate growth

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Que usted puede qué, SHARK? Mi español no es bueno, pero yo estudio. Qué está el “hascer?”

    In other words, what does “hascer” mean? I cannot find it in my Spanish dictionary. Is it slang? I am merely curious as I am trying to improve my Spanish.

    What happened 30 years ago to make us lose our balance?

    Your grim predictions for the immediate future could very well come to pass.

    I know for a fact that our power grid is outdated (I am being kind in my use of that word) and that blackouts and brownouts could become quite frequent and troublesome in the future if it is not updated.

    But while were getting into the business of predicting the future, is it not also possible that we will find a way to deal with resource shortages, that the budgetary planning of social services will be streamlined, or that viral pandemics, birth defects, and asthma will be mitigated by medical science — as they already have been to some extent?

    I think you are absolutely right about China being “the canary in the coal mine.” Whatever happens there in the next few decades will serve as a warning — or maybe an example — for our expanding numbers.

    “When does it stop?”

    Who knows? Perhaps when “evolution’s population control/God’s Cosmic Flyswatter” causes us to worry about extinction, instead of overpopulation.

    “At what point do we say there are too many people?”

    I don’t know. However, the scary thing about that proposition is not so much the reaching of some “magic number,” but rather the possible “solutions” that might be implemented.

    “I would argue that quality of life is already beginning to suffer; at least mine is.”

    Well, mine is not. Perhaps we are both projecting a bit, albeit from opposite sides of the spectrum.

    And with that, I must depart for now because I have to feed my hungry brood.

  • troll

    like you said in the 1st place…soylent green

  • Zedd

    Take a look at Lou Dobbs. They are discussing this very issue in a town meeting in San Antonio.

  • Zedd

    Total cost to illegals is 90 billion dollars a year to tax payers. 50% of illegals (5.5 million people) are high school drop outs. The net cost of those individuals over a lifetime will be 2 trillion dollars. It is impossible for those individuals to contribute into the tax system because they will be low wage earners so they will essentially be a drain on our system.

    What say yea about those econmic figures.

    Its projected that 3million illegal aliens crossed our boarders from Mexico last year.

    70% of criminal illegals who were arrested Las Angelos county were arrested four more times($$$)

  • Zedd

    Bear Sterns reports that many immigrants particularly those with immediate families in their native country provide and average of $1400 to $1500 per year through money transfers. Remittance from the US to Mexico have tripled to 13BILLION between 1995 and 2003. For Mexico, this is an important source of funds that has surpassed foreign direct investments and tourism receipts in 2003 and is second only to petroleum export revenues.

    Margaret & Gonzo where are you.

    I finally get going and you guys disapear.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Undereducated low wage earners who perform tasks that don’t require very much intellectual skill are not a burden upon society; they are an essential part of its very foundation!

    How do citizens of a free and democratic country dare to pass such judgments against the people who do the sort of work that hardly anyone notices until it is not done?

    If we Americans mean to strive for excellence in our educational standards, then everyone who wants an education should get one. But education is not something that can be forced upon people who don’t want it.

    (That’s not related to the idea of forcing young children to go to school until they attain a minimum standard of functional literacy.)

    Hierarchical societies are a fact of human nature because the implementation of a division of labor is essential to the survival of any human society, no matter its size.

    It’s instinctive for us to break into castes, but we also have the ability to reason and feel compassion, so we invented the concept of democracy, a system of government in which all people, regardless of the socioeconomic status in to which they were born (or currently reside due to education, actions, decisions, luck, etc), are politically equal and afforded the same civil rights.

    As advanced and lofty as that notion is, however, a pragmatic division of labor remains necessary to the survival of any civilized society.

    In other words, somebody has to clean the mess, cook the food, pick the fruits and vegetables, dig the holes and ditches, carry the heavy and/or awkward things, scrub the floors and toilets, mow the grass, whack the weeds, wash the dishes and the windows, skim the pool, bus the tables, haul out the trash, and lend a helping, almost invisible, hand wherever and whenever it is needed so that all the other labor divisions can get their jobs done, too.

  • gonzo marx

    and to add to what Margaret just posted…

    the Individuals who do these tasks should be in the System, and protected by our Laws and statutes, rather than exploited, abused and hidden in the black market…

    no matter what the Argument, the fact remains that unless you remove the incentives from the employers to hire and exploit such workers, you will never stop the practice…or the bad nasty shit that comes with it

    for Zedd…
    i am never *gone*… just quiet sometimes, especially when i have said all i think there is to say

    the first paragraph of this comment is just an unneeded expansion on what i have already stated in this Thread

    so to close..i can easily agree that there is a division of Labor, and that this stratifies according to capabilities and task requirements

    but my Thought had always been that one of the goals of our Society and System is to continuously raise the minimum standards of our people’s education and potential via our own hard Work

    a *slave* underclass spits in the Face of our Principles… and an unearned jumping of the line for people who have violated our Law over those who sought to join U.S. by following our Law, pisses on exactly what makes us who we are…

    our Rule of Law

    nuff said…

    Excelsior?

  • JR

    SHARK: I would argue that quality of life is already beginning to suffer; at least mine is.

    Margaret Romao Toigo: Well, mine is not. Perhaps we are both projecting a bit, albeit from opposite sides of the spectrum.

    More like you just thrive in different environments. The fact that you can live in Florida proves that your needs are very different than mine. When I lived in the East I felt like I was in exile, deprived of the mountains and open space I value more than “civilization” or “wealth”. I can respect that you prefer living in a more artificial (not to mention wet) environment; I think it’s a Good Thing that people have the choice. The problem here is that your environment is overruning mine, and that is a very Bad Thing for me.

    By the way, where do you plan to move when Pinellas County is under water?

  • troll

    (side track – if we are going to talk grand social theory I’d say that a practical division of labor does not in and of itself require a hierarchical society

    what’s needed is a reevaluation of our notions about the value of labor based on an understanding of necessity

    why should teachers control less wealth than doctors or more than field hands – we cannot do without any of them)

  • JR

    Within thirty years, all those jobs can be done by machines.

  • gonzo marx

    a good point to raise, JR

    take much of the farming labor for a second…

    there ARE machine to harvest many crops, why not others? well, some just cannot be done other than by hand..and the rest?

    it’s cheaper to hire illegals than to engineer and manufacture the machines

    another instance of the black market labor fucking up the free market system

    Excelsior?

  • troll

    JR – true…and soon machines will design and build themselves for all purposes…then we all can become redundant creatures of leisure

    alternate response

    …and then we’ll find other necessary work to do

  • Zedd

    Margaret sez: “In other words, somebody has to clean the mess, cook the food, pick the fruits and vegetables, dig the holes and ditches, carry the heavy and/or awkward things, scrub the floors and toilets, mow the grass, whack the weeds, wash the dishes and the windows, skim the pool, bus the tables, haul out the trash, and lend a helping, almost invisible, hand wherever and whenever it is needed so that all the other labor divisions can get their jobs done, too.”

    Some body has BEEN doing those things all of these years. Young peoples’ employment rates have decreased by the number of illegal workers. Young black male incarceration rates have increased in correlation to the increase rates of illegal employees. That argument is rubish. Do you know that Mexican land owners who hire Guatamalens use the same argument because Mexicans want better wages than the illegals of Mexico are willing to take?

  • Zedd

    Gonzo sez:ref to illegals “rather than exploited, abused and hidden in the black market…”. He later refers to them as slaves.

    That is insulting to the memory of the real slaves of our history don’t you think?

    This individuals come by choice over and over again. They are not abused. No one pays money and risks life and limb to be abused. What is taking place between the small business owners and the illegals is a contract. Both parties are in full complience and are aware to the remifications of their undertaking.

    What needs to happen is that we need to hold MEXICO accountable for finally establishing a truly democratic system that is conducive to a progressive economy.

  • Zedd

    Margaret: It’s against the law in most states (hopefully all) not to educate your child. It is considered as neglect or abuse (because it is). Its like never potty training your child or teaching them how to walk. It is counter productive to thier being able to function fully in OUR society AND they will be a burden to the rest of us.

  • Zedd

    Gonzo I take it that you are no where near AZ, TX, CA, NV, NM, etc.

  • Zedd

    Gonzo sez: “and an unearned jumping of the line for people who have violated our Law over those who sought to join U.S. by following our Law, pisses on exactly what makes us who we are…

    our Rule of Law”

    Not nuff said but correctly stated. Not only OUR rule of law but all civilized society are governed by a set of principles or laws, if they are ignored in order to meet whatever “need” the entire relevance of the structure is questioned.

    Knowing politicians, especially our current version of republicans, I have come to expect fowl play when a drastic NEED arises that didn’t exist previously under the same circumstances. The overwhelming need for cheap labor is manufactured. There is a great deal of unemployment among the poor in our society. The same people who once performed the very tasks that are tagged undesireable to Americans. What is undesirable are the WAGES. Our leaders are liars and they use smoke and mirrors. The truth is they succeed because they can find a group who needs for their lies to be true, so they prevail, as they have in this debuckle. Unfortunately there is always a day of reckoning….. We the middle class always pay.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    gonzo, indeed, they should be protected, rather than exploited, abused and hidden in the black market, where they effectively become slaves by today’s standards — if not by those of the pre-Civil War days.

    There are already laws on the books that penalize employers who hire and exploit illegal immigrant workers. It is not actually a matter of policy, but enforcement.

    Those who are supposed to enforce the laws look the other way, and they get away with it partly because of the politics of culturally-motivated opposition to increasing the number of immigrants who are allowed to live and work here legally (especially if they hail from Mexico or some other Spanish-speaking country) and partly because of the traditional culture of corruption that surrounds and maintains all black markets.

    The largest part of it is likely a matter of economics. I think the reason why we do not hear more news about how one company unfairly and unlawfully got the edge over the competition and was rightfully convicted and punished is because, in certain industries such as agriculture, almost all of them employ undocumented workers, so hardly anyone feels cheated.

    And why shouldn’t they keep business as usual, when the government gives them a wink and a nod, while our politicians appeal to arbitrary prejudices as a distraction from their lack of real action? (The war on drugs is at least pretended to be fought for some idealistic vision of a drug-free society.)

    That’s the real outrage here and the main reason why realistic immigration reform is needed so badly now. And because whatever it is will need to be enforced, it will also need to be enforceable.

    JR, I’m at 32 feet above sea level here. While it is true that Florida is sinking and shrinking, I will have been dead for several centuries by the time Pinellas County is under water.

    Ever since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, humanity has dreamed of someday having machines to do all of its drudgery, thereby negating the need for any human being to have to do menial work, but the best we have come up with thus far are improvements upon the machines that make common tasks easier for people to perform.

    troll, perhaps it is because a practical division of labor does not require a hierarchical society that we are able to manifest democratic principles to the extent that we have thus far.

    “…soon machines will design and build themselves…”

    Shades of the Terminator, or more recently, The Matrix.

    Zedd, wages are a matter of what the market will bear. Since the immigration laws are not strictly enforced, the black market becomes a factor in the equations of that market. It has nothing to do with the pseudoscientific concept of “race.”

    I am well aware of the compulsory education laws, but I would nonetheless make my children go to school even if no such laws existed as I believe that literacy is a right.

    Why all the concern about people becoming a burden upon society?

    Aside from the economic value of work, what makes one person’s contribution to society more important or valuable than another’s?

    Besides the criminals who violate the rights of others, what makes one person more of a burden upon society than another?

  • Zedd

    Margaret: Thank you for responding

    You said: Zedd, wages are a matter of what the market will bear. Since the immigration laws are not strictly enforced, the black market becomes a factor in the equations of that market. It has nothing to do with the pseudoscientific concept of “race.”

    While the racial classifications offer a false parameters, the social impact of those classifications is very real. Young Black males are bearing the burden economically for jobs lost due to immigration. The old argument of “these are jobs that Americans wont do” is a lie. Americans have BEEN doing these jobs.

    Americans dont do them for $3 an hour because its against the law to pay people below minimum wage. If the issue was simply that no one wanted these jobs, the issue of low wages for illegals would be mute. But off course the motivation is not lack of a work force, its wages. They don’t want to pay.

    You said “Why all the concern about people becoming a burden upon society?”

    I’m a tax payer. My taxes went up so drastically last year, I was certain that there was an error. I nearly fainted then cried when it was confirmed that indeed the school tax shot up. They are having to buy portables and build new schools. As soon as they build one, it fills up.

    This same population is heavily reliant on free lunches, school bus transportation, etc.

    Should I not express concern??